Dump the Damper

[roger 04 rt]

Here’s how I’ve measured it. 

[Bernie]

My scale measures just below 20 oz to start moving the bars from the right side and around 30 oz from the left side. Once moving, the force is either the same or slightly lower to keep them moving.

I did have to zero the scale as i turned it sideways, as it would indicate 10.6 oz without any thing touching it.

As the handlebars reach full lock, the resistance increases, due to cables, hoses and maybe the steering damper.

Not very scientific.

[roger 04 rt]

Thank you Bernie. And that’s 20 oz. with the damper in. I’m about 50 oz. 

[Bernie]

Yes Roger.

[LAF]

SO it seems the plot thickens. 

 

Will get to a scale today and try it on the GS. 

 

Center stand, rear weighted, right?

[roger 04 rt]

Yes, centerstand, front wheel in the air. As Bernie pointed out, you’ll need to zero out your scale when it’s on its side before you use it, assuming you’re using something like a digital kitchen scale.

 

[AndyS]

Also Roger, you will have to factor in the extra bar width of the GS.

 

[Paul De]

23 hours ago, Bernie said:

My scale measures just below 20 oz to start moving the bars from the right side and around 30 oz from the left side. 

I'm still of the mind that this approach will lead to dubious conclusions.  You have a +/- variance on the same bike! That does not bode well for the data coming from multiple bikes.  Statistically a standard divination of 50% gives an R² 75%, or 25% of the data will able to to be explained from that data set. The rule of thumb says data with R² below 90% or less is progressively getting into garbage in/ garbage out territory.    Take your results with a very large grain of salt.

[Bernie]

Ideally the same scale and the same person should be performing these tests. 
Also I don’t weigh the rear of the bike, I jack the front of the motor with a small screw jack to lift the front wheel of the ground. 

[Bernie]

As we are doing these things, I have been thinking that the dealer may have assembled the front wheel incorrectly. Doesn’t the dealer install the front wheel after uncrating the bike. If by any chance they got the fork tubes twisted, would that cause a binding action in the steering?

On the older Telelever bikes, BMW never asked to pump the front end a few times before tightening the axle and pinch bolts for the front axle. But the manual for the WetHead asked you to pump the front suspension before final tightening of the axle and pinch bolts. 
I think Roger hasn’t replaced his tires yet. 

[roger 04 rt]

Same PR4 tires. 

[dirtrider]

On 2/24/2020 at 7:35 PM, Bernie said:

As we are doing these things, I have been thinking that the dealer may have assembled the front wheel incorrectly. Doesn’t the dealer install the front wheel after uncrating the bike. If by any chance they got the fork tubes twisted, would that cause a binding action in the steering?

On the older Telelever bikes, BMW never asked to pump the front end a few times before tightening the axle and pinch bolts for the front axle. But the manual for the WetHead asked you to pump the front suspension before final tightening of the axle and pinch bolts. 
I think Roger hasn’t replaced his tires yet. 

 

Morning Bernie

 

The fork tube neutralizing is for the vertical fork stiction & possibly long term slider bushing wear but has no effect on the turning force, or turning stiction, as that  is controlled mostly by the upper triple tree bearing & lower ball joint friction (nothing in the fork neutralizing area would effect the turning force at the handlebars). 

 

 

[Cap]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

The fork tube neutralizing is for the vertical fork stiction & possibly long term slider bushing wear but has no effect on the turning force, or turning stiction, as that  is controlled mostly by the upper triple tree bearing & lower ball joint friction (nothing in the fork neutralizing area would effect the turning force at the handlebars). 

 

Thanks for the explanation.  I confess that I did not read the repair manual before Bernie pointed this out.  I have been swapping wheels a lot lately and this comment caught me by surprise.  For those who, like me, wondered what Bernie was talking about -- I have included the procedure from the BMW manual.  This assumes you have removed the front wheel, replaced it, and installed the brake calipers and the ABS speed sensor.  After installing the axle and before you torque the axle bolt and pinch bolts, do this:

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

Thanks. I missed that step in the manual when I removed the damper.

[John Bentall]

On 12/20/2019 at 4:16 PM, Pappy35 said:

 

I typed all that to emphasize that BMW would not have added that part to the bike unless they thought it needed. Especially when that bike is their simple largest selling model.

 

Pappy35, Now you're thinking like a global manufacturer. 

 

You are riding on a German Autobahn. There is no maximum speed limit. You are cruising at, maybe, 120 mph (more?). You are on holiday. Your wife is on the back. Your panniers and top-box are full. 

BMW reckons that a steering damper is essential to achieve maximum stability/handling capability under these riding conditions.

 

If one never rode under these conditions, one could certainly consider removing the steering damper to see what benefits might accrue.

 

[Hydrashok158]

I concur with Alfred02, I find the steering damper to be not stiff enough. I also find to much over steer at slow speeds.

[StuGotz]

Just saw this topic... although removing the damper in some conditions may provide some nimbleness, I’d argue against doing so. Ever experienced a tank slapper? There’s a reason for induced steering friction. Riding without damping is a crap shoot. Ding a rim or blow out at high speeds? Rough road surface? 

 

I’m all down with outthinking the engineers. But years of racing experience tells me different....😁

[AndyS]

Hi mbelectric.

I am not sure you have fully read this thread. Roger (like me) have found the handling and tyre life of these Wetheads to be much less than perfect. Roger is trying to find out if there is an underlying issue. By removing the damper we are able to take one variable out of the equation. Once we have got to the bottom of the problem a damper (maybe even a different one) will be refitted. 

[LAF]

Maybe this will lead to why we experience tire wear in the front like we do.

 

In all the motorcycles I have ridden I have never seen a tire cup as the front of all three of the BMW's I have owned.  A LT, RT, and now a GS. I have cupped tires and worn out tires but never like these fronts wear.  There was a Avon tire we used to run on the LT that did not cup on the front but it got phased out and the replacement was crap.

 

I am wondering if the some type of oscillation in the front from the damper always pulling or pushing is wearing tires into the V shape I see on my fronts?

 

I am in a pretty bad way in finances but if Roger or Andy come up with yes the dampener is contributing to this I will buy a new adjustable one from HyperPro.    I would rather pony up 3 hundred or so then keep wearing out fronts and having to suffer through a few thousand miles of loud annoying noise until I get a little of my money spent on the tire and mounting back running them out.

 

If that is the case 2 or 3 tires and mounting cost would pay for the dampener.

[roger 04 rt]

In my case, the breakaway moment seems to be the underlying issue, with the damper making things worse.

[dirtrider]

On 3/19/2020 at 7:15 PM, LAF said:

I am wondering if the some type of oscillation in the front from the damper always pulling or pushing is wearing tires into the V shape I see on my fronts?

 

 

 Morning LAF

 

I don't want to hijack Rogers Damper thread here so will just make one quick comment then if you want to discuss farther that can be done in a new thread or over PM.

 

A lot of that V shaped wear is caused by the newer design multi-compound tire construction. (harder rubber in the  middle & softer rubber as it nears the outer edges). That multi-compound or dual/  triple compound tire construction works good for mostly straight line riding but can start causing  step-wear issues if a rider is aggressive enough to actually start using that soft outer rubber as it then wears quicker. 

 

[roger 04 rt]

No problem DR.

 

In my case, the breakaway moment seems to be the underlying issue, with the damper making things worse.

 

When others have time and interest hopefully we’ll get more data.

[StuGotz]

On 3/19/2020 at 11:01 AM, AndyS said:

Hi mbelectric.

I am not sure you have fully read this thread. Roger (like me) have found the handling and tyre life of these Wetheads to be much less than perfect. Roger is trying to find out if there is an underlying issue. By removing the damper we are able to take one variable out of the equation. Once we have got to the bottom of the problem a damper (maybe even a different one) will be refitted. 

 I'd surely be looking MUCH further than a steering damper....good luck. Now, if you could remove the telelever suspension...

[Bernie]

Try to increase your front tire air pressure to 39-40 psi cold (Florida cold). That should spreed up your steering inputs.

I been using this setting on the Michelin Pilot Road 5GT tires, very successful.

[roger 04 rt]

I haven’t had time to do much other than ride for the past couple months, and I’ve even been lazy about checking tire pressure. The display reports 32/39. so I’m calling my indolence a riding test. 
 

I’ve still got the damper removed, suspension set for 1 rider, HARD. The bike handles quite good at all speeds. The other day we had some short segment riding south on I75 at 100mph. The steering felt kind of light but it might have been partly my anxiety about riding at that speed without the damper. Other than that, the bike is much better without the damper.

 

I’m much more comfortable riding without the damper than grocery shopping without a mask.

[Blue7]

Hello all,

I am on the road after purchasing two weeks ago a 1999 r850r. I'm riding from Poland to Barcelona, where I live now. I pretty much took-off on this tour after I changed oils and put on heated hand grips. (Hello from the Swiss Alps) After a week of riding I HATE what happens in slow quick turning situations. It feels like I must really push hard to do simple maneuvers in slow situations. My 'physics' brain told me the bike was 'diving hard' (in slow situations?) and sticking in full turned positions then the more I tried to pay attention my practical mind wants to rip out my damper. It's like the damper is strangely TOO effective. It's too aggressive. I must muscle my way through simple slow tight maneuvers like I'm fighting this damper. This thread was interesting to me and I thought I'd add this complaint and wait for a genius to tell me I'm not thinking well enough, if this thread even still works, while figuring out where I'm gonna rip out my damper while on the road... By the way, hello to you all. I just signed up for this forum and hope my prose is seen as friendly but frustrated. This thread stopped in 2020?, but I'm with Roger so far. I'm gonna kill that damper. (By the way, I had a 1975 r75/6 for 18 years. It also came stock with a damper but by the time I found that bike the damper was already toast. In 18 years in EVERY type of situation I never missed having it. So, the thought that BMW would not put a damper on a bike if it didn't need it, I'm not of that mind.) -- Have a fine day, Blue7

[Indy Dave]

Have you encountered every type of situation on your bike? 

 

I know of someone who was hit in the rear side case by a hydroplaning car while traveling at 55-60 on the interstate. The bike went into a death wobble, and yanked the bars so hard it severed 3 of the 4 tendons in his rotator cuff. He managed to keep the bike upright.

 

Were it not for the dampener, we all might be returning from his funeral. 

 

Good Luck.

[Bernie]

@Blue7 you may want to check your front tire air pressure. It maybe low, if it is not low, you may want to just give it an extra psi or 2.

To check if your steering damper is restricting the steering movement, position the bike on the center stand and jack up the front wheel.

Then move the handlebar from one side to the other smoothly. You should not feel any sort of restriction of any kind. Maybe something is causing a restriction, like badly routed cables or wires.

It is possible, depending on age of the bike or storage from the previous owner, that the steering bearings are seizing up and need to be replaced.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Blue7 said:

Hello all,

I am on the road after purchasing two weeks ago a 1999 r850r. I'm riding from Poland to Barcelona, where I live now. I pretty much took-off on this tour after I changed oils and put on heated hand grips. (Hello from the Swiss Alps) After a week of riding I HATE what happens in slow quick turning situations. It feels like I must really push hard to do simple maneuvers in slow situations. My 'physics' brain told me the bike was 'diving hard' (in slow situations?) and sticking in full turned positions then the more I tried to pay attention my practical mind wants to rip out my damper. It's like the damper is strangely TOO effective. It's too aggressive. I must muscle my way through simple slow tight maneuvers like I'm fighting this damper. This thread was interesting to me and I thought I'd add this complaint and wait for a genius to tell me I'm not thinking well enough, if this thread even still works, while figuring out where I'm gonna rip out my damper while on the road... By the way, hello to you all. I just signed up for this forum and hope my prose is seen as friendly but frustrated. This thread stopped in 2020?, but I'm with Roger so far. I'm gonna kill that damper. (By the way, I had a 1975 r75/6 for 18 years. It also came stock with a damper but by the time I found that bike the damper was already toast. In 18 years in EVERY type of situation I never missed having it. So, the thought that BMW would not put a damper on a bike if it didn't need it, I'm not of that mind.) -- Have a fine day, Blue7

Afternoon  Blue7

 

First, do as Bernie said & check for excessive steering drag. You can do it on the center stand even with the front wheel on the ground as it shouldn't have much weight on it with motorcycle on center stand.

 

If that tests out OK then look at your front tire, if it is worn flat in the center they will have a very heavy turn-in  with a slow heavy response to the steering input. 

 

The BMW 1100 steering dampers were pretty weak to begin with & usually do nothing once they get some age & miles on them.  So unless it's all rusted up, or something in the damper is bent, then your problem is most likely a worn tire issue. 

[Blue7]

(Boy! you guys got back to me fast! Much thanks!)

 

Indy Dave, As i was just ten minutes ago ripping out my damper, I thought to myself, "Every type of situation?, well not exactly but a lot of 'em!" Then I returned to see your reply. I understand what you say but this damper is causing so much grief in slow situations which is making me really not safe. I have been muscling through the simplest of maneuvers just turning around on a road. Really unsafe feeling.

 

Bernie, I'll check my tire pressure. And no, it's not the steering bearings. They are tight but smooth functioning. There are 58,000 kilometers on the bike by the way. It's in great shape but obviously needs to have some stuff dialed-in and all of them are happening on this tour!

 

So, I did just pull off the damper. To me the damper is like a gunky gluey mess of slow-down the steering-ness. The plunger is gloopy and makes noise and the ball joint is also sticky. I think this thing was stopping me from doing a lot of simple stuff.

 

Perhaps I'll look into other alternatives and put on another damper later while avoiding hydroplaning autos if I can until i get home to Barcelona but something has to change. This has been unpleasant in so many normal situations. I'm gonna go for a test spin now to the bank and a market if they are still open. If I don't write back then I'm road toast. But I think it's gonna be fine. And for what it's worth I'm not a speed daemon on this thing. I cruise pretty chill. It's just, I like to be able to turn my handle bars, thank you very much, without something stopping me all the time.

[Paul De]

If you find once the damper is removed you still find heavy handling there is one other factor that can make the R1100 vintage bike have heavy handling.  If the front tire is worn past half its useful life the handling will degrade as you reach the end of useful tread and tire profile..  My ‘99 R1100RT would slowly handle more and more heavily after about half of the tire’s life. A fresh tire always fixed it.

[Blue7]

First test ride it was better on the slow maneuver handling. I ran across a gas station with the coolest air filling gizmo (German made with Italians at the helm) so they set me up with a few pounds extra on air pressure. The pressure as it was was dead on to begin with. My tires are pretty new Metzlers with no low spot in the middle. I'm gonna give it a few days on the road without thinking too much about it and just see how it feels. Thanks for all your thoughts gentlemen.

 

[Blue7]

Said gizmo. It lifts off that air source to carry. Seemed genius to me.

 

[Paul De]

Metzler tires have a nice round profile, so if new they should have a fairly neutral feel for turn in and out.  The geometry of the R1100 Telelever is pretty sensitive to tire profile with round profiles working the best in my opinion 

 

[Blue7]

Paul De, Mine is an r850r which should be the same setup but a bit lighter, right, so should be less of a problem?

 

I gotta turn off the brain and put a few kilometers in and think about this more.

 

And whoever said it could be cable harness catching it is like that in feeling but there is no cable harness catching. On centerstand the handlebars are smooth as can be with and without the damper if rotated slowly.

 

More later...

[Paul De]

Haha,   As my riding friends tell me when thinking too much about riding,  is shut your brain and just ride.

 

happy and safe travels 

[Bernie]

27 minutes ago, Blue7 said:

Said gizmo. It lifts off that air source to carry. Seemed genius to me.

 

I have seen these air pressure tanks before in Germany. Very useful and easy to use.

[Scott9999]

On 12/20/2019 at 5:59 AM, AZgman said:

BMW added the steering damper after Kevin Ash was killed testing a 2013 model GS. BMW has admitted no fault in that accident, but the timing of the damper addition makes one wonder if a lack of one contributed to Ash's crash...

Lol, I blame our new friend Blue7 for resurrecting this old thread, and killing an hour of my time this morning, as I took interest in reading the whole dang thing.  🤣

 

Anyhow, this incident was referenced several times throughout the thread, but no one much followed up on it, so I did some research.

Kevin Ash Dies in Accident at the 2013 BMW R1200GS Press Launch

Three different accounts by other motorcycle journalists reported tank slapper events with that first-launched 2013 GS Wethead.   It's not really a guess that the GS was redesigned to include damper, whether due to an engineering design decision, or due to legal concerns.   I remember several tank-slapper events riding dirt bikes full open throttle through the California deserts 15 or so years ago, riding older bikes without a steering damper.   They were harrowing experiences.  I did the same at low speed (really more of a lowside-highside initiated slapper event, coming too fast out of a turn with too-worn rubber and grit in the roadway) when I was in college, and went down with the bike.   I won't ride a bike without a steering damper, period.  The risk isn't worth the reward.

Two quotes from that article above:

 

One journalist:

"However, the GS did disappoint me during a casual ride down an open dirt road. I was standing up to get cool air through my riding gear, traveling about 45 mph, when I encountered a washboard section. In an instant and with seemingly no provocation, the bike went into a wild tankslapper that threatened to throw me from the bike. It was a very panicked second before the steering regained its composure." 

 

Said another:

"The only unpleasant shock during the whole 280-mile ride is a tankslapper so violent it snaps the lockstops off the frame. BMW chassis engineers seemed shocked to hear of it, claiming they never experienced anything of the sort in five long years and one million kilometers of testing. It does seem that I just happen to have stumbled on exactly the wrong combination of speed and road surface at the wrong time. Assuming it really is just a one-off – which, in all fairness, would appear to be the most likely explanation – then the new R1200GS is a remarkable machine."

 

I'm one of those guys who doubts coincidence.   I ~~might~~ ride an old dirt bike on fire trails without a damper, dirt still hurts, and it can still kill you, but I wouldn't do what I used to do riding fast over rough terrain without one.  I've unfortunately been injured in motorcycle falls too many times (one just last month!) to want just one more, now in my mid 60's.   Removing the damper on an RT or GS is just an insane, unnecessary risk to me.  But, then again, is riding without body armor or a helmet, and people do that without dying or getting hurt all the time, so to each his own. 

 

Edit:

Here's a follow-up article a year later.  I don't have the time to see if BMW ever compensated the Ash family for his death, or if there was other litigation involved, but again, the superficial initial evidence/reports are pretty convincing to me, give the reported circumstances of Ash's death.

 

"Now, let’s get to the even trickier part of the whole affair: the infamous tankslapper reports and the steering damper. It appears like some guys riding the new R1200GS reported the bike’s front end wobbling without any sort of warning on perfect roads and in straight lines. Various types of steering neck shakes have also been reportedly experienced by other riders in Brazil, too."

Kevin Ash's Death Still Needs Some Explanations
 

[Blue7]

Sorry, Scott9999 for bringing the topic back. It's important for me now for sure. Have a great day to you all until i can add something more. I head into Italy soon...

[Scott9999]

3 minutes ago, Blue7 said:

Sorry, Scott9999 for bringing the topic back. It's important for me now for sure. Have a great day to you all until i can add something more. I head into Italy soon...

Oh, my friend, please don't misinterpret my humor.  It was pointed at me, not you (i.e. how I waste my time, lol).  Welcome to the forum, and have safe ride.

Your comments were as valid as anyone else's, and I (we all) welcome them!

 

👍🍻

[Blue7]

Thanks, Scott. I appreciate that. Talk soon...

[Blue7]

I found some twisties, but remember I'm chill on it all, up to a monastery close by, handles a lot better. I gotta get on a fast road tomorrow to test that.

[Randyjaco]

Being an old guy, back in the dark ages, when a tire/wheel (think loose spokes) got out of line, that afor mentioned resonance would occur at high speed. If you had ever happened to you at 80 mph, you would experience a Major brown stain moment or worst. It is much less apt to happen now days. But I can understand why they included it. A cracked/broken wheel could trigger it. That oscillation can be deadly 

[duckhawk64]

My 81 r80rt had a damper. Looks like it was stock for the r100, option for the r80, see attached owner's manual page. 

I bounced that bike off a  left sweeper curb  doing 30 mph in 96, and it ricocheted back onto the road. The damper didn't have any effect, maybe. It was my own fault, early springtime,  low front tire pressure. That taught me a lesson. I also vowed to always drive low center of gravity boxers, which I have.

 

 

[Paul De]

Umm, wait-what!?   

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, duckhawk64 said:

My 81 r80rt had a damper. Looks like it was stock for the r100, option for the r80, see attached owner's manual page. 

I bounced that bike off a  left sweeper curb  doing 30 mph in 96, and it ricocheted back onto the road. The damper didn't have any effect, maybe. It was my own fault, early springtime,  low front tire pressure. That taught me a lesson. I also vowed to always drive low center of gravity boxers, which I have.

 

 

 

Morning  duckhawk64

 

What am I missing here? I don't see anything about a steering damper in your owners manual page. (but the r100 did have a friction type steering damper as well as hydraulic damper for some)

 

The only thing I see even related to damping is the "Nivomat", that is not a steering damper but is a self-levelling rear shock that had a rubber bellows. 

[duckhawk64]

Mine must have been aftermarket. 

[duckhawk64]

Found it.

[Paul De]

Yes 3 position selector. One of my friends had a R75/6 with one. My 1971 /5 had the what I would call a steering death damper which was essentially a threaded rod with a lock nut that.could be tightened to the point of cinching the forks to no movement. Even though that vintage of boxer bike only had a 54” wheelbase I left the damper fully loose because the fork rake and trail was pretty conservative.  Besides any squirrely handling on that bike had more to do with 8” of softly damped fork travel and not the short wheelbase, or fork geometry. Haha the front forks had 4” of sag coming off the center stand and with all that slack fork travel you could get the rear air born over a quick rise in the road and the front wheel would stay planted. So weird to be airborne but still able to steer.  But I digress.

[Blue7]

From North Italy through Les Orres mountains into France, a long day yesterday with no damper. All better than with my gummy damper included. Again I will look into a replacement damper later but the sheer panic I sometimes read about not having a damper misses some practical concerns. I realize also I probably, because of preference, will need risers and hopefully wider bars to get to where I'm comfortable. All that for another thread of course but any insight welcome for those things. Regardless, you fine gentleman have been very helpful with insights as I learn more about my R850R purchase.