owner maintenance

[JamesW]

Greetings wethead guys. I have read several posts on this and another forum that BMW dealers won't honor the warranty unless the new water cooled generation of BMW's are dealer maintained. I am not sure if this is true. As far as routine scheduled maintenance is concerned wouldn't you say that other than fluid (oil, final drive, brakes and clutch) what else really is there? I mean fluid changes aren't exactly rocket science. I know the new bikes don't come with even a basic tool kit but apparently some owners are investing in a GS911 diagnostic tool for their bikes so someone must be doing their own maintenance.

 

 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon James

 

That is kind of a vague area. As long as you do the service to BMW specifications & use BMW approved fluids then there isn't much that BMW can (legally) do to deny warranty coverage (it's sort of the law)

 

There are a couple of areas on this that make it a bit more difficult.

 

The first is proving that you did the service correctly & did ALL the required services including checking for stored codes & malfunctions. Documentation, fluid & parts receipts help here, & pictures of the service & code reading would surely help.

 

BMW has the burden to prove that what you did was the cause of any failure.

 

BUT!!!! all BMW has to do is say no to the warranty repair then it is up to you (& possibly a lawyer) to take them to court & force them to do the warranty repair.

 

My suggestion (& what I personally do) is to talk to your selling dealer about doing your own service & see how they react. My dealer is OK with me doing the service myself & has never threatened or otherwise said it would affect my warranty. (not all dealers are like this & if yours isn't then find another more progressive dealer)

[steve.foote]

Simply put, yes you can.

 

Do I have to use the dealer for repairs and maintenance to keep my warranty in effect?

 

No. An independent mechanic, a retail chain shop, or even you yourself can do routine maintenance and repairs on your vehicle. In fact, the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which is enforced by the FTC, makes it illegal for manufacturers or dealers to claim that your warranty is void or to deny coverage under your warranty simply because someone other than the dealer did the work. The manufacturer or dealer can, however, require consumers to use select repair facilities if the repair services are provided to consumers free of charge under the warranty.

 

That said, there may be certain situations where a repair may not be covered. For example, if you or your mechanic replaced a belt improperly and your engine is damaged as a result, your manufacturer or dealer may deny responsibility for fixing the engine under the warranty. However, according to the FTC, the manufacturer or dealer must be able to demonstrate that it was the improper belt replacement — rather than some other defect — that caused the damage to your engine. The warranty would still be in effect for other parts of your car.

 

FTC.gov - Auto Warranties and Routine Maintenance

 

Edited September 12, 2016 by RightSpin

[JamesW]

Yes, and BMW motor oil isn't cheap at what, $18/quart?

[AlanS.]

That is why I use Shell Rotella T6. ~$25 a gallon at Walmart. It meets the specs in the owners manual of being SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2.

 

Alan

[dirtrider]

Morning JamesW

 

You don't HAVE TO use BMW (or BMW recommended) motor oil but it must meet BMW specifications . (for your 1200W/C I believe that is SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2)

 

To retain warranty coverage of your engine (at least without the need for legal action) you really should use a BMW approved classification motor oil. (and keep all receipts to show that you used the correct oil)

 

By law BMW can't require you to use THEIR specific motor oil unless they supply it for free but they can basically put about any specification on it that they deem necessary for engine life & longevity.

 

The last few years BMW has used this, loop hole if you will, to specify a motor oil that is difficult to find in anything but their supplied oil or European offerings that are difficult/expensive to find in the USA.

 

It's kind of a gray area at the moment as there are a LOT of current motor oils that would work OK in the newer BMW 800/1200/1600 engines but they don't carry the MA 2 rating as they are basically automotive motor oils so the oil companies just don't bother or pay the price to have them certified for MA compliance. (just not a large enough market for them to do so)

 

Motorcycle shop/dealer sold motor oil is a VERY BIG cash cow for them (huge mark up) so that is one place you might dicker with them when buying a new motorcycle (last new BMW that I bought new I dickered in as part of the deal that they sell me 4 oil filters & 4 oil changes worth of oil at their cost). That ended up being much cheaper for me than trying to find aftermarket equivalents.

 

If you can find a deal on (& find it) then (I believe) Castrol Power 1 Racing Synthetic 4T engine oil has the proper SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2, rating but it usually isn't that much cheaper than the BMW sold oil.

 

OR-- take you chances on not needing warranty repair on internal engine failures & use an oil that is known to meet the SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2 standards but just not currently rated as such.

 

[realshelby]

Using Shell Rotella T-6 in your BMW makes some people just cringe! But, it exceeds the BMW spec for oil standards for the Wethead engine. 5-40 viscosity, SM ( above the SL spec ) rated, JASO MA2, and synthetic ( not specifically recommended in the BMW owners manual). Around $20 per gallon, which is just about what you use for an oil change. By any measure this oil should NOT have an effect on a warranty claim. Using BMW oil, filters, and so on might make that less of an issue. Or it might not have an effect. Since I am not expecting catastrophic engine failure, I am not at all concerned. I take care of the bike, I know I am using good components to service it.

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning Terry

 

Does that Jaso DH2, MA MA2 rating fall under the specification part, or approval part,

or recommendation part? I don't see the MA2 rating up top under meets or exceeds XXX requirements.

 

Basically does it have the MA 2 rating posted on the oil jug container itself?

 

I use the Rotella both 15/40 & 5w40 in my diesel tractors & it is good oil. I wouldn't

have any issues using it in my BMW motorcycle's BUT does the actual oil jug carry the

MA 2 approval on it?

 

I have not bought the Rotella in a about a year as I buy in 55 gallon barrels but as of a

year ago none of my Rotella 5w40 has the actual MA 2 rating (it does have the diesel DH2

rating but that is not an MA rating)

 

I know that Shell claims the Rotella 5w40 met the MA standard (might even be rated for that)

but I have yet to see a real MA 2 approval rating on the oil container.

 

Maybe it is on the oil container as of late & I just haven't seen one yet.

 

In any case to protect for BMW warranty requirement is MUST have the JASO MA2 approval on

the oil container not just meets that spec vaguely worded by the producer.

Edited September 12, 2016 by dirtrider

[PadG]

BTW, this makes for interesting reading with regards to this thread: https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/press-releases/2015/03/bmw-settles-ftc-charges-its-mini-division-illegally-conditioned

[realshelby]

Morning Terry

In any case to protect for BMW warranty requirement is MUST have the JASO MA2 approval on the oil container not just meets that spec vaguely worded by the producer.

 

DR, I have never seen or heard of that requirement? I am sure you have a lot more experience with that exact situation. But, I will bet my money that in a court of law the oil manufacturer specification, be it on the container or in a not what I would call vaguely worded technical specification sheet, that the technical specification of what the oil will actually test to will prevail.

Now about the container. It to my knowledge still says "JASO MA". So, myself and at least one other interested party called Shell and asked to talk with the technical department. Like you, we were dubious about the MA2 specification. We were both told that basically Shell doesn't market the Rotella series to the motorcycle market so the containers have never been changed to reflect the MA2 spec. We SPECIFICALLY asked "does the oil meet MA2 technical specifications?" Yes, we were told it does. A while after that we found the technical data sheet posted by me earlier. I called again and inquired about any changes in the oil. I was told there was no change in the formula, they had just updated it to show MA2 specs. Clearly the technical sheet now says "JASO MA2". I don't know if the containers will ever say that.

[dirtrider]

Morning Terry

 

A LOT of modern 5w40 motor oils rated SJ or SL will easily meet MA2 specifications but are just not rated as such due to not being sold in the motorcycle market.

 

Bottom line-- if it doesn't say MA2 on the oil container then it hasn't been officially tested to meet MA2 standards. It still might easily meet those standards but they don't meet it by BMW warranty specifications.

 

It might hold up in in court that the Rotella does in fact meet MA2 standards & the court m-i-g-h-t uphold that it is good enough to satisfy BMW warranty requirements but my (educated) guess is that BMW would fight you tooth & nail claiming the oil didn't meet their specs as it isn't officially tested/rated to do so.

 

In any case, a long court battle possibility is not worth the cost or aggravation to use a non approved motor oil (again all BMW has to do is say NO to an engine warranty claim then it is up to you to take them to court & force them to do otherwise).

 

Seems cheaper to just use approved oil to begin with (but that's just my opinion)

 

BTW-- I just remembered that my neighbor borrowed 3 gallons of Rotella 5w40 from me a few weeks ago & brought me 3 gallons this last weekend to replace what he borrowed (it's out in my shop) so I just had my wife read me the label & it is approved as Jaso MA but no Jaso MA2 approval on the container so it isn't MA2 approved (at least on those 3 gallon jugs)

 

I can sell you 4 quarts of olive oil & CLAIM it meets MA2 specs, I can even post on-line in a confusing manner that it meets MA2 requirements but that doesn't make it a tested & approved MA2 oil by warranty requirements.

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning Terry

 

On another related subject & one for you & others to ponder---

 

The BMW oil specification is: SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2,

 

To me that is a debatable specification as most read that as the oil needs to be both SAE 5W-40 API SL compliant AND JASO MA2 compliant.

 

What has my attention is: the SAE 5W-40, API SL is a USA API (American Petroleum Institute) rating.

 

The JASO MA2 is a Japanese oil rating.

 

SO-- does the oil have to meet JUST either SAE 5W-40, API SL OR JUST JASO MA2,-- or both? (BMW won't directly answer this for me & evades a concise clarifying answer).

 

Bottom line here-- Is BMW specifying a US (API) rated motor oil or a Japanese JASO rated motor oil for a German motorcycle????

 

Personally I would read that it has to meet one or the other not both as there is no official SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2 specification when read together.

 

Same as synthetic motor oil as there is NO API or JASO specification that specifies or includes any type of synthetic requirement.

[Mike]

Great discussion . . . and accurate (from a lawyer's perspective) with respect to the warranty issues. I'm not an expert in warranty law, but I'd argue pretty strenuously that if the JASO MA2 spec is on on the technical data sheet, you'd be good to go, even if it's not printed on the container itself.

 

On a more practical basis, the Castrol Power 1 Racing Synthetic 4T is often available in six-packs on Amazon.com at a good price. I recently ordered some and there was, unexpectedly a 10% discount coupon that showed up on the Amazon.com website. For most of us, who don't buy in 55 gallon drums, it's a good alternative.

 

To the OP: the key to having a good warranty case for home serviced vehicles is documentation. I'd keep your item receipts (electronically is fine), as well as a log of when you did the service. If you're scanning for codes, print a copy of the report if you can, or at least capture a screen shot and preserve it.

[Green RT]

The manual (Spanish) that came with mine just says "recomienda el empleo de aceites BMW Motorrad" (BMW Motorrad Oil). An English language PDF that I have says "BMW recommends Advantec Original BMW Engine Oil".

 

Advantec oils appear to be made by Shell. From Bob's BMW:

 

BMW Motorrad’s two new engine oils, ADVANTEC ULTIMATE (this product) and ADVANTEC PRO, are jointly developed and exclusively formulated by Shell lubricants and BMW to demanding and exact specifications for top performance and long service life for BMW Motorrad high-performance engines.

 

Please Note: ADVANTEC Oils are sold in LITER bottles. 1 Liter = 1.05669 Quarts

 

Engine oil quality depends largely on its main components: the base oils. They make up approximately 75-90% of engine oil. Original BMW Engine Oils are based on the new patented PurePlus Technology™, which refines base oils from natural gas instead of crude oil. The result is crystal clear base oils that contain virtually none of the impurities found in crude oils. PurePlus Technology™ marks a breakthrough in how engine oils are formulated to provide enhanced viscosity, reduced friction and lower volatility.

 

Since 2012, BMW Motorrad has re-aligned its published recommendations globally to only two engine oil viscosities for all engine types:

• ADVANTEC ULTIMATE, SAE 5W-40 (API SN/JASO MA2) — recommended for the following 2005 & later models: K1200 RS/S/GT, K1300 S/GT, G450X, HP2 Sport, K1600 GT/GTL, S1000 RR/R/HP4, and all LIQUID-COOLED R1200 Models.

• ADVANTEC PRO, SAE 15W-50 (API SJ/JASO MA2) — recommended for all other models.*

Edited September 12, 2016 by Green RT

[dirtrider]

Morning Mike

 

The problem I have is the MA2 is listed under specifications, approvals & recommendations.

 

I don't see it listed under meets or exceeds, or under applications.

 

Can you tell from the data sheet if it is a specification, or approval, or just a recommendation?

 

I guess I don't see anywhere that the Rotella 5w40 has ever been officially tested (API or JASO) to meet or exceed MA2 standards. As a rule when an oil company spends the (great amount) of money to have their oil tested to meet a specific oil catagory spec they get it on the oil container as quickly as possible (otherwise why spend the money to have it tested?)

 

[realshelby]

Bottom line-- if it doesn't say MA2 on the oil container then it hasn't been officially tested to meet MA2 standards. It still might easily meet those standards but they don't meet it by BMW warranty specifications.

 

DR, you know you have my respect on all technical matters. But on this we simply disagree. I will take the Engineers word that I spoke to, and I will take the data from the Shell technical sheet to be factual. After all, those are not offered as suggestions, opinion, or hearsay. The Engineer specifically said the oil was tested and meets the JASO MA2 spec. Beyond that I am just a consumer.

 

I am not so cheap I would not run BMW, Castrol, or Shell "approved by BMW" oil. The simple reason I started using Shell Rotella T-6 is that it is readily available. My old Oilhead RT enjoyed a sip or two of fresh oil on some trips and I fretted that the rather unique oil that the Wethead is supposed to get is not easy to find. I now find that the Wethead has never needed ANY oil between changes, nor does the sight glass level change much between changes. But buying BMW oil is still a hassle compared to the Shell offering and Shell's engineers have confirmed to me that it meets ALL of BMW's specifications for oil in the Wethead series.

[JamesW]

Well, you folks have talked me out of a new BMW. Not worth playing the BringMoreWampum game to me. I mean the day will never come when I ever pay some genius $72 for 4 qts of motor oil. And just the idea of having to barter at time of purchase for 4 free oil changes. The new RT might be a nice machine but......

 

 

 

Edited September 12, 2016 by JamesW

[Mike]

Well, you folks have talked me out of a new BMW. Not worth playing the BringMoreWampum game to me. I mean the day will never come when I ever pay some genius $72 for 4 qts of motor oil. And just the idea of having to barter at time of purchase for 4 free oil changes. The new RT might be a nice machine but......

 

The warranty game is not exclusive to BMW. All of them want you to spend money at their dealerships, using their products.

 

Personally, I don't sweat it a lot. The basics are easy to do on your own and I'm happy to hand over the keys for the stuff that's beyond my ability (though I'm trying to expand it).

 

Notably, while I've been a BMW owner since 1999 and a participant here since before then, I haven't heard of any instances where BMW has denied warranty coverage based on the fact that an owner did his own service, properly or improperly. Maybe others have had this experience, but it's certainly not widespread or well known.

[lkraus]

FWIW, I want to point out that Shell has several oils labelled "Rotella". If you want to try Rotella, make sure you get the right one. T6 seems to be the only one that could match wethead requirements.

 

According to the current data sheets:

Rotella T Triple Protection (15w-40) and T6 (5w-40) are JASO rated MA2.

 

Rotella T1 is 30w only with no JASO rating.

 

Rotella T3 (15W-40) and T5 (10w-40) are JASO DH2 only.

 

I've seen "T Triple Protection" with the MA2 rating on the label, but T6 does not seem to be stocked locally.

 

[Rogerl]

If you are a BMW MOA member you can get one free quart of BMW oil if you buy (3) quarts. This takes the price down 25%. If the bike is under warranty I would use the BMW oil just to be safe.

 

https://www.bmwmoa.org/news/290662/BMW-Advantec-Oil---Buy-Three-Get-One-Free.htm

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Roger L

Edited September 12, 2016 by Rogerl

[dirtrider]

FWIW, I want to point out that Shell has several oils labelled "Rotella". If you want to try Rotella, make sure you get the right one. T6 seems to be the only one that could match wethead requirements.

 

According to the current data sheets:

Rotella T Triple Protection (15w-40) and T6 (5w-40) are JASO rated MA2.

 

Rotella T1 is 30w only with no JASO rating.

 

Rotella T3 (15W-40) and T5 (10w-40) are JASO DH2 only.

 

I've seen "T Triple Protection" with the MA2 rating on the label, but T6 does not seem to be stocked locally.

 

Afternoon lkraus

 

I guess I'm still missing something here as cannot find any data pointing to Rotella T6 5w40 being tested for, or tested to, meet or exceed JASO MA2 specifications. I see a somewhat vague reference from Shell Rotella that is under recommendations but not any actual JASO MA2 rating.

 

Latest "meets or exceeds" that I can find on Rotella T6 5w40 is from the label below (shows MA but no MA2)--I just can't seem to find any official MA2 approval.

 

[John in VA]

There are so many other complex systems to go wrong on a typical BMW that oil-related (much less oil-caused) engine failure seems low on the risk scale. Of course, if BMW denies, say, a handlebar switch claim because you can't prove that you used only BMW motor oil, they're even nastier than I thought (and in my experience they can be).

[realshelby]

The BMW oil specification is: SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2,

 

To me that is a debatable specification as most read that as the oil needs to be both SAE 5W-40 API SL compliant AND JASO MA2 compliant.

 

What has my attention is: the SAE 5W-40, API SL is a USA API (American Petroleum Institute) rating.

 

The JASO MA2 is a Japanese oil rating.

 

SO-- does the oil have to meet JUST either SAE 5W-40, API SL OR JUST JASO MA2,-- or both? (BMW won't directly answer this for me & evades a concise clarifying answer).

 

I don't see any room for debate on this. Oils MUST meet ALL those specifications. Nothing to do with Japanese vs US vs German. Simply put these are the accepted standards to test oil with. SAE is all about viscosity. API has to do with oils ability to control engine wear, cleaning, NOT interfere with emissions or other sensors/equipment, seal compatibility, sludge control, etc. JASO is all about motorcycles, but applies to any wet clutch component. It is a rating of friction characteristic index. Oils MUST meet certain other specs, including certain API specs, to be an JASO MA2 oil. The biggest factor in JASO is oil additives that might be added to the oil for friction modifiers. These can harm clutch plate action. They can also harm emission sensors and that is the only reason there is overlap between JASO and API specifications. So there is really 3 different specs named here and all must be met to be an approved oil.

[dirtrider]

There are so many other complex systems to go wrong on a typical BMW that oil-related (much less oil-caused) engine failure seems low on the risk scale. Of course, if BMW denies, say, a handlebar switch claim because you can't prove that you used only BMW motor oil, they're even nastier than I thought (and in my experience they can be).

 

Morning John

 

No, I seriously doubt that BMW would deny any non-engine related warranty claims but with the new BMW's having a wet clutch, a transmission that runs in the engine oil, as well as a new design engine that has gear driven cams, and an oil bathed alternator that is oil cooled, there is a LOT potential for BMW warranty concerns.

 

Just look at the BMW 800 bikes-- up until recently they have had a LOT of stator failures due to overheating (they are internal to engine & oil cooled). BMW has been pretty good about out of warranty (good will) stator replacements as long as the correct engine oil has been used & changed as required.

 

I just look at this through my local BMW dealers service manager eyes. --if you take a bike in for warranty issues (engine related) he will fight like the dickens to get you BMW warranty coverage even if you are slightly out of miles or coverage time.

 

If you have the incorrect oil in it, and he just might (probably will) ask for your oil change records & oil receipts, then he will most likely look at it & say "well it's up the BMW rep from here so plead you case to him"-- (sorry I just can't help you with this due to non BMW approved oil)

 

 

 

 

[realshelby]

My BMW owners manual ( posted on page one ) lists under "Engine Oil" the SPECIFICATION for recommended oil. Which is SAE 5w-40/API SL/ JASO MA2. It does not say oils must be certified.

 

The Shell Rotella T-6 data sheet posted in two places lists the 5w-40/API SL as well as SM/ JASO MA2 under SPECIFICATIONS, Approvals, and recommendations. Which means it would stand by its products to meet these specs. Or they wouldn't be on a data sheet.

Approvals mean an OEM has tested and approved them. Recommendations likely means the specs for the OEM are met, but not endorsed by an OEM. Specifications means it meets the specs on the data sheet. I won't argue whether it is certified, I see nothing to prove that final step has been taken.

[dirtrider]

My BMW owners manual ( posted on page one ) lists under "Engine Oil" the SPECIFICATION for recommended oil. Which is SAE 5w-40/API SL/ JASO MA2. It does not say oils must be certified.

 

The Shell Rotella T-6 data sheet posted in two places lists the 5w-40/API SL as well as SM/ JASO MA2 under SPECIFICATIONS, Approvals, and recommendations. Which means it would stand by its products to meet these specs. Or they wouldn't be on a data sheet.

Approvals mean an OEM has tested and approved them. Recommendations likely means the specs for the OEM are met, but not endorsed by an OEM. Specifications means it meets the specs on the data sheet. I won't argue whether it is certified, I see nothing to prove that final step has been taken.

 

Afternoon realshelby

 

Problem is OEM's can't certify to JASO MA2 standards.

 

I'm not saying that the Rotella isn't a good oil or that it doesn't actually meet the MA2 specs I just can't find ANY source in any of my oil data bases that show it being tested for or ACTUALLY CETIFIED as an MA2 motor oil.

 

I see where the oil company vaguely lists it under a non binding recommendation (basically they think it meets MA2 specs (& it very well might)

 

I just don't see any hard (independently tested) data that shows it has an official MA2 certification.

 

To me --once I pass it through my common sense filter-- IF, Rotella spent all the time & great amount of money to have their T6 5w40 independently tested & certified as a JASO MA2 oil then why in the world would they not put that on their oil container label (what good spending all that money on certification if they don't capitalize on it & use it)

 

Or put another way-- find another oil (any oil) that has a REAL MA2 certification that doesn't have it listed on the container label (I seriously doubt that you will)

[Sailorlite]

Who is it that actually does the oil certification? Could we ask the certifier directly what oils they've officially certified as MA2?

[realshelby]

DR, I more or less agree with your line of reasoning. I would NOT bet there is an official certification.

 

Like I was told by the Engineer in the technical department ( I did ask was he an Engineer! ), yes the oil meets JASO MA2 and that is why it is on the data sheet. In his words, more or less, he said this is marketed as a diesel oil and the JASO certification isn't a priority. I can live with that.

 

In my opinion, based on talking to a qualified representative, the Shell Rotella T-6 does meet ALL SPECIFICATIONS set forth in my BMW owners manual. If it came to a warranty/legal claim, I feel like they would back up their claims of JASO MA2 standards.

[realshelby]

Who is it that actually does the oil certification? Could we ask the certifier directly what oils they've officially certified as MA2?

 

Japan Lubrication Oil Society is responsible for JASO certification. This is off their website, I don't know if it is current. But I don't see any BMW branded oil on it....

 

JASO

[dirtrider]

DR, I more or less agree with your line of reasoning. I would NOT bet there is an official certification.

 

Like I was told by the Engineer in the technical department ( I did ask was he an Engineer! ), yes the oil meets JASO MA2 and that is why it is on the data sheet. In his words, more or less, he said this is marketed as a diesel oil and the JASO certification isn't a priority. I can live with that.

 

In my opinion, based on talking to a qualified representative, the Shell Rotella T-6 does meet ALL SPECIFICATIONS set forth in my BMW owners manual. If it came to a warranty/legal claim, I feel like they would back up their claims of JASO MA2 standards.

 

Afternoon Terry

 

One of the catch 22 deals for Rotella is: their major markets are diesel truck fleets, diesel farm equipment, as well as farm & off-road equipment.

 

 

If they (Rotella) tells me that their T6 5w40 is JASO MA2 certified that tells me that it is not the oil that I really want for maximum engine protection in heavy duty diesel usage.

 

 

I have no doubt that the T6 5w40 won't hurt the newer BMW's that specify 5w40, my only concern would be will BMW consider the Rotella T6 5w40 a warranty breach? (if Rotella doesn't spell out "meets or exceeds MA2" or put "MA2" on the container then I'm not buying their rain dance under specifications and suggestions as those categories are not any type of oil certification or rating category)

 

There is plenty of info out there, & even in this thread alone, to allow new BMW owners to make a decision about Rotella T6 5w40 that they can live with & defend in court if necessary. (some don't like to chance things & others kind of trust to luck)

 

Me personally, I just take the easy road & buy a real JASO MA2 rated oil that is certified to meet or exceed the MA2 by someone other than the spin doctors of the selling oil company.

[dirtrider]

Who is it that actually does the oil certification? Could we ask the certifier directly what oils they've officially certified as MA2?

 

If you search around there are a number of lists on the internet that show current MA2 certified engine oil & most even break it down by viscosity categories.

 

Problem is, most are not up to date so if an oil company has their oil tested & certified to meet MA2 it might not be on the list yet.

 

Even then you might end up with an oil that is not really certified MA2 but thought to be MA2 by the masses due to clever oil company advertising hype.

 

Bottom line-- if MA2 is shown on the oil container & the company has not been sued over it recently then it probably is the real deal as far as MA2 rating goes.

 

An oil company spends a LOT of money to get MA2 tested/certified so it will on the container label before the ink is even dry on the certification documents.

[lkraus]

My aim was to point out that not all Rotella oils are equal, and anyone that chooses to use Rotella in a Wethead should be looking specifically for T6, the only 5W-40 that might be suitable. Wetheads interest me as I may own one some day; Rotella T (discontinued) is the oil in my diesel tractor, though I find T6 will be too light for my Kubota.

 

I'm not sure what counts as "official". The corporate Shell website (www.shell.com) does not let me search directly for their technical data sheets, but it does have a painfully-difficult-to-use oil selection tool. Choosing light truck, and then Dodge Sprinter 2500 (D/DT)(2006), it recommends Rotella T6 and has this link to download the technical specs. This is the same sheet I linked to above from an online dealer. Dated 2013, that sheet claims JASO MA2. Maybe Shell has been making false claims for three years, but I think this is at least as credible as the 2013 sales brochure, though I found both of them on the internet...

 

 

Out of curiosity, I did some more searching, trying to understand the differences between MA and MA2. Several sources had near identical info, but like SAE standards, the definitive source (Japanese Automotive Standards Organization) requires paid subscriptions & I'm not that interested. I did find that the ratings are defined by the standard JASO T 903:2006, which I found at the Japan Lubricating Oil Society(JALOS) . Turns out that MA1 and MA2 are subsets of the overall MA spec, classifying oil according to three different friction properties, each of which has a specific range. Oil with some MA1 properties and some MA2 properties is classed simply as MA. A MA2 oil is MA oil with the highest friction indexes. I did not find JASO T 904:2006, which I think is the testing procedure for determining the friction indexes.

Edited September 12, 2016 by lkraus

[JR356]

I have noticed and others have commented on seeing the T6 at WM with the MA2 rating on the quart bottle,but only MA on the gallon bottle.This despite being identically labeled oil in all other respects.

 

JR356

[dirtrider]

Afternoon lkraus

 

 

Unfortunately you & I read those specs differently. I don't see MEETS or EXCEEDS MA2 in any of their documentation. I also don't see MA2 on the container (if it isn't on the container then WHY NOT as that would be the main reason for them to have it tested/certified).

 

All I see is a list of things under specifications & suggestions -- so it is a real certified specification, or their own (in house) testing to be equivalent to MA2, or is it just a suggestion by them that it is MA2?

 

Like I said above, if you believe that BMW warranty department will buy their (Rotella's) clever advertising placement as fact as far as warranty requirement then by all means use that oil.

 

For me personally if I don't see the MEETS or EXCEEDS MA2 in their documentation of on the container then I'm not buying Rotella's SUGGESTION that it is MA2.

[dirtrider]

I have noticed and others have commented on seeing the T6 at WM with the MA2 rating on the quart bottle,but only MA on the gallon bottle.This despite being identically labeled oil in all other respects.

 

 

Afternoon JR356

 

Now there's a possibility. If that is the case then there should be no issues using T6 5w40 in the new BMW's.

 

It does say MA on the label so just be sure that people are not confusing MA with MA2.

 

 

 

[lkraus]

Who is it that actually does the oil certification? Could we ask the certifier directly what oils they've officially certified as MA2?

 

Japan Lubrication Oil Society is responsible for JASO certification. This is off their website, I don't know if it is current. But I don't see any BMW branded oil on it....

 

JASO

 

The top of that list is dated September, 2016. As you said, BMW's currently recommended oil, Advantec Ultimate (by Shell), is conspicuously absent, as are all Rotella variations.

[92Merc]

The top of that list is dated September, 2016. As you said, BMW's currently recommended oil, Advantec Ultimate (by Shell), is conspicuously absent, as are all Rotella variations.

 

I don't see Liquid Moly 5-40 on that list either. Or am I blind?

[Green RT]

Well, you folks have talked me out of a new BMW. Not worth playing the BringMoreWampum game to me. I mean the day will never come when I ever pay some genius $72 for 4 qts of motor oil. And just the idea of having to barter at time of purchase for 4 free oil changes. The new RT might be a nice machine but......

 

 

 

If you don't want to ride BMWs for whatever reason, that is obviously your privilege. However, avoiding BMW because the price of the recommended oil is too high, is a little like choosing an airplane carrier based on the brand of peanuts they give for an in-flight snack. There is no absolute requirement for a particular brand, just a spec (SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2).

 

Furthermore, for most owners the warranty period is a pretty small part of the life of the bike. Out of warranty, no one is going to second guess your choice of oil.

[JamesW]

I really didn't mean to start an oil thread. I was just pointing out BMW specified oil requirements on their new bikes as an example of what I think is a greedy manufacturer of motorcycles. It would irritate me greatly to have to spend what I view as exorbitant costs for simple routine maintenance. I have considered going to just one motorcycle (new R1200RT) but because of BMW's well known not so good reliability record and what I read as very high costs to maintain I'm going to take a pass.

 

Now, D.R. makes a very good and I think valid point when he mentions the new engine design with the wet clutch with transmission gears running in motor oil and even an immersed alternator as most likely the reason for the new stringent lubrication requirements. So the bottom line looks to be that if you want to play you better be ready to pay.

 

I think I'll wait until used wetheads that are off warranty become available. Until then I'll just have to be happy with my low mileage FJR and my pristine R1100RSL also low miles.

 

Lifes rough.

[dirtrider]

Morning JamesW

 

BMW does seem to be playing oil spec games as of late. If a 5w40 will work then so should 5w50.

 

I know on the later BMW 800 that BMW speced a motor oil that is very difficult to match up with non BMW supplied oil (no real reason for that other than using the recommended oil spec to funnel oil buyers to their own supplied oil without actually violating the law. Also strange how the required oil spec changed when BMW switched OEM oil suppliers.

 

But to defend BMW (somewhat)-- it is a difficult task to spec a motor oil for a modern wet clutch, catalytic equipped motorcycle with an internal gear box.

 

They need to specify an MA oil to protect the wet clutch, but also spec an MA2 oil to protect the cat, but still try to have enough anti-wear/anti-scuff additives to protect the trans gears. (very difficult specification to meet as they are conflicting)

 

If it wasn't for future warranty protection concerns (or on an out of warranty BMW) then personally I would drop the MA2 spec oil & just use a common MA spec oil. That would give up some cat protection for a little better internal wear protection but still protect the wet clutch.

 

 

[Mike]

Morning Mike

 

The problem I have is the MA2 is listed under specifications, approvals & recommendations.

 

I don't see it listed under meets or exceeds, or under applications.

 

Can you tell from the data sheet if it is a specification, or approval, or just a recommendation?

 

I guess I don't see anywhere that the Rotella 5w40 has ever been officially tested (API or JASO) to meet or exceed MA2 standards. As a rule when an oil company spends the (great amount) of money to have their oil tested to meet a specific oil catagory spec they get it on the oil container as quickly as possible (otherwise why spend the money to have it tested?)

 

I see what you're saying. I poked around a bit on the web and found a couple instances where motorcyclists had posed this question to Shell. Shell's zresponses indicated that the oil had been tested and found to comply with the JASO MA2 standard, but did not claim that it was JASO-certified. I then checked the JASO list of certified oils and did not see it listed.

 

I think I'd come down on the same side of the debate as you have. While under warranty, it would be safer (from the perspective of retaining your warranty rights) to stick with a certified oil.

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning Mike

 

Shell just might be riding the fence on this issue as they don't want to outright tell their main audience (the diesel guys) that their oil (T6 5w40) is certified as an MA2 as MA2 specification means less of the good anti-wear additives that can (possibly) harm the cat. (they probably don't want MA2 to be seen on the label)

 

On the other side if they can pick up some motorcycle riders by saying that they meet MA2 requirements under suggestions & specifications then that is small win for them, marketing wise.

 

Personally I would rather use an MA (only) rated oil & let the cat worry about itself but that darn BMW warranty thing is telling me to use an MA2 certified for peace-of-mind (at least until the warranty ends)

 

One good rule of thumb (once out of warranty) is to let Ducati be your guide-- Ducati tends to guide more towards better engine protection than towards emission system protection so usually specs (or allows) better engine/transmission protection oil choices. (just make sure that you are using a wet clutch Ducati for the guide)

Edited September 13, 2016 by dirtrider

[JamesW]

Hmmmmm:S ...maybe I should use BMW oil in my wet clutch FJR? The owners manual just says to use 10-40 or 20-50 SL rated or better oil depending on operating temperature. But then we have to consider BMW and their cut above engineering which right there means use magical super superior motor oil no doubt.

 

I've been riding BMW bikes since I bought my first one new in '76, a '77 R75/7, so I'm not exactly new to the brand but that was then.

[realshelby]

JamesW, no worries. Motorcycle engines that operate with the exact components have been around for years. Crankcase, gearbox, wet clutch, overhead cams, catalytic converters are not new to other motorcycle makes. They specify JASO oils or just tell you to avoid Energy Conserving designation also. The only thing about the new BMW recommended oil is the 5w-40 viscosity ( SAE ) requirement. That is a less common oil than a 10-40.

The 10-40 or 20-50 oil you say Yamaha specs usually won't have the additives that the JASO rating is concerned with. Energy Conserving oils are where you tend to find those, and that usually means 5-30, 5-20, etc.

BMW oil wouldn't matter, that is all just a Corporation trying to squeeze another dollar out of you.

[dirtrider]

Hmmmmm:S ...maybe I should use BMW oil in my wet clutch FJR? The owners manual just says to use 10-40 or 20-50 SL rated or better oil depending on operating temperature. But then we have to consider BMW and their cut above engineering which right there means use magical super superior motor oil no doubt.

 

I've been riding BMW bikes since I bought my first one new in '76, a '77 R75/7, so I'm not exactly new to the brand but that was then.

 

Afternoon James

 

For all I know BMW might be saying the same thing.

 

The BMW 1200 W/C oil spec is: SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2,

 

I have yet to get BMW or my BMW dealer to fully clarify if the above oil spec is saying that you can use either a 5w40 API SL oil-- OR to use a JASO MA2 oil-- OR if it has to meet BOTH the US API spec AND the Japanese JASO spec. (obviously BMW doesn't want it's riders to understand it either or they would have written the requirement differently)

 

The JASO MA2 spec basically covers the API SL so AFAIK all JASO MA2 will meet API SL specs so why even give a separate API SL requirement if it has to meet both?

 

That is unless BMW wrote it to be confusing enough to have it look like only BMW branded oil will meet those specs.

[Dave_in_TX]

Using Shell Rotella T-6 in your BMW makes some people just cringe! But, it exceeds the BMW spec for oil standards for the Wethead engine. 5-40 viscosity, SM ( above the SL spec ) rated, JASO MA2, and synthetic ( not specifically recommended in the BMW owners manual). Around $20 per gallon, which is just about what you use for an oil change. By any measure this oil should NOT have an effect on a warranty claim. Using BMW oil, filters, and so on might make that less of an issue. Or it might not have an effect. Since I am not expecting catastrophic engine failure, I am not at all concerned. I take care of the bike, I know I am using good components to service it.

 

 

 

The gray area her is that Shell says Rotella meets the MA2 spec but it isn't actually certified as meeting MA2.

[AlanS.]

Morning JamesW

 

But to defend BMW (somewhat)-- it is a difficult task to spec a motor oil for a modern wet clutch, catalytic equipped motorcycle with an internal gear box.

 

The Japanese bikes have had these items for years.

[dirtrider]

Morning JamesW

 

But to defend BMW (somewhat)-- it is a difficult task to spec a motor oil for a modern wet clutch, catalytic equipped motorcycle with an internal gear box.

 

The Japanese bikes have had these items for years.

 

Morning AlanS

 

This is true BUT they (as well as BMW) didn't need to meet or maintain the much stricter Euro 4 emission standards until very recently.

[JamesW]

Not to drag on an oil thread but in the 2016 FJR Owners Manual Yamaha recommends using API service SG or higher and JASO Standard MA. In my 2010 owners manual SL rating or higher is the recommendation. Also, there is a warning NOT to use diesel motor oil with the specification "CD" in order to "prevent clutch slippage" in the 2016 manual. Not sure all things are equal in the Yamaha/BMW world but if I had just shelled out 23K for the pride of the Bavarian Motor Works machine I would probably stay clear of oils intended for use in diesel engines and just bite the old bullet and go for the BMW motor oil. Not to say I wouldn't grit my teeth every time, but.....

 

True, the CD spec is obsolete but modern diesel oils still meet or exceed the CD spec so why take a chance?

 

Reason I refer to the FJR is obviously because I own one and am familiar with it and also because the FJR is of the sport touring genre similar to BMW motorcycles in that regard with a wet clutch.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2016 by JamesW

[dirtrider]

Afternoon James

 

Diesel motor oil with a CD rating has been obsolete for many years now (they must have dug hard & deep to find that rating)

 

But they do have a point as CD rated motor oil has a LOT (like real lot) of anti wear additives in it (that is back from the high sulfur fuel days).

 

I would imagine it would also kill a cat. pretty quickly if you have a bike that even burns a small amount of oil.