Dump the Damper

[alegerlotz]

On 12/20/2019 at 8:57 AM, roger 04 rt said:

And for that matter, why did they come up with a tire inflation protocol that has tire pressure pegged to a fixed temperature? This is the first and only vehicle I’ve owned where the correct “cold” tire pressure varies with ambient temperature. On a cold day, the tires are “correctly” inflated to a lower temperature than on a hot day. Surely that too affects handling. 

 

The whole "corrected to 68 degrees" thing bugs the crap out of me every time I adjust my pressures.  It is needlessly complex.

[alegerlotz]

On 12/21/2019 at 3:11 AM, bimmer2 said:

At the risk of volumes of ridicule....this Neanderthal doesn't see a steering problem on his '17 RT.... and tire brands are soooo subjective a subject...I've tried Metzler, Michelin, Continental (worst in my experience), and will try Dunlop next.  

Happy Trails to all of us!  jb

 

I agree... Tires definitely are a personal choice!  IMO the Michelin PR (3 and 4) are the most overpriced and over hyped and meh tires available for this bike.  I've tried both of those, along with Metzler Z8 Interact and RoadTec 01, and finally Continental RoadAttack 3.  I found that the Michelin PR4 tramlined a bit (followed the cracks in the road), especially when worn because the center rubber is so hard compared to the sides that they wore down to a triangle shape.

 

I'd rank them in this order:

 

1. Continental Road Attack 3
2. Metzeler RoadTec 01 (loud, but grippy)
3. Metzeler Z8
4. Michelin PR4
5. Michelin PR3

 

I might try the Dunlops next as well (after 2 sets of the Contis)

 

[Rockosmith]

11 hours ago, MikeB60 said:

Here you are.  https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/tires-and-wheels/bridgestone-battlax-sport-touring-t31-gt-rear-motorcycle-tire-p

 

Thanks!!  I have used these folks for D/S things but never considered them for street stuff.

[JamesW]

Seems to me that with telelever front suspension there would be virtually no need for a steering damper.  The front forks only provide steering input to the front wheel.  Also, with telelever correct torque on the steering head bearings also becomes somewhat non critical other than to maybe extend bearing life. Just my opinion.  I've never heard of anyone having an issue with front fork wobble/oscillation with telelever.  Now with maybe a damaged front wheel or a very poorly installed front tire??  I can't see the logic in trying to mitigate these issues with a steering damper. 

 

Steering dampers are nothing new for BMW.  My 1981 R100RT had an OEM damper that even had an adjuster which gave the rider a choice of 3 damper settings.  I always preferred the lighter setting.  Seems I remember drooling over the '77 R100RS when it was all the rave and it also had a damper.  Of course these airheads predated telelever.

 

Kind of off track here but I've always wondered why the Japanese always seem to prefer ball bearings in the steering head versus tapered roller bearings.  Maybe cheaper?

 

[Cap]

3 hours ago, JamesW said:

 ... I've never heard of anyone having an issue with front fork wobble/oscillation with telelever.  ...

 

 

I had a near-disaster on my GS while riding too fast on a gravel road.  Definitely gets your attention.

[roger 04 rt]

3 hours ago, Cap said:

 

I had a near-disaster on my GS while riding too fast on a gravel road.  Definitely gets your attention.

What happened?

[Cap]

22 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

What happened?

 

I was riding with a group on a county road with a hard packed gravelly surface.  Speed limit was 35 mph. More or less straight and level.  I was on my 2001 R1150GS, with Ohlins shocks.  The lead rider was going about 70 mph, and the rest of us were keeping up.  Suddenly, the road surface changed to about 2 inches of pea gravel.  My bike began to swerve, and the handlebars were oscillating right/left.  I backed off the throttle, and that made it worse for a few seconds.  And then, just before I lost it completely, the road surface returned to hard-pack, and I regained control.  

 

An interesting experience, from which I learned a few things...

[JamesW]

Hi Cap, That was scary.  What I was referring to when I mentioned fork or steering head wobble or oscillation is a side to side fork movement which can increase in amplitude and ultimately could become a full on tank slapper.  Often times you can start a fork wobble by simply loosening your grip on the handlebars while riding on a perfectly straight and smooth paved road.  In effect by holding onto the hand grips you are acting as your own steering head damper.  Personally I think tires and maybe wheel rim damage are the main culprits here and not loose steering head bearings be they ball or tapered roller.  The telelever suspension effectively acts as a very effective fork brace which would reduce steering head wobble tendency.

 

If I had an R1200RT i wouldn't hesitate to remove the steering head damper.  If doing so did result in a steering head wobble I would look for the root cause and not simply re-install the steering damper and I would look hard at the tires.

[AndyS]

On 12/21/2019 at 4:22 PM, roger 04 rt said:

 

I plan on switching to the Metzler Z8, I had a good test ride on those tires and have heard good comments from others.

Hi Roger. I have the Metz Z8. Way better than the Michelin in terms of tracking on cracked/uneven/tar banded surfaces. However, still as good as I’d like.

[Limecreek]

The K16GT, the RRT, RRS, RR all have them - doubt it is there for decoration.   Just last weekend I had a pretty good slide coming out of a corner followed by a good wiggle and a shake in the bars.  Did the steering damper keep things from getting more interesting? Or did my RS settle without it?  I don't know but I'd prefer not to find out.  

[roger 04 rt]

I understand your point of view and can’t argue with it. I do find it interesting that riders will experiment with tires, inflation, front shocks, rear shocks, foot peg placement and motorcycle height lowering—all of which effect motorcycle dynamic stability—and not worry a bit.

 

A friend of mine has a Norton Commando 750, a totally stable ride until he installed a pair of aftermarket rear shocks. Once he did it was a terror to ride, strong head shakes going straight down the road.

[Paul De]

1 hour ago, roger 04 rt said:

I understand your point of view and can’t argue with it. I do find it interesting that riders will experiment with tires, inflation, front shocks, rear shocks, foot peg placement and motorcycle height lowering—all of which effect motorcycle dynamic stability—and not worry a bit.

 

I wouldn't say I never worried after doing any of the changes you mention and did proceeded with caution building confidence that the changes didn't introduce a stability problem over time.  In the case of a steering damper, this devise on its face tells you there was a stability concern and requires another level of caution.

[roger 04 rt]

No doubt you took a cautious approach. What surprises me now is the sheer number of threads on tires, shocks replacement and adjustment, ride height lowering and peg relocation without even a mention of stability in any I can remember.

 

One of the possibilities is that the steering damper is there on the RTW to protect a rider who sets the bike into 2-up, full bags riding but forgets and then rides solo. Those setting would likely reduce the rake angle ... but we’ll never know.

 

I’ve been riding for a couple weeks now without the damper and as of yet have noticed no instability—even after wrenching the handlebars as aggressively as my limited skills allow. My observations on superior handle without the damper continue, which I mention because I want to avoid falling prey to the placebo effect.

[roger 04 rt]

I’m still working on this issue but there’s no doubt to me that the low speed handling has improved. I made some more measurements recently.

 

Of the 3 lbs. starting force that the steering seems to have with the damper connected, 2 lbs. is in the steering (about half is stiction), and 1 lb is is in the damper. The damper seems to have almost no stiction but the minimum force to move it at a very slow rate is about 16 oz. When loaded with 16 lbs. the damper moves end to end in about 1.5 seconds.

 

Based on these measurements, I’ve asked EPM Performance:
—Should the stock damper be considered Reactive?
—On the lowest setting, what is the minimum force to move the HyperPro steering damper?
 
I’m also trying to get some info from BMW through the dealer.

[Ponch]

On 12/20/2019 at 6:56 AM, roger 04 rt said:

After designing and testing the GSW, the shipped it without a damper. I bet BMWs lawyers made them add it.

I recall a motojournalist getting killed on a GSW in south Africa on a press junket due to a tank slapper. I bet that's why they have it. 

[JamesW]

You know maybe if you have one of these bikes with a loaded touring trunk on the back with a passenger maybe you just might be glad you have the steering damper.  Kind of sounds like maybe BMW is playing the cover your &*# game and in this day and age maybe thats not a bad idea.  I really doubt BMW would have included the steering damper for no good reason especially considering the importance of maintaining their corporate health.

 

Oh, and a touring trunk without a passenger can adversely effect handling especially as speed increases and air flow effects change with speed.  As end users we don't have the luxury of being able to do things like wind tunnel testing but BMW does.  

 

On the other hand you are dealing with a motorcycle manufacturer that has been known to do things like equip bikes with odd ball servo assisted brake systems that were not appreciated by many of us including various police agencies.  So who knows for sure if a steering damper is needed or not?  

[Ponch]

10 hours ago, JamesW said:

You know maybe if you have one of these bikes with a loaded touring trunk on the back with a passenger maybe you just might be glad you have the steering damper.  Kind of sounds like maybe BMW is playing the cover your &*# game and in this day and age maybe thats not a bad idea.  I really doubt BMW would have included the steering damper for no good reason especially considering the importance of maintaining their corporate health.

 

Oh, and a touring trunk without a passenger can adversely effect handling especially as speed increases and air flow effects change with speed.  As end users we don't have the luxury of being able to do things like wind tunnel testing but BMW does.  

 

On the other hand you are dealing with a motorcycle manufacturer that has been known to do things like equip bikes with odd ball servo assisted brake systems that were not appreciated by many of us including various police agencies.  So who knows for sure if a steering damper is needed or not?  

 

Yes, the same company that uses crappy plastic such that the throttle body pulleys crack and fall apart, a fuel strip instead of a float that seems to go belly up a lot, faulty switch gear, leaking water pumps on brand new bikes and then there are the final drive issues of old.  Yes they had a good reason to add it. Liability. I just wish they were consistent with their concern. 

[JamesW]

14 hours ago, Ponch said:

 

Yes, the same company that uses crappy plastic such that the throttle body pulleys crack and fall apart, a fuel strip instead of a float that seems to go belly up a lot, faulty switch gear, leaking water pumps on brand new bikes and then there are the final drive issues of old.  Yes they had a good reason to add it. Liability. I just wish they were consistent with their concern. 

 

 Well, that pretty much covers it.

 

I've been kind of thinking about a new BMW but that ship has sailed.  lol..lol..  As in better the devil you know.

[LAF]

Well that 10 FJR you have listed was my second favorite bike of my life so not too shabby for you and your stable.  I think in my prime the LT was the best bike I ever owned.  The 17.5 GS is all I will ever need and I am so in love with it, so all the others are a distant faded memory.

 

The LT I ran a 20 setting damper from Hyper pro and never really could tell a difference but I was not looking.  And the way the bike is transformed by aftermarket shocks I would have never even thought about it either.   I was busy trying not to scrape my J Pegs.

[roger 04 rt]

Here’s my response to another rider of a 2018 RTW, who is testing no-damper riding. He has measured a no-damper, front wheel up, breakaway force of 1 lb.

 

“It’s in the 70s and 80s here and I measure 2 lbs. breakaway on the same test you measure 1 lb. That will be useful information when I finally get around to reconnecting with the dealer.

 

The more I ride without the damper, the more I notice what’s going on. With the damper, I often felt like the bike didn’t want to initiate a slight turn, like a low speed lane change. It would always turn, it was just that it seemed I needed to apply conscious effort.

 

Without the damper, it doesn’t happen but at times (mostly 10-20 mph) I can definitely feel that bit of stiction just before it starts to turn.

 

I agree that it wants to drop into a turn faster without the damper. I’ve always felt I needed to hold the handlebars up a bit to keep it from over-turning and without the damper I’m even more aware of that.

 

Klaus at EPM Performance (HyperPro) has warned me that the biggest risk for a stick-shaker is hitting something that jars the wheel, like a pothole or curb. With my mostly conservative riding, I feel at little risk of that. So far the bike seems rock solid without the damper.”

[roger 04 rt]

I’m making some progress on this. Without the damper installed for a few hundred miles, I can definitely feel the stiction (breakaway moment) affecting low speed handling. I’ve also been doing some research.
 
I couldn’t get my service DVD for the RTW to work for a while (Norton claimed that it was a virus) so started searching my old R1150RT manual for tightening torque and then skipped past the virus check on the service DVD AND found a couple interesting things:
 
—lower ball joint torque is 230 NM on the ‘04 (not sure how I’d get it that tight)
—lower and upper torque on the RTW IS 130 NM
—there is a spec for Breakaway Moment on the ‘04 RT! It is 1-2 NM, which is 9-18 in-lbs. 
—I haven’t been able to find the spec for the RTW yet.

The measured Breakaway Moment on my ‘17 RTW, with the damper installed is 52.5 in-lbs. That is 2 - 4 times the spec range for the ‘04 RT. No wonder I can feel the difference.

 

If anyone or their dealer or the factory can dig out a spec for breakaway moment on the RTW I’d be grateful.

[Cap]

1 hour ago, roger 04 rt said:

... Breakaway Moment ...

 

What is that, and how do you measure it?

[roger 04 rt]

The Breakaway Moment is a measure of the torque required to start the handlebars moving. Attach a scale to the end of the handlebar and slowly increase force while noting the scale reading.

 

On my ‘17RTW, the breakaway occurs at around 50 ounces with the damper installed and at around 32 ounces with the damper removed. The tip of my handlebar is about 17.5” from the center pivot axis. 
 

That means the Breakaway Moments are 52 in-lbs and 34 in-lbs respectively. The range of specs for the ‘04RT is 9-18 in-lbs. Among other things that it takes many times the force in the handlbars to start a turn.

[AndyS]

Hey Roger, think of it as a built in damper!

[roger 04 rt]

Right! But I think of it as an automatic front wheel lock!

[Cap]

2 hours ago, roger 04 rt said:

The Breakaway Moment is a measure of the torque required to start the handlebars moving. Attach a scale to the end of the handlebar and slowly increase force while noting the scale reading.

Thanks.  Is that when stopped?  With a rider aboard?  Loaded luggage? Are you pulling the scale perpendicular to the axis of rotation, or to the handgrip?  

 

Sorry, I can't help myself.  But geeks gotta know.

 

Cap

[roger 04 rt]

Breakaway Moment is measured with the front wheel off the ground and is the force perpendicular to the axis of rotation.

 

What surprises me is that I’ve received no comments in either of two threads about the huge difference between the R1150’s 9-18 in-lb Breakaway, and my R1200RTW’s measured 50 in-lb Breakaway.

 

Does that really surprise no one?

[LAF]

Roger I do not think an average person can feel 32 in lbs.  I mean think about it you have this big wide handlebar and two arms working it. Most of us counter steer without a thought of pressure.  I mean on scalloped tires we have to push harder and work more to hold a line so that amount of force would not be noticed by me.

 

This is great information and when it comes time for shocks I will use Hyper Pro as I did on my LT.  I will also use their damper which is highly adjustable.

 

I find it interesting that there is that much difference in turning force but what else has change?

 

Rake, trail, weight, HP, TQ.  I just wonder if some other things have affected the turning force from series to series and the damper is there for that reason?

[roger 04 rt]

Larry, Once you notice it, I think almost all of us can feel that force. After riding without the damper, the stiction part of the breakaway moment is becomes very apparent after a few rides, most noticeable in slow traffic. 

[Cap]

36 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

Breakaway Moment is measured with the front wheel off the ground ...

 

I think most of us don't have any basis to compare our experiences with this measure.  The only thing I can think of is when I change the front tire on my RT, I pull the axle out, and need to brace the tire so it doesn't flop side to side while I am wrestling with it.  The "breakaway moment" seems insignificant in this situation as the wheel seems to want to turn.

 

I think more importantly, it would be more relevant to have a dynamic measure while the bike is loaded and moving.  I'm not sure how to do that safely and affordably.  My point is that the static forces you measure might be a minor proportion of total dynamic forces under a variety of riding conditions. 

 

For example, imagine that you install a small eccentric-weight vibrating motor to the handlebars in such a way that there is an oscillating ~30Hz vibration.  Then, measure again -- would the breakaway moment change?  Playing with the frequency would give you some notion of the way the damping affects the dynamic system.

 

Cap

[Bernie]

4 hours ago, roger 04 rt said:

Breakaway Moment is measured with the front wheel off the ground and is the force perpendicular to the axis of rotation.

 

What surprises me is that I’ve received no comments in either of two threads about the huge difference between the R1150’s 9-18 in-lb Breakaway, and my R1200RTW’s measured 50 in-lb Breakaway.

 

Does that really surprise no one?

What does your dealer say? Or have you spoken to other dealers?

All if this sounds to me like defective ball joints on the front suspension. This should be replaced under warranty. There where several GS WetHeads that had that problem back in Germany during the 2013-14 model years. Maybe someone over tightened something. 

[LAF]

You know we used to adjust fall away on our Harley's by tightening the steering head nut.  You would then set the wheel to center and nudge it to gauge if it fell left and right at the same speed and started to fall away at the roughly the same movement to start it to fall away.

 

It was not very precise IMHO but worked for tens of thousands of Harley's.  And I can tell you this my Road Glide or my Sportster never wore tires out in odd pasterns like EVERY BMW I have owned has.

 

Maybe your onto something there?

[roger 04 rt]

On 2/12/2020 at 1:14 PM, Bernie said:

What does your dealer say? Or have you spoken to other dealers?

All if this sounds to me like defective ball joints on the front suspension. This should be replaced under warranty. There where several GS WetHeads that had that problem back in Germany during the 2013-14 model years. Maybe someone over tightened something. 

My dealer has not been that interested. And until recently it was just my (and Andy’s) “feeling” about the bike.
 

I may try another closer dealer and see if one of them can contact BMW and find the spec and measure mine. 

[Bernie]

3 hours ago, roger 04 rt said:

My dealer has not been that interested. And until recently it was just my (and Andy’s) “feeling” about the bike.
 

I may try another closer dealer and see if one of them can contact BMW and find the spec and measure mine. 

Compare it to one on the showroom floor.

 

[Paul De]

I would be concerned that cables and wire harness routing and tie point differences between bikes would have too large of an impact on breakaway moment to make reliable comparisons.

 Maybe the more pragmatic solution is this device.  Worked great for keeping a good line when I was riding in the dirt exclusively

[AndyS]

No Paul, you are missing the point Roger and I are making. The bike has some root low speed  handling issues that would be great to get to the bottom of. We know the bike handles really well in nearly all aspects, but very low speed tracking, riding over badly surfaced roads,  and relative speed of tyre wear are areas we would like to drill down deeper and understand if there is anything we can improve. 

[LAF]

3 hours ago, Paul De said:

I would be concerned that cables and wire harness routing and tie point differences between bikes would have too large of an impact on breakaway moment to make reliable comparisons.

 Maybe the more pragmatic solution is this device.  Worked great for keeping a good line when I was riding in the dirt exclusively

Just did it this AM in the gym.

 

[Paul De]

14 hours ago, AndyS said:

No Paul, you are missing the point Roger and I are making. The bike has some root low speed  handling issues that would be great to get to the bottom of. We know the bike handles really well in nearly all aspects, but very low speed tracking, riding over badly surfaced roads,  and relative speed of tyre wear are areas we would like to drill down deeper and understand if there is anything we can improve. 

Hi Andy,

I believe I am tracking with the.conversatipn, but if not sort me out.  I suspect with clutch cable and other wires all strung on the bars and the small variation in how these are routed, and secured would mess with measuring the torque moment from the bar end such that it would not be so useful in sorting out the low speed weave issue.  Why not go to the culprits themselves which would be the steering head bearing torque and heim joint stiction on the A arm.  Checking the torque on the steering head bearings is straight forward enough, but I have n clue for testing/adjusting stiction on a heim joint.  

[dirtrider]

14 hours ago, Paul De said:

Hi Andy,

I believe I am tracking with the.conversatipn, but if not sort me out.  I suspect with clutch cable and other wires all strung on the bars and the small variation in how these are routed, and secured would mess with measuring the torque moment from the bar end such that it would not be so useful in sorting out the low speed weave issue.  Why not go to the culprits themselves which would be the steering head bearing torque and heim joint stiction on the A arm.  Checking the torque on the steering head bearings is straight forward enough, but I have n clue for testing/adjusting stiction on a heim joint.  

 

 

Evening Paul

 

Easy enough to check/test the lower ball joint break-away friction & check the  toque-to-maintain rotation on the lower ball joint.

 

The ball joint has a hex in the center of the stud so just pop the ball joint stud out of the lower control arm then  either use a hex drive/socket on an inch-pound  (or Nm) torque wrench, or just re-install the  nut on the ball stud then use a deep socket (that fits the nut) on the inch-pound  (or Nm) torque wrench then measure the torques.

 

It is important to try to duplicate the nominal  ( bike on wheels) working angle of the ball joint stud when testing as that is place in the ball articulation that the stiction is bothering the rider. 

 

The problem is, the breakaway torque & torque to maintain is not all that useful unless you have something to compare it to, like a known good motorcycle  (or have a published spec on the unloaded torque-to-turn  values). But if he has a real sticky one it should show up as common sense too high.  

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

The cables issue is something of a red herring since although the cable adds to the force-to-maintain movement, they don't add to the "stickiness" factor. The stiction component seems to be about the same as the force-to-maintain movement. I'll measure both again.

 

I've been going back and forth with the dealer (2 1/2 hours away). He says that BMW stopped specifying breakaway moment because dealers had trouble measuring it. My belief is they stopped publishing the spec so they couldn't be held accountable. What is the breakaway moment is a simple question that they're avoiding answering, I'm sure they have that spec at the factory.

 

The dealer also told me that the nut on the lower ball joint is a single use item so he couldn't simply loosen and retighten the nut ...

 

DR, I will try measuring it as you've suggested at the lower nut. That said, I can feel the stiction and I can experience its effect while riding. As you said, the key is for me to measure another couple bikes. Any volunteers?

[AndyS]

You can measure my bike, but it's a long way to come!

[Bernie]

You are welcome to come and try my bike. 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Roger

 

Maybe you could actually get THEM to do  the measuring. Obviously you can't take the other bikes apart to do individual component measurements, BUT--- 

 

Maybe buy a cheap pull scale, then use it to measure your motorcycle while making a video of the process including specifics on getting exactly what you need, measurement & break-away wise. Then mail the scale with a link to the  video then get others with a similar BMW 1200wc bikes to measure theirs & send you (or post) the data. 

 

Might prove that your bike & Andy's bikes are outliers, or possibly prove that they are just like the other motorcycles. (only cost you a bit of postage & some time). 

 

Be an interesting experiment & c-o-u-l-d give you some data to battle BMW with. 

[LAF]

If you can come up with a accurate and repeatable way to measure it I am sure others would do for data points.

 

I cant help because I am on a GS but I would try if you wanted.  I'm just wondering about brake/clutch/throttle/wiring bundles that run through the head of the bike.  I mean the brake lines are really stiff to say the least, and I routed my cables outside of my forks when I put risers on.  If your saying the brake cables running up each side of the fork and it's hard junction and nothing else attached to the forks are in play then it only leaves you so many options.

 

As I said it has to be a steering head nut/bearing that creates this "stickiness" you feel.  Has to be a torque on those components that can be played with to give you what you want.  Just cant fool around if you have no reference for what is called for to go back and that I assume is frustrating to you.

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

14 hours ago, LAF said:

If you can come up with a accurate and repeatable way to measure it I am sure others would do for data points.

 

I cant help because I am on a GS but I would try if you wanted.  I'm just wondering about brake/clutch/throttle/wiring bundles that run through the head of the bike.  I mean the brake lines are really stiff to say the least, and I routed my cables outside of my forks when I put risers on.  If your saying the brake cables running up each side of the fork and it's hard junction and nothing else attached to the forks are in play then it only leaves you so many options.

 

As I said it has to be a steering head nut/bearing that creates this "stickiness" you feel.  Has to be a torque on those components that can be played with to give you what you want.  Just cant fool around if you have no reference for what is called for to go back and that I assume is frustrating to you.

 

 

 

 

 

Evening LAF

 

Not much he can do with the upper bearing except replace it as it is not like the Harley or GoldWing  adjustable preload bearings.

 

BMW uses a one piece pre-assembled  double angular bearing that is a one piece bearing that is self contained with no option for bearing preload adjustment. 

[Bernie]

Maybe the steering damper is defective, since removing it improved the handling. Maybe it's bend or out of oil?

 

[roger 04 rt]

21 hours ago, Bernie said:

Maybe the steering damper is defective, since removing it improved the handling. Maybe it's bend or out of oil?

 

 

I can measure the stiction with the damper removed.

[Bernie]

7 minutes ago, roger 04 rt said:

 

I can measure the stiction with the damper removed.

Yes I am sure you can. But you said the bike handles better without the damper. So maybe the damper is defective?

[roger 04 rt]

2 minutes ago, Bernie said:

Yes I am sure you can. But you said the bike handles better without the damper. So maybe the damper is defective?

 

 

I see your point but actually the damper feels very smooth and with no stiction when tested on the bench. I believe the reason it seems better without the damper is that I've lowered the total force by reducing the dampers contribution.

 

Even with the damper off I can still feel the stiction's contribution to resistance to turning. In some ways it's subtle but under certain conditions, very obvious.

[roger 04 rt]

For anyone who would like to measure the Breakaway Moment, it is very easy. You can measure it with or without the damper installed.

 

--Put the bike on the center stand

--Apply enough force to the rear of the bike to keep the front wheel suspended

--Center the handlebars.

--Use a sensitive kitchen scale (zero'd for the orientation) to push slowly on the tip of the handgrip of handlebars, perpendicular to the axis of rotation, until they start to move.

--Note the highest force/pressure/weight before the handlebars Breakaway and start to move.

 

What happens is that it takes a certain force (e.g. 50 ounces) to start the handlebars moving, and then a lower force (e.g. 30 ounces) to keep them moving.