The End of Carbon Combustion Engines

[Red]

Not long ago CA announced no more sales of petrol autos by 2035.  Today I read that the UK will do the same by 2030.  The hand writing is on the wall for motorcycles without anybody actually saying it.  My question is what about all the rest of the tools with carbon based power.  Going to be hard to run my snow thrower with a cord because battery power would make them extremely heavy and near impossible to manuver.  Lawn tractors, they'd be either huge or have to be recharged a couple times per mow.  These puppies are gonna need a tow behind battery .

I can embrace electric motorcycles and autos, it the rest of the stuff that legislators seem to forget we need.

[TEWKS]

You just have to plug them all into that magical electrical outlet which an endless supply of clean renewable green energy flows from. Forever. 🌼

 

Sorry, I’m taking this new sarcasm course at work, it’s very enlightening and entertaining all in one. 
 

Not an expert but I’m thinking a lot of coal and natural gas will be needed to create enough electricity for all of these future clean vehicles. 
 

Good for trying no doubt but it seems a long ways from being the perfect solution. 

 

[BamaJohn]

I'm thinking this topic could go off in many directions.......

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

4 hours ago, Red said:

Lawn tractors, they'd be either huge or have to be recharged a couple times per mow.

 

They're not any bigger than gas mowers.  I mentioned a few months ago in another thread that there are now battery-powered riding mowers that can do two acres on a single charge. If you need to mow more than that, you can have a second battery pack charged and ready to swap out halfway through your job.

 

This spring I bought a battery-powered walk-behind mower.  No regrets.  Big personal pluses  include reduced noise (I don't have to wear earplugs anymore), and not breathing toxic engine exhaust anymore.  I expect the same would be true of riding mowers.

 

 

[realshelby]

When it comes to those large trucks....

 

These are often electric drive. On some jobs they supplement the diesel engine output with trolley wires above the bed ( to climb steep grades ).  So, they could be made to operate on battery for short distance till they get back to the power grid. 

 

Almost all of the large trucks are loaded by totally electric powered shovels. Have been for decades. 

 

Even the drills that bore the holes for the blasting have been electric powered for decades. 

 

Support equipment like bulldozers will be a problem.......Maybe they can beam microwave energy to them for power!

[Bud]

Time will tell if they are able to make it happen.

 

 

[Rougarou]

I go through five gallons of diesel every weekend cutting my yard.  Would hate to have to stop in the middle of my grass cutting meditation to charge my 1025r.  As far as hearing is concerned, I wear 3M Worktunes,......even if the tractor was quiet, I'd have my tunes on.

[Sonor]

I still want to be able to drive between 500 and 1000 miles in one day without having to stop for 1/2 hour to recharge (multiple times).  I think the goal is great, just the application may not be obtainable - but we will see.

[Hosstage]

But aren't these large machines really diesel electric, like locomotives? Basically a big diesel generator?

[Hosstage]

Every article I read about using an EV to go on a long trip gives me heart palpitations, reading about the trials of trying to find working charging stations, waiting for a spot to open up, watching the energy consumption while driving more than actually watching the road.

While electrics will probably meet 90% of driving needs, that last 10% is a serious drawback.

And then there is the issue of establishing a universal charging plug and system. Seems to be a few propiatary methods being used that don't crossover.

[John Ranalletta]

Did anyone else notice while watching "Long Way Up" that the crew encountered solo gas-powered motorcyclists who didn't require a couple of million dollars worth of support vehicles to travel 'round the world?  If/when we reach 100% EV, consider how much of the world becomes inaccessible.

[fourteenfour]

48 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

Did anyone else notice while watching "Long Way Up" that the crew encountered solo gas-powered motorcyclists who didn't require a couple of million dollars worth of support vehicles to travel 'round the world?  If/when we reach 100% EV, consider how much of the world becomes inaccessible.

 

Yeah, first time I ever considered as a needed motorcycle accessory being a pickup truck and generator.

  

As for EVs, bring them on. Love my Tesla 3.  I also use a GreenWorks push mower on my yard, I have both a 4amp and 2.5amp battery and with 12k square feet of lawn it can take a recharge of both to do the full yard. I usually do front and rear separately.

 

The sad state of EV motorcycles is none are built to be aerodynamic or carry anything. A windscreen has been shown to improve range on some Zero motorcycles.  I would think wrapping a fairing like that of the 96 RT variety would be a good start.

[Rougarou]

51 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

Did anyone else notice while watching "Long Way Up" that the crew encountered solo gas-powered motorcyclists who didn't require a couple of million dollars worth of support vehicles to travel 'round the world?  If/when we reach 100% EV, consider how much of the world becomes inaccessible.

 

Generator support truck,.....hmmmm,.....

[John Ranalletta]

25 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

 

Generator support truck,.....hmmmm,.....

 

Imagine paying 10 large for an Edelweiss tour to ride 3, recharge 2!

[Hosstage]

Good point on the tour.

And right now, most of the charging stations are located remotely, near no amenities, out at the end of a large box store parking lot, or across a busy avenue from a convenience store, or near nothing. No bathroom, no convenience store goods, no place to get a bite to eat. The charging stations need to get set up like current gas stations, or the concept is just going to keep getting fought against.

[Rougarou]

17 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

Imagine paying 10 large for an Edelweiss tour to ride 3, recharge 2!

 

When the technology advances enough that I can travel 1000 miles in 14ish hours, I'll be in.  Right now, to use a Tesla, I'd be looking at a 5 hour addition to my trip,......ain'ta gonna happen.

[John Ranalletta]

Just now, Rougarou said:

 

When the technology advances enough that I can travel 1000 miles in 14ish hours, I'll be in.  Right now, to use a Tesla, I'd be looking at a 5 hour addition to my trip,......ain'ta gonna happen.

Why is it when hydrogen fuel cells are promoted, the econ press shows this picture:

 

 

But when EVs are discussed, the articles very seldom carry this picture:

 

 

Lobbyists...https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2020/11/progress-thy-name-is-zeta-new-electric-vehicle-lobbying-group-hits-the-scene/

 

 

[Hosstage]

MotorTrend magazine just had an article about traveling cross country in an EV. It seemed like a lot of work to me, mismarked charging stations, inoperable charging stations when finally finding one, stopping every 70 miles to top off, absolutely no deviating from main hiways for sightseeing. Limp mode when the power gets too low, causing real issues on interstates.

If power runs out, AAA can't just bring out a can of electric to pour in. I'm sure more and more service vehicles will have generators to charge up EVs, but now fuel is being used to power electric, and everybody sits on the side of the road and waits for charge up, probably a much bigger cost to the consumer than just a five gallon can of gas.

[Hosstage]

1 minute ago, John Ranalletta said:

Why is it when hydrogen fuel cells are promoted, the econ press shows this picture:

 

 

But when EVs are discussed, the articles very seldom carry this picture:

 

 

Lobbyists...https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2020/11/progress-thy-name-is-zeta-new-electric-vehicle-lobbying-group-hits-the-scene/

 

 

 

How dare you disparage the good name of EVs?

[John Ranalletta]

21 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

 

How dare you disparage the good name of EVs?

 

I'd consider a Bolt as an "around town"  vehicle, but that's cost prohibitive.  If this push toward EVs continues and only the semi wealthy can afford them, the US will begin to look like an updated version of Cuba.  The next step will be onerous taxes on fuel and fuel production leading to scarcity and black markets.  Of course, the poorest will bear the greatest burdens.  Always was.  Always will be.

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

2 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

Why is it when hydrogen fuel cells are promoted, the econ press shows this picture:

 

 

But when EVs are discussed, the articles very seldom carry this picture:

 

 

Any fair comparison should point out that gasoline cars are eleven times more likely to catch fire than EVs.

 

[John Ranalletta]

4 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Any fair comparison should point out that gasoline cars are eleven times more likely to catch fire than EVs.

 

 

All of those fires gasoline related?

[John Ranalletta]

6 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Any fair comparison should point out that gasoline cars are eleven times more likely to catch fire than EVs.

 

 

 

Is the data controlled for vehicle age?  IOW, does the study compare all gas vehicles of any age to EVs, most which are less than 5 y/o (I'm guessing)?

[roadscholar]

Yeah I'm thinking old VW Beetles and 70-71 911T's with Zenith carbs, they were notorious incendiary devices.

[Hosstage]

Electric high pressure fuel pumps put out a lot of fuel in a short amount of time, so a small leak becomes a hot fire pretty quickly.

Seems we have more car fires now than I can remember when mechanical pumps were the norm. 

[dduelin]

Regarding the end of gas powered vehicles it wasn't so long ago I remember reading that the world would run out of fossil fuel reserves by the end of the 20th century and we would all be commuting in flying cars by the '90s, 1990s that is.  Technology and productivity increases found ways to access crude reserves once thought not economically or technologically feasible to tap. Predictions don't always come true and nation states don't always achieve stated goals 30 years away hence.........  Red Barchettas, while rare, are still out there.

[John Ranalletta]

2 hours ago, roadscholar said:

Yeah I'm thinking old VW Beetles and 70-71 911T's with Zenith carbs, they were notorious incendiary devices.

 

 

Had a Pinto wagon engine compartment fire when a fuel line split.  Was driving when the driver of a car on my right yelled, "Your car's on fire".  Had no clue until we stopped at a traffic signal and the hood turned from an aqua blue to charred black.

 

That was the second pinto.  The first was rear ended but didn't explode into flames as they were wont to do.

[John Ranalletta]

Oh, oh... Scratch the Bolt for now.

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/gm-recalling-over-50000-chevy-bolts-can-catch-fire-when-charged-nearly-full-capacity

[TEDZ]

Iron Butt rules might need some revision for electric motorcycles unless range and charging improve.

[roadscholar]

15 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

 

Had a Pinto wagon engine compartment fire when a fuel line split.  Was driving when the driver of a car on my right yelled, "Your car's on fire".  Had no clue until we stopped at a traffic signal and the hood turned from an aqua blue to charred black.

 

That was the second pinto.  The first was rear ended but didn't explode into flames as they were wont to do.

 

That's the nice thing about old V-dubs and those two years of 911's, when the engine ignites you can see the smoke and fire in the rear view mirror. 

[John Ranalletta]

This just in.... birthing pains.

 

While the number of EV fires wasn’t terribly out of whack with their gasoline equivalents when this all started, the Kona Electric recall actually has an unpleasantly high number of confirmed fires. The same was true for Chevy’s Bolt. Unfortunately, the default solution has been for automakers to issue software updates that prohibit vehicles from achieving their maximum charge (lowering range). But that doesn’t seem sufficient to give consumers peace of mind, especially when EV fires are particularity explosive, so many of them happened while vehicles were charging overnight, and the issue extends beyond Hyundai and GM.

[Hank in WV]

3 hours ago, roadscholar said:

 

That's the nice thing about old V-dubs and those two years of 911's, when the engine ignites you can see the smoke and fire in the rear view mirror. 

Don't forget the Fiero...

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

13 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

unpleasantly high number of confirmed fires

 

"Unpleasantly high" is an interesting descriptor to use there.  Not sure what a "pleasantly high" level would be.  Reminds me of an old Onion article:

 

Pope Vows To Get Church Pedophilia Down To Acceptable Levels

[ESokoloff]

On 11/18/2020 at 1:13 AM, TEWKS said:

You just have to plug them all into that magical electrical outlet which an endless supply of clean renewable green energy flows from. Forever. 🌼

 

Sorry, I’m taking this new sarcasm course at work, it’s very enlightening and entertaining all in one. 
 

Not an expert but I’m thinking a lot of coal and natural gas will be needed to create enough electricity for all of these future clean vehicles. 
 

Good for trying no doubt but it seems a long ways from being the perfect solution. 

 

And just how much electricity is needed to create a gallon of gasoline?

Couldn't that electricity be used to charge BEV (Battery Electric Vehicles)  instead?

[ESokoloff]

On 11/18/2020 at 6:24 AM, fourteenfour said:

The sad state of EV motorcycles is none are built to be aerodynamic or carry anything.

Zero now offers a faired model with bolt on luggage.  
Perhaps not BMW standards but it’s something.

SR/S

[TEWKS]

7 hours ago, ESokoloff said:

And just how much electricity is needed to create a gallon of gasoline?

Couldn't that electricity be used to charge BEV (Battery Electric Vehicles)  instead?

I don’t know how much electricity it takes honestly but, add on to the current fleet more than 250 million electric vehicles and I think the game changes a bit.  Robbing Peter to pay Paul comes to mind and that was my original point.

[Red]

19 hours ago, ESokoloff said:

Zero now offers a faired model with bolt on luggage.  
Perhaps not BMW standards but it’s something.

SR/S

For good reason, all the e bikes are aimed at the city/commuter market.  I'm not much interested until there's a bike with touring range.  I did notice the SR/S weighed in at 505 lbs.  I think my 1200 RT is a tad over 600.  I just wonder if they added another 100 lbs of battery what the increased range would be?

[ESokoloff]

2 hours ago, Red said:

For good reason, all the e bikes are aimed at the city/commuter market.  I'm not much interested until there's a bike with touring range.  I did notice the SR/S weighed in at 505 lbs.  I think my 1200 RT is a tad over 600.  I just wonder if they added another 100 lbs of battery what the increased range would be?

Change/improvement in battery tech is coming.

GM just made this announcement

[Ferrare/1951]

What worries me is that being an Ole' Guy, I may forget that an Electric Bike makes no sound. Might step off at about 40 miles an hour one day.

But that's me saying...

[Red]

They take some getting used to.  I was given a loaner e motorcycle by my bmw dealer once whilst waiting for my 12,000 mile service work to be completed.  Except for tire noise it was completely silent.  That was fine when you were underway, but at a stop you always questioned is this thing still running and when I need to go, is it?  The e bikes need to work on the rider sensory experience.

[mickeym3]

The E movement is gaining steam (electrons?) with GM increasing the new E models to be made available and endorsing California’s adoption of more stringent EPA guidelines (no mention how CA will build infrastructure to support all those E cars since they don’t have an effective grid now).  Thanks largely to the seed planted by Mitch’s description of his dad’s Tesla I made a deposit on a VW ID4 but don’t plan on getting a E bike.  The whole sensory nirvana offered by riding is greatly enhanced by the sweet exhaust tones of virtually any bike besides a Harley. 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

On 11/18/2020 at 4:13 AM, TEWKS said:

You just have to plug them all into that magical electrical outlet which an endless supply of clean renewable green energy flows from. Forever. 🌼

 

Sorry, I’m taking this new sarcasm course at work, it’s very enlightening and entertaining all in one. 
 

Not an expert but I’m thinking a lot of coal and natural gas will be needed to create enough electricity for all of these future clean vehicles. 

 

If you're concerned about the CO2 per mile, EVs do far better than conventional-drivetrain vehicles, even if the power plant is burning coal to make electricity for them.  

 

If you're concerned about infrastructure upgrades to provide all that electrical power, yes, that's a concern.  It wouldn't happen overnight, but neither did the infrastructure to meet the demand for gasoline.

 

 

On 11/18/2020 at 1:27 PM, John Ranalletta said:

Is the data controlled for vehicle age?  IOW, does the study compare all gas vehicles of any age to EVs, most which are less than 5 y/o (I'm guessing)?

 

Fair point, the condition of the vehicle matters, and I don't know the stats for how late-model gasoline cars compare with late-model EVs.  It may be instructive to compare how gasoline and electric vehicles perform in a crash:

 

Quote

...when compared to the flammability of gasoline, Li-ion batteries pose a far lower risk of fire or explosions. In cases of vehicular fires that were the result of damaged Li-ion batteries, the fire was limited to the area where the batteries were contained before it could be extinguished. In cases of vehicle fires that were the result of spilled gasoline or damaged fuel-delivery components, the fire tended to spread to other parts of the vehicle before it could be contained, and those fires also required more effort from firefighters to extinguish.

.

.

.

According to NHTSA, the Tesla Model S, which protects its battery array with an additional shielding of an external aluminum plate and has a layer of fire protection between the batteries and the passenger compartment, received the highest possible safety ratings in crash tests.

.

.

.

In all, NHTSA concluded that the likelihood of passenger injuries in crashes involving electric vehicles is actually slightly lower, meaning that they are safer to passengers, than those involving vehicles with gasoline and diesel engines.

 

 

[Hosstage]

2 hours ago, mickeym3 said:

  The whole sensory nirvana offered by riding is greatly enhanced by the sweet exhaust tones of virtually any bike besides a Harley. 

That Harley statement hurts a little.  To be fair, if the exhaust is kept stock, it's really not that obnoxious.

However, they sound best with straight drag pipes...

 

Get you one of these for your electric motor sickle:

https://www.bicycleheaven.org/products/bicycle-handle-bar-grip-n-growl-vroom-noise-maker-fit-schwinn-sears-murray

[Ferrare/1951]

I think taping Playing cards to the swingarm and letting them stroke the spokes will defiantly get you a bit of a roar.....

[Hosstage]

Just now, Ferrare/1951 said:

I think taping Playing cards to the swingarm and letting them stroke the spokes will defiantly get you a bit of a roar.....

That was second on my list of noisemakers!

[Dave_in_TX]

3 hours ago, mickeym3 said:

The whole sensory nirvana offered by riding is greatly enhanced by the sweet exhaust tones of virtually any bike besides a Harley. 

Not for me. I wear earplugs most of the time so  I usually can't hear the engine anyway which is fine with me.

[Ferrare/1951]

3 hours ago, mickeym3 said:

The E movement is gaining steam (electrons?) with GM increasing the new E models to be made available and endorsing California’s adoption of more stringent EPA guidelines (no mention how CA will build infrastructure to support all those E cars since they don’t have an effective grid now).  Thanks largely to the seed planted by Mitch’s description of his dad’s Tesla I made a deposit on a VW ID4 but don’t plan on getting a E bike.  The whole sensory nirvana offered by riding is greatly enhanced by the sweet exhaust tones of virtually any bike besides a Harley. 

Harley exhaust sounds..? You know that's really wrong...! How can being broke down on the side of the road make any sound...

[Hosstage]

21 minutes ago, Ferrare/1951 said:

Harley exhaust sounds..? You know that's really wrong...! How can being broke down on the side of the road make any sound...

That hurts a little...

Mine hasn't broken down, and luckily has only a small leak, not like those old ones that leaked a lot!

 

[mickeym3]

So is that a picture of your “small leak” bike?

[TEWKS]

3 minutes ago, mickeym3 said:

So is that a picture of your “small leak” bike?

No, it’s adaptation of this psych test to tell if you’re a true believer in all things Harley Davidson. Pass and you’re family. Fail, and they tattoo poser on your forehead. 

 

 

Ready, what do you see?