O2 Sensor - Oxygen Sensor - Lambda Sensor

[trent]

I'm experiencing a fueling problem with my 2011 R1200GS.

 

Symptoms are, after getting the engine up to temp, throttle response can be abrupt, sputtering with a sudden loss of power. It does not always occur, but seems to occur after riding at speed on the highway, and then when I move to surface streets having to stop and go, I notice the problem when having to take off from a stop light.

 

I had this problem before, and end up taking it to the dealer at least three times, and it was not until they (cleaned) the o2 sensor, things when back to okay. Well 9K miles later and its back.

 

GS911 with no throttle:

It shows it oscillating normally (200-800mV)

 

 

GS911 with throttle of 2000 (I went up to 4000 as well) and the o2 sensor flat lines, reading is actually like 19mV

 

I ordered a new sensor, replace it, but same results.

 

I swapped the sensors, same result on the same side. Flatline when any throttle is applied.

 

So anyone got a clue?

 

FYI saved a bundle on the o2 sensor from EME

[mneblett]

Paging Roger ...

 

In the meantime, have you checked for a broken wire in the line between the no. 1 O2 sensor's connector and the computer, or a poor pin connection within the bike side of the sensor connector? I'm thinking maybe something that is sensitive to vibration at the different rpms?

 

Looks like the no. 1 sensor stops sending a signal, at which time the computer thinks things are too lean and starts adding fuel to compensate (note the no. 2 O2 sensor going rich most of the time).

 

Of course, it may be as simple a Motronic issue -- as simple as a corroded terminal in the connector, to as simple (and expensive) as a bad connection within the Motronic unit itself that interrupts the no. 1 O2 sensor signal coming in from the outside so the microprocessor never sees the input.

 

Thats' a start, at least with the provided info -- I'm sure Roger and D.R. will have more thought-out ideas.

[dirtrider]

Evening Trent

 

 

If the sensor is outputting OK at idle then the o2 wiring & connectors are probably OK

(at least it looks that way at first glance).

 

 

Might be a stick coil going out causing a poor ignition & un-burnt fuel in the exhaust,

or a fuel injector acting up, or ?????

 

You might try disconnecting BOTH side o2 sensors then riding the bike, if it still runs

bad then your problem probably isn't the o2 but something

else causing the o2 to report improper fueling or improper burn.

 

There were some problems with bad knock sensors but it seems unlikely that a knock sensor

would cause that o2 output reading (but a malfunctioning knock sensor can cause it to run

like you are experiencing)

 

If you can you might swap fuel injectors side to side to see if the problem swaps sides, same

with swapping stick coils side to side (lowers are not the exact same side to side but you can

probably swap them for a quick test).

 

It probably wouldn't hurt to do a compression test or a leak down test just to eliminate basic

engine issues.

 

 

[trent]

Thanks, I'll try swapping the coils.

 

If it was compression, would that not be constant?

 

My problem seems sporadic and intermittent?

[dirtrider]

Thanks, I'll try swapping the coils.

 

If it was compression, would that not be constant?

 

My problem seems sporadic and intermittent?

 

Evening Trent

 

Yes, you would think pretty consistent but sometimes it doesn't take much valve leakage to drive a computer controlled fueling system crazy.

 

IF (big if here) your o2 is working OK & just reporting some flaky fueling /combustion then I would put an upper stick coil at top of list. Lower coils phase shift as the RPM's increase so at higher RPM's it's mostly uppers that provide the ignition source. Lowers will usually run it OK at idle though.

 

I still wouldn't rule out o2 function but with a new o2 & it working at idle (not perfect but showing response) there is some doubt in my mind that that the o2 is the root cause of the problem.

[trent]

Okay, still no change. Basically any throttle I give it, right side o2 goes from oscillating to flat, with minimal voltage, around 20mV.

 

Here is what I've tried.

1. Battery has good voltage. +12V before start, +10.5v during start, +14v and while running. Also disconnect the 2 leads I had directly on it.

2. O2 Sensor is good. I know this because this is what I initially suspected was the problem and bought a new one, but that didn't resolve the issue but just to be sure, so I swapped the left for the right with no better results.

3. Upper coils are good, I tested by swapping.

4. Upper spark plug is good, I swapped it for a known working one.

5. Lower coil is good, (WARNING... LEAVING ALL SPARK PLUGS IN) I took the spark plug I had left over from replacing the upper one, connected it to the lower coil, and made contact with the engine, and saw a nice blue spark with a good jump.

6. Lower spark plug is good. I replace the lower plug with the one I just saw spark.

7. Disconnected both o2 sensor, and the bike is rough, and almost wants to die as I ease the throttle up to 2K RPMS. This system seems to be consistently present with or without the O2 Sensors.

 

Flipping the injectors is beyond my skill level, but thats my guess. My theory is that the O2 is reading lean because little fuel is being injected. But I would rate my ability to just above someone that knows how to bolt things on and off.

 

One last thing I want to try, its to late tonight, and I dont know why I didn't think of this earlier, is to reset the idle actuators with the GS911. I have little hope that will do much, but I am out of ideas.

[trent]

Any chance valve alignment would cause this issue?

I checked the clearance about 3K ago, and I noted that the right top exhaust was at the top of the boundary, which I believe to be .40mm

 

When I took those readings (3K ago) this is what they look like.

 

Left Top Exhaust .35mm. Perfect; Valid range is .30-.40mm

Left Bottom Exhaust: .35mm Perfect

Left Top Intake .15mm. Good; Valid range is .13-.23mm

Left Bottom Intake .22mm. Boundary but within spec;

 

Right Top Exhaust .40mm. Max Boundary, but within spec;

Right Bottom Exhaust: .35mm Perfect

Right Top Intake .18mm. Perfect; Valid range is .13-.23mm

Right Bottom Intake .17mm. Near Perfect

 

[dirtrider]

Any chance valve alignment would cause this issue?

 

 

Morning trent

 

Only IF one or more of the valves is WAY/WAY off or leaking.

 

Can post up a GS 911 data trap of your other engine sensors & functions? Be very helpful for us to compare other sensor data to what the o2 sensor is showing.

[trent]

Hi D.R. Thanks for working through this with me.

 

I'll work on getting that info after work. Anything specific you're looking for, e.g. knock sensor, engine temp, etc? I think I can only graph up to 6 sensors, or send everything to a csv file everything (I've never try that, so I don't know).

 

What did you think of my #7 I tried that I mention 2 posts ago? Does that yield any clue?

[dirtrider]

Morning Trent

 

The more the merrier-- as much data as you can trap when the o2 is showing a flat line.

 

A .csv file will work as I can open that but finding a place online to host it is more difficult.

 

If you can't find a place to host it then look up (the other lee) on this site as he has helped others post their .csv file.

 

 

 

[AnotherLee]

Yes - I'd be glad to help but looks like Trent understands hosting to post those beautiful lambda plots.

 

Don't know how it is on a camhead but on an oilhead removing the injectors is just two screws and a twist.

[roger 04 rt]

What the O2 sensor is telling you is that: a) it's working properly and b) for some reason your mixture is very LEAN or your combustion is incomplete (engine missing). That low voltage says that there is unconsumed oxygen in the exhaust.

 

As DR suggested, log ALL realtime values to a CSV file, not just the ones you think you need. Also put data speed in turbo mode.

 

Is there a throttle cable problem of some kind?

[roger 04 rt]

One more comment. Cylinder 1 is the RIGHT side, without TPS. The side with the TPS is working the side without TPS isn't. Maybe a cable, maybe a stepper, maybe something making the short term trim wrong. I'd like to look at the lambda control factors in the log. How long will it stay LEAN if you hold rpm?

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Trent

 

Roger brings up a very good point on the R/H throttle cable, it is easy to get that R/H cable out of it's correct routing so it pulls slightly out of the R/H TB bracket or gets slightly pulled out of the splitter box.

 

If that is happening the fueling will usually be OK (or close anyhow) at idle with the stepper correcting the remainder. Once the throttle starts opening that tight cable puts the R/H throttle plate way ahead of the fueling curve & it goes lean on that side.

 

So, definitely verify that BOTH SIDE throttle cams lift off their stops at the same time (difficult to do by yourself) & verify that both sides hit the wide open stops at the very same time .

 

Or put a U tube manometer on the TB nipples & verify that the vacuum tracks close to even as the throttle is slowly opened above idle.

 

A mis-routed R/H cable can also fit your randomness (sp) as the cable will sometimes allow close side to side balance then due to throttle quick movement be out of position & allow a severe cross side imbalance.

[trent]

Thanks Roger and D.R. for the good info, not sure I understand it all (TPS = Throttle position sensor?), let me read it a few time and see if I can do this or have any questions.

 

Meanwhile...

 

I reset the idle actuators and the adaption values, then took the bike for a spin.

 

Then I captured some data and put it in a CSV file here to download.

 

Note that I rolled on to 2500 RPMs and you can see the lambda voltage go down, and then let off going back to idle for comparison.

Nothing jump out at me, except the Lambda heat sensors are going on and off, not sure if that's normal, but it seems to be happening on both side.

 

Bike felt fine on the test ride, just a slight abruption on going from idle to initial throttle. But the lean data suggest to me it could be running better.

[trent]

Okay, so I think I get what you guys are saying.

 

I need to verify that the right hand throttle body is being controlled correctly (the cables) by the throttle position sensor which actuates the butterfly value.

 

Note sure how I would "verify that BOTH SIDE throttle cams lift off their stops at the same time ... & verify that both sides hit the wide open stops at the very same time." I'll have to read up on this more.

 

But you say alternately (and possibly easier) I could use a U tube manometer?

I think I've seen some youtube videos doing this for throttle syncing.

Do I use something like a Twin Max Carb Syncronizer to do that? If so, where can I get one of these?

 

[trent]

You're right Lee, I took a look, and it does not look too hard to swap the injectors.

 

I'm going to look into this throttle cable thing first.

 

Perhaps this weekend if I am brave enough I'll swap the injectors, it does not look any harder than what I've tried thus far. Any words of advise, tip, trick, or fair warning I should know?

 

I don't think I can work on the bike until this Saturday, I'll let you guys know then what I discover.

[dirtrider]

Morning Trent

 

Don't swap the injectors until someone looks at your .csv data.

(maybe something will stick out)

 

 

Hopefully Roger can look this morning. I can't look until much later tonight as I won't download unknown data while at work here.

 

If someone else looks at the data then pay attention to Lambda control factors, Lambda Sensor voltages, idle actuator positions, TPS (well basically all data but those are the main players).

 

On the verifying throttle cams--Just have someone operate the throttle slowly while you watch operation, or reach in with a finger from each hand while someone (carefully & slowly) operates the twist grip.

 

On the manometer-- nothing better than a homemade "U" tube manometer for ultimate accuracy. But a Twin Max is easier to use on a system that is WAY out of adjustment.

 

If you use a homemade manometer use a fluid that the engine can digest (like light oil or 2 cycle oil) as there is a chance that your TB openings are way off.

 

The upside to a homemade manometer is: nothing more accurate than a simple "U" tube liquid manometer.

 

The downside to a homemade liquid manometer is: if hooked to system that is way off it will suck the fluid out of the manometer faster than you can say WTF.

 

[roger 04 rt]

I agree, don't swap injectors yet. I'll look at the code this morning.

[trent]

Awesome, thanks guys. Take your time with the data, and if you need more let me know how long, and at what RPMs you want me to capture.

[roger 04 rt]

It's pretty clear in the CSV file what is happening. Here are my observations:

 

The engine isn't running as smoothly as it can at idle, the spark advance jumps around a few degrees. Not surprising given what else I see.

 

You have two throttle positions: Closed, idling at about 1150 RPM and Open 0.78% & RPMs at about 2500. The sequence is 1150 RPM, then 2500 RPM for about 25 seconds, then 1150 RPM for another 25 seconds.

 

When you open the throttle to 0.78 degrees, Cylinder 1 immediately goes lean and stays there the entire time the engine is at 2500 RPM. Lambda control factor 1 (LCF1) goes from about 0.8 at 1150 rpm, quickly (6 sec.) to 1.25 (max value), meaning from a 20% fuel cut to a 25% fuel addition. As a comparison, LCF2, the left cylinder, runs at about 0.92 the entire time.

 

The idle stepper motors track fairly well, but not perfectly, at idle. I think given the situation, that's not a huge surprise. During idle in the ending 25 second period, the idle stepper motors tracked perfectly.

 

The injection time goes from 1.78 mS at 1150 RPM to 1.92 mS at 2500 RPM and then back to 1.78 mS at 1150 RPM. Injection time barely changes so fuel injected is not likely the problem. Swapping injectors likely won't matter.

 

Here's what's going on: LCF1 (right side) is running at ~0.8 at idle at first because the hidden long term trim has been adding fuel due to the need for more fuel above idle (e.g. when LCF1 goes to 1.25 at 2500 RPM). As soon as the throttle is opened 0.78%, lifting the throttles off the idle stepper motor, there is a very lean condition on Cyl 1 as measured by the O2 sensor. This means a lot more air is entering cylinder 1 compared to cylinder 2. As a result, LCF1 has to crank in a lot more fuel to get to a lambda=1 mixture and the LCF goes from 0.8 to 1.25, and even that isn't enough fuel to get the O2 sensor voltage to indicate rich so that it can toggle around lambda=1 (450 mV).

 

As to why, the Right Hand Throttle Body is adding more air than the left, that's for you guys to figure out.

[dirtrider]

 

The injection time goes from 1.78 mS at 1150 RPM to 1.92 mS at 2500 RPM and then back to 1.78 mS at 1150 RPM. Injection time barely changes so fuel injected is not likely the problem. Swapping injectors likely won't matter.

 

Afternoon Roger / Trent

 

It still might matter, I still haven't got a chance to view the data but what you are seeing is COMMANDED injector time not actual fuel flow through the injectors. (ie a plugged injector or injector screen might not pass much fuel even though it is commanded to on for XXX amount of time)

 

From what Roger has posted above your next step should probably be to verify TB throttle plate timing (either by visual/finger, or manometer/gauge set/ or twin max, etc)

 

At least eliminate a TB timing problem before moving on to more difficult tasks.

[roger 04 rt]

 

The injection time goes from 1.78 mS at 1150 RPM to 1.92 mS at 2500 RPM and then back to 1.78 mS at 1150 RPM. Injection time barely changes so fuel injected is not likely the problem. Swapping injectors likely won't matter.

 

Afternoon Roger / Trent

 

It still might matter, I still haven't got a chance to view the data but what you are seeing is COMMANDED injector time not actual fuel flow through the injectors. (ie a plugged injector or injector screen might not pass much fuel even though it is commanded to on for XXX amount of time)

 

From what Roger has posted above your next step should probably be to verify TB throttle plate timing (either by visual/finger, or manometer/gauge set/ or twin max, etc)

 

At least eliminate a TB timing problem before moving on to more difficult tasks.

 

Afternoon DR,

 

The reason that I'm thinking that it's not the injectors is that with a commanded time of 1.78 mS, both sides seem to respond equally well, when the throttle is opened 0.78% the commanded time goes to 1.92. Seems likely to me that if they work well at 1.78 mS, they will work the same at 1.92 mS. Of course reasoning can only take you so far.

 

RB

[trent]

You guys are great. I will work on 'verify TB throttle plate timing' this weekend.

 

Thanks guys, I owe you each a beer, and I will keep you posted.

 

 

[trent]

I ordered a Motion Pro 08-0411 Syncpro Carburetor Tuner and it should make it here by Saturday.

 

I reviewed R1200 series Throttle Body Sync Pictorial and it does not look to difficult, but I do have some questions.

 

These may seem like a silly questions, but here it goes.

1. If I need to make an adjustment, do I adjust from the side the that is showing higher or lower?

2. Is the lock nut the one on the top or bottom?

3. D.R. Where are the "throttle cams"; do I need to remove something to see them?

[trent]

Could you point out where the throttle cam is?

 

The throttle cable leads to my red arrow.

 

I assume its somewhere near my red arrows.

[trent]

Sorry about the broken links above, I'm find it difficult post pics here.

 

try these...

 

left

 

right

 

[trent]

Nevermind, I found the throttle cams. They are on the underside of where the throttle cables. Duh!

[dirtrider]

 

Morning trent

 

Good, you found the cams.

 

When doing your balance check NEVER turn the base idle stop screws (should have a dab of blue paint

indexing them), those screws are factory set & should never be moved (never).

 

Only thing to move is the cable adjusters at the TB's & that is only for above-idle balance.

(if curb idle balance is off a little that is OK as you can't easily change it)

 

Another thing to check is that the cable adjust furrel is not broken (I have seen a couple broken

on the BMW camhead)

 

Also, before making any adjustment changes make darn sure the cable is FULLY seated on BOTH ENDS.

(a cable pulled out a little on either end, or stretched tight, or broken adjuster furrel can

drive the balance crazy)

 

If possible adjust the R/H side cable adjuster rather than the L/H cable to balance the cross side

balance, but common sense applies here, so use that above all else.

 

See picture below (I borrowed it from wvpc then added captions)

 

The picture clearly shows the cable adjuster broken at the TB attachment.

A broken adjuster will drive the TB balance & engine runability crazy.

 

I'm not sure how much I will be here (on this site) this weekend (depends on internet

availability in the outback).

 

I do suggest that before you move or adjust anything (other than the cable adjuster)

that you check in here or refer to the BMW service manual before adjusting anything.

 

I took a quick look at your .CSV file & didn't see anything that stood out other than

what Roger already posted above. (stepper counts seems high for warm engine curb idle

but that might just be in response to the way it is running now)

 

 

 

[AnotherLee]

Trent wrote:

2. Is the lock nut the one on the top or bottom?

 

Trent - You've no doubt figured this out already, but in case you haven't, see DR's picture of the broken adjuster. It shows the lock nut very well - it's the one on the bottom.

[trent]

I visually inspected the throttle cables.

* main one from the hand throttle looks good, with only the slightest play, I'd approximate about 1mm. Certainly no more than 2mm.

* left and right cables, and cams look good, and move freely. No binding, and it looks to be where it should be in the cams.

* cable adjust furrel are not broken

* cams seem to be resting on the stop on CLOSE at the same time, I had the wife actuate the throttle, and I had my fingers on the stops.

* cams seem to be resting on the stop on OPEN at the same time, there is no play (meaning I can't push further with my finger) on either cam with the throttle full open.

 

I'll try to take a throttle sync measurement as soon as the tool comes in, hopefully this weekend.

* What will it mean if the sync is off by only a little?

* What will it mean if the sync is off by a lot?

* What will it mean if its dead on?

* Say the throttle cable adjusters are *perfect* could something throw off the sync test.

 

The thought occurred to me:

* I've been doing the valve inspections myself, could it be the head gasket or the

donut where the sparkplug goes? I dont see any binding on the gasket.

 

What's other things might it be...

* valve alignment way off

* stuck butterfly valve

* blocked fuel line

* blocked or cracked vent line

* fuel pressure sensor

* fuel injector

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning Trent

 

Bear with me here I'm trying to do this in unfamiliar surroundings__

 

* cams seem to be resting on the stop on OPEN at the same time, there is no play (meaning I can't push further with my finger) on either cam with the throttle full open.___ Then doesn't look like this is you problem.

I'll try to take a throttle sync measurement as soon as the tool comes in, hopefully this weekend.____ Yes, this should show IF your problem lies in this area.

* What will it mean if the sync is off by only a little? ___ Probably nothing useful.

* What will it mean if the sync is off by a lot? ___ Cable issue, TB issue, or engine mechanical issue (probably found your problem).

* What will it mean if its dead on?___ That problem lies elsewhere (we'll just have to find it)

* Say the throttle cable adjusters are *perfect* could something throw off the sync test. (Yes, something like a leaking valve or intake air leak)

 

The thought occurred to me:

* I've been doing the valve inspections myself, could it be the head gasket or the

donut where the sparkplug goes? I dont see any binding on the gasket.___ Highly unlikely that these are effecting your problem.

 

What's other things might it be...

* valve alignment way off___ Only if a very tight valve but it seems close at idle so probably not a valve.

* stuck butterfly valve____ Doubtful.

* blocked fuel line ___ Again doubtful.

* blocked or cracked vent line___ No.

* fuel pressure sensor___ No.

* fuel injector___ Yes, that is a possibility.

 

I'm not sure when I will get back to look here so if I don't & you find that your TB balance test is good, or close anyhow,(above idle-- checked in/at the problem RPM) then next move I would personally do is see if it will run on JUST the upper spark plugs (don't just pull the lowers off the spark plugs though, either unplug the electrical wires from coils OR use ground wires in the plug boots to short the coils to ground (simulate spark plugs present). Allowing coils to spark with no grounding load could damage the coils due to internal arcing.

[trent]

D.R. I tried running the bike without the bottom coils. I disconnected the electric plug.

It started and sounded rough and if I gave it throttle it wanted to die , but didn't.

Not sure if this tells us anything.

 

Next I got my sync kit in the mail and took these photos.

 

First I got the bike up to temp, 180 to 210 F.

 

I locked the steppers. (Note that I had to do this twice as I forgot that step the first time, but I ended up with pretty much the same results.

 

Setup for device calibration, when engine was up to normal temp.

 

Calibration of device at idle from, connected to the left throttle body.

It comes with this manifold thingy that I need to do first apparently.

You connect all four hoses to it, then plug a single hose in to one of the throttle bodies.

The directions described the master carburetor, but since this is EFI, I just connected it to the left side.

 

Next I disconnected the hoses from that little calibration manifold and hooked 1 to TB1 and 2 to TB2. The directions clearly state that I could leave the other 2 hoses disconnected and it would not effect anything.

 

My Setup.

 

At idle, no throttle.

 

At around 2500 RPMs, it was hard to take the pic and actuate the throttle.

 

Before I start wrenching on throttle adj, I was thinking of looking at the valve clearances?

 

Also, while I know what to turn (rather where to turn) I'm don't really know if I should do it on the right side, or left side, or if I have to play with both to take up any slack.

 

D.R., you said not to touch the bottom screw right? So I guess I need to turn the top screw.

 

I'll watch a few more videos on this, and wait for your guys opinion before going further.

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

 

 

Morning Trent

 

Not much time on my part this morning so if I miss something please ask again.

 

I locked the steppers. (Note that I had to do this twice as I forgot that step the first time, but

I ended up with pretty much the same results.---Don't lock steppers for your CHECK as it

runs without them locked--but DO lock them for final adjustment if you like.

 

 

Before I start wrenching on throttle adj, I was thinking of looking at the valve clearances?---VERY

GOOD IDEA & it should be done that way.

 

Also, while I know what to turn (rather where to turn) I'm don't really know

if I should do it on the right side, or left side, or if I have to play with both to take up any slack.---

Adjust R/H side cable IF POSSIBLE, but you CAN adjust L/H if you need to to maintain proper cable slack on

both sides.

 

D.R., you said not to touch the bottom screw right? So I guess I need to turn the top screw. (see picture)

 

CAUTION: don't over-tighten the adjuster nut or force anything as the cable adjuster furrel can break off rather easily

 

 

 

 

 

[lkraus]

CAUTION: don't over-tighten the adjuster nut or force anything as the cable adjuster furrel can break off rather easily

 

Ditto. The lock nut is generally tightened by feel, but remember that it is on a hollow tube with thin walls. It needs a lot less torque than the same size nut on a solid bolt.

 

From the BMW repair DVD:

 

Intake stub pressure differential

With throttle valves closed, engine idling: max 25 mbar

With throttle valves slightly open 1400...1800 min-1: max 15 mbar

I don't know what the units are on your balancer, you can do the conversion yourself, if you wish. Main thing is to just get the two sides as equal as possible.

 

Imbalances are more apparent at small throttle openings, so there is no benefit to checking balance above 1800 rpm. The computer is adjusting the mixture at higher rpms anyway.

[roger 04 rt]

CAUTION: don't over-tighten the adjuster nut or force anything as the cable adjuster furrel can break off rather easily

 

Ditto. The lock nut is generally tightened by feel, but remember that it is on a hollow tube with thin walls. It needs a lot less torque than the same size nut on a solid bolt.

 

From the BMW repair DVD:

 

Intake stub pressure differential

With throttle valves closed, engine idling: max 25 mbar

With throttle valves slightly open 1400...1800 min-1: max 15 mbar

I don't know what the units are on your balancer, you can do the conversion yourself, if you wish. Main thing is to just get the two sides as equal as possible.

 

Imbalances are more apparent at small throttle openings, so there is no benefit to checking balance above 1800 rpm. The computer is adjusting the mixture at higher rpms anyway.

 

The computer is adjusting the mixture at almost all RPMs, including idle.

 

Your first point is right just get the throttles off the stops and cables fully tensioned, then get the air equal. The BMSK will use O2 sensors to get the fuel equal.

[trent]

Thanks guys,

 

Ikras, I don't think this meter has a specific unit. As noted above, you calibrate it by the little manifold hooked to one cylinder, and get them all even.

 

I'll have breakfast then check the valves first.

 

Questions about my last two pics above:

 

At idle L/TB (just under 7) and R/TB (just under 9)

@2.5k L/TB (just over 12) and R/TB (just over 7)

Does that seem odd to anyone, that the L/TB almost doubled, while the R/TB actually went down 2 units ???

 

What if I get it balanced at idle, but it's way off at @ 2K or 3K RPMS?

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Trent

 

At idle L/TB (just under 7) and R/TB (just under 9)

@2.5k L/TB (just over 12) and R/TB (just over 7)

 

Does that seem odd to anyone, that the L/TB almost doubled, while the R/TB actually went down 2 units ???

---With the .CSV data showing different stepper counts something a bit odd there. Intake vacuum

goes down as throttle plate is opened so R/H going down is normal, L/H going up is a bit strange bit if it is

lagging a bit it could go up slightly until the throttle plate starts to open. (see how it acts when you get it all balanced)

 

What if I get it balanced at idle, but it's way off at @ 2K or 3K RPMS?--- Nothing

you can do (adjustment wise) to balance the idle.

 

 

With stepper controlled idle THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO OR CHANGE for idle balance.

(don't even try)

 

The only thing you can effect with adjustments is the above idle balance using the cable

adjusters. (NEVER move the idle stop screws)

 

Personally I don't lock the steppers for idle balance (some people do & some don't), my

(personal) preference is do the above idle balance the very same way the engine runs down the road

(you don't ride the bike around with locked steppers do you?)

 

BUT, if there is a drastic difference in stepper count at idle, or a big difference in cross side

vacuum at idle, then there is something wrong with engine, or TB leakage, or control, or ??? so that idle vac

uum variance should be found & corrected before doing final above idle balance.

[roger 04 rt]

...

At idle L/TB (just under 7) and R/TB (just under 9)

@2.5k L/TB (just over 12) and R/TB (just over 7)

Does that seem odd to anyone, that the L/TB almost doubled, while the R/TB actually went down 2 units ???

 

What if I get it balanced at idle, but it's way off at @ 2K or 3K RPMS?

 

What you're seeing on the vacuum gauges and what we saw in the CSV file look exactly the same. An imbalance at 2500 RPM. I think there are a couple things to confirm.

 

1) Run a short log and manually blip the RIGHT throttle plate to be sure that the RIGHT cylinder is Cylinder #1 in the CSV file. Let the bike idle with the log running, move the throttle plate or pull the cap off the bottom of the vacuum port. Just something to disturb the right cylinder.

 

2) Does a higher number on your gauge mean HIGHER manifold vacuum?

 

What I saw in the CSV file suggests that Cylinder 1 had lower manifold vacuum.

 

RB

[trent]

Well valves clearances look great.

 

Left Top Exhaust .35mm

Left Bottom Exhaust: .38mm

Left Top Intake .17mm

Left Bottom Intake .20mm

 

Right Top Exhaust .35mm

Right Bottom Exhaust: .35mm

Right Top Intake .17mm

Right Bottom Intake .17mm

 

Oddly I noticed that on the left side, as I was getting the valves to TDC that I could hear the cylinder build and release pressure. I could NOT hear this on the right side.

 

Then I did a sync...

I got them the same, looked good at idle and at 3000 RPM

Then while trying to lock the lock bolt I knocked it out of sync again,

but with enough tries I got it close enough with the lock bolt snug,

wasn't perfect but I was starting to get frustrated and I didn't want the engine to overheat. But it was close enough I would say.

 

The O2 chart looked Great!

 

Then Test ride,

First thing I noticed is that the mirrors no longer vibrate like crazy. It felt REALLY good.

Little stop and go traffic (10 minutes) to get to a long straight away so I could cruz at 65 MPH.. which I did and still felt REALLY good, THEN ...........

I took the stop and go traffic again to get back and the bike really wanted to DIE at the stop lights. On my very last turn before heading home it died, but I was able to get it back to on its own power, barely

When I got it in the driveway it died again (3 time), IT SMELLED REALLY RICH.

 

Hindsight, I SHOULD have to a reading shortly after, but the bike died and I was getting annoyed.

 

I'm going to give myself a few days to rest. I'm irritated and need to cool down, and don't want to waste any more time this long holiday weekend on it.

I have an apt. set up with the dealer for next saturday, but before then I will probably do one last LOOK at the sync (In case I thought it off some how during the ride) and a plot of the O2.

 

Thanks everyone for all your help.

 

D.R. and Roger if you guys have paypal accounts please send me a private message with the email address you use for your paypal account so I can give you a few bucks for all your time and patients.

 

[dirtrider]

Evening Trent

 

You have something crazy going on there, like maybe a stick coil acting up hot, or an injector issue that comes & goes, or ????

 

That build/release pressure difference you noted might indicate something & might not (personally I would run a compression test & leak down test just to be sure) but the way you said it ran after the sync doesn't point to engine mechanical issues.

 

Probably my next move would be to try (known good) upper coils but that is difficult without having access to known good coils & new ones are pretty darn expensive.

 

Might be good to do another balance check before taking to dealer & if found OFF look REAL CLOSE at the lower throttle cables again, especially where they enter the cable splitter box (if they aren't well seated there the balance will keep changing as you ride it

 

 

[roger 04 rt]

Well valves clearances look great.

 

Left Top Exhaust .35mm

Left Bottom Exhaust: .38mm

Left Top Intake .17mm

Left Bottom Intake .20mm

 

Right Top Exhaust .35mm

Right Bottom Exhaust: .35mm

Right Top Intake .17mm

Right Bottom Intake .17mm

 

Oddly I noticed that on the left side, as I was getting the valves to TDC that I could hear the cylinder build and release pressure. I could NOT hear this on the right side.

 

Then I did a sync...

I got them the same, looked good at idle and at 3000 RPM

Then while trying to lock the lock bolt I knocked it out of sync again,

but with enough tries I got it close enough with the lock bolt snug,

wasn't perfect but I was starting to get frustrated and I didn't want the engine to overheat. But it was close enough I would say.

 

The O2 chart looked Great!

 

Then Test ride,

First thing I noticed is that the mirrors no longer vibrate like crazy. It felt REALLY good.

Little stop and go traffic (10 minutes) to get to a long straight away so I could cruz at 65 MPH.. which I did and still felt REALLY good, THEN ...........

I took the stop and go traffic again to get back and the bike really wanted to DIE at the stop lights. On my very last turn before heading home it died, but I was able to get it back to on its own power, barely

When I got it in the driveway it died again (3 time), IT SMELLED REALLY RICH.

 

Hindsight, I SHOULD have to a reading shortly after, but the bike died and I was getting annoyed.

 

I'm going to give myself a few days to rest. I'm irritated and need to cool down, and don't want to waste any more time this long holiday weekend on it.

I have an apt. set up with the dealer for next saturday, but before then I will probably do one last LOOK at the sync (In case I thought it off some how during the ride) and a plot of the O2.

 

Thanks everyone for all your help.

 

D.R. and Roger if you guys have paypal accounts please send me a private message with the email address you use for your paypal account so I can give you a few bucks for all your time and patients.

 

Thanks for the ind words.

 

You mentioned that you got it synced at 3000 rpm. What steps did you take to get that to happen? What did you adjust?

RB

[trent]

Morning Gents.

 

After yesterday's test ride, I tried to start the bike twice and it would not start.

 

First try.

About 2 hours after the ride, it occurred to me that maybe I simply ran out of gas on the way home, checked the take and it had just a little splashing around so I added a gallon of fresh gas. (I took the car and my 1 gallon rotx gas can). I tried starting it first, without adding the gas to verify it was still having a prob and it was a no go. Then I added the gallon, tried again, and still no go.

 

Second try.

About 2 hours after the first try, I tired again, still no go. I wont fire. I didnt have time to look at it too closely, but I did notice that the side that I adj (R/H), that the lock ring was kind of loose.

 

So now I don't even have a running bike. Its too early right now to try and start the bike, but I will try a little later. This is my plan for a little latter:

1. I'll look over all the cables again and I'll try to start it without doing anything. If no go then,

2. I'll loosen the lock nut, and adj a quarter turn in one direction, if that does not work, I'll return back to where it was, then adj a quarter turn the opposite direction. If that does not work,

 

I'll have to take an intermission to go a cook out, and if I feel up to it, will continue with the next 2 steps.

 

3. I'll pull the top coils again, and make sure that I didnt forget to torque the spark plugs, if they are at torque, I may

4. swap the spark plugs with a older set that I have that 'look' to be in good order.

 

Roger, to answer your question on how I synced it, this is what I did.

1. I did the little captured a log of exactly what you asked me to do in your previous post. I will put that up shortly. I did this before beginning any synce.

2. WITHOUT locking the steppers, I calibrated the meter again, and synced the throttle around 3K RPMS. I did this by adj the throttle cable on the R/H side only and had to move the adj at least a quarter turn, but not much more, could be less.

It was dead on, and so I let it idle, and it was looking good there too, this seemed to easy I said to myself.

3. Stopped the bike and locked the steppers, started it again, and took another reading, looked good, but was not perfect. I should have left well enough alone, but I thought I'll just adj that bit to make it perfect. This time I was having much more trouble getting them even, and even more trouble keeping it even trying to lock the lock nut. But I got them fairly close and I stopped there because I didn't want to overheat the engine. It was around 250 F.

4. I took one more reading and the O2 sensors were looking good, both side were oscillating very nicely

 

When I took it for the test ride, for the first time since I can remember the mirrors didn't vibrate like crazy. I was not intending to look at the mirrors but it was so noticeably clearer. I could actually see some detail like reading a sign in my mirrors. I thought great, I did it! But that was short lived on the final approach home, where it died on my 3 times.

[trent]

Roger, I did the blip test that you asked for before doing any sync.

The CSV file should be available here:CSV

 

I tried following what you said

'Run a short log and manually blip the RIGHT throttle plate to be sure that the RIGHT cylinder is Cylinder #1 in the CSV file. Let the bike idle with the log running, move the throttle plate or pull the cap off the bottom of the vacuum port. Just something to disturb the right cylinder.'

 

Except I just blipped the throttle, I didn't know how to blib the RT throttle plate.

If that nullifies the test, then don't waist your time.

 

You can see the blip around rows 9-11, again at 20, and again then shortly after the second blib, pulled the cap off the vacuum port (which really upset the bike) then quickly capped it back. Then I let it idle a bit.

[dirtrider]

Morning Trent

 

I only have a minute here as I'm riding but you might try holding the twist grip at about 1/4 throttle to start it.

 

See if that works>

 

 

[trent]

I gave it a quarter turn and it was able to start but sounded really bad, and poured out white smoke from the back.

 

I pulled the plugs and they were all fouled.

 

I'm going to take it into the dealer next Sat. before doing anything else.

 

I'll check in when all is said and done just to let you guys know. But thanks anyway for all the help.

[dirtrider]

I gave it a quarter turn and it was able to start but sounded really bad, and poured out white smoke from the back.

I pulled the plugs and they were all fouled.

 

Afternoon Trent

 

Any chance you had contaminated (re water in fuel) gasoline in that thing?-- That white smoke, & difficult starting, & running bad sort or points to bad gasoline.

[trent]

So for an update. I had it towed to the dealers (with tail between my legs) and told them what I did. I gave them the rundown, and asked them for a compression test.

 

Basically, their computer read no fault codes.

 

The compression test showed

R= 195 L = 195... Which I assume is okay, since they were even at least.

 

They reset the adaptive values,

Calibrated the idle actuators,

and synced the throttles.

 

The ride home (about a 30-45 min ride though some backroads) was un-eventful.

 

I threw the sync on it once I got home, just for comparison, and it showed that right side was a bit higher then the left side. pretty much what it said before I started turning any knobs. Then as I eased it up to 3K they rose together evenly.

 

Then a quick check of the O2 voltage, and it looked okay as well.

 

Hopefully, I'll get to take it on a long ride either tomorrow or tues, and I'll report then if this issue has cleared.

 

Thanks again for the help.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[trent]

The issues has been resolved! Or at least it seams. I decide to take the bike to a different dealer, and there tech took it out with a bunch of different parts on him. He road it around swapping out parts until he found the issue.

 

It was the TPS (Throttle Pressure Sensor)... A $129 part that almost anyone could swap out.

 

Today, I had to split lanes for almost 2 hours straight (from LA to Orange County) a condition that would have definatly put the bike in a fit, but actually the bike ran perfectly, better than it has in recent memory.

 

I was on the brink of frustration, but my confidence has been restored in the bike.

 

It truly is a fine machine, just wish the fuel/oxygen management system wasn't so complex and hard to diagnose when things go south. I mean you got the plugs, upper coils, lower coils, fuel pumps, fuel filter, injectors, actuators, tps, o2 sensors, throttle sync, throttle cables, exhaust flap, ECU, knock sensors, pink sensors, engine temp sensor, etc, etc, etc... and if one of those things, slightly goes, they

can all produce similar symptoms. It also doesn't help that The DOHC bikes, (2010-2013) have been made to run ultra lean to begin with.

 

On that note, I heard that you can ask your dealer to map the ECU to a 'poor fuel' mapping, meant for those people that actually take their bike around the world. The idea is that the bike will run less lean, and hence run cooler and better than running on a default mapping which was made to pass the strict EPA standards.

 

Anyone heard of this?

[dirtrider]

The issues has been resolved! Or at least it seams. I decide to take the bike to a different dealer, and there tech took it out with a bunch of different parts on him. He road it around swapping out parts until he found the issue.

 

It was the TPS (Throttle Pressure Sensor)... A $129 part that almost anyone could swap out.

 

Today, I had to split lanes for almost 2 hours straight (from LA to Orange County) a condition that would have definatly put the bike in a fit, but actually the bike ran perfectly, better than it has in recent memory.

 

I was on the brink of frustration, but my confidence has been restored in the bike.

 

It truly is a fine machine, just wish the fuel/oxygen management system wasn't so complex and hard to diagnose when things go south. I mean you got the plugs, upper coils, lower coils, fuel pumps, fuel filter, injectors, actuators, tps, o2 sensors, throttle sync, throttle cables, exhaust flap, ECU, knock sensors, pink sensors, engine temp sensor, etc, etc, etc... and if one of those things, slightly goes, they

can all produce similar symptoms. It also doesn't help that The DOHC bikes, (2010-2013) have been made to run ultra lean to begin with.

 

On that note, I heard that you can ask your dealer to map the ECU to a 'poor fuel' mapping, meant for those people that actually take their bike around the world. The idea is that the bike will run less lean, and hence run cooler and better than running on a default mapping which was made to pass the strict EPA standards.

 

Anyone heard of this?

 

Morning Trent

 

Yes, I have heard of that but only on the GS/GS-A, it m-i-g-h-t be possible on the RT also but I haven't ever heard of it being done on the RT. In any case it doesn't change the fuel mixture itself (doesn't make it run less lean) it changes the spark advance curve.