Engine Failure?

[MichiganBob]

Sorry to hear about your troubles Devil Duc. I'm curious about BMW picking us some of the costs. I'm not usually pessimistic but after dealing with BMW and riding them since 1971, BMW doesn't strike me as a particularly generous corporation, particularly the motorcycle wing of the company.  This is based in part on their reluctance to admit design or manufacturing issues and recalling (or as they say, have a campaign) to fix the issue.  I hope they step up to the plate and would love to hear that they will defray some of the costs. Let us know please and good luck.

 

B

[JamesW]

I know opinions are like you know what but if it were me I would cut my loses and get what I could for this bike and then go shopping and NOT for a BMW.

[TEWKS]

2 hours ago, JamesW said:

 I would cut my loses and get what I could for this bike and then go shopping and NOT for a BMW.

 

James, I would have never expected that from you...

About that bike I posted, if it's a legit ad, I'd try and contact him, similar bikes are priced three to five grand more. Whether they'll sell at those prices.

[Devil Duc]

Good afternoon folks,

 

Update:

Talked with manager at the dealership this past Tuesday and they run their service and sales departments as separate entities so they could only offer me $2000 for the bike.  So that is a no go.  He said the'd have $7k in repairs on a bike they could maybe get $10k.  

 

But... the initial answer from BMW, while I was there talking with the manager, on asking for help was NOT an immediate 'NO'.  It was instruction to the dealer to inquire with their area account manager.  So there was just the faintest glimmer of hope.  Then to add to the hope, I got a text message from the service manager Thursday night asking if I had any service records from the dealer I bought it from.  That was a no, I do not have records.  However, I remembered looking through the owner's manual at the dealer the day I bought the bike and recalled that it was maintained.  Dug up the book to look again and sure enough, it had dealer stamps and signatures from the pre-delivery inspection, 600 mile service, and every 6k miles after that up to the mileage that I bought it at. The only thing missing was the oil and filter change that I did this spring after I put 6k on the bike (and I bought the oil and two filters from this current dealer here near me.  Oh, and the tires I had put on it (different story)).  I consider this to be a good thing as it is at least some proof that the bike was at least at dealerships for service on the suggested intervals.

 

Here's to still hoping!

Aaron

[PadG]

I can see potential issues coming up with BMW regarding the fact that you did that oil change yourself, especially since it is directly related to the big-end bearing failures!  So, I hope that you have good record, like receipts, for the oil and filter that you had used.  Even then, BMW may try to use that to deny any responsibilities.  I hope not, but I will give you some preemptive data to counter that possibility!

 

It seems that several years ago, BMW had denied a Mini owner warranty coverage because that owner did NOT use Mini dealership for the servicing of his car.  Details: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/mini-cooper-illegally-denied-warranty-repairs-ftc-031915.html

 

The whole thing went to court, and BMW lost.  Here is the comment from the FTC: https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/blog/2015/03/not-so-mini-problem

 

Details of the case: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2015/03/bmw-settles-ftc-charges-its-mini-division-illegally-conditioned

[MikeB60]

Kind of irrelevant, it's out of warranty.  

[realshelby]

3 hours ago, MikeB60 said:

Kind of irrelevant, it's out of warranty.  

Yes.....and no. There are things we expect to be covered under warranty. Stuff than can go wrong but still shouldn't. Once a bike gets some miles on it and nothing goes wrong ( most bikes ) you can figure it is well built and should serve well.

 

A connection rod bearing should never fail like this. Even had the bike never had the oil changed, this should not happen. It would be hard to make this happen even if you tried to. Even running it low on oil would show up in the other bearings and cams for instance. So, this was a manufacturing error. And many companies will step in and make that right. It is good business to do so. 

[Skywagon]

Aaron I am hopeful for you.  Sounds like you have all the docs you need to have a chance.  There is a distinct possibility BMW may furnish parts and you pay labor.  I've seen this kind of thing many times.  Here is recent example for me:

 

My home is full of Viking appliances.  They are now 10 years old (same as our house).  The built in (expensive) refrigerator took a dump.  I wrote to the CEO a nice letter with my disappointment and was surprised after buying all Viking for my home, such a device would fail.  I know the warranty is only 2 years but would have expected the refrigerator to last a lifetime......CEO's don't like messes and will often tell customer service make this go away.  Long story short...they did.  The local repair guys came out and said the letter hit home and all was free including their labor....  Ive used this approach on many things from flashlights, to cars, to insurance claims, etc....Michelin gave me a free tire one time when a bolt went through the sidewall.

 

I still believe in be nice...ask for help...ask for assistance.  The moment you get on your horse and start being a turd, they will flush your claim.  Sounds like you have been doing all the right stuff.

 

Good luck...crossing my fingers.

[MikeB60]

Terry, I got it and hope BMW does the right thing. Just not sure that BMW got nailed in court over a warranty claim on a Mini has anything to do with this issue.

 

[Pappy35]

BMW owns Mini but regardless the same laws apply to any similar situation (OEM vs. Consumer in a warranty claim case). If it's a matter of law governing warranty issues, ford/GM/Mini/BMW, it's all the same I would think. 

[Devil Duc]

Legal precedent, I think that might be called. Thank you gents. Hopefully it doesn't come to that since I dont think the juice would be worth the squeeze. But at least the precedent is there.

[PadG]

That's the point! 

 

I am always a fighter.  Had a similar situation (NO, not as serious) many years back.  The computer in my SAAB 9000CDE failed, well out of warranty, and so I wrote a nice letter to SAAB and ended up with them providing new computer, and I paid for the labor, which (at the time) was about $180.

 

[JamesW]

Yeah, good luck with BMW, right!  My R1100 needed the two O-rings for the cam sprocket covers on both heads replaced a couple days ago, slight old leaks.  BMW cost for two lousy O-rings is $14.40.  Lucky for me the local True Value now stocks metric O-rings so I got by for only $2.38  My point is how dumb does BMW consider their customers to be?  What was the cost of a short block for a wethead $4.5K?  

 

I'm following this thread just out of curiosity and I do hope for a good outcome for the OP because warranty or no warranty this failure shouldn't have happened and the cost for repair is just so over the top as to be unbelievable.  My first BMW was a new '77 R100/7.  It was out of warranty by a couple months and the mileage was over 12K when it blew a cam shaft oil seal.  I called the dealer and with no hesitation he said he would replace it at no charge because the failure just shouldn't have happened.  But that was then and the dealer closed years ago, Federal Way, WA. BMW/Kawasaki. 

[PadG]

If you do decide to rebuild that engine, I do have one precaution in that you need to find the root-cause for the big-end bearing failure!  Typically, a journal bearing will fail catastrophically, like yours, when the oil pressure drops for some reason(s).  You need to determine what the reasons are and fix it first.  It could be oil pump failure, or blockage in the oil line (that was why I narrowed in on the fuzz on your magnetic plug, earlier on).  Journal bearings, when operating properly, do not have any metal-to-metal contact.  The bearing pin is literally supported by a film of pressurized oil.  Metal-to-metal contact is the clunking or knocking sound that you had heard to signal the bearing failure.

[Devil Duc]

9 hours ago, PadG said:

If you do decide to rebuild that engine, I do have one precaution in that you need to find the root-cause for the big-end bearing failure!  Typically, a journal bearing will fail catastrophically, like yours, when the oil pressure drops for some reason(s).  You need to determine what the reasons are and fix it first.  It could be oil pump failure, or blockage in the oil line (that was why I narrowed in on the fuzz on your magnetic plug, earlier on).  Journal bearings, when operating properly, do not have any metal-to-metal contact.  The bearing pin is literally supported by a film of pressurized oil.  Metal-to-metal contact is the clunking or knocking sound that you had heard to signal the bearing failure.

 

Afternoon sir,

 

No further news from BMW yet, and waiting on that to make the next decision point.  Good call on root causing the problem; it is something that is next up for the service manager and I to figure out.  A new oil pump is part of the quote so that will not be a part of the the next problem (hopefully).  I do have a line out on a non-BMW affiliated shop that I would reach out to if BMW flat out refuses to help.  https://anschutzmotorsports.com/services   But I have a feeling that the more time that passes, the harder it will be to zero in on the root cause.  Especially since the engine is in pieces and a different shop would have to back track quite a bit to attempt to figure out if the oil pump failed or what oil passage got blocked or whatever.  Whichever way it ends up going, anything less than a whole brand new engine is going to be some level of gamble.  I feel that the least gamble will be a factory warrantied repair, especially if it gets the nod from the mother ship.

 

Aaron

[Bradysdad]

Sorry to hear of your issues. Tough spot to be in. May I ask where in WI you are located and which BMW dealer you are working with 

 

I just purchased a 2017 RT from Mischler’s BMW in Beaver Dam and can speak highly of their commitment to customer service.  I see the non BMW repair shop you listed is in Manitowoc. I would assume you are in the Green Bay area?

 

Regardless, best of luck on your repairs/decisions. 

[Devil Duc]

17 hours ago, Bradysdad said:

Sorry to hear of your issues. Tough spot to be in. May I ask where in WI you are located and which BMW dealer you are working with 

 

I just purchased a 2017 RT from Mischler’s BMW in Beaver Dam and can speak highly of their commitment to customer service.  I see the non BMW repair shop you listed is in Manitowoc. I would assume you are in the Green Bay area?

 

Regardless, best of luck on your repairs/decisions. 

 

Good afternoon,

 

Sent you a message about dealer.  Don't want to put out what may be conceived as a smear since this is still up in the air.

 

Still no word on anything yet... and I'm beginning to lose a little patience.  I understand that it is my choice to wait for BMW's word on assistance but it has been 6 weeks, which works out to 3000 miles that I would have put on the bike.  Makes driving the car that much worse.  But at least I had A/C during this past warm spell!

 

Aaron

[Devil Duc]

Afternoon folks,

 

Good news!  Manager at dealer called today to confirm that BMW is going to do a goodwill act and cover 50% of all parts and labor to replace the short block as quoted by the dealership.  I am pretty happy with that as I was prepared for them to say "Good luck, dude, you're on your own."  Waiting to hear from service manager as to when I can get that hoss back on the road.  Hoping that any lost faith in the brand from this thread is restored.

 

Aaron

[Pappy35]

Well. Now ain't that something. Still sucks that it happened but now it only sucks half as much! 

 

I had 2003 Honda Civic that blew it's transmission at 80k miles and two years out of warranty. Honda bought the tranny and I paid to install it. Did it still suck? Yes. But I was happy that they did something they didn't have to. Great way to build good will within the hive mind.

[Skywagon]

Aaron….I highly suspect that it has a great deal with the way you dealt with them from dealer to region to HQ, professionally versus threatening..  I also suspect from one of your prior notes having done all the required maintenance through BMW except the last oil change (if I remember correctly) this had a good deal of consideration from BMW.

 

I know you had not planned on doing half an overhaul when you bought the bike, but honestly this is really great news.  You will have a new engine almost.  I wish you many happy repair free miles and remember...it does sometimes help to stay loyal to the dealer and the brand.  All things considered...a good outcome for a bad situation.

 

[LAF]

Great news for you!

 

[MichiganBob]

Bravo!!!!

[Oldrider51]

Good for you, but I guess that this is all BMW will do even when though know they should do more, my 87 K75S ate the splines out of the driveshaft at 29,000 miles years ago and all BMW paid was 50%, it was also out of warranty.

[Devil Duc]

Good afternoon folks!

 

Finally got to pick up the bike yesterday afternoon.  There was a problem with no oil pressure after they had it back together the first time, and it turns out the short block was missing a couple small parts between the trans and case or the work instructions from BMW failed to mention that the parts needed to be transferred from the old to the new.  So the tech had to tear it all apart a second time.  But all seems to be good now: the engine seems slightly more quiet compared to before the 'event' (less mechanical thrashing noise), there seems to be just a touch less torque, but is made up on the top end.  The trans feels MUCH smoother on shifting now with way less banging on gearshifts.  There was no recommended break in procedure; they said just ride it and bring it back in 600 miles for inspection and oil change.  The appointment is for next Saturday and we'll see how it looks then.  It was down for 10 weeks and I forgot how much I missed it.  My friend who bought my '07 and I went for a ride last night and we caught the perfect light for a photo op near a river... Enjoy!

 

Semper Fidelis, 

Aaron 

[TEWKS]

Glad the bad is over and done with and I hope for a happy hundred thou! 

[John in VA]

Congrats! Now reward the bike with some of this stuff for those brown pipes:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003XJ1ODM

 

[Paul De]

Glad to hear that your terrible odyssey is over and you still have plenty of good riding weather yet to take advantage of.

[RoadRunner]

Aaron,  Just reading your posts.  I know it won't help you at this point but a friend with a '17 GS that "split both cases".  The rod came loose and cracked the case causing complete engine failure.   Replaced with new engine and transmission.   And this is why I never own a BMW without an extended service contract.   

 

  

[Devil Duc]

4 minutes ago, RoadRunner said:

Aaron,  Just reading your posts.  I know it won't help you at this point but a friend with a '17 GS that "split both cases".  The rod came loose and cracked the case causing complete engine failure.   Replaced with new engine and transmission.   And this is why I never own a BMW without an extended service contract.   

 

  

Good evening,

The new block that BMW and I split comes with a 2 year unlimited mileage warranty on parts and labor.  I figure that might get me by with regard to risk-vs-reward and decided to use certified service for all the engine maintenance while it is under warranty.  That will be a bit more $$ than the DIY oil changes and maintenance that I'm used to doing, but considering the shop had never done this repair I believe it will be good insurance in not giving anyone a leg to stand on to not honor the warranty if it ever comes to that.  We're just not in a position right now to spring for an extended warranty on this machine, and, frankly, the longevity and history of reliability (generally speaking, and not the case in this particular example) is one of the many reasons why I choose to ride BMW bikes. I'll put 16-18k miles per year on this bike over then next 4-6 years.  An extended warranty is definitely something I'll consider in the future though.  Just have to do the math and weigh the risk.  Thanks for the thoughts!  This forum sure was a big help in this whole endeavor.  Just to talk it out with like minded folks was a big eye opener.  Big thanks to everyone here, you all are THE Best! 

 

Aaron

[JamesW]

I think I'll keep my oilhead.

[TEWKS]

16 hours ago, JamesW said:

I think I'll keep my oilhead.

James, you know you really want one.. 

[Marty Hill]

On 10/3/2019 at 9:28 PM, JamesW said:

I think I'll keep my oilhead.

Why, because one guy in a hundred thousand had a problem?   

[KMC1]

Just came across this thread. Just bought a 2016 RT. Just gonna say I am very impressed with BMW for helping out this gentleman, this was a major failure and even though still expensive, that is a very large demonstration of good will they provided. 

[AndyS]

On 10/4/2019 at 2:28 AM, JamesW said:

I think I'll keep my oilhead.

 

You know James, I have a very good 2017 RT and  It gets boring for people to keep reading it, but overall I prefer my 1150RT to all the RT's i'v ridden. The Wethead is indeed WAY better and more reliable and less  maintenance than the Oilhead, but that Oilhead is just  gorgeous bike. My advice is, if you like our Oilhead keep it and enjoy it. However, I wouldn't knock the Wetheads. They are great bikes.

[JamesW]

Hi Andy,  that's probably good advice.  When I first became interested in BMWs back in '75 and bought my first one (new '77 R75/7) I liked the simplicity and relative ease of diy maintenance.  BMW's motto at the time was "Simple by choice" and it was true.  Over the years simplicity has gone by the wayside and not just for BMW.  Long and short is I'm close to ending my motorcycling career altogether because of age and I know times have changed and not necessarily for the better, imo.  So, you are probably right when you say Wetheads are great bikes especially in today's world which is far different than the world of my youth, sad but true.

 

Hey, talk about complex try doing a valve check and adjustment on an FJR, Grrrrrrr......  Truth be told I would like to test ride a new R1250 just to say I did.  Almost afraid to do it because I might really like it. lol..lol..

[Red]

Andy,

I've told many people if I could find a new 1996 Glacier Green, I'd buy it in a heart beat.  I saw one at the Billings, MT MOA rally with 5,000 on the clock.  Never could find the owner to make him/her an offer.  The 96 did everything I wanted a bike to do and it did it well and it was also beeuteefull.  I don't need any of the operating/monitoring/navigating stuff my 2018 has.  The 96 had an electric windshield and heated grips, plenty of power, all a guy could want.

[JamesW]

Hi Red,

Check out the BMW MOA site and the Market Place under RT adds.  There is an R1100RT in Boston Green for sale with only 2650 miles in Polson Montana.

Seller wants $6K and is firm.  I talked with him about a year ago and if I was after an R1100RT I would go for it in a heartbeat. Maybe 6K is a bit steep but in the end what the hey?  I believe the bike has new tires and was serviced at the Missoula BMW dealer.  Slap an Innovate Motor Sports LC-2 or an AFXIED on it and go for a ride.  Well, maybe change out the seat while you're at it.

[Paul De]

I would love to get $6K for my '99 R1100RT, but that is not a likely expectation and in 2015 the dealer offered half that on trade in. I agree with Andy the Oilheads, have the beautiful bodacious lines that still get nice bike comments to this day and I am glad I kept it instead of trading it in.  While mine isn't the Glacier Green Red is looking for, it is the much faster Boston Green color.  I still enjoy riding my old trusty friend and it is still a great touring bike...but, my 2015 is intoxicating to ride and I really do get more smiles per mile on my Wethead.