The Remus Experiment

[grasslander]

I have the full Remus on mine, looks and sounds great after 26,000 miles.

 

Ok Dean, you've convinced me that the Remus is the way to go. I'm tired of the bulbous look of the stock can on my gorgeous silver/blue ST. I like the Remus look on your ST. You've convinced me of the quality of the unit (not to say the Staintune, etc is bad). But it seems to have a good chance of doing more than just look good, without being to DB challenged (especially the Revolution).

 

My 2005 ST just had the 6k service.

So... I'm going to do an experiment. Tomorrow morning I'm going to get a baseline dyno on a calibrated and certified Dynamometer. If I can find my dang DB meter I'll do a 90 degree check at 4' I think that's what the AMA uses. Due to cash flow, I'll do the Revolution Ti slip on first. Re-test with both core configurations. Then probably the headers, test again both cores. Be patient this will take more than a week...

 

Results to follow! Anybody want to suggest a Remus source for a best buy? I'm not mechanically challenged so an installer is not required.

 

Man I love this machine. Hey I like the seat. Wilber's or Olhins in about 12k

 

I'm going to start a new thread on this. First test for stock performance will be today. As has been stated, the best power increase will probably come from the Remus head pipe. I will likely get there. If the tests show a lacking fuel map - I will definetly look to a chipping device. The operator of the dyno is an approved Dynojet tuning center.

 

Question: It has been stated in other threads that the BWM motronic will compensate and adjust the fuel map as long as the stock filter is in use. I don't plan to change to a high flow filter. Anybody want to guess how much running time would be required for the computer to adapt? 30 minutes or 30 days?

 

More to folow

[Yankee_Dog]

You wont get the most bang for your buck without a high flow air filter. You need a better flowing intake to take full advantage of that better flowing exhaust. Otherwise you are likely to get nothing but a better sounding pipe.

 

Not that a better sounding pipe is a bad thing.

 

I await the results with anticipation.

 

yankee Dog

[grasslander]

Step 1 is complete.

 

100.70 max HP and 78.29 max Torque bone stock at the 40psi rear wheel!

 

Below is the Dyno chart from the first run this morning. Kent the dyno tech was impressed with the number from this 110HP 85lb/ft at crank machine. Seems only about a 10% drive line loss. He tells me most all Harleys they test loose more like 15% through the primary and chain/belt (mainly the primary).

 

db readings - out doors - no saddlebags at 90 degrees and four feet away = 84 to 85db.

 

Doyle R1200ST chart 11-17-06

Kent Clawson, certified dyno tech, Topeka Harley Davidson

Kent is pumped for this BMW project. He usually sorts out Harleys with straight pipes to get them to run again or the occasional GXR sport bike.

 

Notice the stock fuel map 4-5k tuned for mpg's ad above 5k goes more towards performance. I also understand why it feels like a kick at around 6k with the torque/HP boost in that range.

[BiggerTwin]

Question: It has been stated in other threads that the BWM motronic will compensate and adjust the fuel map as long as the stock filter is in use...Anybody want to guess how much running time would be required for the computer to adapt? 30 minutes or 30 days?

My dealer has a lot of experience with Remus and tells me the RT is fine immediately. He said the HP2 took some time to adapt. Sorry I don't have specific info on the ST but I assume it should be very quick since he only mentioned the HP2 as taking "some time".

 

Alan

[kopov260]

Great experiment. I have just the Remus Revolution slip-on on my ST. I am wondering if I gained any HP. I am still kinda deciding if I need to change the headers.

[Highway41]

This should be good! Thanks much.

Bill

[Deans BMW]

Your stock RWHP reading is very close to what mine read. You will find that the Motronic will compensate and also you will find that any RWHP gains will come mainly from replacing the entire system rather than just the can.

 

You are doing this properly, your next run should be with just the can replaced and then next with the complete Remus system. The RT and ST motors are the same so RT riders should see similar results. The results on the R1200GS are greater.

[vfrman]

I'm very curious to see how the Remus full system compares to the full Laser system.

 

The gains from the Laser system are pretty impressive.

 

http://www.omexperformanceusa.com./images/bmw/87.7017.jpg

[Boffin]

The gains from the Laser system are pretty impressive.

 

Yeah, a whole 4hp.

 

Andy

[grasslander]

BTW the recent 6k tune was done by Engle Motors in KCMO.

 

I was there this afternoon and what the heck - ordered the COMPLETE Remus Revolution system (Header + connector/Ti can) instead of just the slip on. It'll probably be here by next weekend. This will speed the testing process a bit. I'll likely set an appointment with Topeka Harley Davidson for step 2 (slip on tests) and step 3 (full system tests) for the week ending 12-01-06.

[vfrman]

Yeah, a whole 4hp.

-------------------------------

 

 

That's not how I read it. You were looking at the sport slip-on numbers. It's about 7hp with the down pipe and slip-on. The full system.

 

While 7hp isn't amazing, if you look at the power curve, it's smoothed out considerably, and much more linear.

[Boffin]

Yeah, a whole 4hp.

-------------------------------

 

 

That's not how I read it. You were looking at the sport slip-on numbers. It's about 7hp with the down pipe and slip-on. The full system.

 

While 7hp isn't amazing, if you look at the power curve, it's smoothed out considerably, and much more linear.

 

The header pipes do get rid of the dips low-down but the power gain is probably less noticable than the weight loss.

I question if you would really see any real improvement on the road but then it's your money not mine.

 

Andy

[BiggerTwin]

the power gain is probably less noticable than the weight loss

I agree. My dealer indicated the weight loss from the full system is significant. From my experience, pipes alone won't give you noticeable power increases. You need to increase air going into the motor as well as the exhaust going out if you want to see more power. I am getting the full system primarily for sound and aesthetics. The lighter weight is an added bonus but I am not expecting a lot more power.

 

Alan

[Warren_H]

I've been thinking about getting a full system too. Thanks for posting your results.

 

Apples vs. Oranges Hi-jack follows:

Over at lxforums.com they dyno tested various intakes and cat-back exhaust systems on the V8 Hemi. Executive Summary: Dodge/Chrysler engineers got it right; almost no gain from the intakes/exhausts that were advertised to add 20hp. They went on to test headers and hi-flow cats I don't recall the gains if any.

[Yankee_Dog]

...........

 

While 7hp isn't amazing, if you look at the power curve, it's smoothed out considerably, and much more linear.

 

I think that smooth power delivery is as important if not more so than HP gain. Getting rid of those nasty dips is worth putting a pipe on all by itself.

 

Yankee Dog

[vfrman]

...........

I think that smooth power delivery is as important if not more so than HP gain. Getting rid of those nasty dips is worth putting a pipe on all by itself.

 

Most definitely!

 

I'm also wondering how much more it would help by fitting a K&N filter.

[black99S]

...........

While 7hp isn't amazing, if you look at the power curve, it's smoothed out considerably, and much more linear.

I think that smooth power delivery is as important if not more so than HP gain. Getting rid of those nasty dips is worth putting a pipe on all by itself. Yankee Dog

The 92db(A) noise level ain't worth it in my opinion - 5db(A) increase over the stock 87db(A). When I'm hot-on-the-dog I'm usually running 5500-8000 revs anyway. The dips look worse on a graph than you feel through your but.

Quiet pipes ROCK!

[Yankee_Dog]

.....I'm also wondering how much more it would help by fitting a K&N filter.

 

From my experience it will make a big difference. You cant get the most out a freer flowing exhaust unless you have a freer flowing air intake. You will also have to remap to get the fuel right but that is what is so nice in this situation. The bike does it by itself.

 

As for the loudness. I agree about quiet pipes on my RT. But on my Trumpet I am lusting for a bit more noise.

 

yankee Dog

[vfrman]

The 92db(A) noise level ain't worth it in my opinion -

 

I agree that loud pipes on a touring bike such as the RT is pointless, especially since the sound of these bikes isn't particularly sexy.

 

The great thing about the Laser, Staintune and Remus exhausts is that they all have inserts to keep them quiet.

[black99S]

The 92db(A) noise level ain't worth it in my opinion -

 

I agree that loud pipes on a touring bike such as the RT is pointless, especially since the sound of these bikes isn't particularly sexy.

 

The great thing about the Laser, Staintune and Remus exhausts is that they all have inserts to keep them quiet.

Yeah, but plug up the noise and the power gain goes away. So why bother?

[bakerzdosen]

Yeah, but plug up the noise and the power gain goes away. So why bother?

Well, I've done stupider things in the name of vanity.

 

A new slip-on can improve how the bike looks and (to a certain extent) sounds. Beyond that, I agree.

[vfrman]

Yeah, but plug up the noise and the power gain goes away. So why bother?

 

According to Laser, the advantage of their pipe is that you don't lose any gains by fitting the insert.

 

I'm not sure if the same is true for Stainetune or Remus.

[BMWSTeve]

MY butt dyno didn't register a performance change when I removed the baffle from my Remus Revolution, just a bit raspier at 5K rpm+.

[vfrman]

MY butt dyno didn't register a performance change when I removed the baffle from my Remus Revolution, just a bit raspier at 5K rpm+.

 

Well there you have it...

 

It seems changing out the stock pipe actually is an advantage, rather than a bother.

 

[q2bruiser]

MY butt dyno didn't register a performance change when I removed the baffle from my Remus Revolution, just a bit raspier at 5K rpm+.

 

I've had the full Revolution system with carbon can for about 7 months now. I've tried it with the plug in and the plug out. Out is just too loud for me with no experienced gains.

[black99S]

MY butt dyno didn't register a performance change when I removed the baffle from my Remus Revolution, just a bit raspier at 5K rpm+.

I've had the full Revolution system with carbon can for about 7 months now. I've tried it with the plug in and the plug out. Out is just too loud for me with no experienced gains.

So in the end, power gains come with excessive noise. For your $$$ you really only get a different look, less weight and different sound - no useful power unless you like noise.

And to each - your own opinion on pipe esthetics, quality of sound and value for money. For me I'll stick with the stock pipe. Been there before with Z-Technik on R11S - was a waste of money.

[q2bruiser]

So in the end, power gains come with excessive noise. For your $$$ you really only get a different look, less weight and different sound - no useful power unless you like noise.

And to each - your own opinion on pipe esthetics, quality of sound and value for money. For me I'll stick with the stock pipe. Been there before with Z-Technik on R11S - was a waste of money.

 

I didn't say there was no increase in power ... there is ... very noticeable. What I said was I experienced no difference in performance with the plug in or out, they were the same except with the plug out is too loud for me.

 

Two main things I experienced:

 

1. The system smoothed out the power delivery and yes, it revs quicker now with more kick in the pants.

 

2. Lost about 18 pounds and the difference is most noticeable.

 

A good purchase I am very happy with. And yes, it does look cool.

[grasslander]

Well the Remus (full system) should be here no later than next Tuesday. Maybe this Saturday. I will make an appointment with the dyno if possible for a week from this Friday. We will test the can only first in both configurations. Then the full system.

 

It's been fun watching the recent banter here that seems to follow every thread about exhausts I've read in this forum. I'm doing this test 'cause I'm tired of all the conjecture about what is and isn't. I'm also having a bunch of fun doing a little science. I'll bet a lot of you are having fun following this as well.

 

Ok Dean, you've convinced me that the Remus is the way to go. I'm tired of the bulbous look of the stock can on my gorgeous silver/blue ST. I like the Remus look on your ST. You've convinced me of the quality of the unit (not to say the Staintune, etc is bad). But it seems to have a good chance of doing more than just look good, without being to DB challenged (especially the Revolution).

 

Let's remember my first motives for buying this system. All I really care about is that the system looks good, looses a little weight, doesn't void my warranty, and gets a different, hopefully better, sound note than stock. I'm betting that with the core installed it'll be a very small dBa increase and a miniscule actual loudness increase. In return, I'll achieve at least three out of my four goals.

 

It'll be interesting to see if with the full system and no core installed can get at least a 5% increase in power/torque. I'll probably always run the quiet core on the street - definitely while touring. With core installed I expect to see less performance but still my base goal is achieved. But I do run track days and it seems the AMA is OK with 96 dBa or less on a closed course (I wonder if it'll even exceed 92 dBa - of course before I'm done we'll have at least an educated idea of that as well).

 

Ultimately I'm having a great time with this project and If it's a total failure I can afford to throw the whole damn thing in the trash and go back to stock (I won't be selling the stock system, if I sold the ST - not likely- I'd put it back stock anyway). Of course the experience I'm having will still have been fun!

 

I can't wait till next Friday!

[Tommy_Boy]

I'll bet a lot of you are having fun following this as well.

 

Absolutely! I look forward to every installment!

[grasslander]

Picked up the Remus this morning. Sweet. The Ti can is very nice and well made. Must be half the weight and diameter of the stock can. I drilled the pop rivet out before install to prepare the can for removable core use.

 

I decided to change my sound level testing using the new AMA recommended method. 20" on a 45 degree plane from the exhaust opening, with the instrument facing to the rear on the 45 degree angle away from the opening. I re-tested stock using this method. Then the slip on with core and without.

 

Stock:

73 dBa idle, 86 dBa 4K RPM

 

Remus w/ core - stock header:

77 dBa idle, 89 dBa 4k RPM

 

Remus no core - stock header:

81 dBa idle, 92 dBa 4k RPM

 

By the ear impression...

...love the new w/core sound. Nice low frequency rumble. Not any harder on my ears than the higher pitched stock sound. Wouldn't want the open core sound on a trip all day. It will be a hoot hearing that thing growl every 20min at the track though. I recorded the three sounds and will get them up on my site soon. Been danged busy traveling, so I've waited to call the dyno till I knew I had the pipe in hand. I will call on Tuesday and set the next date!

 

[grasslander]

Here are some zipped mp3s for download and listening. Using stock header at idle and 4k RPM. Used my DV recorder mike at same location as the dBa readings.

 

http://homepage.mac.com/jimdoyle/FileSharing25.html

 

BMW Stock.mp3

Remus Core.mp3

Remus No Core.mp3

Remus Core Rev.mp3

[Fran]

I have the Remus full system on my RT, I enjoyed the sound clips, it was very intersting hearing them without resorting to memory.

I had mentioned once before on a previous post somewhere on here that I was amazed when I pulled the stock headers as to the amount of restriction at the flange caused by the bead of the weld where the pipe meets the flange. At best I suspect a mariginal increase in flow could be obtained by derestricting the opening by cleaning up the weld thus opening up the pipe.

Fran

[kopov260]

I can't wait to hear the results of your experiment. If there will be noticable difference in power and sound I'll definitely get the headers since I only have the slip on.

[Slumgullion]

I've got the full Remus on my ST. Seat of the pants..smoother power delivery and more responsive AND it now sounds like a motorcycle should sound IMHO

[NakedRider]

I've got the full Remus on my ST. Seat of the pants..smoother power delivery and more responsive AND it now sounds like a motorcycle should sound IMHO

 

+1

[grasslander]

Slip on Dyno tests will be this Thursday AM. I will try to post up results that evening.

[grasslander]

Test are in for the Slip-on.

 

I'm not impressed. If you run the slip-on with the core you'll see a loss of 5hp. With the core removed a gain of less that 2hp at 7k and above...

 

 

Green is with no core: 101.91 hp - 77.09 torque

Blue is stock: 100.26 hp - 78.22 torque

Red is with core 94.74 hp - 74.24 torque

 

Under 6k mid range looses and the curve isn't as smooth.

Fuel map isn't nearly as good and I would expect a fuel mileage drop in the 4-5k cruise range due to over rich condition. Seems to lean in the 7k range. Power commander anyone?

 

From what I see the slip-on is NOT a recommended buy in my book and doesn't hold up to Remus claims of mid range improvement over stock. If you are going to buy it for sound, looks and weight - save money and buy the Grand Prix.

 

Next test is 12-21-06 full system with and without the core.

[Highway41]

Thanks for the info; I think better of my stock system already.

Looking at the dyno sheet, one would note that you were at Topeka on Topeka in Topeka.

Thanks again.

Bill

[kopov260]

Ok, based on what I see I am guessing I'm gonna have to add the headers to my slip-on to make it full system or go back to stock and that I won't do.

Many thanks. I'll wait til the 21st.

[vfrman]

Wow... what a disappointment! Have you tried fitting a K&N filter to see what that might do with the slip-on? I doubt it'll help that much.. but you never know.

 

Slip-on is definitely not worth worth. I'm looking forward to the full system test....

 

Thanks for the info!!

[Tapatio]

Doesn't suprise me at all. I'm sure that some very talented engineers at BMW spent a considerable amount of time and money tuning the engine/exhaust system to provide the best overall performance.

 

If you want a loud bike buy a Harley.

[Ruben]

Thank you very much. Very interesting!

 

Nothing like the facts, which the dyno sure provides. Actually, its kind of what I expected. I would also expect that the full system will show some increase, but I think you may need a K&N or some such to get it.

[Deans BMW]

K & N will not do anything. The addition of the Remus head pipes will give you an increase. I only use a stock AF on my ST.

[NakedRider]

K & N will not do anything. The addition of the Remus head pipes will give you an increase. I only use a stock AF on my ST.

 

My bet - the best increase would be from a snorkel. I've added one to several BMW twins and they always seemed to provide more HP than a pipe, especially in the mid-range.

 

Dean, influence your friends at SJBMW to make a snorkel for this bike. I'll be the first in line! They made a great airbox/snorkel combo for the 1100S and I put one on my Rockster too. I added one to my R1200GS and it dyno'd 90 at the rear.

[vfrman]

K & N will not do anything.

I disagree. I rode my 1200RT for 3 months, in all types of conditions. I recently fitted a K&N filter to it, and I could definitely tell the difference. Throttle response is much crisper, and it backfires much less. I can tell it breathes much better than the stock filter.

Hell.. just holding up the two filters side by side and visually inspecting them would tell you that the bike would breathe a heck of a lot easier with the K&N.

 

I admit, the first time I started the bike and took it for a ride after the filter change, I didn't notice much. When I parked it, shut it down, and restarted it, the computer must've made some adjustments because the difference was noticeable.

 

The same outcome happened when I had the 12GS and fitted it with the Staintune full exhaust. First ride it felt like it lost power, couldn't even pull my typical second gear wheelies on it. When I parked it and started it again, it was a whole other ballgame... the difference was huge.

[David]

This here is the new "me" not responding to your post. I just want to get some credit for moving along and not gawking at the accident I see unfolding in front of me.

[BiggerTwin]

If you are going to buy it for sound, looks and weight - save money and buy the Grand Prix.

Which Remus are you testing?

 

Alan

[ProductUser]

I disagree. I rode my 1200RT for 3 months, in all types of conditions. I recently fitted a K&N filter to it, and I could definitely tell the difference. Throttle response is much crisper, and it backfires much less. I can tell it breathes much better than the stock filter.

Hell.. just holding up the two filters side by side and visually inspecting them would tell you that the bike would breathe a heck of a lot easier with the K&N.

 

Did your comparison also tell you that you're letting in more debris into your engine? Since I keep my vehicles for a long time, I would never buy a used vehicle from someone that installed a K&N filter.

 

There are a lot of BMW gurus out there that all make the same statement: K&N filters do nothing re increased HP.

 

ProductUser

[Deans BMW]

At San Jose BMW, extensive testing was done on the R1200S Re air filters, snorkles and other air intake mods, all with lots of dyno runs.

 

The result on the R1200S was that every mod REDUCED power. With the R1200 ST/RT/R engine with stock mapping, the most improvement will be with a head pipe change. San Jose's testing with a can only change duplicates what has been posted above.

[Deckdr]

What about Staintune? Anyone have any experience with their slipon?