CHP switching to Harley Davidson

[upflying]

I think this is the first time CHP has ridden HD in the last 20 years. Last CHP HD's were the '91 FXRTP. After that was the Kawasaki KZ1000P, '98-'01 BMW R1100RT-P, '02-'04 BMW R1150RTP, '07-08 BMW R1200RTP, '11-12 Kawasaki C14 and now back to HD FLHP.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/chp-switching-harley-davidson-motorcycles/nZ53H/

[Ponch]

I think this is the first time CHP has ridden HD in the last 20 years. Last CHP HD's were the '91 FXRTP. After that was the Kawasaki KZ1000P, '98-'01 BMW R1100RT-P, '02-'04 BMW R1150RTP, '07-08 BMW R1200RTP, '11-12 Kawasaki C14 and now back to HD FLHP.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/chp-switching-harley-davidson-motorcycles/nZ53H/

 

I am surprised they passed on the Honda or the Victory. I would think either would be better for highway patrol than the HD.

[upflying]

more history here..

http://www.policemag.com/channel/vehicles/news/2010/09/27/chp-will-replace-motor-fleet-with-kawasaki-s-concours-14.aspx

[upflying]

I think this is the first time CHP has ridden HD in the last 20 years. Last CHP HD's were the '91 FXRTP. After that was the Kawasaki KZ1000P, '98-'01 BMW R1100RT-P, '02-'04 BMW R1150RTP, '07-08 BMW R1200RTP, '11-12 Kawasaki C14 and now back to HD FLHP.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/chp-switching-harley-davidson-motorcycles/nZ53H/

 

I am surprised they passed on the Honda or the Victory. I would think either would be better for highway patrol than the HD.

While the CHP bid process should be objective there has been politics and corruption involved in MC choices in the past. Bid specs are also written in such a way that only one manufacturer can qualify.

[Ponch]

I think this is the first time CHP has ridden HD in the last 20 years. Last CHP HD's were the '91 FXRTP. After that was the Kawasaki KZ1000P, '98-'01 BMW R1100RT-P, '02-'04 BMW R1150RTP, '07-08 BMW R1200RTP, '11-12 Kawasaki C14 and now back to HD FLHP.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/chp-switching-harley-davidson-motorcycles/nZ53H/

 

I am surprised they passed on the Honda or the Victory. I would think either would be better for highway patrol than the HD.

While the CHP bid process should be objective there has been politics and corruption involved in MC choices in the past. Bid specs are also written in such a way that only one manufacturer can qualify.

 

Doesn't surprise me. Make a decision then make it right.

[SPX]

I think this is the first time CHP has ridden HD in the last 20 years. Last CHP HD's were the '91 FXRTP. After that was the Kawasaki KZ1000P, '98-'01 BMW R1100RT-P, '02-'04 BMW R1150RTP, '07-08 BMW R1200RTP, '11-12 Kawasaki C14 and now back to HD FLHP.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/chp-switching-harley-davidson-motorcycles/nZ53H/

 

I am surprised they passed on the Honda or the Victory. I would think either would be better for highway patrol than the HD.

 

Honda and Victory didn't bid. They don't meet the spec that the state has set.

[Ponch]

I think this is the first time CHP has ridden HD in the last 20 years. Last CHP HD's were the '91 FXRTP. After that was the Kawasaki KZ1000P, '98-'01 BMW R1100RT-P, '02-'04 BMW R1150RTP, '07-08 BMW R1200RTP, '11-12 Kawasaki C14 and now back to HD FLHP.

http://www.ktvu.com/news/news/local/chp-switching-harley-davidson-motorcycles/nZ53H/

 

I am surprised they passed on the Honda or the Victory. I would think either would be better for highway patrol than the HD.

 

Honda and Victory didn't bid. They don't meet the spec that the state has set.

For the life of me, I can't imagine any other authority bike wouldn't meet the criteria and a HD would. Was it that it had to weigh 800lbs?

[Bud]

Used Connies for sale.

[Ponch]

RT-P's too.

[SPX]

Used Connies for sale.

 

Not really. All the motorcycles will be kept until they're mileaged out, OR no longer economical to repair, and at that point, the trooper is issued a Harley

[Ponch]

Used Connies for sale.

 

Not really. All the motorcycles will be kept until they're mileaged out, OR no longer economical to repair, and at that point, the trooper is issued a Harley

 

I could some cops thinking about keeping their bikes going no matter what.

[SWB]

Let's see now, they're paying $28,381 per unit for the HD's, but that includes a 3 year, 60K mile warranty.

 

The last BMW RT-P's (2008) were $23,887 per unit, presumably with a 36K mile warranty. The Kawasaki Concours 14 ABS-P (2010) were $16,977, and the warranty isn't mentioned (I'd assume 36K miles, but for all we know the low price might have come with a 12K mile warranty, or none at all).

 

We're obviously missing information about the competing bids for 2013/2014, but I can't believe that TCO for the HD's are less than BOTH the BMW and Kawa's, unless the Kawa's were just absolute dogs for maintenance. Or, unless both the BMW's and Kawa price per unit spiked.

 

Something doesn't add up here. Oh, I forgot about California's sterling reputation for corrupt contracting procedures; depending on who got paid off, that would explain the HD purchase.

 

Do you guys really think that the $28K HD purchase price and maintenance (plus time lost while the machines are down) will be a lower TCO than the Kawa's or BMWs? Really? I'm not dissing HD because I like the BMW's, but I just can't imaging that the quality of HD's have improved to the point where they're better than BMW's or the Kawa's.

 

This will be interesting. Unless there's a lawsuit, I'm not sure that the public will ever know if the HD costs the state more or there are increased injuries on the HD's.

 

- Scott

 

 

[SWB]

more history here..

http://www.policemag.com/channel/vehicles/news/2010/09/27/chp-will-replace-motor-fleet-with-kawasaki-s-concours-14.aspx

 

Have you heard of any feedback on the Kawa's, both for safety/performance, officer's attitudes towards riding them, or the TCO of the bikes? Seems like the CHP has tried the Kawasaki's for two years, and now their dumping them.

[upflying]

more history here..

http://www.policemag.com/channel/vehicles/news/2010/09/27/chp-will-replace-motor-fleet-with-kawasaki-s-concours-14.aspx

 

Have you heard of any feedback on the Kawa's, both for safety/performance, officer's attitudes towards riding them, or the TCO of the bikes? Seems like the CHP has tried the Kawasaki's for two years, and now their dumping them.

 

As I understand it, the Idaho Kawasaki dealer (Beuadry?) that did the Connie LEO conversions is out of business. No more C14's since none come from the factory as a police bike.

Feedback I hear is CHP loves the Connie.

[Ponch]

Kawasaki doesn't limit the mileage on their warranties. I think the C14 comes with 3 years unlimited miles. Victory is 5 years.

[Ponch]

I see they are really going for it: http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_U...ce-Brochure.pdf

 

I saw Motorcycle Cruiser promoting this on FB. Something they said they'd never do...Journalism is basically PR.

[Red]

Maybe CHP knows something about the water pumpers we don't?

[Ponch]

Maybe CHP knows something about the water pumpers we don't?

 

I haven't heard that water pumps are a problem on STs and C14. K1600s yeah. I wonder how the new wasser boxers are doing in that regard?

[SWB]

more history here..

http://www.policemag.com/channel/vehicles/news/2010/09/27/chp-will-replace-motor-fleet-with-kawasaki-s-concours-14.aspx

 

Have you heard of any feedback on the Kawa's, both for safety/performance, officer's attitudes towards riding them, or the TCO of the bikes? Seems like the CHP has tried the Kawasaki's for two years, and now their dumping them.

 

As I understand it, the Idaho Kawasaki dealer (Beuadry?) that did the Connie LEO conversions is out of business. No more C14's since none come from the factory as a police bike.

Feedback I hear is CHP loves the Connie.

 

Well, that's interesting. Maybe their bid for the Connie conversions didn't support the work. One would thing a very large order like that would make a company, not break a company. Seems like something didn't go right in the translation from concept to delivery.

 

I wonder if Kawasaki even put in a bid this time around, i.e. who'd have done the police conversion if the only dealer that did it in the past went belly up. Maybe the choices this time around were Harley or a really high priced German RT-P (maybe $30K per unit?).

[Ponch]

more history here..

http://www.policemag.com/channel/vehicles/news/2010/09/27/chp-will-replace-motor-fleet-with-kawasaki-s-concours-14.aspx

 

Have you heard of any feedback on the Kawa's, both for safety/performance, officer's attitudes towards riding them, or the TCO of the bikes? Seems like the CHP has tried the Kawasaki's for two years, and now their dumping them.

 

As I understand it, the Idaho Kawasaki dealer (Beuadry?) that did the Connie LEO conversions is out of business. No more C14's since none come from the factory as a police bike.

Feedback I hear is CHP loves the Connie.

 

Well, that's interesting. Maybe their bid for the Connie conversions didn't support the work. One would thing a very large order like that would make a company, not break a company. Seems like something didn't go right in the translation from concept to delivery.

 

I wonder if Kawasaki even put in a bid this time around, i.e. who'd have done the police conversion if the only dealer that did it in the past went belly up. Maybe the choices this time around were Harley or a really high priced German RT-P (maybe $30K per unit?).

 

The issue was electrical and Kawasaki covered it, but I have to wonder what the capacity of the C14s electrical system is. The RT has a 60 amp alternator and 2 batteries. The others don't.

[upflying]

Interesting to see the HD's are not stock and will have a Screaming Eagle 255 cam installation. That could be part of the reason for the high cost of the bikes.

That cam isn't legal to install in the bikes in Ca but I surmise CHP must have an exemption from CARB. (yeah right)

http://www.policemag.com/blog/vehicles/story/2013/08/chp-adopts-harley-davidson-for-enforcement.aspx

[Ponch]

Interesting to see the HD's are not stock and will have a Screaming Eagle 255 cam installation. That could be part of the reason for the high cost of the bikes.

That cam isn't legal to install in the bikes in Ca but I surmise CHP must have an exemption from CARB. (yeah right)

http://www.policemag.com/blog/vehicles/story/2013/08/chp-adopts-harley-davidson-for-enforcement.aspx

 

It's interesting that they have to modify the HDs.

[LarryM]

The California bid specs can be seen at this link.

 

https://www.bidsync.com/DPXViewer/IFB_DGS_1211-003_Attachment_3_-_Specification.pdf?ac=auction&auc=1930784&rndid=1423829&docid=5371861

 

I don't see anything overboard in the spec.

 

BMW and Honda did not bid.

 

Kawi does not make a factory authority motor. The factory withdrew any support. I gather they had a problem with the main 30 amp elec breaker which could cause it to trip at inopportune times.

 

The HD price breaks down into something approximating this.

Basic police model = $15,786

Add'l police spec equipment = $7,000

Extended 3 yr/60,000 mile warranty = $4,920.

[upflying]

Any differences in wording from the earlier bid that creates a bias to a particular make?

http://www.wb6nvh.com/cyclerad/Cyclebid.pdf

[LarryM]

Well, they did limit the top speed to 125 MPH.

 

Other changes ....

ABS disconnects when driving at 15 mph.

Break away windshield.

Seat with lumbar support.

Kickstand and parking on a slope.

Put kickstand down without looking for it.

 

Lots of radio and electronics testing deleted.

 

One thing I've heard from some officers is that the Kawi ABS is better than the R1200RT-P. And the RT is better than the older HDs. I do like the RT ABS.

 

However I have been told that the 2013 HD ABS is much improved over the 2011 HD ABS. I have not yet ridden a 2013 HD so I cannot vouch for that.

[Ponch]

Sounds like they tailored the bid for HD.

[Dennis Andress]

Well that bites. I guess now when I say to a motor officer "Glad you guys get the slow ones." it'll be taken as an insult.

[cris nitro]

Well that bites. I guess now when I say to a motor officer "Glad you guys get the slow ones." it'll be taken as an insult.

 

That's funny.

[SWB]

The California bid specs can be seen at this link.

 

https://www.bidsync.com/DPXViewer/IFB_DGS_1211-003_Attachment_3_-_Specification.pdf?ac=auction&auc=1930784&rndid=1423829&docid=5371861

 

I don't see anything overboard in the spec.

 

BMW and Honda did not bid.

 

Kawi does not make a factory authority motor. The factory withdrew any support. I gather they had a problem with the main 30 amp elec breaker which could cause it to trip at inopportune times.

 

The HD price breaks down into something approximating this.

Basic police model = $15,786

Add'l police spec equipment = $7,000

Extended 3 yr/60,000 mile warranty = $4,920.

 

If HD was the only bidder, then I guess that this was in effect, a straight up order sole-sourced to a single vendor. When the government puts out a RFP and receives a single bid, the market is screaming "this specification is nuts", or something to that effect. In an open market, everybody and his brother wants in on the opportunity for a large order. If the order is spec'd to a single vendor, or spec'd in such a way that only one vendor could fill the order or make a profit filling the order, then it's essentially a sole source contract. Given these facts, it's unlikely that this is the best police bike available to the CHP, for the money spent. It's a political purchase.

 

Or, the other possibility (as in my local county of San Diego, which sues its vendors on EVERY large contract), vendors have been burned by the government agency so many times, they simply want nothing more to do with that agency's business.

 

Hope the CHP officers enjoy (and survive) their new ride.

 

- Scott

[SWB]

The issue was electrical and Kawasaki covered it, but I have to wonder what the capacity of the C14s electrical system is. The RT has a 60 amp alternator and 2 batteries. The others don't.

... and ...

Kawi does not make a factory authority motor. The factory withdrew any support. I gather they had a problem with the main 30 amp elec breaker which could cause it to trip at inopportune times.

 

I guess Kawasaki really didn't like what the stateside dealer was doing with the police conversions. One would have thought that they'd have supported the dealer's effort by beefing up the electrical system, as it's certainly within their technical ability to do so. That, or legal problems with the orders threatened to entangle the parent company. I can see why that dealer (apparently) went bankrupt, if the bikes were failing and they could not get support from Kawasaki to fix the core electrical issue.

 

Kawasaki must "really" not want to be in the authority motorcycle market. But what of Honda and BMW? Are the abandoning that market too?

 

Maybe California really had no other options than HD, i.e. no other motorcycle manufacturers are pursuing the market? I see BMW still offering bikes, and that there are Yamaha's in the UK (wonder if those are conversions or direct from Yamaha)? It's all interesting to me, as I'd think that a company in the business of manufacturing street motorcycles would be putting bids in every place a large RFP is offered.

[SWB]

One more follow-up on the Kawasaki C14 issue. The link from Bob (upflying) included some interesting comments (though anyone can post anything on the internet, which may or may not be true). Some indicate that Beaudry lost the CHP contract for non-performance and went under simply because Kawasaki didn't deliver the bikes to Beaudry. The electrical issue was secondary, and in the case of half of the six bikes where problems were realized, probably caused by incorrect installations by the department.

 

Seems like there's lots of drama within Kawasaki. To be honest, if this stuff is half true, it'd spin me around if I were interested in a Concours (which I had been seriously considering as a follow on to my R1200RT, i.e. I nearly bought one in 2011). You know how we all rag on BMW for the quirks and a few mechanical shortcomings with the RT's. In this case, BMW looks golden compared with Kawasaki, and I've really liked Kawasaki (dirt) bikes and other products in the past. It's all very - interesting.

[SWB]

Last follow-up to my follow-up's, only cause if found this interesting as well. Search on that Kawa motor link down to the commment by "Tom @ 10/25/2012 5:28 PM", who describes what he believes the Kawa's problem was, and a simple solution for it. It rings true to me remembering how the BMW RT-P operates, and the problems with the BMW ABS brakes faulting at startup due to the amps required to start the bike, power the ABS, and charge the 1st and 2nd batteries.

 

I also found a comment by a motor officer hilarious complaining of BMW reliability, of multiple clutch jobs required on his prior BMW, compared to his (wet clutch) Connie. Kind of like saying, "..well, on my fully equipped BMW RT-P on training wheels, I blew out my clutches regularly ..".

[SPX]

Kawasaki Authority Sales stopped selling authority bikes (civilian models planned for conversion) due to the electrical anomaly.

 

Beaudry motors went out of business, not because of the above, but because of an inter-family dispute amongst the Beaudry brothers, which led to non-performance of the CHP contract.

 

Other agencies latch onto the CHP contract, so most likely, we will see other agencies in California moving the HD as well.

[fourteenfour]

 

Do you guys really think that the $28K HD purchase price and maintenance (plus time lost while the machines are down) will be a lower TCO than the Kawa's or BMWs? Really? I'm not dissing HD because I like the BMW's, but I just can't imaging that the quality of HD's have improved to the point where they're better than BMW's or the Kawa's.

 

Over on the HD forums the guys are really taking to the new Rushmore bikes. From larger forks, integrated ABS, and better electronics, many have openly stated that these bikes finally compete with if not better most of the competition. I think they even went the canbus route, woe is them!

 

As far as HD being the only bidder, it may be that BMW thinks they will need all their production for the new water cooled twins for retail sales.

 

[Stan Walker]

At least one place on the web indicated that the request for bid specification was changed late in the game. BMW asked for an extension to recalculate their bid, but said time extension wasn't granted.

 

Stan

[MikeB60]

Sold my 2010 Harley a while back and bought a 2014 Road King last weekend. The Road King does not have the watercooled engine but has all of the other updates. Mine has a cartridge front fork and they finally got rid of those awful air shocks as well. Much better ride and better handling as well. Still has clearance issues. Brakes have a much better feel, finally a Harley that has decent brakes. I also have the 110' engine and that engine needs to be on all of the touring models. Overall a much better motorcycle.

 

Even with the updates, the Harley still does not compare with the RT from a performance standpoint. If I had to spend 8 hours on a motorcycle, the RT would be my choice.

[LarryM]

I would like to see a survey of motor officer's preferences. What features would they like in a motor? Prioritized of course.

 

I suspect comfort would rank right up on top. Handling and braking next. After those would be acceleration, wind and weather protection, ergonomics, top speed, etc.

 

Has anyone ever seen such a survey?

 

It seems motor purchases are a top down decision with little input from the officers who ride.

[upflying]

I've ridden both. HD is a better city enforcement bike, BMW is a better highway bike.

And you are correct, lieutenant/captain/chief bean counter bureaucrats do not care what the motor officers would prefer to ride.

[SWB]

And you are correct, lieutenant/captain/chief bean counter bureaucrats do not care what the motor officers would prefer to ride.

 

Thinking that Bob is hiding his true feelings here.

[longjohn]

At least one place on the web indicated that the request for bid specification was changed late in the game. BMW asked for an extension to recalculate their bid, but said time extension wasn't granted.

 

Stan

Yep, I saw that too.

[motorman587]

I've ridden both. HD is a better city enforcement bike, BMW is a better highway bike.

And you are correct, lieutenant/captain/chief bean counter bureaucrats do not care what the motor officers would prefer to ride.

 

What makes you think iHD would be a better city motorcycle? I hated the HD for city use, hot, vibration, performance, no electrical windshield, etc....... I loved the 10 years I rode the BMW and hated the 5 years on the HD..........

[upflying]

I've ridden both. HD is a better city enforcement bike, BMW is a better highway bike.

And you are correct, lieutenant/captain/chief bean counter bureaucrats do not care what the motor officers would prefer to ride.

 

What makes you think iHD would be a better city motorcycle? I hated the HD for city use, hot, vibration, performance, no electrical windshield, etc....... I loved the 10 years I rode the BMW and hated the 5 years on the HD..........

 

Hate the dry clutch and clunky transmission. Your turn.

[Ponch]

I've ridden both. HD is a better city enforcement bike, BMW is a better highway bike.

And you are correct, lieutenant/captain/chief bean counter bureaucrats do not care what the motor officers would prefer to ride.

 

What makes you think iHD would be a better city motorcycle? I hated the HD for city use, hot, vibration, performance, no electrical windshield, etc....... I loved the 10 years I rode the BMW and hated the 5 years on the HD..........

 

Hate the dry clutch and clunky transmission. Your turn.

 

Doesn't the RT-P have different gearing either in the transmission or the FD? That would make low speed better...Try the civilian one if you think the P is tough. I've ridden an Ultra and it was easier to handle than my RT at low speed than my RT. Get up and go, stopping and hitting the ton and better, the RT is a better ride.

[longjohn]

Doesn't the RT-P have different gearing either in the transmission or the FD? That would make low speed better...Try the civilian one if you think the P is tough. I've ridden an Ultra and it was easier to handle than my RT at low speed than my RT. Get up and go, stopping and hitting the ton and better, the RT is a better ride.

 

The following list of FD ratios is copied from a summary over on ADVrider:

 

2.62 - R1200RT (all years), R1200ST

2.75 - R1200R, R1200S, R1200RTP, HP2-Sport

2.82 - R1200GS/GSA (2006/07 models), HP2-Enduro/Megamoto

2.91 - R1200GS/GSA (2008-on)

3.00 - R900RT/RTP

 

As far as I know, all hexhead/camhead transmissions have the same internal ratios.

 

The above came from here: http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=838364

[BailyD]

Isn't there a BIG initial cost difference between the BMW and H.D??

I know back in 07 our BMW cost $21,500 with lights and a few extras. I know the H.D. cost about $14,000 before lights, but HD lights are VERY expensive if you purchase it from the dealer. You can get your own MUCH cheaper.

[upflying]

Isn't there a BIG initial cost difference between the BMW and H.D??

I know back in 07 our BMW cost $21,500 with lights and a few extras. I know the H.D. cost about $14,000 before lights, but HD lights are VERY expensive if you purchase it from the dealer. You can get your own MUCH cheaper.

I heard that HD was selling bikes at a loss (an anti-trust violation?) just to get the bid contract. My '01 FLHPi was $12,600..brand new.

HD dealers make up for the loss in the service department.

P models come with a siren and incandescent emergency lights but nothing else.

[BailyD]

Isn't there a BIG initial cost difference between the BMW and H.D??

I know back in 07 our BMW cost $21,500 with lights and a few extras. I know the H.D. cost about $14,000 before lights, but HD lights are VERY expensive if you purchase it from the dealer. You can get your own MUCH cheaper.

I heard that HD was selling bikes at a loss (an anti-trust violation?) just to get the bid contract. My '01 FLHPi was $12,600..brand new.

HD dealers make up for the loss in the service department.

P models come with a siren and incandescent emergency lights but nothing else.

 

I guess the guys at HD know the bean counters decide which bikes to ride and as such price their bikes accordingly. I know one was bought locally for around $13,700 (2009) with ABS. You can buy a heck of set up of lights/siren for $7,800!! (difference between BMW fully lite vs. H.D.)

[LarryM]

A local PD bought 12 basic Harley black and white police motorcycles. They were delivered June 1. I understand they paid approximately $15,800 for each motorcycle. I do not know how the decals and lettering were handled.

[BailyD]

A local PD bought 12 basic Harley black and white police motorcycles. They were delivered June 1. I understand they paid approximately $15,800 for each motorcycle. I do not know how the decals and lettering were handled.

 

was that with or without lights/siren/rear box?? If it included items listed then it is much, much cheaper than the BMW.

[LarryM]

I failed to ask the officer. I didn't even look for the siren or top pack. I think it had the red and blue lights in front.

 

Aside from the cost I did ask if the motorcycle's clutch had been adjusted for 'police riding'. The officer said no. It was set as it came from the factory.

 

I do recall that the officer had a half helmet with the radio ear piece. I also wear a half helmet so that stuck in my mind.

 

I don't know why they picked HD. It is a city department. They don't have highways to patrol.