BMW MOA

[TEDZ]

I've had great benefit from the MOA Classified buying and selling and took advantage of the Dunlop rebate.

I regard it as a casual collection of BMW owners.

[RadioFlyer]

I've been voicing my views here and on other forums about the lack of action by the BMWMOA when it comes to defending the interests of BMW motorcycle owners in the face of negative impacting BMW policies and practices such as the decision to discontinue service information. I get a lot of blowback on the MOA forum about how the MOA isn't equipped to play this role.

Here is something that I recently posted (I have taken to capitalizing OWNERS to emphasize that is the name of the club and the interests of OWNERS should be at the forefront):

"In this and other threads where I have suggested that the MOA could do more to further the interests of OWNERS when they are impacted negatively by BMW policies and practices there has been a tendency by others to go on about what the MOA is not and what it can't do. It doesn't have lawyers, it isn't a lobbyist, it isn't a union, it doesn't have staff etc. I have not suggested that it be any of these things nor that it do anything resource intensive. These are all a kind of a boogeyman meant to overdramatize the implications of doing more on OWNERS' behalf. It need not be anything of the sort.

Let's say that there is some BMW policy or practice that a significant number of OWNERS feel is of concern and would like to see mitigated. A letter is drafted from the President to BMW. The letter explains the issue and explains the negative impacts. It could offer some suggestions for mitigation. It is not accusatory but it is firm. It does not threaten repercussions. It explains how mitigation would be of mutual benefit. It reminds BMW of what and who the MOA represents. It is a professional letter. The letter is an open letter. It appears on the MOA website, in this forum and on the MOA Facebook page. It is sent to all the clubs chapters and to BMW Clubs International. OWNERS share the letter in BMW-related online fora. Perhaps the charter clubs and discuss it and send letters of support. Perhaps clubs not chartered come to see it and write their own letters. Word spreads.

BMW receives the letter. They see that it is thoughtfully written by people whose opinions matter to them. They recognize that the MOA is an influencer with the potential to shape opinions beyond its own membership and must be taken seriously. They recognize that the letter has received wide circulation and surmise that their response will likely also receive wide circulation (and of course MOA will see to it that it does). They weigh their options and identify courses of action to minimize blowback.

Perhaps BMW offers concessions. Perhaps they hold firm. That's ok. You can't win them all. But BMW will have learned that it can't count on MOA neutrality and take brand loyalty for granted. The next time a similar letter is written and the time after that BMW sees the MOA in a new light. Because the correspondence is polite and professional it does no damage to cordial relations because the people at BMW are professionals and respect that, like themselves, organizations pursue the interests of their stakeholders. Work on pursuits of mutual benefit continues.

Meanwhile OWNERS see the MOA as representing their interests. Non-members see more added value in becoming members. The MOA gains new relevancy.

I think that it's worth a try and that the OWNERS deserve nothing less."

 

[RadioFlyer]

Actually if one reads up on this whole BMW heated car seats fiasco one learns that it is part of a larger shift to the provision of built-in features on a subscription basis. This seems to be the latest anti-consumer move. Build in lots of equipment and only enable its operation if the customer subscribes to use it paying a monthly fee. In BMW's case it is accomplished using the ConnectedDrive system in cars.

The motorcycles will likely follow enabled by BMW's ConnectedRide. Paying on a monthly basis for heated seats, heated grips, navigation, music, adaptive cruise control, dynamic suspension, adaptive lighting, heads up displays and just about anything else that can be remotely controlled is certainly within the realm of possibilities.

Future bikes will likely be part of the BMW Borg ("Resistance is Futile" is already being sounded by some BMWMOA members).

Could this be why service information is being locked down by BMW? Minimizing information on equipment, diagnostics and anything technical would certainly work to minimize the potential for BMW's absolute control over the cars and bikes functionality being compromised.

[RTinNC]

I understand your perspective and view and your approach seem reasonable whereby the leaders of the MOA send a letter to the leadership of BMW Motorrad NA.  Regardless of whether it is received in a positive way is a crap shoot.  BUT ... that approach seems as though it should be directed to the leadership of the MOA and not the members.   In addition your primary issue seems to be the recent decision by BMW Motorrad to no longer provide the detailed service manuals to the public.  But here is something to consider .... 1) how big is this issue really?  How many BMW motorcycle owners use or even want a copy of the detailed service manual ?  I suspect that may be a smaller % or BMW owner than you might expect.  Does that make it right probably not.  I understand the principle you are upset about.  2) BMW motorcycles (and cars) and many other vehicles these days are so high tech and computer driven that even with the service manual an individual could not perform most of the more technical repairs without the costly computer equipment.  3) the newer (i.e. younger) BMW owners are probably not going to be doing very technical repairs that require the Service Manual.  Honestly none of my BMW riding buddies (probably about a dozen) have never owned a technical service manual.  We all do the basic service ..oil changes, Final Drive changes,  Brake Fluid swap, Filters, etc. but anything beyond that we rely on our local dealer.   That is the same with most 4-wheel vehicles today as well.   I used to do a LOT more repairs on my cars and trucks than I do today.  Why ... vehicles today are way to technical and require computer equipment.  Unfortunately that is the way of the future.  They call it "progress" ...hmmm I am not so sure. 

 

As far as your comment about auto accessories via subscription ... That too is a way of the future and I have been hearing about this for a few years now well before he recent announcement by BMW.   Yes I think it stinks!   But if you think about it from the manufacturer perspective it makes a lot of sense ... build all the vehicles one way with all the features "available" and then let the buyer decide what they want to subscribe to.   Heck 10 years ago who would have thought we'd be subscribing to multiple streaming service for TV viewing. 

 

The best way to show our displeasure for these practices is to vote with our wallets.   You seem to really dislike BMW .... so buy other brands!    Seriously, there are brands I will not buy because of their business practices.  I am NOT at all happy with BMW Motorcycles no longer supporting an individual GPS and I do not want my phone plugged into the bike.  As a result I am looking at other models without the mandate for Connectride or to other brands of motorcycle that are not as high tech as the BMWs.   We all have the freedom to choose.  I do suspect someday all options with be similar to where BMW is headed but for now we have other options.   

 

Heck just buy an Airhead ... they run forever!  

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, RTinNC said:

  In addition your primary issue seems to be the recent decision by BMW Motorrad to no longer provide the detailed service manuals to the public.  But here is something to consider .... 1) how big is this issue really?  How many BMW motorcycle owners use or even want a copy of the detailed service manual ?  I suspect that may be a smaller % or BMW owner than you might expect.  Does that make it right probably not.  I understand the principle you are upset about.  2) BMW motorcycles (and cars) and many other vehicles these days are so high tech and computer driven that even with the service manual an individual could not perform most of the more technical repairs without the costly computer equipment.  3) the newer (i.e. younger) BMW owners are probably not going to be doing very technical repairs that require the Service Manual.  Honestly none of my BMW riding buddies (probably about a dozen) have never owned a technical service manual.  We all do the basic service ..oil changes, Final Drive changes,  Brake Fluid swap, Filters, etc. but anything beyond that we rely on our local dealer.   That is the same with most 4-wheel vehicles today as well.   I used to do a LOT more repairs on my cars and trucks than I do today.  Why ... vehicles today are way to technical and require computer equipment.  Unfortunately that is the way of the future.  They call it "progress" ...hmmm I am not so sure. 

 

Afternoon  RTinNC

 

I know this isn't addressed to me but I have something to add or address with your service manual paragraph.

 

It is true that a lot of riders don't need a manual, or would not even use a manual if they had one, as the required work or tools is above their pay grade. 

 

But there are a number of web sites like this one that BMW riders go to to inquire IF they even have a problem, or if something needs attention, or even how something is SUPPOSED to operate. (I) / (WE) need that darn manual to be able to help these riders. Others on this site need a manual to understand the service procedures to help other BMW riders. Independents need a service manual to help riders that can't get their motorcycle to a dealer 500-800 or more miles away. 

 

Those BMW riders that CAN do their own repairs & have proper tools & expertise need the RIGHT-TO-REPAIR  same a JohnDeere tractors & other modern machines. 

 

If BMW is going to force riders to go to dealers for repairs, or even basic service info, then they darn well better start opening repair facilities in all states with less than 200 mile access. 

 

The BMW GS is supposed to be an around the world motorcycle, without a service manual or a repair facility within 500 miles that is NOT an around the world motorcycle, it is a Starbucks show prop.   

 

[RTinNC]

19 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon  RTinNC

 

I know this isn't addressed to me but I have something to add or address with your service manual paragraph.

 

It is true that a lot of riders don't need a manual, or would not even use a manual if they had one, as the required work or tools is above their pay grade. 

 

But there are a number of web sites like this one that BMW riders go to to inquire IF they even have a problem, or if something needs attention, or even how something is SUPPOSED to operate. (I) / (WE) need that darn manual to be able to help these riders. Others on this site need a manual to understand the service procedures to help other BMW riders. Independents need a service manual to help riders that can't get their motorcycle to a dealer 500-800 or more miles away. 

 

Those BMW riders that CAN do their own repairs & have proper tools & expertise need the RIGHT-TO-REPAIR  same a JohnDeere tractors & other modern machines. 

 

If BMW is going to force riders to go to dealers for repairs, or even basic service info, then they darn well better start opining repair facilities in all states with less than 200 mile access. 

 

The BMW GS is supposed to be an around the world motorcycle, without a service manual or a repair facility within 500 miles that is NOT an around the world motorcycle, it is a Starbucks show prop.   

 

Dirtrider ...I totally agree with you but would suggest that number of folks looking for information in the manual is significantly less than you might believe.   In addition in the future that number will continue to shrink.   Honestly I don't have an answer to your comment about folks living 300+ miles from a dealer.   It that were me and I had no accessible service option for a motorcycle or vehicle for that matter I would switch to a brand where there was a dealer closer.   BMW is a business and if they can't make enough profit and the owner of the dealership can't make enough from a location they will not maintain that location.   I don't like it any more than you do but that is where the world is headed.  Fortunately for 4-wheel vehicles they need less and less periodic maintenance and they are more dependable than ever.   That being said If I lived 500 miles from  a Ford Dealer and I had a Chevy dealer in my town ...I'd probably buy a Chevy or bit the bullet and drive the 500 miles for a repair.  You and I are in agreement of what SHOULD be but that does not make it what WILL be.   As I've continued to say we can only vote with our dollars. 

 

Oh ... and regarding your comment about the GS ... HA !!   The original GS was truly what you suggest but the current GS is far from that ride around the world and repair on the side of the road motorcycle.  THAT today would be the KLR or Yamaha T700.   That is what the GS began as but today it has morphed into more of a touring motorcycle that can take on some unpaved roads.  The guys who buy them are not GS Giants but rather guys like me who want to tour on a great handling motorcycle that we can load up to the max and if we want ride an unpaved road.   Look at the tires the GS comes with from the factory ... they are street tires.   Look at the features and "bling" the GS's not come with ... that is not a bike I would cross a stream on.   Like it or not the world is changing and our best option is vote with our pocket books. 

[RadioFlyer]

Many have bought into the image of the GS as an adventure motorcycle and there is certainly truth to the suggestion that it has become too delicate and complicated to live up to that image. If one has a  breakdown one had better be within towing distance of a dealership and not in the boonies. Those who live in places far from BMW's sparsely situated dealerships are similarly at a disadvantage for any of the models. Making the service information economically inaccessible disadvantages those people and the independent techs who might otherwise fill the void.

 

There are advantages to doing your own maintenance. You get familiar with your bike and are better equipped to deal with technical issues when they arise. If you are competent you have assurance that the work done was done correctly.

 

But perhaps we are a dying breed and "appliance riders" will be all there are. 

[RTinNC]

3 hours ago, RadioFlyer said:

Many have bought into the image of the GS as an adventure motorcycle and there is certainly truth to the suggestion that it has become too delicate and complicated to live up to that image. If one has a  breakdown one had better be within towing distance of a dealership and not in the boonies. Those who live in places far from BMW's sparsely situated dealerships are similarly at a disadvantage for any of the models. Making the service information economically inaccessible disadvantages those people and the independent techs who might otherwise fill the void.

 

There are advantages to doing your own maintenance. You get familiar with your bike and are better equipped to deal with technical issues when they arise. If you are competent you have assurance that the work done was done correctly.

 

But perhaps we are a dying breed and "appliance riders" will be all there are. 

Once again we are in agreement.  I love doing the maintenance the I can do and even my OCD cleaning and accessory installations help me become familiar and more "at one" with my motorcycle. But as you noted the cost of independent shops acquiring the equipment to properly diagnose and repair complex issues on todays vehicles continues to make it more and more difficult.   A prime example is for year we owned 2 Saabs and loved them both.  We have a shop here in Charlotte that still focuses on Saab repair called the Swedish Garage.  When I asked them why they don't also repair Volvos they replied "because the equipment and computers we'd need are just to expensive to make it worth the cost.  THAT is becoming more and more of an issue.   I have read the reviews of the Yamaha T700 and one of the key selling points is that it is not loaded with a lot of high tech components.  It is simple by design and works well.  Just as Long Haul Paul.   The new Ducati Multistrada is in the same boat ... adaptive cruise, 360 degree camera, blind spot monitors, adaptive headlights .... would someone really thrash one through the mud and crud at over $25K !!  Not me that's for sure. 

 

The world is changing for sure! 

[Ponch]

On 8/19/2022 at 8:47 AM, RadioFlyer said:

I note that you did not provide any examples of when the MOA was at odds with BMW on behalf of its members.

 

Here is a link to the MOA member benefits. I invite you to consider how many of these would be entirely possible even if the MOA was not tied to BMW.

https://www.bmwmoa.org/general/custom.asp?page=memberbenefits

 

The BMW Clubs International website hosts the guidelines the member clubs are to adhere to. You should avail yourself of them as a member of the MOA to see what the MOA has agreed to in exchange for use of the roundel. BMW Clubs International is funded and supported by BMW and BMW has four seats on its Council.

 

BMW clubs are to:
- convey the brand message
- disseminate the BMW ideal to all corners of the world with exceptional commitment and a correspondingly broad impact
- be guided by BMW standards in the image they convey to the public
- publicly endorse the BMW image
- promote the dissemination and application of the corporate philosophy and of information on BMW products and services
- carry out a liaison between the BMW Group and the public
- support dealerships whenever new models are introduced
- help break down the disparity in values between the BMW Group and the public
- be regarded as a PR medium and a channel of communication

 

Essentially the MOA is an extension of the BMW public relations/marketing machinery.

 

 

 

As a member, I am surprised I haven't been excommunicated yet. 

[RadioFlyer]

Excellent letter in the September 2022 BMW ON magazine. It does not look like the MOA will take this up on behalf of its members though.

 

 

[wbw6cos]

When I read threads about this, I often wonder what does the owner actually need from the FSM that they cannot find online anyhow?   

 

I am not trying to be negative as I truly want to understand.  This is a respectful inquiry, so please do not take this the wrong way.

 

I mean, with the likes of dirtrider, Boxflyer, and many others providing good information pertaining to service, I find it strange that working on your bike should not be to difficult without the factory service manual.  There are many videos online that give a person an idea on how to approach an issue, but some of those can be skewed with mis-information.   To be sure, you need to do the research and make sure the source is reliable enough.

[RTinNC]

2 hours ago, wbw6cos said:

When I read threads about this, I often wonder what does the owner actually need from the FSM that they cannot find online anyhow?   

 

I am not trying to be negative as I truly want to understand.  This is a respectful inquiry, so please do not take this the wrong way.

 

I mean, with the likes of dirtrider, Boxflyer, and many others providing good information pertaining to service, I find it strange that working on your bike should not be to difficult without the factory service manual.  There are many videos online that give a person an idea on how to approach an issue, but some of those can be skewed with mis-information.   To be sure, you need to do the research and make sure the source is reliable enough.

I have a similar perspective.  I do a lot of the simple maintenance on my 2 BMWs such as fluid changes, filter changes, spark plugs, etc.  in addition I install most of my own farkles and never have I once needed or thought I needed a factory service manual. I still feel I am at one with my bikes and feel a bond with them.  I think it’s a pretty small minority who ever actually need or use the factory service manual. And if they need to perform a repair that requires a factory service manual they most likely do not have the computer equipment to do so.  We’re talking about 2023+ BMWs not airheads or oilheads.  Unfortunately those days are history.  But if that’s the path you prefer then absolutely you’d be much better served with a Tenere 700 or KLR.

[TSConver]

9 minutes ago, RTinNC said:

I have a similar perspective.  I do a lot of the simple maintenance on my 2 BMWs such as fluid changes, filter changes, spark plugs, etc.  in addition I install most of my own farkles and never have I once needed or thought I needed a factory service manual. I still feel I am at one with my bikes and feel a bond with them.  I think it’s a pretty small minority who ever actually need or use the factory service manual. And if they need to perform a repair that requires a factory service manual they most likely do not have the computer equipment to do so.  We’re talking about 2023+ BMWs not airheads or oilheads.  Unfortunately those days are history.  But if that’s the path you prefer then absolutely you’d be much better served with a Tenere 700 or KLR.

 

GS911 Will do most of the required things to the computer system.  Many of us on here have one.

[RTinNC]

11 minutes ago, TSConver said:

 

GS911 Will do most of the required things to the computer system.  Many of us on here have one.

And those of us who don’t have one know someone who does 

[Motorhead1977]

Having the FSM provides among a myriad of other things the ability to have step by step instructions for the removal and install of body panels including what fastening methods are used so clip in mounting tabs are not broken in the process.  It's also an indispensable guide to the routing of wiring and hoses etc which can be absolutely necessary when adding farkles or other things like auxiliary lights. That's all in addition to the more complex service that many of us would choose to perform but for our inability to obtain the FSM. The fact that others don't see the need doesn't mean it's not there. That's my $.02

[9Mary7]

On 8/21/2022 at 12:00 PM, RTinNC said:

that ride around the world and repair on the side of the road motorcycle.

Ural????

[RTinNC]

1 hour ago, 9Mary7 said:

Ural????

I’m sure they’ll give you a FSM 

[Dave_in_TX]

14 hours ago, wbw6cos said:

When I read threads about this, I often wonder what does the owner actually need from the FSM that they cannot find online anyhow?   

 

I am not trying to be negative as I truly want to understand.  This is a respectful inquiry, so please do not take this the wrong way.

 

I mean, with the likes of dirtrider, Boxflyer, and many others providing good information pertaining to service, I find it strange that working on your bike should not be to difficult without the factory service manual.  There are many videos online that give a person an idea on how to approach an issue, but some of those can be skewed with mis-information.   To be sure, you need to do the research and make sure the source is reliable enough.

Can't speak for Dirtriddr or Boxflyer but some of those providing information got their knowledge from the FSM.

[BMW_Ken]

17 hours ago, wbw6cos said:

When I read threads about this, I often wonder what does the owner actually need from the FSM that they cannot find online anyhow?   

 

I am not trying to be negative as I truly want to understand.  This is a respectful inquiry, so please do not take this the wrong way.

 

I mean, with the likes of dirtrider, Boxflyer, and many others providing good information pertaining to service, I find it strange that working on your bike should not be to difficult without the factory service manual.  There are many videos online that give a person an idea on how to approach an issue, but some of those can be skewed with mis-information.   To be sure, you need to do the research and make sure the source is reliable enough.

I would think that most all of the model specific information available online from sources like Boxflyer and Dirtrider originates from a factory service manual.  

 

When new models come out that are technically different, where will these folks get the specific torques, procedures, etc. if there are no factory service manuals available?

 

I think this is the more concerning issue going forward.

[Motorhead1977]

20 minutes ago, BMW_Ken said:

I would think that most all of the model specific information available online from sources like Boxflyer and Dirtrider originates from a factory service manual.  

 

When new models come out that are technically different, where will these folks get the specific torques, procedures, etc. if there are no factory service manuals available?

 

I think this is the more concerning issue going forward.

Or even where there is an update or superceding data. The FSM was updateable.

[Ponch]

On 9/25/2022 at 2:51 PM, RTinNC said:

I have a similar perspective.  I do a lot of the simple maintenance on my 2 BMWs such as fluid changes, filter changes, spark plugs, etc.  in addition I install most of my own farkles and never have I once needed or thought I needed a factory service manual. I still feel I am at one with my bikes and feel a bond with them.  I think it’s a pretty small minority who ever actually need or use the factory service manual. And if they need to perform a repair that requires a factory service manual they most likely do not have the computer equipment to do so.  We’re talking about 2023+ BMWs not airheads or oilheads.  Unfortunately those days are history.  But if that’s the path you prefer then absolutely you’d be much better served with a Tenere 700 or KLR.

 

Torque specs are one thing the manual will have. Sometimes there are special notes that are important and things like adjusting valves, it's nice to have a manual to at least show how it is supposed to be done. 

[Ponch]

there's a whole thing on the MOA FB group about this and supposedly the manuals can be accessed online for a fee and it's time based, meaning 24 hours, a week, a month etc. If true, one could use Snagit and a 24hr subscription. 

 

I just look at it as one more decision by BMW that's not customer centric. Dealers are their real customers, not us. We're the dealer's customers. In a BMW Corp perfect world, everyone that owns a BMW would use the dealers for all service and repairs and we'd trade our bikes every 3-4 years. They have different priorities than I do. 

[RadioFlyer]

6 hours ago, Ponch said:

there's a whole thing on the MOA FB group about this and supposedly the manuals can be accessed online for a fee and it's time based, meaning 24 hours, a week, a month etc. If true, one could use Snagit and a 24hr subscription. 

 

I just look at it as one more decision by BMW that's not customer centric. Dealers are their real customers, not us. We're the dealer's customers. In a BMW Corp perfect world, everyone that owns a BMW would use the dealers for all service and repairs and we'd trade our bikes every 3-4 years. They have different priorities than I do. 

If you are referring to the FB post that I think you are then you will find buried in the comments that the ultimate result of the MOA President and Consumer Liaison's fact finding is that the service information for BMW motorcycles is in fact NOT on either the BMW TIS or AIRS systems. Looking at the MOA's forum it looks like the MOA Consumer Liaison did not receive a response to his inquiry with his BMW TIS contact and the thread there was left without correcting the misinformation about TIS availability.

[Lowndes]

After reading this entire thread, I have to say that it is a very good example of one of the reasons why this forum is so popular.  Specifically, the sane and adult tone that most have here when members disagree but discuss respectfully and find ways to agree on points.  That has to be a direct result of two components; the high calibre of the members in general plus the heritage/custom/tradition of being respectful that is somehow understood and maintained here by members and moderators.     

[wbw6cos]

Can't we all just get along?  

[JamesW]

I have an FSM for my '93 BMW and imo it is not much good especially when I compare it to the FSM on my '10 FJR which cost about 40 bucks less than the BMW FSM and puts it to shame. Talk about a quality publication, it's beautifully written.   I didn't buy the BMW FSM the original owner did I bought the Haynes manual which I mostly use NOT the FSM.  I can't see that an FSM for one of the newer BMW high tech wonders would do you much good anyway.

 

 

[Motorhead1977]

I currently have the use of a "borrowed" copy of the 1200RS FSM and even that one has proved invaluable in the various installs/upgrades I have made to my 1250RS.  I had the FSM for my previous 2018 R1200RT and that manual permitted me to perform valve adjustments and the like with complete confidence as the disassembly/assembly procedures as well as the actual maintenance functions were a gold mine.  I would not have ventured there without the FSM and been forced to lay out significant $$$ to the dealer for a service I easily performed in my garage at home. (Yes I have a fairly extensive set of tools and testing equipment plus mechanical knowledge that I have gathered up over the last 50+ years of motorcycle and automobile ownership/service/maintenance.)

[Bud]

I parted ways with the MOA due to a complete lack of financial transparency along with the fact that board members have to sign a non-disclosure agreement to be on the board.

 

I think the members of a membership organization should know how much the Ex-Dir, ON Editor and other staff are paid.

 

Non-disclosure agreements are usually used when something is going to be kept secret. Can not imagine who wants there to be secrets and why they should be hidden from members who pay the freight.

 

While they had 30,000+ members a few years ago, I'm told that the current membership number is well below 30,000

 

YMMV

[RadioFlyer]

I am also disturbed by the non-disclosure of the arrangements the MOA has with the BMW Clubs International which is co-founded and funded by BMW and has BMW employees amongst its voting members. The BMW Clubs International guidelines to clubs relegate and bind them to being extensions of BMW's public relations machinery. The MOA declines to advance the interests of its members if it means having to express opposition or objection to a BMW policy or practice.

[RTinNC]

I guess I never have looked that deeply into the inner workings of the MOA.  For me I decide if I feel the value I get from my membership fee is worth the cost.  Since I began riding BMWs in 2000 I have always felt the money spent was well worth it for the magazine,  the roadside assistance and tire coverage and the other discounts including saving me $750 twice on a the purchase of a new BMW.  In addition I enjoy the National Rally which is still a bargain cost and the access to the MOA forums and the information I get there.   But that's just me and as always YMMV !! 

[Motorhead1977]

I posted this over at the MOA forums but on some additional thought think that I may get other points of view here. So, thoughts and impressions please:

"I've never been to the annual rally. I've read the program from this year and a lot of this thread but can't seem to find anything to indicate if the local club(s), or anyone else for that matter, will be providing information on good riding routes in the rally area or is the rally essentially a large "trade show" type of event? I know I could get out my maps and study them for possible routes but IMHO routes suggested by local folks usually provide the best riding. Just trying to get the most best information about the rally before I commit to spending the funds and vacation time on attending. In short, is the riding aspect of the rally the trip too and from the event and the focus of the rally is the seminars etc? TIA for positive input for all the never ever attendees out there."

[RTinNC]

As the Rally date draws closer there are usually posts and info on the MOA Site related to POI's along the way to the Rally Site and also suggested routes to and from the Rally.  There have also been lists of rides and POI's near the site. 

 

Much like many motorcycle events the MOA National can be different for each person and depends on your own interests.  The 3 days of the Rally are usually pretty full of things to do and see but for some they enjoy taking day rides in the area.   At the Rally check in you receive a LOT of information and details on what is happening and what you might want to do and see. 

[RadioFlyer]

The following is adapted from a post I made on the MOA Forum about the "discount" on new motorcycles.

 

What is portrayed as being a BMWMOA benefit is really something that BMW is just prepared to give because it knows the cost of customer acquisition through other means is higher than the "discount". An important metric for many companies in a competitive market is churn and the cost of acquisition. Churn measures what percentage of previous owners decide to replace their purchase with a competitor's product. The cost of acquisition measures all the money spent on promotion divided by the units sold. Giving a discount is cheap acquisition since its isn't really much of real expense - it's not as if BMW actually handed you cash. The benefit is more of a feel good. BMWMOA gets to claim a membership benefit, BMW gets a customer they might otherwise lose and the purchaser feels like they got a better deal. BMW doesn't require that the dealership prove that they sold the unit to a bonafide member because it need not care.

Post script #1
I should elaborate on why I say that this is a "feel good". I have mentioned churn as important metric. Other important metrics are percentage of market share and percentage sales growth year-over-year and of course profits. Someone in any given BMW market area (e.g. BMW NA) has the difficult job of determining the starting point for pricing - whether its the dealer's reduction thereto (if the dealer is permitted to do so, not always the case) or the various incentives, promotions and discount programs offered in the market area. The starting point is often cited as the MSRP. That someone has to strike a difficult balance. The higher the MSRP the higher the profits (all other things being equal).

But of course a higher MSRP brings the risk of losing new sales to competitors and increasing churn. Those tasked with setting the MSRP have to do a pretty extensive analysis involving the anticipated sales and post-sales revenue as well as sales volumes. I mentioned churn earlier because churn considers the customers that bought BMW motorcycles but then switched to another make at their next purchase. Repeat purchasers outnumber new purchasers.

Amongst repeat purchasers you will find owners who belong to a brand affinity club like the BMWMOA and its chartered clubs, as well that those who don't. Those who are in brand affinity clubs are members because they have formed an emotional attachment to the brand and the role of the clubs is to strengthen that emotional attachment.

When the analysts sit down to set the MRSP they have to consider how price sensitive the various potential purchasers are (ecomomists will call this demand elasticity). A new purchaser will probably be the most price sensitive (elastic) whereas repeat purchasers will probably be the least price sensitive (inelastic). Amongst the repeat customers those who participate in brand affinity clubs are the least price sensitive (most inelastic) of all (for the bikes, the service and the parts) because of their emotional attachment to the brand. Essentially they are willing to pay more because they find value in a lifestyle.

The analysts look at the willingness to pay across all the potential purchasers when they set MSRP. The higher the proportion of potential purchasers there are in the inelastic brand affinity category the more aggressive BMW can be in setting a higher MSRP. So perversely when we belong to the BMWMOA we contribute to BMW's ability to set a higher MSRP. Then we get to feel good when they offer us a "discount" when the purpose of the discount in part is to keep us in the brand affinity club. Like I said elsewhere here there is no free lunch.

The objective to increase market share tempers MSRP but getting that increased market share is really tough in NA because Harley dominates sales and its customers have really serious brand affinity to Harley. If you want to increase market share against Harley you need to offer inexpensive bikes to beginners (before Harley gets them) and hope that they become brand loyalists later on or imitate Harley by offering cruisers. The latter failed on its first attempt and the jury is out on the current attempt.
 

[Red]

On 9/30/2022 at 9:26 AM, wbw6cos said:

Can't we all just get along?  

Rodney King.  One of my favorite quotes!

[Hosstage]

2 hours ago, Red said:

Rodney King.  One of my favorite quotes!

Said under very stressful circumstances. 

[RTinNC]

21 hours ago, RadioFlyer said:

The following is adapted from a post I made on the MOA Forum about the "discount" on new motorcycles.

 

What is portrayed as being a BMWMOA benefit is really something that BMW is just prepared to give because it knows the cost of customer acquisition through other means is higher than the "discount". An important metric for many companies in a competitive market is churn and the cost of acquisition. Churn measures what percentage of previous owners decide to replace their purchase with a competitor's product. The cost of acquisition measures all the money spent on promotion divided by the units sold. Giving a discount is cheap acquisition since its isn't really much of real expense - it's not as if BMW actually handed you cash. The benefit is more of a feel good. BMWMOA gets to claim a membership benefit, BMW gets a customer they might otherwise lose and the purchaser feels like they got a better deal. BMW doesn't require that the dealership prove that they sold the unit to a bonafide member because it need not care.

Post script #1
I should elaborate on why I say that this is a "feel good". I have mentioned churn as important metric. Other important metrics are percentage of market share and percentage sales growth year-over-year and of course profits. Someone in any given BMW market area (e.g. BMW NA) has the difficult job of determining the starting point for pricing - whether its the dealer's reduction thereto (if the dealer is permitted to do so, not always the case) or the various incentives, promotions and discount programs offered in the market area. The starting point is often cited as the MSRP. That someone has to strike a difficult balance. The higher the MSRP the higher the profits (all other things being equal).

But of course a higher MSRP brings the risk of losing new sales to competitors and increasing churn. Those tasked with setting the MSRP have to do a pretty extensive analysis involving the anticipated sales and post-sales revenue as well as sales volumes. I mentioned churn earlier because churn considers the customers that bought BMW motorcycles but then switched to another make at their next purchase. Repeat purchasers outnumber new purchasers.

Amongst repeat purchasers you will find owners who belong to a brand affinity club like the BMWMOA and its chartered clubs, as well that those who don't. Those who are in brand affinity clubs are members because they have formed an emotional attachment to the brand and the role of the clubs is to strengthen that emotional attachment.

When the analysts sit down to set the MRSP they have to consider how price sensitive the various potential purchasers are (ecomomists will call this demand elasticity). A new purchaser will probably be the most price sensitive (elastic) whereas repeat purchasers will probably be the least price sensitive (inelastic). Amongst the repeat customers those who participate in brand affinity clubs are the least price sensitive (most inelastic) of all (for the bikes, the service and the parts) because of their emotional attachment to the brand. Essentially they are willing to pay more because they find value in a lifestyle.

The analysts look at the willingness to pay across all the potential purchasers when they set MSRP. The higher the proportion of potential purchasers there are in the inelastic brand affinity category the more aggressive BMW can be in setting a higher MSRP. So perversely when we belong to the BMWMOA we contribute to BMW's ability to set a higher MSRP. Then we get to feel good when they offer us a "discount" when the purpose of the discount in part is to keep us in the brand affinity club. Like I said elsewhere here there is no free lunch.

The objective to increase market share tempers MSRP but getting that increased market share is really tough in NA because Harley dominates sales and its customers have really serious brand affinity to Harley. If you want to increase market share against Harley you need to offer inexpensive bikes to beginners (before Harley gets them) and hope that they become brand loyalists later on or imitate Harley by offering cruisers. The latter failed on its first attempt and the jury is out on the current attempt.
 

WOW !   Thanks for the Business Economics 101 Class.   I will try to explain how my motorcycle purchase selection has worked for me (and I suspect others) keeping in mind we are talking about a totally discretionary purchase of a recreational product, at least in the USA.  When purchasing a motorcycle price is always a factor but only after I decide on what type or bike and sometimes model bike I prefer.   Having ridden for only just over 30 years (many here have more riding years for sure) and having owned 11 motorcycles across 4 of the major brands I have always purchased a bike where I like the style for reasons of looks, performance, safety, features, etc.   Of the 11 motorcycles I have owned 7 have been BMW and of the 7 BMWs four were purchased new from the same dealer here in NC.  For me one of the key factors that keep me BMW loyal is the dealer support and experience.  In addition to the dealer experience is the experience of ownership and the compatibility with other riders of the same brand.  For example when I started riding BMWs I became much more focused on safety and riding gear.  Before riding a BMW I was a kind of Harley "wannabee" wearing all black, 3/4 open face helmet and t-shirt in the summer.   Not long after owning my first BMW I learned and understood the benefits of a full face helmet, better gloves, riding pants, hi-viz clothing, etc.  Each bike I bought after my first BMW was because the bike "fit me" well and was comfortable and performed in the manner I preferred.  I have never paid MSRP for a new motorcycle but then I was never one who needed the latest and greatest bike.  I was always very happy with end of season deals.  But once again it gets back to the dealer who has always treated me fair. And to me "fair" means a good deal for me and still allowing the dealer to make a profit.  The $750 was always an after thought and a nice touch.  But I have never been totally driven to buy a motorcycle based on price alone.  If I could save $500 by buying a bike from a dealer 300 miles away I would still buy from my local dealer who I have done business with for years, who knows me and who understands me.   In motorcycling the dealership interaction is more of a relationship versus a transactional business.  But the benefit I get from the MOA, the BMWST, etc. is really from being able to commiserate with other like minded riders enjoying the same motorsport hobby.  It is no different than Porsche owners,  Corvette owners,  Mustang owners.   When the time comes to replace one or both of my 2 current BMWs I will take a hard look at what is available from all manufacturers and my purchase will be based on the BIKE and how it fits and works for ME.  Not about economics.  Economics only come into the decision once I have decided on the bike year, make and model I want to puchase and then I will always look to my local dealer first.   

 

So while your Business Econ 101 info in certainly valid in the classroom I would submit it may not always work in every purchasing decision especially with motorcycles. 

 

It certainly appears you have a very negative view on BMW Motorrad, the BMWMOA and the brand in general.  Maybe you would be happier on another brand.  Just sayin! 

 

As always YMMV and thanks for the valuable input. 

[MichiganBob]

Good Day All,

 

Here I go showing my age. I joined BMWOA in it's first year, 1972, thus my low member number (#369). I have had an on again off again relationship with this group out of nothing less than either being too lazy to continue membership, preoccupied with other stuff (e.g., raising a family, focusing on my career), or just not that interested. You get to keep your original number regardless of active membership. As I think back, there has always been internal politics and strife. I remember when BMWRA was formed and how that split the group and got pretty ugly. But I have always been on the periphery, never actively involved, so I haven't really earned a valid opinion. It's hard to know what's going on if your outside looking in. I enjoyed the mag for many years but then they just got stacked up. I continued to ride but the mag just didn't interest me anymore. The book is great and fortunately I never had to use it and no one ever contacted me who consulted the book. Any other benefits were not something I needed.

 

I'm not a joiner, at least not a very good one. That's why I could never be in a golf league. I don't like to have to be somewhere on some weekly interval. Same with BMWOA. I just don't see that need to join it again. It's also why I never remained in riding clubs for long.  Join it, don't join it, love it, hate it, try to change it, buy a Honda, it's all good. Now I have to get back to my 12K which is going well thanks to the fine people in these forums and the Youtubes that are available.

 

Ride safe brothers and sisters.

 

 

 

 

[RadioFlyer]

Actually my post had NOTHING to do with the purchase decision and I did not claim that it did. It was an explanation of the factors that are considered in the determination of MSRP and "discounts" offered to brand affinity clubs such as the BMW MOA. It underlines the irony that those who would be inclined to join the BMW MOA to realize this particular benefit (perhaps the only one attributable to BMW) simultaneously contribute to the MSRP being higher in the first instance. My post is consistent with the topic of this thread.

 

 

[Hosstage]

Never been a member of BMW MOA, but was a member of HOG for a few years at diferrent times, an automatic free membership for a year or two when purchasing a new Harley. I never paid to rejoin when the membership ran out. I never attended any events or really cared about it.

A guy I know was a member for years, knew all the local members, attended many dinner rides and other events over the years. Showed up one night for a dinner ride on his BMW because his Harley was down, they said nope, can't ride with us, even though we know you and obviously you have your actual membership card with you. He did not renew his membership.

  Like Groucho Marx said, I would never be part of a club that would have me as a member!

[Hosstage]

Besides, I'd probably be run out if I did join BMW MOA and attended a rally as I'd show up with no helmet, black t-shirt, worn out obnoxious mufflers, probably a little drunk, just an all around bad example. Pretty standard fare at Harley events so I fit right in there.

[RTinNC]

57 minutes ago, MichiganBob said:

Good Day All,

 

Here I go showing my age. I joined BMWOA in it's first year, 1972, thus my low member number (#369). I have had an on again off again relationship with this group out of nothing less than either being too lazy to continue membership, preoccupied with other stuff (e.g., raising a family, focusing on my career), or just not that interested. You get to keep your original number regardless of active membership. As I think back, there has always been internal politics and strife. I remember when BMWRA was formed and how that split the group and got pretty ugly. But I have always been on the periphery, never actively involved, so I haven't really earned a valid opinion. It's hard to know what's going on if your outside looking in. I enjoyed the mag for many years but then they just got stacked up. I continued to ride but the mag just didn't interest me anymore. The book is great and fortunately I never had to use it and no one ever contacted me who consulted the book. Any other benefits were not something I needed.

 

I'm not a joiner, at least not a very good one. That's why I could never be in a golf league. I don't like to have to be somewhere on some weekly interval. Same with BMWOA. I just don't see that need to join it again. It's also why I never remained in riding clubs for long.  Join it, don't join it, love it, hate it, try to change it, buy a Honda, it's all good. Now I have to get back to my 12K which is going well thanks to the fine people in these forums and the Youtubes that are available.

 

Ride safe brothers and sisters.

 

 

 

 

 

Michiganbob ... funny but I never realized there was all the internal politics taking place in the MOA as I am not what you'd call active at that level.  Not a "club" joiner and not a fan of large group rides.  I do enjoy the National event but attend at my own pace.  Don't belong to any local "clubs" ... heck I never realized here were local MOA chapters until recently. Just a member in good standing and enjoy the benefits they provide and the on-line support.  I do enjoy the magazine but recently had to start getting ride of my 25+ years of the Owners News.  I prefer the BMWST ART events.  But I do like to ride and meet and chat with other BMW folks.  My riding is the same ... with one or two buddies or solo.  Not big groups.  And Golf??? HA ... nope even played and a golf league sounds worse, 

[Bernie]

I think all those BMW riders and owners that hate BMW, the BMW dealers and their motorcycles, should just ship there bikes back to BMW or take them to a junk yard and have them compacted into a square cube and return them to BMW. Yes, I know the 1928 R** models where stone reliable and so was the Ford Model T the best car ever build. 

If you are really looking for a organization that will fight for your rights as a motorcyclist and motorcycle owner, you should join the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA). The have people that know how to get the government to force the manufactures to treat their customers fairly. They could use all the help you can give to fight for your right to ride, work on and collect the motorcycles of your choice. A owners group is just a bunch of fellow bike owners and has really no legal stand point or motivation. All a owners group wants to do is have fun, go for a ride or sit around a fire and BS with friends.

[RadioFlyer]

On 9/30/2022 at 8:58 AM, Lowndes said:

After reading this entire thread, I have to say that it is a very good example of one of the reasons why this forum is so popular.  Specifically, the sane and adult tone that most have here when members disagree but discuss respectfully and find ways to agree on points.  That has to be a direct result of two components; the high calibre of the members in general plus the heritage/custom/tradition of being respectful that is somehow understood and maintained here by members and moderators.     

 

Well I guess it was too good to last.

[MikeB60]

4 hours ago, RadioFlyer said:

 

Well I guess it was too good to last.

If you say so...From my perspective that happened in the second post after Lowndes post.  To echo @Berniepoint, this is a BMW motorcycle enthusiasts site.  I've ridden motorcycles 45 years and owned a BMW motorcycle for the past 26 years.  My K1600 and the 2019 GS are by far the best of the bunch. The technology on the GS is brilliant from my perspective.  I'm really not interested that the new BMW are too complex from someone who doesn't own one.  If an individual dosent like BMW Motorrad's policy's they dont have to buy one plenty of other choices. YMMV....

[RadioFlyer]

On 10/3/2022 at 11:12 AM, Bernie said:

I think all those BMW riders and owners that hate BMW, the BMW dealers and their motorcycles, should just ship there bikes back to BMW or take them to a junk yard and have them compacted into a square cube and return them to BMW. Yes, I know the 1928 R** models where stone reliable and so was the Ford Model T the best car ever build. 

If you are really looking for a organization that will fight for your rights as a motorcyclist and motorcycle owner, you should join the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA). The have people that know how to get the government to force the manufactures to treat their customers fairly. They could use all the help you can give to fight for your right to ride, work on and collect the motorcycles of your choice. A owners group is just a bunch of fellow bike owners and has really no legal stand point or motivation. All a owners group wants to do is have fun, go for a ride or sit around a fire and BS with friends.

 

Indeed the AMA is to be applauded for its efforts on behalf of motorcyclists on this issue.

 

Being a lobbyist or taking legal action is beyond the capability of the BMW MOA however this does not mean that it is helpless and must sit idly by. The MOA can lever the power of social media to bring pressure on BMW to make service information available. It choses however to adhere to the BMW Clubs International Council's guidelines that direct clubs to act as part of BMW's public relations apparatus.

 

The MOA mission statement includes "sharing our passion for motorcycles". For the author of the letter from the BMW MOA magazine posted earlier, and for many of us, that passion includes working on our bikes but the MOA is not willing to help preserve that aspect or ownership. It is letting us down.f

Edited October 6, 2022 by RadioFlyer
spelling

[RTinNC]

Just got my new AMA American Motorcyclist Magazine and there is an article about just this issue.   The AMA focus is rider rights and government relations.  That seems to be the best place to push this repair manual issue as they have the horsepower to do so and have no tie to any specific manufacturer.  They have won similar battles in Washington related Harley and others attempting to limit the owner ability to work on their own bikes.   Heck Harley had added language that required using a Harley shop and part for all repairs or the warranty would be void.   The AMA was able to get that changed but there are related issues that manufacturers as trying to implement that limit the owners ability to repair. 

[Ponch]

On 9/29/2022 at 3:50 PM, RadioFlyer said:

If you are referring to the FB post that I think you are then you will find buried in the comments that the ultimate result of the MOA President and Consumer Liaison's fact finding is that the service information for BMW motorcycles is in fact NOT on either the BMW TIS or AIRS systems. Looking at the MOA's forum it looks like the MOA Consumer Liaison did not receive a response to his inquiry with his BMW TIS contact and the thread there was left without correcting the misinformation about TIS availability.

For some reason I never got notifications even though I posted on the thread, so I didn't keep up with it after a while. It was getting too adversarial in some ways anyway. It just is what it is. 

[Ponch]

On 10/2/2022 at 9:27 AM, RadioFlyer said:

The following is adapted from a post I made on the MOA Forum about the "discount" on new motorcycles.

 

What is portrayed as being a BMWMOA benefit is really something that BMW is just prepared to give because it knows the cost of customer acquisition through other means is higher than the "discount". An important metric for many companies in a competitive market is churn and the cost of acquisition. Churn measures what percentage of previous owners decide to replace their purchase with a competitor's product. The cost of acquisition measures all the money spent on promotion divided by the units sold. Giving a discount is cheap acquisition since its isn't really much of real expense - it's not as if BMW actually handed you cash. The benefit is more of a feel good. BMWMOA gets to claim a membership benefit, BMW gets a customer they might otherwise lose and the purchaser feels like they got a better deal. BMW doesn't require that the dealership prove that they sold the unit to a bonafide member because it need not care.

Post script #1
I should elaborate on why I say that this is a "feel good". I have mentioned churn as important metric. Other important metrics are percentage of market share and percentage sales growth year-over-year and of course profits. Someone in any given BMW market area (e.g. BMW NA) has the difficult job of determining the starting point for pricing - whether its the dealer's reduction thereto (if the dealer is permitted to do so, not always the case) or the various incentives, promotions and discount programs offered in the market area. The starting point is often cited as the MSRP. That someone has to strike a difficult balance. The higher the MSRP the higher the profits (all other things being equal).

But of course a higher MSRP brings the risk of losing new sales to competitors and increasing churn. Those tasked with setting the MSRP have to do a pretty extensive analysis involving the anticipated sales and post-sales revenue as well as sales volumes. I mentioned churn earlier because churn considers the customers that bought BMW motorcycles but then switched to another make at their next purchase. Repeat purchasers outnumber new purchasers.

Amongst repeat purchasers you will find owners who belong to a brand affinity club like the BMWMOA and its chartered clubs, as well that those who don't. Those who are in brand affinity clubs are members because they have formed an emotional attachment to the brand and the role of the clubs is to strengthen that emotional attachment.

When the analysts sit down to set the MRSP they have to consider how price sensitive the various potential purchasers are (ecomomists will call this demand elasticity). A new purchaser will probably be the most price sensitive (elastic) whereas repeat purchasers will probably be the least price sensitive (inelastic). Amongst the repeat customers those who participate in brand affinity clubs are the least price sensitive (most inelastic) of all (for the bikes, the service and the parts) because of their emotional attachment to the brand. Essentially they are willing to pay more because they find value in a lifestyle.

The analysts look at the willingness to pay across all the potential purchasers when they set MSRP. The higher the proportion of potential purchasers there are in the inelastic brand affinity category the more aggressive BMW can be in setting a higher MSRP. So perversely when we belong to the BMWMOA we contribute to BMW's ability to set a higher MSRP. Then we get to feel good when they offer us a "discount" when the purpose of the discount in part is to keep us in the brand affinity club. Like I said elsewhere here there is no free lunch.

The objective to increase market share tempers MSRP but getting that increased market share is really tough in NA because Harley dominates sales and its customers have really serious brand affinity to Harley. If you want to increase market share against Harley you need to offer inexpensive bikes to beginners (before Harley gets them) and hope that they become brand loyalists later on or imitate Harley by offering cruisers. The latter failed on its first attempt and the jury is out on the current attempt.
 

 

HD is a whole other deal. That's brand tribalism at its finest. I am not a believer and so it goes. I don't think BMW has that level of religiosity or ever will. There's a certain level of rationalism in buying one. With HD, one has to suspend disbelief, which happens in tribal circles a lot. It's why I am not tribal. Carrying water/having to defend tribal BS is a bridge too far for me. I call everything on it's BS. 

[RTinNC]

Harley certainly has done an amazing job of marketing the “lifestyle”.  Willie G was a genius in rolling out Harley Riders Group (HOG) during the horrible AMF years and building brand loyalty during some of the toughest times for the company.

[Lowndes]

On 10/3/2022 at 4:58 PM, RadioFlyer said:

 

Well I guess it was too good to last.

What?? Are you referring to "the sane and adult tone that most have here when members disagree but discuss respectfully and find ways to agree on points."??  Did I miss something in particular??  It still seems to be polite disagreement to me.  But, maybe some will disagree impolitely with that statement.