Full Throttle's Demise

February 5

50 minutes ago, Dennis Andress said:

Marty Hill saying "I can't believe this is here. I'm leaving" How many others?

I too think FT "bravado" has seeped into discussions here. Being asked why I left FT and listening to what they thought the reason was at Unrallies ain't cool. If nothing else, this forum had an unbelievable tolerance for ANY person. FT demanded you fit a slot and few slots were considered acceptable by the rulers of that dungeon.

February 5

8 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

IIRC it was jimwms that bailed at the opening of FT. Marty left (IMO) only after seeing the groups center / right lean.

Same with most of the discussions in FT, left leaning people didn’t enjoy them because all of country’s left policies have been complete and utter failures. Hard to debate and defend them.

A perfect example of FT leaking into the main forum. Me and Pat are good, but this post would never have been "acceptable" in the regular forum before FT.

February 5

Just now, realshelby said:

A perfect example of FT leaking into the main forum. Me and Pat are good, but this post would never have been "acceptable" in the regular forum before FT.

Ya, I took a chance with it, I agree, but we are discussing the demise of FT. Facts are facts.

February 5

18 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

IIRC it was jimwms that bailed at the opening of FT. Marty left (IMO only) after seeing the groups center / right lean.

Same with most of the discussions in FT, left leaning people didn’t enjoy them because all of country’s left policies have been complete and utter failures. Hard to debate and defend them.

And so in the discussion of what we want to become as a site, politics walks right back in.

February 5

3 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

And so in the discussion of what we want to become as a site, politics walks right back in.

Are you suggesting we discuss an Orange & Black Harley Davidson without saying the words orange or Harley?

February 5

To the folks who continue in this discussion:

First, I noted above that I have not participated in FT and really don't care to let it or its topics affect me, so I am fine with the decision.

That said, on a technical point, to those who raise First Amendment/freedom of speech arguments to challenge the decision, they really don't apply here. While many believe that those protections are broad and apply to many facets of everyday life, that view is overbroad. The protections afforded by the First Amendment apply only to governmental restrictions, controls or censorship. The rights and privileges of the First Amendment don't apply to restrictions by the private sector, private entities or private platforms.

February 5

1 hour ago, Dennis Andress said:

We get about 50 new members a month, and almost none of them stick around.

That makes me think that there may be a different issue with those joiners that don’t stick around. How many of those folks come and find real value in the experienced and pro level mechanical advise on Rondel machines, get pro level support and then bail out? Throw in the decades of expert travel experience, farkle advise etc.

If this 50 sign up and drop are doing that kind of hit run membership, then maybe there is a better way to have those hit and run sign ups stick around. I’m thinking something like Fixya or Just ask. Free join to talk riding, trips rallies and such and access to higher value help is behind a nominal charge pay wall, or discounted annual membership. Like they say, why buy the cow when you’re getting the milk free.

You all can pile on now and call me some unflattering names for this last comment. It’s OK, you FT participants know my hide is pretty darn thick (thick head too😎).

February 5

24 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

Are you suggesting we discuss an Orange & Black Harley Davidson without saying the words orange or Harley?

No, I'm saying that this is a discussion of the Full Throttle section and its value to the site. It is not a discussion of Left verses Right and the success or failure of their policies.

You admit it yourself, you took a chance.

To relate it to the Harley analogy, it would be like a discussion of whether a Harley section adds any value to the site, not whether it is a superior brand to BMW, in this context.

February 5

Of all the forums on this site FT is the dealbreaker for all the members? "Are you serious"? as McEnroe used to say. It sounds like a lot of people and some who I've met face to face went to FT to claim offense. If I don't like a TV show I don't watch, if I dislike a TV talking head I find the mute like I do for commercials. No one forced anyone to go to FT or read FT or participate in FT. If I didn't care for a point of view I often simply did not contribute. If I offended some of you I apologize. I thought I was dealing with mature adults who would engage in the give and take of the exchange of ideas-no insult intended-just a difference in viewpoints. To paraphrase Patrick Henry " I may not agree with what you say but I'll die for your right to say it" Maybe we need a closed "members only" forum where we can disagree without being fully disagreeable(well maybe a little)

One of the things I noted about FT towards the end was the lack of new subjects. If I could go back and tally the number of posts to threads I'd guess about 4-5 were the hot ones. I think we could have moderated a little more to keep the discussion on subject rather than digressing into areas that contributed nothing to the subject matter.

Yes this site has value. I lurk-alot-and find things of interest including things about bikes I'm considering owning. I don't contribute to many of the threads because I lack expertise. I'll continue to lurk. Best regards to all.

February 5

Here we are, Full Throttle reincarnated in one thread i.e. two or three people beating on something until they get their way. Why don't ya'll put something like "We're righter than everybody so don't disagree with us." in you sig line! You've had a good run, had your fun. Why not let the board move on and become something that is appealing and attractive to other people.

February 5

32 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

No, I'm saying that this is a discussion of the Full Throttle section and its value to the site. It is not a discussion of Left verses Right and the success or failure of their policies

That’s exactly why FT met its demise. If the policies on the left were successful and good for this country (and center right still disagreed) full throttle would still be up and running. But they’re not, and it’s not. Censorship at its finest but it’s understood it’s a private playground. Now I really thought you’d understand my Harley analogy.

February 5

My head hurts…

Dennis/Chris… is there away to ping the 50 in/out randomly and ask why they didn’t stick around? Are you required to put an email address in when you sign up… I don’t remember

Adding new users will likely add more experiences and tech talent. I’m not commenting on FT as there are plenty of Yes/No already. Genuinely interested in whoever to retain folks

True story. There is a website called Two wheel Texans. I’ve been on it probably 10!or more years. I have one post. I asked if anyone local would rent me an MC trailer to go to start one year. I got all kinds of mail asking why only one post and if they were doing something wrong. When I told them who I was they realized I had been to lunch gatherings and pie runs about 20 times. The long note for saying, if we can, let’s find out why people leave and work to retain them.

February 5

1 minute ago, Dennis Andress said:

Here we are, Full Throttle reincarnated in one thread i.e. two or three people beating on something until they get their way. Why don't ya'll put something like "We're righter than everybody so don't disagree with us." in you sig line! You've had a good run, had your fun. Why not let the board move on and become something that is appealing and attractive to other people.

That wasn't my intent. I shared an observation. Period. Experiment. See if your theory bears fruit.

February 5

Just now, MT Wallet said:

That wasn't my intent. I shared an observation. Period. Experiment. See if your theory bears fruit.

I wasn't referring to your post, it came in while I was typing. I'd like to meet you sometime...

February 5

3 hours ago, marcopolo said:

I never felt there was any place on this Board for Full Throttle. There are countless places online to engage in the topics that show up in FT. Why do we need it here?. To me, it never added anything positive to the Board. Call me crazy, but why wouldn’t BMWST concentrate on motorcycle- related topics, like it has for most of its existence?

That's exactly why I added it to my "Ignore" list very soon after it was created. It seemed to be mostly a place to argue, and there are plenty of other places to do that. Arguments seldom change anyone's opinion, so they just become a way to separate people into opposition groups. I expect a motorcycle forum to be a place for motorcyclists to come together to talk about motorcycling experiences and solve motorcycling problems. I go elsewhere when I want to talk about other topics.

I'd rather like a member because we share a common interest than find still another person to dislike because they have (IMO) stupid, ignorant ideas.

I have in-laws to fill that need.

February 5

15 minutes ago, MT Wallet said:

That wasn't my intent. I shared an observation. Period. Experiment. See if your theory bears fruit.

That'd likely be Pat and me as the referred ones

February 5

4 minutes ago, lkraus said:

ignorant ideas.

I have in-laws to fill that need.

😁

February 5

30 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

My head hurts…

Dennis/Chris… is there away to ping the 50 in/out randomly and ask why they didn’t stick around? Are you required to put an email address in when you sign up… I don’t remember

Good plan. Let's hope they do it and share their findings.

February 5

15 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

That'd likely be Pat and me as the referred ones

I figured as much :3:

February 5

Who me? :14:

It’s ok, put her down. I’m a little sad because it was the first time in my life that I got to debate current affair issues with people way more qualified than myself. Master Debaters you might say.

PS.. Joke ^ for the overly sophisticated.

February 6

Wow …. Never knew the FT page existed but like others feel this is a motorcycle community “online on the road” so not sure the point. But that’s just me.

February 6

8 hours ago, Dennis Andress said:

Have you tried 4Chan? I'm sure there is a place there you'd fit. As for this board, I must ask you to leave.

Got it. I know when I'm not wanted. (Freakin' SOB).

I'm gone. Bye.

(Yeah, I have a dry sense of humor as well. 🙃😁)

👍🍻

February 6

7 hours ago, Dennis Andress said:

I clearly said that this thread is about what we want to become, not what we were. Scott999 didn’t want to do that, and wrote some vitriol about I’m not sure what.

We get about 50 new members a month, and almost none of them stick around. I’m betting that without FT , and the attitudes that it bread, some will stick around and sooner or later we’ll find another Pilgrim.

Do you feel like finishing Pilgrim’s story? Maybe ask a kid to work on it together….

Hmm, I gather that you were actually serious.

This isn't kidding. It was nice, folks, but the new Mod has kicked me out of here, for the first (honest, forthright) post I made.

Happy trails, and have a bunch of fun.

(Click)

February 6

Since FT was shut down with a lot of noise made about members not participating in the site I've surfed some of the rally threads and I see people participating and planning to show up. I haven't seen some of these names in years and certainly not in FT. It's good to see they are still out there and active. It makes me wonder if the FT shut down is misguided or missing the the mark??

February 6

I was here long before Full Throttle. When discussions about starting it were started I sort of thought this might be the ONLY forum that could handle it. I was on it for a while. It degraded with time, or at least I got tired of hearing the same few spout how they were right 100% of the time and NO debate is welcome or needed. A good experiment. I will still be hear after it is gone. In fact I may just be here more and make more plans to get to a meet or two. After all, THAT is what has made this group what it is for so many years!

While you CAN use the ignore button on forums, that is HARD to do at a rally or event. I can tell you I have avoided saying hi to certain members because I didn't want to take a chance I would be hearing what I read on FT when I was still on it. That is just me. Maybe that can change now!

February 6

The decision has been made, closed for business. (I think a very poor one in running off Scott) but some day when I take over he will be invited back with an apology.

But my take on what Terry said. One tiny section of the forum was opened up to talking the talk, that’s it. Don’t take it anywhere else on the forum or more importantly at a gathering.

It can be and has been done at the few I’ve attended since FT opened. Bikes, Travels, Food, no politics. Maybe drones with William but that’s it.

Yeah, you’re going to learn a lot more about that person typing and you may or may not agree but that’s how life works.

February 6

10 minutes ago, realshelby said:

I can tell you I have avoided saying hi to certain members because I didn't want to take a chance I would be hearing what I read on FT when I was still on it. That is just me. Maybe that can change now!

If those folks didn't tell you the type of stuff you read on FT before FT existed, than why would those subjects come up upon meeting again? Generally politics/religion don't come up as a "hey, how you doing, nice to meet you, let's talk about president's xyz's policies and the pope"

To think I'd avoid Paddler, Bucifer or Paul just because of their post on FT is ridiculous. As an adult, knowing that we all share different thoughts and beliefs, it's understandable that we will not all be the same and agree to everything.

February 6

6 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

But my take on what Terry said. One tiny section of the forum was opened up to talking the talk, that’s it. Don’t take it anywhere else on the forum or more importantly at a gathering.

Pat, you know what you just wrote has already been disobeyed by yourself on this very thread. This is exactly why I say Full Throttle had seeped out of its containment.

February 6

1 minute ago, Rougarou said:

To think I'd avoid Paddler, Bucifer or Paul just because of their post on FT is ridiculous. As an adult, knowing that we all share different thoughts and beliefs, it's understandable that we will not all be the same and agree to everything.

Richard, this is another example of why FT has not worked. I know you....are not bashful about your opinion. Part of what makes Richard...Richard. I have learned to respect that.

But stating someones post is ridiculous because they may go against your posts would never have been allowed on this forum before. Should have called them out on FT, not the open forum.

February 6

7 minutes ago, realshelby said:

Richard, this is another example of why FT has not worked. I know you....are not bashful about your opinion. Part of what makes Richard...Richard. I have learned to respect that.

But stating someones post is ridiculous because they may go against your posts would never have been allowed on this forum before. Should have called them out on FT, not the open forum.

I'm not saying the post is ridiculous, I'm saying avoiding someone because of their post is ridiculous.

February 6

10 minutes ago, realshelby said:

Pat, you know what you just wrote has already been disobeyed by yourself on this very thread. This is exactly why I say Full Throttle had seeped out of its containment.

Understood but like I mentioned to Hosstage, you can’t talk about a subject without talking about THE subject. And yeah, I could do better, I get that.

February 6

17 hours ago, RandyShields said:

To the folks who continue in this discussion:

First, I noted above that I have not participated in FT and really don't care to let it or its topics affect me, so I am fine with the decision.

That said, on a technical point, to those who raise First Amendment/freedom of speech arguments to challenge the decision, they really don't apply here. While many believe that those protections are broad and apply to many facets of everyday life, that view is overbroad. The protections afforded by the First Amendment apply only to governmental restrictions, controls or censorship. The rights and privileges of the First Amendment don't apply to restrictions by the private sector, private entities or private platforms.

WOW .. did someone really mention "freedom of speech" ??

:4317:

February 6

This one needs popcorn!

February 6

1 minute ago, RTinNC said:

WOW .. did someone really mention "freedom of speech" ??

It's been mentioned a few times.

February 6

9 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

It's been mentioned a few times.

And they were wrong, it's never been about free speech

February 6

When is this thread going to be locked down?

February 6

7 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

Understood but like I mentioned to Hosstage, you can’t talk about a subject without talking about THE subject. And yeah, I could do better, I get that.

17 hours ago, Hosstage said:

Same with most of the discussions in FT, left leaning people didn’t enjoy them because all of country’s left policies have been complete and utter failures. Hard to debate and defend them.

That is about as political a statement as there is. A political view presented as fact in a non FT thread. In fact those policies can be debated and defended, but not here.

That was the point of my response. The subject of FT can be discussed without bringing in obvious political biases.

I see it like religion being brought into politics, by politicians. Many make decisions based on their religious views, they even make sure to push that information. See Johnson's statement that he makes decisions based on the Bible. I don't want laws that effect me to be driven by religion. And if laws get made based on "the right thing to do based on the teachings of the Bible", just remember that one day someone will have the power to make laws based on the Quran, or another teaching that is not Christian. Then what? Fair is fair. You can't then say, well they're wrong to use their Bible, laws should be made using our Bible. Oh the outcry to come

February 6

8 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

And they were wrong, it's never been about free speech

Correct, not here. My mention of it in previous posts was in that context.

2 minutes ago, wbw6cos said:

When is this thread going to be locked down?

Not yet?

February 6

21 minutes ago, wbw6cos said:

When is this thread going to be locked down?

As soon as mountain standard time wakes up

February 6

1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

I'm not saying the post is ridiculous, I'm saying avoiding someone because of their post is ridiculous.

So.... A short scrawny guy, or a small lady, who feels insecure in your presence, or that of anyone else in this thread, because of what has been written here is being ridiculous? Have you no respect for others feelings or opinions?

February 6

23 minutes ago, Dennis Andress said:

So.... A short scrawny guy, or a small lady, who feels insecure in your presence, or that of anyone else in this thread, because of what has been written here is being ridiculous?

Yes. If that person has a problem with a post, that individual isn't doing the whole person review, just taking a single post/thread/subject as the basis of "who" the poster is. That person is looking at a part of someones belief and not taking into account any other factors that the poster has or other attributes that "may" outweigh the post/thread that was read. Some folks align themselves as being conservative, yet they are atheist, accept abortion and accept gay marriage, others align themselves with liberalism, yet oppose abortion, are deeply religious and do not accept gay marriage. A post on any of those three subjects, would make the reader think one way, yet the poster would be mostly opposite of that thought. Carville and Matalin are political opposites, yet, married, go figure that one. We can't control someones insecurities.

BTW, I'm kinda short

23 minutes ago, Dennis Andress said:

Have you no respect for others feelings or opinions?

I don't do well with empathy, I've stated that before. When my best friends son called to tell me his dad died,....my best friend,....my response was a simple "that sucks".

Opinions are respected even if they are completely opposite of mine, I've stated we are all different, and many need to accept that fact---unless they'd rather keep the unknown in the closet and just make the assumptions that because they are on a BMW motorcycle board, all their thoughts and opinions are the same (you're just like me).

February 6

Hello Dennis. Thank you for accepting the burden of leadership. And thank you for closing FT.

IMO whether we lose new members because of FT actually need not be proven. We know we have lost good, no great, members because of it. That alone is reason enough.

I read in this thread the notion that people only leave because of people being offended by specific opinions ... primarily specific Left/Right political opinions. (A false dilemma, that.) For me, it's what accompanies the "anything goes" environments. Not WHAT is said but HOW it is said. People being "offended" is nowhere near the worst case. It is the general lack of civility, manners, and respect that so often accompanies strong political opinions. NOTE: We've already seen some of that ugliness in this thread.

Back in the early years I was on this forum, I often did not shy away from making my opinions known about current events and such, even before FT. Looking back, I regret almost every single one of those "discussions." Why? Because my opinions on things outside of motorcycling just aren't important enough that anyone need read them here.

As has been pointed out continuously, there are indeed thousands of forums, if not more, where people can go to discuss other topics.

So, if your goal is to wrestle this board back away from being a bully pulpit for presenting opinions unrelated to motorcycling, I support that wholeheartedly. I am yet another who believes it should be a place to focus on what we love and have in common. Motorcycling.

New and old, members want to feel welcome. That is an overt statement.

February 6

59 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Yes. If that person has a problem with a post, that individual isn't doing the whole person review, just taking a single post/thread/subject as the basis of "who" the poster is. That person is looking at a part of someones belief and not taking into account any other factors that the poster has or other attributes that "may" outweigh the post/thread that was read. Some folks align themselves as being conservative, yet they are atheist, accept abortion and accept gay marriage, others align themselves with liberalism, yet oppose abortion, are deeply religious and do not accept gay marriage. A post on any of those three subjects, would make the reader think one way, yet the poster would be mostly opposite of that thought. Carville and Matalin are political opposites, yet, married, go figure that one. We can't control someones insecurities.

BTW, I'm kinda short

I don't do well with empathy, I've stated that before. When my best friends son called to tell me his dad died,....my best friend,....my response was a simple "that sucks".

Opinions are respected even if they are completely opposite of mine, I've stated we are all different, and many need to accept that fact---unless they'd rather keep the unknown in the closet and just make the assumptions that because they are on a BMW motorcycle board, all their thoughts and opinions are the same (you're just like me).

I'm low on empathy too. Expecting someone to vet something they find hurtful against what they know of your beliefs, and decide that you're a nice guy after all, is not going to work here.

Perhaps you should leave.

February 6

Remind me again, which of these subjects have to do with motorcycling---there may be some hit and miss bike stuff, but overall, this forum is dedicated to non-motorcycling subjects

1 minute ago, Dennis Andress said:

Perhaps you should leave.

If you so desire

February 6

7 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

If you so desire

It's your choice. Either be openly respectful of others, or leave.

February 6

Wait a second. DA, I understand the frustration with the push back on the decision shutting FT down. I think some of the mourning about that decision was getting monotonous, even excessive myself. I think we have been in sort of violent agreement on the facts. You own the website and you make the rules. There is a new sherif in town, crystal clear. And your desire to make BMWST more welcoming to all who share the joy of motorcycling is an admirable goal. Part of that goal was to remove a forum many found unnecessary and likely making a net negative impact on the website. Got it, your house your rules and if I’m visiting I’ll play by the rules.

That said, the post I just read about asking Rouharou to leave is a little unsettling in itself. Sort of hit me as contrary to the stated mission.

I haven’t found Rougarou opinions and statements on this thread unrespectful, stubborn maybe, but that’s the guy I know from his many posts on all the forums I’ve read over the years. Hell, if he weren’t a little stubborn on his opinions I would want his wife to take him to the doctor to get him checked out😉.

February 6

1 hour ago, Dennis Andress said:

It's your choice. Either be openly respectful of others, or leave.

Well, time for me to weigh back in with another perspective. I think the most recent issue here is about how we think we should be dealt with on this board. I agree that everyone should be treated with respect. The problem is that everyone may have a different view of what is respectful -- or more importantly -- disrespectful. And a lot can get lost in translation with just the written word. Someone may write something and have no inkling that it might be perceived as disrespectful. And it might not be to many of the readers. But everyone has differing levels of sensitivities. What is disrespectful to one person may be just blunt to others, but not disrespectful.

I didn't interpret Roug's "ridiculous" reference as disrespectful, just blunt opinion. And, while I haven't seen what he may have written in FT as I don't go there, I can't recall Roug ever posting anything that I would consider to be disrespectful of others in any non-FT forums. Blunt and perhaps a bit opinionated, yes. But not disrespectful.

February 6

At the risk of being accused of being a Rush fan . . .I offer from From Hand Over Fist:

The Story of FT

You talk as we walk along
You never imagined I could be so wrong
Humming your favorite song
You know I've hated that song for so long

How can we ever agree?
Like the rest of the world
We grow farther apart

I swear you don't listen to me
Holding my hand to my heart
Holding my fist to my racing heart

Hand over fist
Paper around the stone
Scissors cut the paper
Cut the paper to the bone

The typical experience of BMWST outside of FT, both in threads and at our events:

Take a walk outside myself
In some exotic land
Greet a passing stranger
Feel the strength in his hand
Feel the world expand

I feel my spirit resist
But I open up my fist
Lay hand over hand over

Hand over hand
Doesn't seem so much
Hand over hand
Is the strength of the common touch

Our common interests brought all of us here (BMW's and biking), and if you've spent time here and/or at events, you've made life-long friends and chances are your life has been enhanced. No one came here because of FT. Let's get back to focusing on the strengths of this board and it's members - the 'common touch' if you will, that brought us all here in the first place.

And if you've not had a chance to get out from behind the keyboard and attend an ART, UN, DVD, SECFF or other events, do yourself a favor and take a chance - you will not regret it.

Things change. FT is closed. Let's turn the page and move on.

February 6

27 minutes ago, Indy Dave said:

At the risk of being accused as a Rush fan. . . From Hand Over Fist

The Story of FT

.....

Thanks Dave, I need to work with that a bit.

I'm new at this and learning as I go. I appreciate ya'll stepping up and telling me how you feel.

Twice now I've mentioned that the attitudes and behaviors of FT have infected this board, only to be poo pahd. I feel what Roug' wrote about someone "not doing a whole person review" is an example attitude. Why go through the hurt and discontent of shutting down FT if that carries forward?

I gave Roug a choice. I have not banned him, or Scott999. On all ya'lls recommendation Roug is welcome to remain.

February 6

Good idea. Banishment should be the last resort.

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