Full Throttle's Demise

[Dennis Andress]

I really wanted to save Full Throttle. Fix its woes, calm it down, and send it on its way, bigger badder, better. I am also preoccupied with getting people who've left to return. I accept now that FT's race to the bottom ended some time ago. And, I figured out something about some of those who left:

 

What if your career depended on people's perception of you?

 

I was a freelance software engineer. Imagine if I walked into a client's office and the CFO said: "Our security company found your IP address on a website that's identified as a right-wing motorcycle group." Far fetched? Full Throttle accounted for about 40% of our traffic, all of it public. Most professionals know not to be associated with anything that can harm their reputation. So they left - the very people we used to learn so much cool stuff from.

 

But that's not what I wanted to talk about. I want to talk about Pilgrim. I remember little about him, close to retirement and very protective of his day job. He wanted to be a writer, and came here to spread his wings. I remembered him while writing the "What it is" thread in FT. The only thing left of his is right here. I just have to do this, and, please join in!

(I quote it here)

 

Quote

You are sound asleep when you feel ... something ... on the bed. You open your eyes to see the closet where you usually park your vacuum-cleaning trained Little Dog. The door is open - it shouldn't be - and suddenly you realize what is on the bed. Turning your head you find the LD by your shoulder, perceiving you. It lifts a leg and __________ (finish the story.)

 

[Dennis Andress]

...  suddenly you feel eight lbs of coiled barbed wire spring from from the place near your feet where the Little Black Cat sleeps. The LBC lands on your forearm and from your unique viewpoint you see his paw, claws out, connect with the LD's left nut. The pain from your forearm reaches your brain and you bellow, the LD, flopping around in agony, freaks and bolts out the door. The LBC tries to give chase...

 

You get up, turn the lights on, and stem the flow of blood from your forearm. You then interrupt the LBC's victory dance and toss him on the back porch to contemplate his reality. You calm the LD down and find the damage to be minor. You give him a doggy downer and put him back in his closet. After you clean up you sit and sip a little while you write an email to your vet asking for an appointment to have the LD neutered.

[Rougarou]

Hardly call it a right wing motorcycle group as any forensic check will determine that a small percentage of the user base post in FT. 

 

Also, I thought that only members had access to FT, a lurker not registered would not see it.

 

I take enough poly's for my job and a concern of being associated with FT being "termed" or "perceived" as a right wing forum was/is nowhere close to being of any concern.  All my social media has to be listed as well........privacy, no, I  really have none.

 

Anyway, to finish Pilgrims story.

 

 It lifts a leg and __________ and sees you turn your face toward it.  Recognizing it's possible mistake, the little dog puts its leg down, turns toward you and puts its cold nose on yours.  You wiggle back, pat the little dog on the head as it climbs on your chest to curl up for the rest of the nights slumber.

 

[TEWKS]

Right wing.

 

Protect your home, family, community, country.

Protect the weak and struggling in your community. (Up until it becomes a hand out) Zoo animals have no pride in themselves. 

 

Protect the right to speak freely without fear. Not talking “hate” speech BTW.
 

Protect the protectors so they can do their job.

 

I don’t see this as being right wing. It’s American, it’s the American way, how things use to be, like Pilgrim, all good things.

[BamaJohn]

I rarely read any post on FT, and have never posted on FT, but wonder which topic will be censored next.  We can all choose to not read anything, and anything can be called "offensive" to someone.

[realshelby]

I was on Full Throttle for a while. 

 

I was afraid of what I was seeing written. 

 

What I was afraid of has come to pass exactly as I saw it playing out. 

 

I don't need it. Have no idea if it is gone or going and don't care. 

[TEWKS]

8 hours ago, Dennis Andress said:

I am also preoccupied with getting people who've left to return.

With all due respect, I’m thinking most of the people that you’re referring to left well before FT. Unfortunately It’s not going to ever be the same, they left because life evolves, interests change, it’s just how it works. 
 

As mentioned 40% of the forum’s traffic was on a locked or invisible (if you chose) sub forum. That’s pretty impressive. 

[John Ranalletta]

The interchanges we demonstrate when at UNs and ARTs in no way resembles the discussions in FT or in Jo Mama.  Typing at each other using the ether as a buffer seems to give us license to poke the bear, exchange verbal punches and give air to controversial topics and opinions.  Members never exhibit the behaviors seen in FT when face to face for fear of offending or arguing out of respect for one another and differing opinions.

 

I've posted in FT, so I'm not throwing stones, just saying FT content has the potential to weaken rather than strengthen our connections.  Removing FT is censorship of a sort, but IMO, the question is does closing down FT support the board's purposes for existing or weaken them?  It's easy to say we can throw bricks at each other here while sharing a laugh and a beer at events, but that's a fairy tale.  Just try wearing a "FDT" or "FJB" button at START.

 

Perhaps, it's time for the board's owner to restate those purposes. 

 

 

 

 

[RandyShields]

Like Bama John, I don't read FT and maybe only posted there once or twice.  I recognize the need for some to engage on these issues where there will always be different perspectives, but personally don't need or want the political interaction.  I enjoy this board for the motorcycle discussions, travel commentary, and the lighter fare in Other Topics.  That said, I don't have any problems with having a forum for folks to discuss those items, as there seems to be an interest in it.  I truly did not know that 40% of the site's traffic was there.  

[RandyShields]

Oh, now I see FT has been closed.  Didn't even know that when I responded above. 

[Patallaire]

9 hours ago, Dennis Andress said:

Full Throttle accounted for about 40% of our traffic,

So the baby got thrown out with the bath water!  Since it was a private site and the forum was a private sub forum and the people who participated did so willingly and knowingly, engaged with each other knowingly, how is it that  a decision was made that impacts 40% of the traffic? Those who expressed dislike for the forum exercised their right to not visit it, as I exercise my right to not visit certain sub sections on the board. 

Referring to us as a "Right Wing Motorcycle Group" is like Hillary referring to conservatives as "Deplorables<" it might actually be an indication of a bias that is hiding in plain sight. The only other person who suggested we weren't left enough caused much of the debate on the board. as he tried to "Fix Us." 

So think again about this Dennis, this forum did not subjugate  its will on the entire board but created a free exchange for 40% of the traffic in a very specific space.  No other sub-section on the board has that consistency or participation rate. Eyeballs equal board growth.    Remember Dennis, "All power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely." 

Pilgrim and I wrote often, he was more advocate of free exchange and encouraged it. 

1 hour ago, John Ranalletta said:

  It's easy to say we can throw bricks at each other here while sharing a laugh and a beer at events, but that's a fairy tale

I have never encountered that, once we are in the presence of each other, the bike, the ride and the gathering are the great equalizer.  I remember as does Dennis, being in Gunnison with the Hells Angels, a group few if any of us had anything in common with except for Bikes and it was cordial and engaging.  Philosophical, moral and political difference were set aside.  I took a ferry across from Seattle to Olympia with the Outlaws and it was an admiration of the bikes, career discussions etc.  There was no dissent. {Of course I was greatly outnumbered} But never felt endangered or not free to share differing perspectives.  Adults can do that. 

[Dennis Andress]

1 hour ago, John Ranalletta said:

Perhaps, it's time for the board's owner to restate those purposes. 

 

I want to attract people who teach us stuff and make us better.

[TEWKS]

57 minutes ago, RandyShields said:

I truly did not know that 40% of the site's traffic was there.  

 Randy, I went back to see if I could find that quote and I couldn’t. Maybe it came to me in a dream  or like Richard said, I don’t comprehend well. 
 

edit…

And Pat comes to my rescue, it wasn’t a dream after all! 

[RandyShields]

3 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

Randy, I went back to see if I could find that quote and I couldn’t.

I was just restating what Dennis reported in the first post of this thread.

[RandyShields]

10 hours ago, Dennis Andress said:

Full Throttle accounted for about 40% of our traffic, all of it public.

This is the statement I was referring to that I was not aware of.

[Dennis Andress]

8 minutes ago, chrisolson said:

 

40% of board traffic. ??  

 

 

 

 

That was a Stupid Wild Ass Guess on my part. Sorry. There were 15 to 20 active members on FT who every day generated more views than Ride Tales.

 

FT was not private or invisible. Guests could not see it but members could. Links to FT worked for members.

[John Ranalletta]

I suspect most users log into "All activities". If they haven't ignored FT, that traffic appears on screen. Even if they don't participate, resisting the urge to see the dumpster fire, they click on a post = much of the 40% IMO. 

[TEWKS]

10 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

Even if they don't participate, resisting the urge to see the dumpster fire, they click on a post = much of the 40% IMO. 

Cookie-dough ice cream and Full Throttle. Ya ok, they’re both like crack, but a good crack!  

[Dennis Andress]

17 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

Cookie-dough ice cream and Full Throttle. Ya ok, they’re both like crack, but a good crack!  

 

Of the 600 or so people who visit monthly only around 20 were on crack. And they made the most noise.

[Dennis Andress]

I didn't start this thread to fight old battles. How about we talk about what we can be?  Anybody feel like taking a shot at completing Pilgrim's story?

[Rougarou]

Just now, Dennis Andress said:

  Anybody feel like take a shot at completing Pilgrim's story?

 

I thought I did that

[Dennis Andress]

Just now, Rougarou said:

 

I thought I did that

You and I are it so far...

[John Ranalletta]

15 minutes ago, Dennis Andress said:

You and I are it so far...

This is the last connection.  I want to remember he moved back to the NW from AZ.

 

[John Ranalletta]

15 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

This is the last connection.  I want to remember he moved back to the NW from AZ.

 

 

I'm sure there is a ton of Pilgrim stories like the sailboat trip he hosted with Dave Baker, Sean Cavanaugh and one other.

 

I remember him from the first official forum tech day at Baker's in Nashville circa 2002 where he demonstrated maintenance services.  @Joe Frickin' Friday may have a clearer memory as he and Shawn overhauled one of their motorcycles over a drainage grate in the street.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

10 hours ago, Dennis Andress said:

...  suddenly you feel eight lbs of coiled barbed wire spring from from the place near your feet where the Little Black Cat sleeps. The LBC lands on your forearm and from your unique viewpoint you see his paw, claws out, connect with the LD's left nut. The pain from your forearm reaches your brain and you bellow, the LD, flopping around in agony, freaks and bolts out the door. The LBC tries to give chase...

 

You get up, turn the lights on, and stem the flow of blood from your forearm. You then interrupt the LBC's victory dance and toss him on the back porch to contemplate his reality. You calm the LD down and find the damage to be minor. You give him a doggy downer and put him back in his closet. After you clean up you sit and sip a little while you write an email to your vet asking for an appointment to have the LD neutered.

 

4 hours ago, Rougarou said:

It lifts a leg and __________ and sees you turn your face toward it.  Recognizing it's possible mistake, the little dog puts its leg down, turns toward you and puts its cold nose on yours.  You wiggle back, pat the little dog on the head as it climbs on your chest to curl up for the rest of the nights slumber.

 

For full context, Kent was originally posting in the "Big Dog Takes To The Woods" thread, which was all about the amazing advances in robotics, machine vision, and AI (thus his reference to "Little Dog").  It's probably one of our oldest active threads: I started it back in 2008,  and the most recent traffic was last summer:

 

 

So if you're thinking of flesh-and-blood house pets as you contemplate ways to finish Kent's story, you might want to think instead of something more Black Mirrorish.

 

 

[Scott9999]

I was once the moderator on a newpaper/baseball site.  I tried to ensure TOS were followed, i.e. keep the vulgarity in check, keep the personal attacks at bay.   I found that you can't be a mod and also post on the same site.  Everyone will see you as taking sides, like maybe calling you a commie-pinko-patriot, rediculous stuff.  There were some hard-left folks, not afraid to call anyone who disagreed with them, names that woulid make a sailor blush.   I never "banned" anyone.  I did "bleep" out a few things.  That caused an uproar.  Eventually I backed off, enforcing almost no rules.  I was just trying to keep the forum alive.  

 

Anyhow, we needed new mods, and one gal that came highly recommended by some folks who seemed like decent people from their posts (maybe call 'em "moderate', or whatever).  I added her as a mod.  Shortly afterwards, I "retired" as a mod, and this lady took the lead role.  A week later, she banned, blacklisted me, etc., for being a conservative bully or something.  Every time I got into the politics, it was a left wing person who started the diatribe.  If I tried to reply IN ANY WAY, this new mod would step in and chastise me for violating TOS.   Of course, the forum eventually failed.  The Newspaper got tired of the hassles, and apparently, no revenue was being realized from their ads.

 

In my personal experience, every, single time a left-of-center person took a moderator role, there was leftwing censorship specifically targeting "right wing nuts".   Their lack of self-unawareness was just amazing.   

 

So, after that, every time I have any kind of a run in with a mod that involves politics, I just politely leave the site.  I feel I'm a guest, the mods represent the site and make the rules, and if they feel that they have to censor my speech, then they don't want me there, and I don't want to be associated with them, either. 

 

(Oh, by the way, I've been kicked off as many "conservative" forums by conservatives, as I have by lefties.  I guess I'm an equal opportunity offender.  i also won't take sh*t, nor tolerate absuse, either.  I also won't tolerate people who are little Hitlers (left or right wing)).

 

So, RIP FT.  I knew it would be gone eventually.   Either that, or the left leaning or right leaning folks would leave.   There are a whole lotta people out there talking a good game on "tolerance", who are also the first one's to say "ban him!", "get rid of her", "don't allow that kind of talk here". 

 

It's un-American, period.  Free speech has value.   Monitored and censored speech is destructive.  It's destructive to moral, crushes the soul, and divides communities.   Oh, yeah, I've heard all that buzz about "this is a private (business, forum, whatever), and free speech only applies to public places, government places".   That's B.S..  Speech is either free, or it's not.  Offensive speech is the risk requried of a free society.    As a Christian conservative, for example, I hate pornography (well, it's kind of attractive, sometimes, and I hate that about myself, but .... well maybe a bad example. ).  However, I'd never join folks arguing for a ban on it.  Now, ban it in a public library, keep it away from juveniles, yeah, certainly.   Underage stuff.  Certanily.  However, that's not the same thing as banning porn outright.  Porn is part of the cost of a free society, and I don't have a good counter-argument that says "but this isn't really allowable in free society", without having no free society.

 

Appreciate the mods and all they do.  Disagree with closing F.T., but there is also merit in trying to restrain the topics to "BMW Motorcycles and things their riders do", to keep bmwst.com alive. 

[Paul De]

13 hours ago, Dennis Andress said:

You are sound asleep when you feel ... something ... on the bed. You open your eyes to see the closet where you usually park your vacuum-cleaning trained Little Dog. The door is open - it shouldn't be - and suddenly you realize what is on the bed. Turning your head you find the LD by your shoulder, perceiving you. It lifts a leg and __________ (finish the story.)

starts to lick in only places a dog can.  You tell the dog to get down onto its cushion bedside the bed where it belongs. You do this not because you don’t love LD, but because as the master you don’t want the poor pooch to be confused and think it is your equal, or worse that LD is the pack leader.
 

Moral of the story; if you aren’t the pack leader, the view never changes.

[Paul De]

Lead the pack Mr. Andress 

[Dennis Andress]

45 minutes ago, Scott9999 said:

I was once the moderator on a newpaper/baseball site.  .....

Have you tried 4Chan? I'm sure there is a place there you'd fit. As for this board, I must ask you to leave.

[realshelby]

Free speech was regulated by fist fights before the internet. Didn't mean the person that was most truthful didn't get a black eye. But it DID make the bully in the room think twice before attacking again........

 

In todays world we are all cage fighters when at the keyboard. 

 

And that is exactly why we don't need forums with no rules...  This forum was and is the best mannered I have ever been part of. Yet still Full Throttle not only pushed the extremist boundaries way past common sense, it stands to reason it caused members to not want to meet some of those on it. 

 

 

[TEWKS]

8 minutes ago, Dennis Andress said:

Have you tried 4Chan? I'm sure there is a place there you'd fit. As for this board, I must ask you to leave.

Now that sounds a bit extreme but, I think you’re joking. I liked his post. 

[Paul De]

This is a privately owned website and as such the free speech and censorship argument is irrelevant.  They who own it make up the rules, particularly when this website is not on the scale of one of the biggie social media sites.  The only other way I can see FT coincide with DA's vision for BMWST is to maybe require a second level of membership for FT, with plenty of warnings that you might get offended once in while. Not for the more polite among us etc.  Maybe even make the next level come with a nominal paid fee to join FT and those fees are use cover the cost of some poor person to keep the most egregious broken rules stuff out.  I donno, maybe FT being dead and gone is in the end better for all the reasons I outline in the what it is thread.

[Rougarou]

2 minutes ago, Paul De said:

The only other way I can see FT coincide with DA's vision for BMWST is to maybe require a second level of membership for FT, with plenty of warnings that you might get offended once in while. Not for the more polite among us etc.  

 

Whip thunk of that when he created FT:

 

Quote

 

You must have thick skin to participate and realize no matter what you believe the facts are someone is a gonna disagree with you. 

 

If you have banned, blocked or unfriended people on Facebook because they disagree with you this may not be the place for you.

 

 

[Paul De]

Haha, yes so few ideas, discoveries or inventions are truly original...but I did add the fee based membership.  In America, everyone gets to run their mouth, but on BMWST FT, it'll cost you.

[Hosstage]

For those arguing that free speech is being suppressed and censorship is being practiced here, you are right. This is a privately owned forum, just like your house. If one of your guests started in with some offensive speech in your house, especially if directed at your wife, other family or guests, I'm pretty sure that censorship will be practiced. Along with bouncing out the door skills.

[Paul De]

5 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Whip thunk of that when he created FT:

Haha, yes so few ideas, discoveries, or inventions are truly original...but I did add the fee based membership.  In America, everyone gets to run their mouth, but on BMWST FT, it'll cost you.

 

 

Oops somehow I duplicated this comment in an edit to add the quote....sorry

[Rougarou]

5 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

For those arguing that free speech is being suppressed and censorship is being practiced here, you are right. This is a privately owned forum, just like your house. If one of your guests started in with some offensive speech in your house, especially if directed at your wife, other family or guests, I'm pretty sure that censorship will be practiced. Along with bouncing out the door skills.

 

I don't think its about free speech at all.

[Dennis Andress]

16 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

Now that sounds a bit extreme but, I think you’re joking. I liked his post. 

And you didn’t pay attention a few days ago when I said easy is seldom worthwhile. 

[TEWKS]

We’ve been schooled on how America is a Democracy, let’s have a poll on keeping, or axing FT. The results will be final, no need to discuss it anymore. 

[TEWKS]

4 minutes ago, Dennis Andress said:

And you didn’t pay attention a few days ago when I said easy is seldom worthwhile. 

We had a new fire chief a few years back and his first order of business was to fire somebody. He did, it was done to show he was in charge. He had a miserable tenure as chief of the department. 

[Dennis Andress]

I want something better than FT. If you want it back then take over as owner when I quit. 

[marcopolo]

I never felt there was any place on this Board for Full Throttle. There are countless places online to engage in the topics that show up in FT. Why do we need it here?. To me, it never added anything positive to the Board. Call me crazy, but why wouldn’t BMWST concentrate on motorcycle- related topics, like it has for most of its existence?

[TEWKS]

1 minute ago, Dennis Andress said:

I want something better than FT. If you want it back then take over as owner when I quit. 

I’m too shy and bashful, (17+ thousand posts)  (how the heck did that happen)  to be eligible for such a job. 

[Dennis Andress]

I clearly said that this thread is about what we want to become, not what we were. Scott999 didn’t want to do that, and wrote some vitriol about I’m not sure what.  
 

We get about 50 new members a month, and almost none of them stick around. I’m betting that without FT , and the attitudes that it bread, some will stick around and sooner or later we’ll find another Pilgrim. 
 

Do you feel like finishing Pilgrim’s story? Maybe ask a kid to work on it together….

[Rougarou]

2 minutes ago, Dennis Andress said:

 

 I’m betting that without FT , and the attitudes that it bread,

 

Where did these attitudes show up besides FT.  I read damn near all the new posts and I dunno where this is coming from.  From what I've seen, FT stayed in FT.

[TEWKS]

41 minutes ago, Dennis Andress said:

 

Do you feel like finishing Pilgrim’s story? Maybe ask a kid to work on it together….

I’m much more of an amateur poet vs a story teller.  Not in @bendbill ‘s league mind you but I try.

 

It was your decision and yours alone but I’m here to tell you, you can never go home.

 

Things in the past always seem so much better and bright, but you have to remember they will eventually fade from your sight. 

 

Like the constitution and your own recipe for life it’s wise to remember them to keep things right. 

 

There’s room for change here and there but if you go too far it will only create fear. 

 

Our founding fathers for the most part got it right with only a few exceptions things were looking bright.

 

With the closing of the forum a collective voice is now gone, maybe it could have been an important thought but it will be silenced from now on. 

 

Time will tell if it was the right thing to do and yeah it’s too bad Pilgrim wasn’t around to guide us through.

 

 

 

 

[Dennis Andress]

30 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

 

Where did these attitudes show up besides FT.  I read damn near all the new posts and I dunno where this is coming from.  From what I've seen, FT stayed in FT.

Marty Hill saying "I can't believe this is here. I'm leaving" How many others? We wave at motorcycles when we are out riding without a care about what they are riding (except in Cali). Why does this motorcycle discussion board sound unwelcoming to riders who don't fit the mold of FT?

 

[Rougarou]

1 minute ago, Dennis Andress said:

Marty Hill saying "I can't believe this is here. I'm leaving" How many others? We wave at motorcycles when we are out riding without a care about what they are riding (except in Cali). Why does this motorcycle discussion board sound unwelcoming to riders who don't fit the mold of FT?

 

 

FT has no mold.  It was a bring what you bring forum with clear warning of the type of threads that would be produced, an enter at your own sensitivities type of forum,.......and in the big scheme of things, fairly light on the "harshness" that I'm accustomed to.

 

This board will be small in comparison to others, and what's wrong with that?  Why the need to recruit new members?  Those that want to stay, will stay, some will lurk forever sucking in the information the board provides.  Nothing in my opinion, brings more "get to know you" atmospherics than a smaller sized grouping. 

 

Look at FT when many folks left that forum, not the board, but that forum,......place a date on it.  It's my guess that due to an election that took place, many left FT, some left due to a 2016 election (shortly after FTs creation) and some left due to a 2020 election.  Many continued posting on other forums on this board, some took it all the way out.   Some left because of a perception of the individual typing--maybe it wasn't the type of individual they had initially perceived.

 

Their may be a large amount of users that lurk in FT, but their postings and expertise lie in the other forums on the board where they do actually post.  Some like to read FT for the "action", some of those lurkers prolly like it, but didn't want to get involved.  Others don't like it for their own reasons.

 

FT provides as much motorcycle information as "Riders Discuss Other Topics", yet, here we are. 

 

 

 

 

You started this on a "what do we want to become",......with 40% of the action taking place in FT, what the board will become is less trafficked by it's current base as there's only so much oil, tires, batteries, filters and farkles that one can re-hash, least with FT, it covers the ever changing current events......just my NSWAG on it.  

 

I know, I jumped around a bit.

 

 

[TEWKS]

IIRC it was jimwms that bailed at the opening of FT. Marty left (IMO) only after seeing the groups center / right lean. 
 

Same with most of the discussions in FT, left leaning people didn’t enjoy them because all of country’s left policies have been complete and utter failures. Hard to debate and defend them.  

[Hosstage]

13 minutes ago, Dennis Andress said:

 

 

Marty Hill saying "I can't believe this is here. I'm leaving" How many others? We wave at motorcycles when we are out riding without a care about what they are riding (except in Cali). Why does this motorcycle discussion board sound unwelcoming to riders who don't fit the mold of FT?

50 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

 

Where did these attitudes show up besides FT.  I read damn near all the new posts and I dunno where this is coming from.  From what I've seen, FT stayed in FT.

 

I personally reported posts in other sections where FT had obviously bled over into the discussion. 

I just don't feel FT added anything to BMWST as far as the attitude of the site goes.

And while it can be said that FT stayed in FT, members could, and can, still see it. This brings up questions of what the site stands for, what it is trying to accomplish.

When I joined, no politics allowed, and I liked that. The non-motorcycle threads that were allowed were generally light-hearted and informative of many subjects that people find interesting. Constant posts about how much the other political party sucks started to add nothing. Hammering people about vax or no vax added nothing.

Yes, there were some meaningful and informative posts, but it honestly had degraded into "no, you are", and "I can't believe you think he's doing a good job."

It may have been fun for the ones that participated mostly in it, but it really had gotten mean spirited, and people are that. When it is allowed, leadership gets questioned, the value of the site gets questioned.