owner maintenance

[JamesW]

Hi D.R., As I said in my post CD is obsolete but the new diesel oils meet and in fact exceed the old CD specification so again I would not run modern diesel oil in my new BMW or any gas powered vehicle for that matter. That said I still think BMW is kind of taking advantage of the situation for corporate profits but I guess that's how the game is played especially these days.

Edited September 14, 2016 by JamesW

[JustKrusen]

Afternoon James

 

Diesel motor oil with a CD rating has been obsolete for many years now (they must have dug hard & deep to find that rating)

 

But they do have a point as CD rated motor oil has a LOT (like real lot) of anti wear additives in it (that is back from the high sulfur fuel days).

 

I would imagine it would also kill a cat. pretty quickly if you have a bike that even burns a small amount of oil.

 

Shell Rotella oils have been used in the Goldwing community for many years. Never once was there a clutch or cat problem that I heard about. I ran it in my 1800 for 175,000 miles and it was still going strong when I sold it. Both the 5w-40 synthetic and the 15w-40 dino are used everyday by GoldWing owners. I preferred the 15w-40 as the shifting always seemed smoother.

 

I'm not really recommending Rotella but it works in a lot of bikes with wet clutches & cats. Also used it in my '16 FJR for a while.

 

Currently I am using BMW's Advantec oil in my RT.

 

[dirtrider]

Evening James

 

By API standard they do need to exceed the previous but that is mainly in proclamation only & for mainly automotive usage.

 

Just because they meet certain test standards doesn't mean they are appropriate for all applications.

 

Just try to use a modern SL or SM rated motor oil in an old flat tappet strong valve spring car engine then run that vehicle at high RPM's (it might be rated backwards compatible but sure isn't backwards useful)

 

There are lots of instances on the motorcycle side that the new doesn't exceed the old & in fact is prohibited to use.

 

BMW themselves put out a service bulletin back in the 1100/1150 era that bluntly stated that " API classification SF, SG or SH; CD or CE are to be used, SJ oil is not to be used". I guess BMW didn't think it was THAT backwards compatible. (SJ kind of started the cat protection era & weeing out of the good Phosphorus anti-wear additives)

 

I seriously doubt that you could find it (anywhere) but an SG, SH, SL oil would be OK but SG & SH are not tested for anymore as they are so long obsolete & SL has come out well after the SG, SH testing classification ended so I don't see how any oil could be labeled that way.

[dirtrider]

Evening Ed

 

The thing with cats is you really have no way of knowing if they are poisoned from incorrect oil usage.

 

Riders don't care if a cat is poisoned & even state inspections are so lax that they won't catch one unless really damaged.

 

The people that DO care are the OEM manufactures as they have to warrant the cat for emission performance for many years. (big fine & lots of expensive recalls if they get caught with poor performing cats).

 

Even then, most oil (even high ZDDP containing oil) won't poison a cat unless the bike is an oil user.

 

Rotella 5w40 is probably not going to hurt a cat as it at least has an MA rating (plus Shell claims it meets MA2 cat protection standards).

 

The 15w40 probably not so good for cats but I doubt many riders care.

 

 

Added: I don't think anybody in this thread (including me) has badmouthed the Rotella oil, or found reasons or suggestions that it would harm the engine or cat.

 

Our main theme here is: Will BMW accept that it (Rotella T-6 5w40) meets the BMW MA2 requirement spelled out in their riders manual & warranty a stator, engine internals, or trans parts, or clutch parts in case of failure or poor performance?

 

Edited September 14, 2016 by dirtrider

[realshelby]

Here is a good explanation of what JASO actually is!

 

JASO Oil specification

[dirtrider]

Here is a good explanation of what JASO actually is!

 

JASO Oil specification

 

Evening realshelby

 

Actually it's not that good as it is doesn't contain the cat protection side of the MA, MA1, MA2 ratings.

[lkraus]

I posted the 2006 version of the JASO specs defining the Mx ratings earlier. I've since found there was a 2011 revision, available here: JASO T 903:2011.

 

The way I read Sections 2 and 3.2, it appears that the primary purpose of the Mx rating is to classify oil on the basis of friction indices (for wet clutches). From the very bottom of page 4, I see that to obtain a Mx rating, the oils must first meet other quality requirements, which include API SL, SM, SN or other ratings shown in Table 3.

 

Table 4 shows allowable levels of ash and phosphorus, which I presume are for catalyst protection. It also shows the criteria for shear stability, shear viscosity and foaming tendency, important when engine oil is shared with the transmission. Values in this table seem to be the same for all the Mx ratings.

 

Table 2 defines the friction properties that narrow the classification to MA, MA1, MA2 or MB. MA2 has the highest friction indexes in all three categories, MB the least.

 

Section 4 is interesting because it says lube oil suppliers should go through certain formalities to use the standard, that JASO maintains records of the suppliers tests, that it holds those test results in secrecy, but does no testing itself. My take is that their "certified list" simply acknowledges that the oil company chose to give them copies of test results, but there is no requirement to do so before "utilizing" the standard to describe oil characteristics. All of which could explain why Rotella and Advantec oils do not appear on the list. Why would an oil company bother? It's just more paperwork.

Edited September 15, 2016 by lkraus

[dirtrider]

 

Morning___

 

We are kind of getting off track on this thread as it was started as a maintenance vs 1200RT W/C requirements.

 

 

 

ADVANTEC Ultimate oil $16.00 -$18.00 liter (BMW suggested) so there should be no issues on meeting warranty requirements.

 

BMW Motorrad USA recently announced that all current BMW MOA members are eligible to receive a free liter of BMW Motorrad Advantec engine oil.

MOA members may present their valid membership card at any participating BMW Motorrad dealer for a free liter of Advantec Ultimate or Pro when buying at least three liters and one BMW oil filter over the parts counter or with a 600 mile break-in service, scheduled maintenance service or between scheduled service appointments.

Advantec Pro 15W-50 and Ultimate 5W-40 engine oils were specifically developed for BMW Motorrad high-performance engines and use unique formulas to guarantee long-term performance.

Members are limited to one free liter of Advantec per individual visit, per repair order or per parts invoice. The offer is valid now through March 31, 2017.__________The one problem that I have heard on the above is the "any participating BMW Motorrad dealer part" as each dealer seems to put their own spin on the deal, & some won't even honor it, or some demand they do the oil change. (need to check with YOUR dealer on this offer)

 

 

Castrol Power 1 Racing Synthetic 4T engine oil has the proper SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2 rating $52.28 on Amazon for 6 quarts ($8.71 quart) free shipping with Amazon Prime. This oil does appear to have an authentic MA2 rating as it is printed right on the oil container.

 

 

Castrol Power 1 Racing Synthetic 4T engine oil has the proper SAE 5W-40, API SL / JASO MA2 $11.50 quart at Motorcycle Super Store + shipping.

 

 

 

Rotella T6 5w40 shows $26.98 per gallon at Wallmart & $21.36 per gallon at Home Depot___ (question on this is)-- Does it meet BMW JASO MA2 specifications & warranty requirements? (will BMW accept it as meeting THEIR BMW oil requirements?) _____This oil seems the cheapest, the only question is does it meet BMW's MA2 warranty requirements (each rider will have to determine this for themselves) as we have been beating it to death for a few days now & still no solid binding answer. OR, just check with your BMW dealer's service department to see if they will accept it as meeting the BMW 1200RT W/C motor oil requirements.

 

I'm sure there are some other 5w40 API SL/MA2 oil's that fit BMW requirements but there doesn't seem to be many that are easy to find locally.

 

Maybe we should form a list & keep it running (plus keep it current) at the top of the wethead forum as riders find reasonably priced 5w40 API SL/MA2 oils to add to the list.

[Sailorlite]

Just checked the current Amazon price for the Castrol 5w-40: $52.28 less a 20% DISCOUNT COUPON = $41.80 for 6 qts.

[dirtrider]

 

Morning ____

 

JR 356 pointed this out but it was unconfirmed.

 

It is now confirmed as I looked at a quart bottle of Roetlla T-6 5w40 this morning. The quart container of Rotella T-6 5w40 that I looked at did in fact have both the MA & the MA-2 rating on the bottle (so it looks like it does conform to BMW's oil requirement specs)

[LIRider]

It is now confirmed as I looked at a quart bottle of Roetlla T-6 5w40 this morning. The quart container of Rotella T-6 5w40 that I looked at did in fact have both the MA & the MA-2 rating on the bottle (so it looks like it does conform to BMW's oil requirement specs)

Awesome! I wonder if/when they'll get around to updating the gallon jugs. I'll have to check the stock at Walmart when I'm next in the store.

Edited September 22, 2016 by LIRider

[realshelby]

If it is on the quart bottles that is good. If there was ever a warranty claim, just provide a quart bottle for inspection. The gallon containers that I last bought did not have it, but I have the spec sheet from Shell that shows JASO MA2 that I was directed to by their engineer. Under $21 at my local Walmart for a gallon!

[Mike]

ADMIN NOTE:

 

I had locked this a couple days ago since we got off the original topic. However, DirtRider confacted me to let me know that he had uncovered some additional information regarding the Rotella product. In the interest of making sure that information was shared, I've unlocked it again.

 

I'll lock it up again as soon as folks are able to post any thoughts/concerns/questions regarding this new information.

[LIRider]

Just got back from Walmart and they have indeed updated the gallon containers of Shell Rotella T6 to include the MA2 cert. Here's a picture I took of the back of the container:

 

[dirtrider]

Just got back from Walmart and they have indeed updated the gallon containers of Shell Rotella T6 to include the MA2 cert. Here's a picture I took of the back of the container:

 

 

Morning LIRider

 

Yes indeed, but now we enter another problem area as it appears that they have dropped the required API SL rating & it now has a new API SM rating.

 

While motor oil is supposed to be backwards compatible-- in the past BMW hasn't always seen it that way for BMW motorcycle usage.

 

Usage (engine protection) wise it shouldn't be an issue but warranty wise it would still pay to check with your dealer (or BMW customer support) to make darn sure that API SM rated oil is acceptable to provide continued warranty coverage.

 

 

[LIRider]

Yes but the technical data sheet I have (can post if it hasn't already been posted here) states:

 

· API: SM, SL, SJ, SH

 

I think they simply left out the earlier spec items due to space limitations on the label. Since BMW cannot force you to use their oil and you've made a good faith effort to determine you are using an oil that meets the spec they put forth for the motor, I can't see them voiding a warranty for using this.

Edited September 24, 2016 by LIRider

[John in VA]

BMW could claim that the T6 bottle label is missing a little motorcycle icon up top under "SUITABLE FOR:"

 

[dirtrider]

Yes but the technical data sheet I have (can post if

it hasn't already been posted here) states:

 

· API: SM, SL, SJ, SH

I think they simply left out the earlier spec items due to space limitations on the label.

Since BMW cannot force you to use their oil and you've made a good faith effort to determine

you are using an oil that meets the spec they put forth for the motor, I can't see them voiding

a warranty for using this.

 

Morning LIRider

 

But that was the old data (pre MA2 on the container)-- the new container with the MA2 showing

doesn't have the API SL showing on the container.

 

Maybe it is SL/SM rated & maybe it is only SM rated (or maybe they don't test under API SL a

ny longer). The good news is, this is a free country so a rider can basically use any oil they

choose (even if doesn't have BMW approval with what's shown on the container)

 

I guess then if they have engine, trans, or clutch issues they can argue that out with BMW

in court, or hash it out with the BMW rep, or just trust to luck & BMW's good will.

 

I'm not giving legal advice or telling riders what BMW will do-- just suggesting that they

check with their BMW dealer or BMW directly if they want assurance that BMW will honor their

powertrain warranty if using the Rotella API SM/ MA2 oil.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2016 by dirtrider

[LIRider]

No, the TDS shows the MA2 rating as well. The label was missing that until very recently. I can post the TDS if you like?

[dirtrider]

No, the TDS shows the MA2 rating as well. The label was missing that until very recently. I can post the TDS if you like?

 

Morning LIRider

 

Unless this is new (recent) TDS then we are right back to, does that older sheet ABSOLUTELY say meets MA2 or is it posted under suggestions? If a late TDS then does it say both meets SL & MA2?

 

We are also back to does BMW view it as meeting their specs of--API SL/ MA2 with no moly additives?)

 

If you think it meets BMW API SL/MA2_ no-moly additive specs then by all means use it, if a rider is unsure of Rotella T6 5w40 meeting BMW oil requirements specs then they really should check with BMW before using.

 

 

 

[LIRider]

The TDS dates to April 2013. Here's the first page ...

[dirtrider]

The TDS dates to April 2013. Here's the first page ...

 

Afternoon LIRider

 

That's what I thought, that info is 3 years old now.

[AZRTRDR]

Is this stuff made with a true class 3 or 4 base synthetic ?

[dirtrider]

Is this stuff made with a true class 3 or 4 base synthetic ?

 

Afternoon AZRTRDR

 

You will probably have to call the shell oil tec line (but my guess is they will not outright tell you)

 

At Rotella's price point I seriously doubt it is a PAO or group IV stock. More than likely a hydrocracked Group III.

 

[realshelby]

Here is an oil analysis for Shell Rotella T-6. I changed it a bit early due to a trip I just made. This oil had a LOT of high speed miles ( think 5-6,000 rpm in 6th gear ), some twisties where the rev limiter action was confirmed, as well as some easy cruising. Nothing here tells me that this oil would keep this powertrain from lasting a very long time. It shifts as good as the BMW oil, and by now I am used to the transmission and have no issues worth complaining about.

 

Blackstone Labs

[StuGotz]

Shame on you guys. You have morphed this into an oil thread.

 

 

MB>

[Alfred02]

It can't be MA "and MA2 compatible.

It's either one or the other.

[lkraus]

It can't be MA "and MA2 compatible.

It's either one or the other.

 

Actually, MA2 is a subset of the MA spec. Any MA1 or MA2 oil is necessarily an MA oil. The MA spec groups oils by their

friction characteristics, with MA2 being at the high end of the friction range.

 

Details here:http://www.jalos.or.jp/onfile/pdf/4T_EV1605.pdf

Edited November 25, 2016 by lkraus

[RTinNC]

My simple solution is just use THIS !!

 

 

Amazon .... $51 for 6 qts. and shipped free!

 

 

[reg26]

Thats what I've been using also. Order from Amazon ans have it two days later :-)

[gordiet]

Like wise

[Alfred02]

Actually, MA2 is a subset of the MA spec. Any MA1 or MA2 oil is necessarily an MA oil. The MA spec groups oils by their

friction characteristics, with MA2 being at the high end of the friction range.

 

 

No disagreement from me.

You actually made my point that I was making. MA/MA2 are different friction ranges. They do overlap but the bottom end of the ranges are not the same.

MA on DFI is: 1.35

MA2 on DFI is: 1.50

 

But both appear to be the same in the top range.

Sorry can't display the proper "equal or less" signs as shown in the PDF.

 

I could be wrong, but I just spend a bit of time to find a suitable synthetic oil for my wife's bike that actually specified "MA".