The End of Carbon Combustion Engines

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

48 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

That was second on my list of noisemakers!

 

Why stop there?  It could be literally any noise you can image. Some years ago I posted a list of potential noises for EVs to announce their approach.  I can't remember them all, but here's a few:

 

Imperial TIE fighter

Fran Drescher's Voice yelling "LOOK OUT!" over and over again

Howler Monkey

F1 engine, V-10 era

F-14 engine, zone 5 (need the upgraded sound system for this)

A couple (trio?  quartet?) in the throes of passion

All of these things at once

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

2 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

No, it’s adaptation of this psych test to tell if you’re a true believer in all things Harley Davidson. Pass and you’re family. Fail, and they tattoo poser on your forehead. 

 

 

My first question was what the hell kinda pizza was in that box.

[Ferrare/1951]

1 minute ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Why stop there?  It could be literally any noise you can image. Some years ago I posted a list of potential noises for EVs to announce their approach.  I can't remember them all, but here's a few:

 

Imperial TIE fighter

Fran Drescher's Voice yelling "LOOK OUT!" over and over again

Howler Monkey

F1 engine, V-10 era

F-14 engine, zone 5 (need the upgraded sound system for this)

A couple (trio?  quartet?) in the throes of passion

All of these things at once

How about a real loud fa--T?

[Rougarou]

3 minutes ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Why stop there?  It could be literally any noise you can image. Some years ago I posted a list of potential noises for EVs to announce their approach.  I can't remember them all, but here's a few:

 

Imperial TIE fighter

Fran Drescher's Voice yelling "LOOK OUT!" over and over again

Howler Monkey

F1 engine, V-10 era

F-14 engine, zone 5 (need the upgraded sound system for this)

A couple (trio?  quartet?) in the throes of passion

All of these things at once

 

Only this music should sound, the mighty Warthog puttin' down the killin'

 

 

 

Of course, video sound is not as impressive as it reminds me of this:

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

27 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Only this music should sound, the mighty Warthog puttin' down the killin'

 

 

We'll make that the horn.

 

 

[Hosstage]

.

[Red]

I used to be a Brit bike guy.  The story among us was that oil was really not formed geologically in N. Africa.  The oil deposits are just where the British artillery parked during WWI

[Hosstage]

Thank God for British bikes, they make my leak look like it's not...

[ltljohn]

6 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Why stop there?  It could be literally any noise you can image. Some years ago I posted a list of potential noises for EVs to announce their approach.  I can't remember them all, but here's a few:

 

Imperial TIE fighter

Fran Drescher's Voice yelling "LOOK OUT!" over and over again

Howler Monkey

F1 engine, V-10 era

F-14 engine, zone 5 (need the upgraded sound system for this)

A couple (trio?  quartet?) in the throes of passion

All of these things at once

The F14 at zone 5 is loud.  However, my shop on the JFK was 2 decks below the flight deck between the cats.  The S3 sounded like a giant vacuum cleaner or the biggest carb you ever heard, hence the nickname "hoover", loud low frequency.  The EA6B at military power shook things in my shop.

[ESokoloff]

On 11/21/2020 at 1:00 PM, Red said:

Except for tire noise it was completely silent.  That was fine when you were underway, but at a stop you always questioned is this thing still running and when I need to go, is it? 

On my 2016 Zero (DSR) there is a green LED in the display that flashes when key in on/kickstand up/kill switch on. 
After 5 of so seconds the contactor pulls in (“clunk”) & the light stops flashing indicating your good to go.  
 

To be honest, I’ve never worried if the bike would become unresponsive when taking off from a stop. 
It always has (3.5yrs & 52k miles ((nearly 50k miles are mine).

[Rougarou]

9 hours ago, ltljohn said:

The F14 at zone 5 is loud.  However, my shop on the JFK was 2 decks below the flight deck between the cats.  The S3 sounded like a giant vacuum cleaner or the biggest carb you ever heard, hence the nickname "hoover", loud low frequency.  The EA6B at military power shook things in my shop.

 

I was on JFK in '88, part of MarDet, hopefully, you didn't get "thumped" during a security alert.

[ESokoloff]

Here’s what a 400 mile day road trip on an Electric motorcycle (can) looks like.

 

[ltljohn]

An electric car with a 50 mile range would be great for my daily commute of 35 miles round trip.  Fifty miles would give me the extra to run errands after work.  My question is how do we deal with all the batteries?  Do we have the technology to recycle them when they reach the end of their life cycle?

[BrianM]

Yes they can be recycled. Unfortunately it is not a simple process. However, the batteries can be repurposed for other electrical storage that is not as sensitive to battery performance.

 

Long term, I still think fuel cells will replace batteries. Research is being done on electrolysis of seawater. The salt (Cl- ions) corrode the anode. Much better to use seawater than freshwater.

[9Mary7]

12 hours ago, ESokoloff said:

Here’s what a 400 mile day road trip on an Electric motorcycle (can) looks like.

That doesn't look like a fun M/C ride to me.......

[Ferrare/1951]

Kinda like a bike that gets bad gas mileage.

[Hosstage]

Did ya ever notice that the charging stations are located nowhere near any other amenities?

[Ferrare/1951]

I think it cost him about $50 one way too...

[mickeym3]

So much for spontaneity on the road...nope, passing on the bike but still looking forward to the ID4

[Antimatter]

It's close for me.  I've decided to hang on to my Honda Ridgeline and wait and see what comes down the pipeline for electric trucks. 

[Bill_Walker]

On 11/26/2020 at 3:45 AM, ltljohn said:

An electric car with a 50 mile range would be great for my daily commute of 35 miles round trip.

I've got a Gen 2 (2016 and later) Chevy Volt.  It gets about 50 miles of EV range before the gas engine kicks in.  For my normal driving, I go 3-4000 miles between fill-ups, at which I put in 7-8 gallons of gas.  I've done one road trip, between San Diego and San Francisco (approximately), and got 42 mpg running as a hybrid (i.e., without plugging in).  The Volt's trip meter doesn't computer miles/kW-hr, but shows MPGe, or miles per gallon equivalent, which is derived from computing kW-hr to the energy in a gallon of gas.  On EV mode only trips, I generally get around 100 MPGe.  Electric motors are way more efficient than gas engines.

[Red]

8 hours ago, Bill_Walker said:

 I've done one road trip, between San Diego and San Francisco (approximately), and got 42 mpg running as a hybrid (i.e., without plugging in).

Which brings us back to the practicality of ALL electric vehicles.  Seems they are still only appropriate for relatively short distance commuting owners or the town-and-back suburb folk.  Distance travelers need not get too excited about e vehicles until or unless there is a breakthrough in battery technology.  Doesn't mean we can't do our part for the planet in our day-to-day activities.  Just means ownership is still limited for narrow function audience.

[mickeym3]

As I mentioned earlier I paid to get on the VW ID.4 list, hopefully being delivered in the 4th qtr 2021.  Yes, hardly an early adopter but my wife has been opposed to the concept due to range anxiety and after 45 years of marriage I’ve learned to drive any stakes in the ground very selectively. The VW has been given an EPA advertised range of 250 miles which will serve for 99% of our trips. Further than that is probably an overnight jaunt in which case I prefer to take my bed with me.  The van gets 20mpg and the overall travel carbon footprint is remarkably better than it was years ago and much better than all these 37” tired Jeeps and SUV behemoths.  Many of those look good and I understand their appeal but their time is coming to an end at some point.  The next few years of the Biden->Harris (yikes) administration and the California “experiment” is going to be interesting as they tax and build infrastructure to move us forward. Meanwhile I’ll distance travel in my home on wheels (or have the Redverz for fun travel). 

 

Bill, kudos for your Volt travels...wish I could have talked my wife into one of those or the i3. 

[Rougarou]

42 minutes ago, mickeym3 said:

 much better than all these 37” tired Jeeps and SUV behemoths.  

 

My 37" tired jeep averaged 16-18, not much less than your rolling bed.  The biggest problem with most that throw the big tires on is they do not re-gear to adjust.  Then they wonder why they've lost 5th or 6th gear.  

 

The behemoths, I doubt, are going anywhere.  Maybe in Commiefornia, but the rest of the states, they'll stay.  So long as there's a pit full of mud, a trail full of boulders, people will build up to go through it all.

[mickeym3]

Richard, I stated that I get the appeal but vast majority of said Jeeps never see the mud and boulders.  No different than the GSA/Starbucks deal. I love to see Jeeps with mud all over them,  go for it and have fun.  I’d actually like to go to the annual Jeep / Moab thing. Years ago I took delivery of a BMW at the Performance Center in Greenville and they had you take an X5 through it’s paces in their off road course and what a hoot but I have a finite number of expensive fun machines.  Think the question posed by the thread is down the road do we see a massive switch to alternative transportation.  I for one think the world has a finite amount of petroleum regardless of how well we drill and frack for it and the atmosphere has a finite amount of capacity for absorbing it’s byproducts....

[Hosstage]

I just want you guys to know, I'm doing my part to burn up as much of the finite oil/fuel available as I can. I'm just here to help the push to electric, the sooner I burn up all the gas, the sooner electric takes over, my contribution to the environment!

You're welcome.

[Rougarou]

13 minutes ago, mickeym3 said:

Richard, I stated that I get the appeal but vast majority of said Jeeps never see the mud and boulders.  No different than the GSA/Starbucks deal. I love to see Jeeps with mud all over them,  go for it and have fun.  I’d actually like to go to the annual Jeep / Moab thing. Years ago I took delivery of a BMW at the Performance Center in Greenville and they had you take an X5 through it’s paces in their off road course and what a hoot but I have a finite number of expensive fun machines.  Think the question posed by the thread is down the road do we see a massive switch to alternative transportation.  I for one think the world has a finite amount of petroleum regardless of how well we drill and frack for it and the atmosphere has a finite amount of capacity for absorbing it’s byproducts....

 

What you really should go to is King of the Hammers.  From bikes to custome buggies and everything in between.

 

Anyway, I get that people lift for the look,.....posers be what they're called, but that is their choice to do so.  If they can fund the fuel, so be it.

 

I tell my daughters, drive as fast as the ticket you can afford to pay.

 

EVs, until they can do a 1k trip with one stop, I ain't looking at them, and that one stop, needs to last about 15-20 minutes,.....which is, long enough to fill the tank, bleed the bladder/s, grab some chow.......and ya, my wife and two daughters were "bladder hardened" for the trips we would take

[Antimatter]

I've said before that if someone had made a pickup with the Volt drive train, I would have bought it.

[ESokoloff]

On 11/26/2020 at 9:28 AM, Ferrare/1951 said:

I think it cost him about $50 one way too...

$44NZD was displayed on the video & that’s about $31USD. 
I don’t know the cost of electricity/kw difference between NZ/USA but that cost seems reasonable considering the 400+ miles traveled.

[mickeym3]

We’ll see but if the Biden->Harris administration bows to the left I suspect our choices will be somewhat limited.  As disastrous as the old gas guzzler tax was they could very well impose something just as bad.  The ones who can least afford extra road use taxes will bear the burden as usual. I’m doing my part too, will vote in the GA senate runoff election in hopes of maintaining some sort of balance even though I’m far from being a Mitch fan. Stalemate may be the lesser of two evils. 

[Rougarou]

1 hour ago, mickeym3 said:

We’ll see but if the Biden->Harris administration bows to the left I suspect our choices will be somewhat limited.  As disastrous as the old gas guzzler tax was they could very well impose something just as bad.  The ones who can least afford extra road use taxes will bear the burden as usual. I’m doing my part too, will vote in the GA senate runoff election in hopes of maintaining some sort of balance even though I’m far from being a Mitch fan. Stalemate may be the lesser of two evils. 

 

Up the pricing of fuel to "crazy" numbers and you might just find me at the "farm fuel" lane of my local fuel farm.

[John Ranalletta]

3 hours ago, Rougarou said:

 

Up the pricing of fuel to "crazy" numbers and you might just find me at the "farm fuel" lane of my local fuel farm.

 

Is that food coloring good for your engine?

[Rougarou]

1 hour ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

Is that food coloring good for your engine?

 

'tis just another additive,......like ethanol.

[Bill_Walker]

On 12/1/2020 at 10:14 PM, Red said:

Which brings us back to the practicality of ALL electric vehicles.  Seems they are still only appropriate for relatively short distance commuting owners or the town-and-back suburb folk.  Distance travelers need not get too excited about e vehicles until or unless there is a breakthrough in battery technology.  Doesn't mean we can't do our part for the planet in our day-to-day activities.  Just means ownership is still limited for narrow function audience.

It's not that big a deal for road trips, really, once there's adequate high-speed charging infrastructure.  Right now, there are a number of EVs that'll do over 250 miles on a charge, and you can easily drive a Tesla coast-to-coast, thanks to their proprietary "Supercharger" network.  Standardized high-speed charging is being deployed rapidly (in part thanks to Electrify America, funded by VW as part of their Dieselgate settlement).  Yeah, fast charging stops take a little bit longer than gas stops.  Have a bite to eat or a cup of coffee.  Relax.  Have a look at Plugshare to see just how many charging stations, and of what type, are near places you go.

A bigger issue for EV adoption, I think, is the lack of charging infrastructure for people who don't have dedicated parking spaces.  If you can charge at home, the daily EV use case is pretty simple: you plug in when you get home, and your car is fully charged when you leave, and you only rarely need to charge elsewhere.  But for apartment and townhouse dwellers who don't have a dedicated parking space or can't install a charger (and whose landlord has no incentive to do so), it's more of a problem.  It's one that can be fixed, but still a problem.

And then there are the rural dwellers for whom driving 250 miles a day is a regular occurrence. 

[Bill_Walker]

On 12/2/2020 at 3:26 AM, mickeym3 said:

Bill, kudos for your Volt travels...wish I could have talked my wife into one of those or the i3. 

I had an i3 REx on lease before I got the Volt.  It was a pretty fun car, faster than the Volt and more fun to drive, and with more EV range (about 70 miles for the model year I had).  The range extender, which was based on the C650 scooter engine, was pretty inadequate for hilly San Diego County freeways, though, which is why, on one drive to the south end of the county, I had my one occasion to try high-speed charging in order to avoid driving on the range extender.  I pulled in, plugged in, hit the nearby Starbucks for a bathroom and coffee break, and by the time I finished my coffee the car had an 85% charge, which was plenty to get home on without needing the REx.

My wife, similar to yours, feels uncomfortable with having a pure EV, even though she doesn't take road trips.  But she's on her second Ford C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid and loves EV driving.  Her commute is short, so even with only 20 or so miles of EV-mode range, she uses very little gas.  The first C-Max was leased, as was the i3, due to uncertainty about resale value.  The second was leased because Ford basically made us an offer we couldn't refuse to end the first lease a few months early and start a new one of a better-equipped car at a lower payment with no money out of pocket.  We bought that one last May when the lease ran out.

One annoyance I have with the Volt is that it only charges at about half the rate a Level 2 charger is capable of (~16 Amps vs 32).  I guess they figured it wasn't important to charge quickly when you also have an engine.  But it does mean that I'm more likely to have to burn gas when, for example, we go out in downtown San Diego, because the car won't fully recharge while we're seeing a show.  Not that we've done that for months now.

[John Ranalletta]

On 11/20/2020 at 7:10 AM, TEWKS said:

I don’t know how much electricity it takes honestly but, add on to the current fleet more than 250 million electric vehicles and I think the game changes a bit.  Robbing Peter to pay Paul comes to mind and that was my original point.

 

Just read an interesting article that asks the question (paraphrased), "As the number of EVs grows and the demand for gasoline falls, what will refineries do with 'waste gasoline'?"

 

https://www.zerohedge.com/technology/one-little-problem-all-electric-auto-fleet-what-do-we-do-all-waste-gasoline

 

From the article:

 

Those demanding an all-electric auto-truck fleet as a "green" alternative will re-create the dilemma of what to do with the "waste" gasoline. The world will still want fuel for all those container ships bringing all the goodies of a consumerist society, all those cruise ships visiting ports of call, jet fuel for all those exotic vacations enabled by 550 mile-per-hour aircraft, and oil-based lubricants, plastics and petro-chemicals, and so oil will still be pumped and refined, and almost half of it will be gasoline.

 

 

 

We can either use it or throw it away but we can't magically turn a barrel of oil into only one product.

 

[realshelby]

If I remember correctly, gasoline was dumped into the river in the early 20th century as a waste product. Kerosene was King!

[Bill_Walker]

On 12/14/2020 at 4:43 PM, John Ranalletta said:

Those demanding an all-electric auto-truck fleet as a "green" alternative will re-create the dilemma of what to do with the "waste" gasoline. The world will still want fuel for all those container ships bringing all the goodies of a consumerist society, all those cruise ships visiting ports of call, jet fuel for all those exotic vacations enabled by 550 mile-per-hour aircraft, and oil-based lubricants, plastics and petro-chemicals, and so oil will still be pumped and refined, and almost half of it will be gasoline.

That must be coming from somebody in the oil business who's assuming nothing changes but cars and trucks, and in particular that refineries don't change.  The answer is that EVERYTHING that burns hydrocarbons needs to be de-carbonized as well.  If human civilization is going to survive, we have to get to net zero CO2 emissions by 2050, and we'll only be using oil for lubricants, plastics (need less of those, though), and _maybe_ other petro-chemicals.  Why would any gasoline be produced?  I'm no expert on oil refining, but surely we can extract lubricants from crude oil without producing gasoline, especially if we're not trying to refine anything else that's combustible.

[mickeym3]

As I’ve indicated previously I’m onboard albeit a later adopter than Bill certainly and likely others. Can hardly wait for my VW ID.4 even though I’m given pause by the oft promised infrastructure updates.  The lunacy of “documentaries” like Long Way Up demonstrates just how far we have to go (see link below for reference) and even locally in Savannah GA I’ll be hard pressed to find charging anywhere remotely close to where I’d prefer to kill some time while charging.  But for 99% of my miles a 250 mile range will suffice but can’t see me abandoning non-EV vehicles altogether.  All 👀 on California I suppose as their 2035 mandate looms.

 

 

[9Mary7]

4 hours ago, mickeym3 said:

All 👀 on California I suppose as their 2035 mandate looms

Pipe dream.....literally smoking the crack pipe and dreamin' at the same time. Gavin is completely out of touch with the State he "governs". Not a clue about even the current(present) demands placed on the electrical grid and absolutely NO foresight as to what will be required to achieve this fantasy.......

[TEDZ]

The state that shuts off electricity to northern California when it's windy?

[mickeym3]

Not to worry guys, I’m sure the increased gas taxes levied will cover the infrastructure enhancements. 

Spoiler

 

 

[ESokoloff]

2 hours ago, 9Mary7 said:

Pipe dream.....literally smoking the crack pipe and dreamin' at the same time. Gavin is completely out of touch with the State he "governs". Not a clue about even the current(present) demands placed on the electrical grid and absolutely NO foresight as to what will be required to achieve this fantasy.......

We (USA) put a man on the moon less then 10 years after Kennedy said we would.

2035 is (nearly) 15 years out. 
Tesla is barely 17 years old yet look at their progress (vehicle & charging infrastructure).

 

Indeed much to be done in these next 15 years but we’ll get it done as we can’t afford not too.

 

 

[ESokoloff]

2 hours ago, TEDZ said:

The state that shuts off electricity to northern California when it's windy?

PG&E is the largest electrical provider in California.

It is they that pull the plug as needed.

Remember Paradise CA 2018?

 

PG& E, SoCal Ed, & others have needed to step up & put much effort ($$) into their infrastructure for quite some time now. 
Also the power companies don’t have control on the infrastructure of their customers.
Remember the Tubbs Fire of 2017?

[ESokoloff]

35 minutes ago, mickeym3 said:

Not to worry guys, I’m sure the increased gas taxes levied will cover the infrastructure enhancements. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Tesla managed to build a charging network on their own.

This isn’t rocket science (that’s Elon’s other biz)

[Ferrare/1951]

7 hours ago, mickeym3 said:

As I’ve indicated previously I’m onboard albeit a later adopter than Bill certainly and likely others. Can hardly wait for my VW ID.4 even though I’m given pause by the oft promised infrastructure updates.  The lunacy of “documentaries” like Long Way Up demonstrates just how far we have to go (see link below for reference) and even locally in Savannah GA I’ll be hard pressed to find charging anywhere remotely close to where I’d prefer to kill some time while charging.  But for 99% of my miles a 250 mile range will suffice but can’t see me abandoning non-EV vehicles altogether.  All 👀 on California I suppose as their 2035 mandate looms.

 

 

Very interesting. Seems there's still a ways to go on these Electric Bike. I think they sure do look good though.....

[ESokoloff]

Also note the the world as we know it is changing.  
By the time 2035 comes around much will have changed.  
The Pandemic disrupted life as we knew it & some of those changes will stay.

My wife hasn’t commuted in 3/4 of a year.

Zoom sessions have replaced the need for air traffic & demand may never return to pre COVI-19 levels. 
15 years is a long time & getting ready for it & will cost much but as Bill stated, we can’t afford not to make changes. 

[Ferrare/1951]

33 minutes ago, ESokoloff said:

Also note the the world as we know it is changing.  
By the time 2035 comes around much will have changed.  
The Pandemic disrupted life as we knew it & some of those changes will stay.

My wife hasn’t commuted in 3/4 of a year.

Zoom sessions have replaced the need for air traffic & demand may never return to pre COVI-19 levels. 
15 years is a long time & getting ready for it will cost much but as Bill stated, we can’t afford not to make changes. 

Just think if now businesses see the working from home thing, as something that may be possible for the future..

[mickeym3]

Accomplishing great things requires some degree of consensus.  Last I checked we aren’t even in the Paris Climate Agreement.  We’ve lost ground in the climate fight for four years and personally think John Kerry is too polarizing to convert anyone. Hope I’m wrong. 

[Rougarou]

California alone has over 15 million registered vehicles, ya, 2035 is 15 years away.  I don't know how many of those are electric or hybrid, but it probably ain't a real big dent in that 15 million and also, the used car sales are on the rise, while the new car sales are on the downtrend,......hmmmm, maybe California is banking on all those businesses leaving along with employees that will take their fossil fuel burning vehicles.  Then you want to try to get a net zero by 2050, ya, right.  All 327million people are gonna magically turn into environmentalist, I think not.  Anyway, while the U. S. military machine burns the most fossil fuels on the planet, and even they are looking to cut emission, I doubt that you'll find a 68 ton tank that gets really, really good mileage and those birds they fly, maybe by 2035 they'll have that synthesized or something, I did see a headline about some hydrogen flying plane startup, but we'll see.

 

Good luck on all that.