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Devil Duc

Engine Failure?

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Devil Duc

Hey all,

Any hear of a 2015 R1200RT engine failing? Waiting for a tow right now. Noise started like some valve ticking, progress to a kind of squeal tick, then a knock. Got it to the side and it was clunking and banging accompanied by power loss. Felt a vibration in the clutch lever when it was pulled in while coasting to the side of the highway. Anyway, I'll try and tear off a valve cover and have a peak at the oil this weekend. Oh and there's 50,700 miles on it.

Semper Fidelis, 

Aaron

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Skywagon

get a hold of the dealer first...even though out of mileage warranty BMW may help if they get first look.  If you take the valve covers off and parts fall in your hands your chances will go down.  The dealer is your friend in this case as you need them to lobby BMW on your behalf.

 

No...never heard of the new RT engines coming apart.  If you have receipts for their recommended oil changes etc, it would be good to gather them up.

 

Good luck...keep us posted.

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Devil Duc

I got to thinking about this and I think it's a conrod to crank bearing that failed since there were no warning lights on the dash. So is there a low compression sensor? If there is then the conrod to crank bearing coming apart makes sense since that would account for the noise and the compression would keep the piston from banging into the head and valves. I figured I couldn't do more dage and fired it when I got home and it lit right up, then i shut it off right away after 1 second. It lit fine with no warning lights. Oil level is good. Wife took me out for a beer so didn't get to tearing it apart yet but I'm Leary of the local dealer. They changed ownership in the last few years and got pretty corporate like and I dont trust them to argue in my behalf since why do they care to spend time doing that when it's easier to get.my cash than big BMW's? A new short block looks to be about $4500.  I bought the bike used almost exactly a year ago with 39k on the clock and did a fly and ride so that dealer is pretty much put of the equation. I got receipts for the last two oil changes that I did myself, plus one set of tires. That is the extent of the maintenance i have done. Looking for ideas for a path forward... any other advice would be welcome. This is my first foray into this type of situation so I'm kind of at a loss for how to proceed.

Semper Fidelis, 

Aaron

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TEWKS

Like the dealership or not, I would do exactly as David suggested. There's a chance they (BMW) may cover some of it. (especially in the age of Internet) Got nothing to lose in trying, if you pull it apart it's all you. :dontknow:

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dirtrider
8 hours ago, Devil Duc said:

I got to thinking about this and I think it's a conrod to crank bearing that failed since there were no warning lights on the dash. So is there a low compression sensor? If there is then the conrod to crank bearing coming apart makes sense since that would account for the noise and the compression would keep the piston from banging into the head and valves. I figured I couldn't do more dage and fired it when I got home and it lit right up, then i shut it off right away after 1 second. It lit fine with no warning lights. Oil level is good. Wife took me out for a beer so didn't get to tearing it apart yet but I'm Leary of the local dealer. They changed ownership in the last few years and got pretty corporate like and I dont trust them to argue in my behalf since why do they care to spend time doing that when it's easier to get.my cash than big BMW's? A new short block looks to be about $4500.  I bought the bike used almost exactly a year ago with 39k on the clock and did a fly and ride so that dealer is pretty much put of the equation. I got receipts for the last two oil changes that I did myself, plus one set of tires. That is the extent of the maintenance i have done. Looking for ideas for a path forward... any other advice would be welcome. This is my first foray into this type of situation so I'm kind of at a loss for how to proceed.

Semper Fidelis, 

Aaron

 

Morning Aaron

 

The BMW engine is a 4 cycle engine so there is no compression on the exhaust stroke, so compression won't keep a piston from hitting cylinder head on the exhaust stroke if connecting rod bearing is REALLY bad or has extreme or excess clearance.

 

With you feeling the problem in the clutch lever maybe your problem is clutch basket related (BMW had some issues in this area)

 

I sort of agree with the above suggestions about dealer involvement & sort of don't.

 

You are the 2nd owner of a BMW motorcycle that is well out of factory warranty & not buying the motorcycle from the dealer that you expect help from while doing the service yourself. None of these things will give your local dealer much incentive to help you get BMW to pick up the check.

 

Personally I would want  more info on exactly what has failed before getting the dealer involved -- If it looks like a definite defect from the factory build or engine assembly, or other BMW  induced failure, or known a problem then  do try to get the local dealer involved.

 

A little exploratory work before dealer involvement might give you some ammo  and some  pre-knowledge to argue your case.

 

If you do try to get the dealer involved then make darn sure it has a BMW approved oil filter on it (in most cases that is a BMW bought filter). Make sure that your oil change receipts show that you used a BMW approved motor oil of the proper viscosity with correct  additive package for a wet clutch, make sure that you have some documentation showing other REQUIRED services (like valve adjustments,  air filter service, etc all the way back to time of purchase) -- Hopefully original owner had a BMW dealer  do his services on time, or at least gave you  the service records if service was done by him or an independent shop.

 

BMW has been known to help on out-of-warranty failures but you best have (any & all) of your required service ducks in a nice neat row or they will tell you to pound sand. 

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Cap

You say it fired up after the incident. I can’t imagine how an engine with a broken con rod would run.  I am curious to hear what you discover when you (have your mechanic, dealer or otherwise) tear into it.

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PadG
4 minutes ago, Cap said:

You say it fired up after the incident. I can’t imagine how an engine with a broken con rod would run.  I am curious to hear what you discover when you (have your mechanic, dealer or otherwise) tear into it.

If you read his post again, I think that you will find that he meant the failure of the big-end bearing, which will happen if you have very low or no oil pressure.  Not sure if that is the problem, but that's what he wrote.

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Devil Duc

Roofed all day yesterday on a friends house. Dropped oil and filter this morning. Drain plug doesn't look good. Will try to attach image. The only maintenance I've done is change oil and filter with BMW's branded stuff after I put 6k miles on after purchase. Everything looked fine then. That was 5k miles ago. Oh and new tires. I have no service records besides receipt for oil, filter, crush ring.

 

Plan to look under valve covers, if nothing apparent then pull front cover to crank by hand while feeling piston movement through spark plug holes.

 

I'll contact dealer first chance. They're close Sunday and Monday. 

20190623_120753.jpg

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dirtrider
6 minutes ago, Devil Duc said:

Roofed all day yesterday on a friends house. Dropped oil and filter this morning. Drain plug doesn't look good. Will try to attach image. The only maintenance I've done is change oil and filter with BMW's branded stuff after I put 6k miles on after purchase. Everything looked fine then. That was 5k miles ago. Oh and new tires. I have no service records besides receipt for oil, filter, crush ring.

 

Plan to look under valve covers, if nothing apparent then pull front cover to crank by hand while feeling piston movement through spark plug holes.

 

I'll contact dealer first chance. They're close Sunday and Monday. 

 

 

Afternoon  Devil Duc

 

That drain plug could go either way, that junk doesn't look good but doesn't positively show a catastrophic engine failure, BUT bearing alloy doesn't stick to a magnet so who knows.

 

Best thing to look at is to remove, then carefully cut the oil filter open as those trap about everything. Then stretch the inner paper element out & take a look see.

 

You can also tell a lot with a compression test.

 

Also remove the spark plugs, then rotate crankshaft so piston reaches TDC, then rotate crankshaft a bit farther so  piston is being pulled down the bore by the connecting rod.

 

Now go in through the spark plug hole with a long wooden dowel & give the piston a good push. If it moves in the bore more than a thousandth or two then you have a serious problem in that  side  rod upper bushing or lower bearing.

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Devil Duc

Any trick to getting front engine cover off? Got it loose but there isn't enough clearance between the suspension to get the cover free. If not, I'll refit the cover and try getting TDC by spinning the wheel with it in gear.

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dirtrider
8 minutes ago, Devil Duc said:

Any trick to getting front engine cover off? Got it loose but there isn't enough clearance between the suspension to get the cover free. If not, I'll refit the cover and try getting TDC by spinning the wheel with it in gear.

 

Evening Devil Duc

 

I don't know about a trick but manual says to use rear wheel stand (to hold the bike upright) then with rear wheel off the ground compress the front suspension to gain clearance to cover.

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Devil Duc

I'm out of gas today, it was a long weekend. Tomorrow I'll have to pick up a 1/2 to 3/8 adapter and the I can try cranking by turning the wheel while in gear.

 

I did crank with a quick blip of starter and checked for play in both pistons but I know needs to be done just past tdc. Found no play btw.

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Bernie

If you remove the spark plugs and put the transmission into 6th gear, you should be able to rotate the engine without removing the front clutch cover.

 

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PadG

Just a thought, after looking at the picture of the drain plug.  There had been several cases of cam "failure" in several of the wethead boxers.  By failure, I mean that the cam(s) wears very rapidly, due to improper manufacturing hardening process.  Very large quantities of material had been shown (photos) to have been worn away, even after a very low mileage (800 miles on the odometer in one case).  The material from the worn cam would accumulate on the magnetic plug just like that!  So, when you get the valve cover off, make sure that you also take a very good look at the cams.

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Devil Duc
7 minutes ago, PadG said:

Just a thought, after looking at the picture of the drain plug.  There had been several cases of cam "failure" in several of the wethead boxers.  By failure, I mean that the cam(s) wears very rapidly, due to improper manufacturing hardening process.  Very large quantities of material had been shown (photos) to have been worn away, even after a very low mileage (800 miles on the odometer in one case).  The material from the worn cam would accumulate on the magnetic plug just like that!  So, when you get the valve cover off, make sure that you also take a very good look at the cams.

Good morning,  

All the cams appeared to my untrained eye to be in good shape. At work now, but I'll get images of both sides showing the valve train to see if anyone else might spot something that I missed. There was a strange cut out on the round side of the cams opposite the point end that at first I that may be the culprit, but all the cams looked the same and it was very uniform across the set. I'll try to get that captured in the images too.

 

Thanks for the help, it is much appreciated. Keep it coming!

 

Semper Fidelis, 

Aaron

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PadG

BTW, I mis-read your post about taking the front engine cover off, and thinking that you were going to take the valve cover off!!  :)

 

Anyway, if the cams had problems, you will definitely see the signs.  Very hard to miss.  That cut-out is supposed to be there.

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Pappy35

That cut out is the oil scupper (or whatever it's called). That feature permits oil to between the cam follower and the cam itself.

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Devil Duc

Thanks for the info on the scupper, Pappy and PadG. That makes sense.

 

I'm really hoping its something trans/clutch related. That would make sense in that there were no warning lights and I could feel a faint pulse in the clutch lever as I was getting it off the highway. How would one go about checking that?

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dirtrider
16 minutes ago, Devil Duc said:

Thanks for the info on the scupper, Pappy and PadG. That makes sense.

 

I'm really hoping its something trans/clutch related. That would make sense in that there were no warning lights and I could feel a faint pulse in the clutch lever as I was getting it off the highway. How would one go about checking that?

 

Afternoon  Devil Duc   

 

Might have to go in & look (you have the cover part way off anyhow).

 

You might put the trans in 6th gear then move the rear wheel within it's play to see if the clutch is holding or any REAL STRANGE noises show up. 

 

 

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Devil Duc

Port side....

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Devil Duc

Starboard side....    not allowing me more MB's.

20190624_164137.jpg

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dirtrider
8 minutes ago, Devil Duc said:

Starboard side....    not allowing me more MB's.

 

 

 

Evening  Devil Duc

 

Difficult to tell a lot from 2d pictures but I don't see any smoking guns.

 

Have you checked the valve lash?  You might do a quick valve lash check, if you find one way loose then possibly that indicates a valve problem on that valve (like bent valve or?).   

 

Personally, I probably wouldn't have even gone this far with inspection without  opening up the oil filter to see what that has trapped. What you find in the oil filter can tell you a LOT.  

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Devil Duc

Thanks DR! I'm planning on trying to get into the filter tonight. Life happens and I've just been banging out what I can do at that particular time when I get a few minutes. Will report back what I find if I get to it.

 

Aaron

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Cap
14 hours ago, Devil Duc said:

Port side....

 

What did the sparkplugs look like?  Was there any difference between them?

 

You describe a rapid progression of events, with discrete loud knocking noises and loss of power.  And in retrospect, a fair accumulation of ferromagnetic filings on the oil drain plug.  As DR points out, bearing babbitt failures tend to have non-magnetic debris, which in my experience is shiny gold-brown in color.  A ball-bearing can fail and produce metal shavings -- and would produce a knocking noise once per revolution.  Did you notice the frequency of the noise change? Was it related to road speed, or engine RPM?  When you restarted the engine in neutral, did the knocking resume?

 

Inquiring minds want to know, :)

 

Cap

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dirtrider
14 hours ago, Devil Duc said:

Thanks DR! I'm planning on trying to get into the filter tonight. Life happens and I've just been banging out what I can do at that particular time when I get a few minutes. Will report back what I find if I get to it.

 

Aaron

 

 

Morning Aaron

 

Getting into a BMW oil filter without adding debris can be a challenge. In the past I have used a large pipe cutter (large enough to fit around the filter can)  as those cut without leaving shavings.

 

Now I use my lathe with a thin parting tool at very slow speed, that will leave large curlies but those stand out from any engine generated junk.

 

Don't use a hacksaw as that will leave debris that can look like engine generated meterial.

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Skywagon

there are oil filter cutters available. they range in price from about $50 to $200....I have a really nice one I use to cut airplane filters...a must.  If the OP wants to send me his filter I will cut it clean for him, lay it out, and take pictures.  Probably cost prohibitive but always glad to do it for BMWST folks.

 

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Devil Duc

Good evening fellas,

 

     Well, I gave up.  I just wasn't making fast enough headway with my knowledge, experience, and tools.  This bike gets me to work and back from late March to November (in WI) at a 100 miles per day round trip so it is important to me to get back on a bike soon.  Talked to the dealership down the road and the service manager was very understanding of the situation.  I told her the tale and she asked a few particulars and offered that she could start a ticket or reference or something with BMWNA, so here's hoping they come through and can help out if it is indeed a multi-thousand dollar repair.  She also offered that they could get into the filter with a filter cutter so I'm going to let them do that instead of me risking gooning it up.  The write  up of the 'event' and everything I did was emailed to her so she can evaluate it and use that in aiding the diagnosis and repairs if it comes to that.

 

13 hours ago, Cap said:

 

What did the sparkplugs look like?  Was there any difference between them?

 

You describe a rapid progression of events, with discrete loud knocking noises and loss of power.  And in retrospect, a fair accumulation of ferromagnetic filings on the oil drain plug.  As DR points out, bearing babbitt failures tend to have non-magnetic debris, which in my experience is shiny gold-brown in color.  A ball-bearing can fail and produce metal shavings -- and would produce a knocking noise once per revolution.  Did you notice the frequency of the noise change? Was it related to road speed, or engine RPM?  When you restarted the engine in neutral, did the knocking resume?

 

Inquiring minds want to know, :)

 

Cap

Hello, Cap: 

     Sparklers looked healthy and identical. The knocking was there when restarting the engine in neutral, but I did not rev on restart and kept revs down when nursing it to safety so not sure if was related to RPM because I was being as gentle as possible and therefore the frequency did not seem to change much. It was not related to road speed though. I totally understand the bearing material points that you and others have brought up and understand the need to get into the filter material. Not getting to it was a case of overthinking and over-planning on how to get into it without producing chips and a false positive or risk wrecking the element if it got pinched in the casing material by brute forcing it.  (Just started a mechanical engineering career in October at the ripe young age of 42, but that's another story...)  But good point on the roller bearing: it made me have a thought. Looking at the ascycles microfiche, it looks like the main bearing, PN 11 21 8 530 244, at the trans side of the crank is a cylindrical roller bearing... wonder if that failed? Because that might let everything work enough to fire, run, and shift but let enough play to bang the pistons into the valves and create some piston slap?

 

      Busy tomorrow night but made appointment for dealer to examine the bike Friday at 11 so hoping to have some follow up news at that point, so stay tuned.  I know how important this information may be to someone down the road if it happens to another rider, and will do my best to document it here for posterity.  The information and support on this forum is much appreciated and it is an honor to reciprocate, despite the circumstances.

 

Semper Fidelis,

Aaron

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Devil Duc

Good afternoon folks,

 

     Initial impression on diagnosis from dealer is unfavorable. Service manager called to ask permission to remove engine to further diagnose, at 6hrs labor at $120/hour. I owe around $10k on the bike so I figure any way I cut it, this will cost me at least $6k if it needs a short block. Short block is around $4.5k plus labor for R&R puts repair bill at around $6-7k. Dealer will likely not offer to buy it outright, and if they can sell it for $12k will still need to turn a profit while eating the $6k repair so might end up offering $4k, which still lands me in the hole $6k with no bike to boot. Trade in will increase likelihood of dealer taking the bike off my hands but still the most they would offer is likely in the $4k range or less again, plus the added financing on the cost of a new RT. BMWNA is the linchpin in the equation. It depends on what they come back with for assistance, if anything. I will say that if they offer nothing, my confidence in the BMW brand and reliability is shaken and there is way less chance of me returning to the brand for a future bike. It appears that the repair option has the highest chance of being the least costly. But at least a new short block comes with 2yr warranty. Service manager stated they have no options on the floor for a loaner bike, especially with the mileage it will see from me (100mi/day) during the duration of the loan. I told them to go ahead and start on removing engine since either way will need to be done and BMWNA will probably say they need to know what is wrong anyway. They won't get to it until next Saturday. 

     The plan since a few years ago was to drive my '07 RT until last year, then sell it and use the nut from the sale as down payment on this '15, drive the '15 for 3-5 years then sell and upgrade to a new one. We'll see yet. More info to come as I learn it...

 

Semper Fidelis,

Aaron

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Devil Duc

How much interest do you all think there would be if I were to part it out? That might actually be the best way to recoup the most value out of the machine...

 

Aaron

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Pappy35

I feel bad for you. For whatever it's worth, this just isn't something I  read about on the three forums and 2 Facebook groups I prowl. I'm betting that the previous owner did something really stupid (like ran it out of oil or something similar) and either never told the dealer, or the dealer repaired it and didn't report (not necessarily the one you are working with mind you). Major engine failures like this just don't happen much anymore due to a manufacturing error or design flaw. I mean, I'm sure it happens but so rarely that we just don't hear about it.

 

Is there any chance you could do the work yourself once the dealer conclusively determines what's failed?

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Pappy35
3 minutes ago, Devil Duc said:

How much interest do you all think there would be if I were to part it out? That might actually be the best way to recoup the most value out of the machine...

 

Aaron

 

Check EBay. Final drives, headlights, wheels and tires, exhaust, even parts of the engine would be fairly high value but not as much as you might think. 

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Pappy35

Keep in mind that the dealer's economics are not ( should not be) based on retail costs. A short block is not going to cost them four and half thousand and their direct labor costs won't be $120 an hour if they use the job as a filler for time that would otherwise be idle. I'd seriously consider selling it to them if they made an offer.

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Devil Duc
2 minutes ago, Pappy35 said:

I feel bad for you, especially given this isn't the first major failure you've had. For whatever it's worth, this just isn't something you read about on the three forums and 2 Facebook groups I prowl. I'm betting that the previous owner did something really stupid (like ran it out of oil or something similar) and either never told the dealer, or the dealer repaired and didn't report (not necessarily the one you are working with mind you). Major engine failures like this just don't happen much anymore due to a manufacturing error or design flaw. I mean, I'm sure it happens but so rarely that we just don't hear about it.

 

Is there any chance you could do the work yourself once the dealer conclusively determines what's failed?

 

I agree that it is not something you hear much about and one of the first thoughts that I had after the failure is 'I bought a bike that was not maintained the way BMW intended'.  I absolutely have given doing the work myself much thought.  The only reason it is at the dealer right now is because of the chance that BMWNA may assist with the cost.  The other thought I had is about how much confidence I might have in my own work.  Having the engine apart that far increases the chance that I make a mistake that would require even more time invested in it, a potential safety issue if something seizes or locks up in traffic, etc. there is something to be said for confidence in reliability day in and day out and over long trips. Can one put a price tag on that? Not sure that I can with how I use the bike.

 

Aaron

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Pappy35
6 minutes ago, Devil Duc said:

The other thought I had is about how much confidence I might have in my own work.  Having the engine apart that far increases the chance that I make a mistake that would require even more time invested in it, a potential safety issue if something seizes or locks up in traffic, etc. there is something to be said for confidence in reliability day in and day out and over long trips. Can one put a price tag on that? Not sure that I can with how I use the bike.

 

Aaron

 

I completely understand. I'm pretty handy but I don't think I'd attempt to tear it apart to this degree. I don't know though. For all they want for labor, well, you know, necessity is the mother of invention...

 

I have the BMW repair manual for my bike which goes a long way but still, I'd be sweating bullets every time I started it for a year after rebuilding it  worrying about what I may have overlooked. 

 

Best plan is what you've don't so far. Let the dealer tell you exactly what's wrong and what, if anything the mothership will do to help, and go from there. 

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Bernie

You may want to try to find a used motor from a wrecked bike. 

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Pappy35
13 hours ago, Bernie said:

You may want to try to find a used motor from a wrecked bike. 

 

It amazes me sometimes how the most simple solution doesn't occur to me. Great idea!

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Devil Duc

I've thought about a used part and have a message to Beemer boneyard asking about price and availability. Also asked about what they might give for my broken bike. The issues I have with a used part is warranty, was it maintained properly, will my work hold up to the test of time if I do it myself...

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Devil Duc

Good afternoon folks,

 

Update:

     Dealership started digging into the bike yesterday and and I got a call from the service manager.  She said they got the engine out and transmission off, and the trans looks good.  So they are waiting for delivery of a special tool that is I think to split the crank case.  This means no more news until the end of this coming week after tool is delivered and they can get back at it, but it doesn't sound good so far.  In any case, it looks like it will be a few more weeks until I get it back on the road since there is likely very few internal lower end parts in the BMW inventory in the country.  BMW NA wants to have a final diagnosis before they make any decision on assistance.  I also have wondered if my engine will end up in Germany for a closer examination...

 

     I did ask her to look into the possibility of transplanting a 1250 to see if it can be done with a 2015, just to check all the options if it gets that far.  The 1250 would be a good consolation prize if a guy has to have a new engine.

 

Hope everyone had an enjoyable holiday,

Aaron

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Pappy35
48 minutes ago, Devil Duc said:

I did ask her to look into the possibility of transplanting a 1250 to see if it can be done with a 2015, just to check all the options if it gets that far.  The 1250 would be a good consolation prize if a guy has to have a new engine.

 

That would be nice but you'd also need a new engine control computer so don't hold your breath.

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AZgman

and a wiring harness...

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Devil Duc



Good evening folks,

 

Finally have some definitive news to update here.  Heads looked good and dealer service shop got the tools from BMW in Germany to split case.  Long story short: connecting rod bearing failed.  We discussed two estimates, one to replace short block with pistons and crank and one to replace just the parts that were bad.  I visited the carnage today and noted some scoring on both piston skirts and some light areas of wear in the cylinders that they must have missed, and that told me to just go for the short block and skip all the work of rebuilding and worrying about a chip that might block another oil passage or whatever happened to cause this failure in the first place.  

 

No word from BMW NA yet.  I want to get back on the road and can fight them as we go from here as now we know what failed.  Tech said that the bearing may have been failing for quite some time now so who knows what the root cause is.  Waiting for estimate now, and waiting to see how long it will take to get the short block.  Thinking that these failures are pretty rare so the parts may not be very available.  New short block will come with 2 year warranty.  So that's a plus, but my luck will be a chunk of left over bearing will get stuck in head and then I'm out that.  Oh well, it's just stuff and money.  Still pretty disappointed but at least I'm here to tell the tale, right?

 

Semper Fidelis,

Aaron

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TEWKS

Yep, $ucks but you do have a great attitude about it! :thumbsup: LIke you said, big picture, things could be worse. I hope BMW helps you out with some of it.

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Devil Duc

What should I make with the leftover parts? I was thinking the crank shaft would make a pretty cool lamp.

20190717_161554.jpg

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Cap
On 6/21/2019 at 9:26 PM, Devil Duc said:

I got to thinking about this and I think it's a conrod to crank bearing that failed ...

 

Nice call.  Keep us posted when you have it running again.

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Devil Duc

Good morning,

 

Quote came through yesterday afternoon: $7450 for parts and labor to replace short block with crank and pistons plus diagnostic time.  Comes with two year warranty on parts and labor.  I have not seen any of the dialogue between the dealership service shop and BMW NA, nor have I gotten the reference number so I can use that when I call BMW, so I will ask to see all of that.  I will also ask the sales manager about possible trade in and have a sit down conversation to discuss some real possibilities there.  Used parts will also be a topic of conversation with the service manager. 

 

Anything else that you can think of to ask about?

 

Semper Fidelis,

Aaron 

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Pappy35

Yikes!

 

Maybe...ahem...it happens to get "stolen" and the burned out remains found a month later in some alley somewhere? I have some, eh, "acquaintances" that might be able to handle this for you at a modest cost...

 

But seriously, that's unreal. I know I'd be losing my mind over what to do. You'll have a 2015 with, essentially, a zero-time motor but you'll never recoup even half of that additional investment. I'd ask the deal to take it in on a trade and see how that looks financially overall. It's gonna be bad either way but maybe one way is less bad than the other. 

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TEWKS

See if the dealer will buy the bike from you and then pick up This one. :thumbsup:

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Devil Duc
23 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

See if the dealer will buy the bike from you and then pick up This one. :thumbsup:

 

Not a bad idea if the financials work out... is that yours or just local to you?

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TEWKS

Just local, it was $11k last week so it seems he wants to move it.

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LAF

That looks like a great deal.

 

I would rather wrap what I owe and that bike,  finance that amount, then keep dumping money on your current bike.

 

Seeing that chunk of metal I would never trust the bike again.

 

Any way I could, doing whatever I could with the dealer to get you out from under that bike, but with a significant financial blood bath.  I mean a dead bike sitting around isn't going to help much so trading it and even if you get 1-2K or whatever is better then trying to part it out or anything.

 

Sorry for your troubles.

 

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