BMW Motorrad Executives Responsible

[Argo]

I remain curious as to who in the BMW Motorrad Group will be held responsible for the 2014 R1200RT disaster? Secondly, will those executives be rewarded or will they have their employment terminated.

 

Surely somebody is responsible for the procurement of this substandard motorcycle component.

 

Finally, the executive who has masterminded the `We don't know' response to our inquiries should also be fired.

 

Very, very frustrated

Argo

[Selden]

Argo : BMW is a German company, not a Japanese company. I suspect the answers to your questions are zero.

[lkchris]

It's a supplier problem.

 

BMW doesn't manufacture shocks.

 

It's highly unlikely the shock was poorly specified.

 

If the first, early days of a problem like this there are lots of unknowns.

 

Try to be positive and think lessons learned rather than retribution.

[Argo]

I feel you have misunderstood my meaning, that being In our global economy, corporations and their well paid executives have a duty of care to their collective clients and shareholders. The action i suggest protects the company's future, when all said and done, customers need to know (going forward) that they can have trust/faith in the brand.

 

I believe categorically that BMW procurement department sourced a `more cost effective' component for the usage in my 2014 BMW R1200RT, hence our unpalatable situation. Otherwise BMW R1200GS's would also be in the same boat!!!!

 

In truth, I believe somebody is responsible for this mess and I feel rather disappointed that this experience has thus far cost me somewhere in the vicinity 0f $AUD 35,000.00 (yes my bike/paper weight has options).

 

Curious to know do you have a `dog' in this fight?

 

Kindest Regards

Argo

[EffBee]

Oy vey. Here we go with the reactionary contingent. You want executives fired? Really? For what?

 

Do you know what the specific problem is with the shock (even assuming it’s the shock)?

I doubt it.

 

Assuming it’s the shock, do you know how many samples of that shock BMW tested, and for how many miles, and if they were tested both on the motorcycle as well as dynamically tested on a shock dyno?

I doubt it.

 

Do you now if any shocks failed during testing?

I doubt it.

 

Do you know if any BMW executives deliberately withheld evidence of an inferior part or of inferior performance or durability of a part?

I doubt it.

 

Is it possible that only 5% of the shocks (again assuming this to be the problem) are faulty, but in an effort to ensure the safety of ALL of its customers, BMW is going to the extreme measure of taking all of the potentially affected vehicles off the road and therefore deserve kudos for their thoroughness and customer valuation?

It’s possible. Certainly this is the most thorough recall in BMW’s recent history, internally generated it appears. Thus it was not forced upon them, but undertaken of their own corporate conscience.

 

You have nothing other than innuendo, personal inconvenience, rumor, anger and what appears to be a native distrust of corporations and their managers. And you seem to want everyone to accept as fact, and act upon, that which you can’t even prove, nor even accurately identify. I understand the dissatisfaction with the present situation. But it IS temporary and BMW has manned up and said there's a problem and they're going to fix it. Oh, and they're going to give you another full year of warranty as their personal apology for your inconvenience.

 

We can postulate and theorize until the cows come home. But until we have the facts, to suggest that BMW has ill will in its corporate heart over this issue, is as ludicrous as to say they are absolute angels. We don’t know. YOU don’t know. And until we do, it is best to work at gathering verifiable facts rather than rally the mob to cut off the king’s head because some third-level servant made poo-poo on your lawn.

 

Chill. The sky is not falling. And BMW, having authored this recall and global embarrassment, does NOT want to go through another one. So if there's a culprit, they'll fix his wagon. They have a national history of not tolerating incompetence.

[Argo]

Agreed, corporations should not be held responsible for their actions or their products.

 

How foolish of me

Argo

 

P.S. Are you employed by BMW or an associated entity?

[Beemafied]

It's the shock, the memo is out.

[Kitsap]

I won't give specifics but there have been issues of note that have made the news for the simplest cause in processes that have an incredible degree of oversight. Manufacturers spend a great deal of money managing their supply chain, but not all defects in a process can be found all the time. Trust me I just spent the last year trying.

 

No heads will or should roll unless there is proven negligence.

 

Cheers,

[EffBee]

Agreed, corporations should not be held responsible for their actions or their products.

 

How foolish of me

Argo

 

P.S. Are you employed by BMW or an associated entity?

 

Sorry, I forgot to include exaggeration in my list above.

 

Sachs made the shock. BMW tested it and it passed. Should each and every single one have been tested for 125,000 miles? How about every single motor, wheel bearing, hydraulic brake line, etc? You would then be willing to pay how much for such a thoroughly tested vehicle with that kind of mileage? No, you want something new that has been tested within statistical probability. There is a statistical sample that sufficiently represents the entire population of a given part. If the quantities in that sample passed, then downstream failures are an anomaly, not the norm. And from the looks of it (a couple of failures out of 8000 units), that's the case. However, instead of being grateful that BMW has taken such a drastic action (and a self-inflicted blow to their reputation) in order to help ensure your safety by requiring that all such bikes not be ridden, you want to hang someone. For what? Manning up?

 

I'll grant you that BMW hasn't always behaved in such a proactive manner. It's a great thing to see however, even if statistically it's a bit of an overreaction. However, I'm sure they would rather people like you likewise overreact, spew venom, call for crucifixions, scream "We was robbed!" and try to convert their reparative efforts into a straw man argument, than to run the risk of a single person being harmed. Apparently, this isn't good enough for you. What do you want, blood in exchange for your being inconvenienced?

 

As for being employed by BMW, the answer is no, although in the past I've worked for many a motorcycle- or aftermarket-related company, among which have been a BMW dealership. My last four bikes have been a Kawasaki KLR650 (bad camchain tensioner "thingy"), a Yamaha FJR1300 (recalled for valve ticking and a faulty altitude sensor), a Suzuki V-Strom 650 (had to have the ECU reprogrammed so it would run right), and a '99 BMWRT (no problems at all). I'm a 35-year veteran of this industry and I've seen the good and the bad. Some companies handle these unplanned problems better than others. And despite the inconvenience, the way BMW is handling this is a good thing.

 

Try and understand that stuff happens, and when it does and someone hands you the gift of your safety, perhaps even your life, you should at least show some appreciation in addition to venting about your woe.

[kltk165]

Good grief. They found a problem and are recalling/fixing the bikes. Give it a rest already. Can't agree more with EffBee.

 

As your rant is your first post, it's interesting that you joined just to blast away at BMW execs. FWIW, I'm proud of my BMWRT friends for not taking your bait.

[Alfred02]

FWIW, I'm proud of my BMWRT friends for not taking your bait.

Actually....

I was going to, but EffBee beat me to the punch.

[Davejr1200]

I'm as disappointed as many at the issues with my bike, but wanting people fired, no way. I am happy that as soon as they found a potential major problem that they took immediate action to safeguard their customers. Why would anyone want someone firing for this? Do you want a situation where the next time there is such a failure the person is so scared for their job that they hide it?

[chrisz]

I work in aerospace where we make parts for satellites, and if there is an issue with our parts we can't recall them to fix once they are in space. Hence we test the bejesus out of them to a point where we take about 30% of life out of them. In the end one unit costs as much as a new RT and fits in the palm of your hand. So an occasional anomaly on a complicated motorcycle/car what ever, is not that unusual and is cost/price effective. In a year or so something else will enthrall us.

[EffBee]

In a year or so something else will enthrall us.

 

How true, Chris. How true.

[Mike]

Really, it's only been six days since this particular bit of stuff hit the fan. BMW absolutely did the right thing in getting the affected RTs off the road, before someone was injured or died.

 

If, in a week or two, they haven't figured out how to address their customers' resultant problems, then they can be fairly criticized. But, let's give them a chance to get it right.

[EffBee]

Much is going to depend on their shock supplier (again, assuming the issue is within their domain). If it's a matter of them having an assembler who was misinformed and occasionally skipped installing a washer, then replacement should be relatively smooth. They want to keep BMW's business and they'll do what they have to in order to get properly assembled shocks out to their customer (BMW).

 

However, if the issue is one of failure due to design, then not only will it require redesign time, but testing time as well. If this is the case, people could be in for a wait. As Mike points out, let's see what path this all takes. So far, so good.

[onedae]

Very unfortunate turn of events for BMW's hot new bike. The reality is this is just another example of BMW's corporate culture of leading edge technology matched with sloppy execution and inferior quality control. Not just bikes - cars too. I know too many people who have reluctantly had to dump their BMW's under lemon law suits. Love the way the car drives but sick of all the recurring failures.

The problem is not with the manager of product development or Q/C - its the senior management and Board that set up the way BMW operates as a company.

 

[Argo]

It pleases me to advise that BMW Australia has `done the right thing' by the owners of 2014 RT's. All in all, I firmly believe that forums just like this (BMWsportTouring) assisted BMW into action. Congratulations to the BMW Executive/s that displayed such integrity in this unpalatable matter and chose to truly assist the owners of 2014 RT's.

 

This may well have been my first post that was rightfully or wrongly criticised, but it gave a voice to those of us who like me had only one bike and no other transport.

 

Will I stay with BMW, the short answer is `bloody oath'.

 

Once again thank you to those of you who glanced over my post.

 

Happy trails

Argo

[TarTripper]

 

I believe categorically that BMW procurement department sourced a `more cost effective' component for the usage in my 2014 BMW R1200RT, hence our unpalatable situation. Otherwise BMW R1200GS's would also be in the same boat!!!!

 

Curious to know do you have a `dog' in this fight?

 

 

II have a dog in this fight.

 

The manufacturer of this particular shock also supplies shocks to Harley Davidson, Triumph, MV Augusta and Ducati. To name a few. If you read their website blurb they run state of the art QA testing equipment, and CAD design equipment. I certainly wouldn't fire any BMW exec for choosing to source from this supplier. Nor would i agree with your use of the word 'cost effective' if what you are implying is 'cheap'.

 

Nor would I advocate a culture in a business in which everyone who takes day to day engineering decisions lives in fear of being fired for problems that were outside of their control.

 

Bottle up that negativity!. We're all frustrated but we have been lucky enough to be able to afford a really great bike - one which some can only dream of owning.

[Matter]

Good grief. They found a problem and are recalling/fixing the bikes. Give it a rest already. Can't agree more with EffBee.

 

As your rant is your first post, it's interesting that you joined just to blast away at BMW execs. FWIW, I'm proud of my BMWRT friends for not taking your bait.

 

Taking the bait? BMW has not said a damn word since 6/6. I would hope they'd take the 'bait' as you say and show some transparency. Its been 2 weeks for god's sake. Its PR protocol 101 to let customers know what's going on let alone common courtesy. This silent treatment is unacceptable.

 

You make it sound like its a done deal because they issued a stop ride/stop sale order. You are awfully blase and are way off base to tell customers who are justifiably pissed off to "give it a rest"

[Kathy R]

Good grief. They found a problem and are recalling/fixing the bikes. Give it a rest already. Can't agree more with EffBee.

 

As your rant is your first post, it's interesting that you joined just to blast away at BMW execs. FWIW, I'm proud of my BMWRT friends for not taking your bait.

 

Taking the bait? BMW has not said a damn word since 6/6. I would hope they'd take the 'bait' as you say and show some transparency. Its been 2 weeks for god's sake. Its PR protocol 101 to let customers know what's going on let alone common courtesy. This silent treatment is unacceptable.

 

You make it sound like its a done deal because they issued a stop ride/stop sale order. You are awfully blase and are way off base to tell customers who are justifiably pissed off to "give it a rest"

 

You quoted kltk165 from 6/11/14.

[Scout7]

A week ago, BMW NA provided dealers with 4 options for customers to choose the solution that works for them. Each customer at our dealership was notified of their choices the same night. Most have chosen to wait for their bike and take a loaner in the interim. Now the owner is trying to find bikes that work for each customer. Some customers are deciding what bike chosen from options.

 

If your dealer hasn't given you your options yet, call them. They aren't communicating with you the way corporate has told them they should.

 

[Haynes]

At least Aussies can be thankful that the recall has occurred outside of our best riding seasons.

[Alfred02]

Well, I picked up the 2014 R1200GS-LC today from the dealer as a loaner.

Verdict.....nice bike, but it can't hold water to the RT..not even close.

But it does feel light and easy to chuck around.

[Teddy]

Hope you are enjoying the ride Alfred, another week starts tomorrow and fingers crossed a loaner will be available this week.

 

Teddy

 

[Alfred02]

Time for BMW Australia to have a bit of a talk to your dealer.

On a German forum, one member reported that BMW Headquarters does take note of how dealers look after their customers!

Have you had the BMW survey yet?

If not, when you get it, give this dealer what he deserves, a good kick in the backside.

[Teddy]

Time for BMW Australia to have a bit of a talk to your dealer.

On a German forum, one member reported that BMW Headquarters does take note of how dealers look after their customers!

Have you had the BMW survey yet?

If not, when you get it, give this dealer what he deserves, a good kick in the backside.

 

No survey yet, it looks like I was one of the one's not picked as they don't survey everybody. Unless of course they rang on the Nullabor when I did not have any phone reception?

 

Teddy

[Alfred02]

Survey is via email notification and then it takes you to BMW Australia Website, where they ask you a variety of questions on which you give your dealer ratings.

[Teddy]

Survey is via email notification and then it takes you to BMW Australia Website, where they ask you a variety of questions on which you give your dealer ratings.

 

Well no emails yet either, perhaps my dealer has been giving me misinformation about the survey?

I will be asking about the "official" email tomorrow as well still waiting on that one too...

 

Teddy

[Haz]

I must have hit the jackpot with my dealer....They had me on a loan bike four days after the recall. They have also been keeping me informed (to the best of their ability) with what is happening.

[GZRBKR]

When I wasn't getting any info from my dealer I got onto the BMW Motorrad website. After some searching I found a message that said the recall happened as a result of a notice from the vendor. Of the approx 8k units in the US none had reported any problems. To me that and the fact that BMW has offered some very generous (imho) recompense to us affected folks, I feel they are being responsible. I took my bike into my local BMW shop for the 600 mile check and they told me if they looked at the rear shock and it wasn't leaking they would ride it anyway. It would leak first before it failed. Something to think about

[John in VA]

... I took my bike into my local BMW shop for the 600 mile check and they told me if they looked at the rear shock and it wasn't leaking they would ride it anyway. It would leak first before it failed. Something to think about

 

What I'd think about is: Regardless whether an owner wants to take a chance and ride when they've been warned not to, IMO it is completely irresponsible for any dealer to tell a customer to yeah go ahead and keep riding in the face of a manufacturer stop-ride notice.

 

Reading BMW's published notice, the shock's plunger rod has failed in the field and has failed the same way under vendor/manufacturer stress test. This could be catastrophic on the road, and even IF it's preceded by noticeable leaking (and it wouldn't necessarily), the leaking could start moments before sudden failure while cruising at 70mph. Personally, I'd be sweating the whole time.

 

If the rod does fail at speed and if severe injury results, good luck suing BMW. The rider could try to sue the dealer who advised that it's fine to just ride anyway, but even that's a stretch.

 

I'm sure BMW would very much like to know which dealers are telling owners to go ahead and keep riding when they've warned everyone to park the bike. My 2c.

[dirtrider]

Morning--

 

I guess from what was written I don't see the dealer telling the customer it is OK to ride the bike.

 

It sounds more to me that the dealer said THEY would ride the bike if the shock wasn't leaking.

 

That is my exact attitude on this shock problem-- I would ride the bike (in fact I have sort of traded with a friend & am riding his 2014RT while he rides my hexhead RT when we go riding together.

 

He is scared to death of his 2014RT due to all the hype & doomsday predictions.

 

I just did 150 miles on the 2014 this morning at hi-way speeds above ?????

 

I guess the way I look at it--- there is a WAY higher probability of having a tire issue or hitting a deer than having the rear shock come apart.

 

Even if the shock breaks, so what, if at 90% & leaned way over maybe an issue, but normal riding, I guess I just don't see the danger.

 

Since this shock deal came out I know of 2 riders in my area that have hit deer (one did go down hard).

 

But what do I know-- I also walk with scissors & ride a dirt bike fast on single track tree covered trails.

 

[John in VA]

There's being "scared to death" and there's being prudent in the face of a manufacturer warning. The two riders whose shocks failed wouldn't call it hype, and neither does the manufacturer that got the same failure during testing. I don't worry about tires failing or my shock coming apart -- but I would if the manufacturer said don't ride our tire or don't ride our shock.

 

Also, a minor point, my guess is if the shock fails and the bike is damaged (not to mention the rider) by a rider who knew of the stop-ride beforehand, no insurance company will make good on any damage claim that results directly from the shock failure.

 

Also, I would hope that any RT rider would have the courtesy to warn any pillion of the issue before going off on a tour loaded up with stuff so that the passenger can assess on their own the risk of a shock blowing up under their butt riding over a railroad crossing. The passenger should also realize their injuries may not be covered by the rider's insurance in that instance. Then again, maybe some insurance companies have generous hearts...

[dirtrider]

Morning John

 

I don't understand this lack of insurance thing. (I'm insured period, no vehicle inspection or safety inspection needed). Heck it doesn't even say I have to have enough air in my tires.

 

I see nothing in my insurance coverage that states that I won't be covered if I ride with a "suspected" problem.

 

In fact one of my co-workers got drunk & hit a line of parked cars, even went to jail overnight & all was covered by his insurance.

 

Now if the vehicle manufacture sent a registered letter to an owner stating to not ride then I can see having a little more difficult time suing the manufacturer if something happens, but if past history is any indication, even that might not allow BMW out of a reasonable payout.

 

The thing that gets me-- is all of a sudden BMW is concerned with a darn shock when all those years they didn't give a rat's a$$ about 1100/1150 sudden final drive failures dumping gear oil on the rear tire at speed, or sudden clutch spline failures stopping the bike dead-in-it's-tracks in front of hi speed oncoming vehicles, or failed fuel gauge strips running the bike out of gas in the hi-speed lane in 85 mph traffic.

 

To me it sounds way more like a BMW CYA thing than any real concern for the safety of it's loyal riders.

[Troppo]

 

I certainly would not be riding the bike after advice not to from the manufacturer.

 

As Colonel Jessop said "roll the dice and take your chances"....

 

 

[dirtrider]

I certainly would not be riding the bike after advice not to from the manufacturer.

 

 

 

Afternoon Troppo

 

That is what is great about this country-- the good ol USA.

 

You have a free choice to not ride if you don't feel comfortable doing so.

 

On the other hand I have the freedom to ride the he!! out of one if (I) choose to do so.

 

 

 

 

[Davejr1200]

Where does the law stand on this if say you go out of control after a failure and injure or kill a 3rd party?

[Dashbaw]

The thing that gets me-- is all of a sudden BMW is concerned with a darn shock when all those years they didn't give a rat's a$$ about 1100/1150 sudden final drive failures dumping gear oil on the rear tire at speed, or sudden clutch spline failures stopping the bike dead-in-it's-tracks in front of hi speed oncoming vehicles, or failed fuel gauge strips running the bike out of gas in the hi-speed lane in 85 mph traffic.

 

To me it sounds way more like a BMW CYA thing than any real concern for the safety of it's loyal riders.

 

Simple rational. Someone else is paying for this recall!

 

DA

[John in VA]

...I see nothing in my insurance coverage that states that I won't be covered if I ride with a "suspected" problem.

 

The problem isn't "suspected."

 

Two shocks failed in the field and one failed the same way on a sample during manufacturer testing. Perhaps there was a bad batch of a handful of shocks, of which only those three were a part. Perhaps there were hundreds; perhaps all of them are equally defective -- that is, the reproduced circumstance/pressure/jarring that causes failure in the stress test hasn't yet occurred on all the shocks in the field.

 

This could be viewed as a matter of chance, but working with chance requires odds. You can't determine odds in this case, especially since the stop-ride notice likely took most of the bikes off the road -- so those have zero opportunity to add to the failure samples, hence affecting the "odds."

 

Anyway, to each his own on taking a "chance" on whether a shock with known failures and defects will fail. But in this world no man is an island and there are issues of insurance and liability and injury to others. Just saying.

 

If I were, say, Geico and my customer was operating an insured vehicle despite being notified by the manufacturer (whether through registered mail or by a call from a dealer) to stop driving that vehicle due to a serious safety defect -- and then got injured or injured someone else, I sure wouldn't pay out. Many insurance companies can't be sued anymore in court for claims rejection because they bind all their customers to industry arbitration (check your policy), and I doubt an arbiter would rule for the customer in this case, but who knows. Yet another chance to weigh, but liability awards and hospital costs can get crazy high.

[dirtrider]

 

clip--If I were, say, Geico and my customer was operating an insured vehicle despite being notified by the manufacturer (whether through registered mail or by a call from a dealer) to stop driving that vehicle due to a serious safety defect -- and then got injured or injured someone else, I sure wouldn't pay out. Many insurance companies can't be sued anymore in court for claims rejection because they bind all their customers to industry arbitration (check your policy), and I doubt an arbiter would rule for the customer in this case, but who knows. Yet another chance to weigh, but liability awards and hospital costs can get crazy high.

 

Afternoon John

 

Well then I glad you are not my insurance company.

 

I suppose you wouldn't pay my claim, if for instance, I was doing 1 mph over the limit & caused an accident, or didn't inflate my tires properly & had a blow out & crashed, or maybe rode a BMW 1150 that I knew from experience cold suffer from a final drive failure at about any time & oil up my rear tire.

[John in VA]

... I took my bike into my local BMW shop for the 600 mile check and they told me if they looked at the rear shock and it wasn't leaking they would ride it anyway. It would leak first before it failed. Something to think about

 

From the NHTSA recall news release

 

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM456984/RCDNN-14V320-8223P.pdf

 

"The piston rod within the rear shock absorber can break without warning."

 

This should be read by dealers who tell RT owners that the shock would obviously leak as a "warning" before failing, and that if the rear shock isn't leaking, it's good to go.

[John in VA]

Afternoon John

 

Well then I glad you are not my insurance company.

 

I suppose you wouldn't pay my claim, if for instance, I was doing 1 mph over the limit & caused an accident, or didn't inflate my tires properly & had a blow out & crashed, or maybe rode a BMW 1150 that I knew from experience cold suffer from a final drive failure at about any time & oil up my rear tire.

 

Hi D.R.

 

There's an official NHTSA vehicle safety warning notice combined with a manufacturer's stop-ride notice. Such safety warnings are as serious as it gets; your analogies are not serious.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon John

 

Well then I glad you are not my insurance company.

 

I suppose you wouldn't pay my claim, if for instance, I was doing 1 mph over the limit & caused an accident, or didn't inflate my tires properly & had a blow out & crashed, or maybe rode a BMW 1150 that I knew from experience cold suffer from a final drive failure at about any time & oil up my rear tire.

 

Hi D.R.

 

There's an official NHTSA vehicle safety warning notice combined with a manufacturer's stop-ride notice. Such safety warnings are as serious as it gets; your analogies are not serious.

 

Morning John

 

Then obviously you haven't ever had a sudden & complete rear tire deflation at 80 mph & had both beads break free from the rim.

 

To me that is a LOT more serious than a shock rod breaking inside the shock.

 

 

[smiller]

There's an official NHTSA vehicle safety warning notice combined with a manufacturer's stop-ride notice. Such safety warnings are as serious as it gets; your analogies are not serious.

Using the 'insurance won't cover it' logic, just about every R1200 and K1200/1300 bike built in the last decade would not be rideable since they are under a manufacturer's recall for a high-pressure fuel leak, potentially a much more dangerous threat than the shock issue and also about as serious as it gets. If you couldn't ride a bike that had been declared potentially unsafe for some reason then just about every BMW motorcycle would disappear from the road

[Davejr1200]

Are they under a normal recall or a "Do Not Ride". I don't know about insurance but if you ride it and injure a 3rd party when you've explicitly been told it's not safe to ride I hope you like spending time being sued.

[dirtrider]

Morning Davejr1200

 

I'm sure nobody likes being sued but if a 3rd party is injured in an (ANY) vehicle accident I'll bet you will be sued no matter what the disposition of the bike or circumstances.

 

 

 

[Davejr1200]

Because of course there's no difference between the results of being sued after a genuine accident against one caused by negligence.

[DavidJAX]

I would be really concerned in the litigious society we're living in that if I hurt someone because I'm riding anything with a "Stop Ride" I would not come out okay on that one.

[smiller]

Since we're so worried about the courts and getting sued and all, how does anyone know to a legal certainty that a given rider is even aware of the recall? Is BMW sending notices via certified mail or something?