Sad news from the East Coast

[AdventurePoser]

In my opinion the big difference is how we medicate children at a young age. If a kid fidgets too much in class or blurts out they get ritalin or some other drug crammed down their gullet. Depressed or suicidal?

 

With all due respect, that's not exactly how it works...

 

 

[philbytx]

It doesn't? So how DOES it work then......enquiring minds!

[Bud]

All Are Responsible

 

“Few are guilty, but all are responsible” is the way Abraham Joshua Heschel formulated a Jewish response to evil. He distinguished between guilt, a term that applies specifically to the perpetrators of crime and sin; and responsibility, “the capability of being called upon to answer, or to make amends, to someone for something, without necessarily being directly connected with or involved in a criminal act.”

 

Here we have an individual who committed a crime, actions that society has determined to be contrary to our sense of law and codified as such, and sin, actions which violate our moral/religious tenants.

 

In my mind, to consider the perpetrator evil I would have to believe that he was a functioning, rational being who: 1.was in touch with reality and not suffering from mental illness and 2. could therefore could understood the consequences of his actions and acted without regards to the welfare of others.

 

The other half is the responsibility that we collectively have as members of a society.

 

I'm sure we could (and might) have hundreds of responses to this issue. And it might prove to be both therapeutic and enlightening. Reasonable people can differ and do so in a respectful manner, mindful that we sometimes can, and should change our minds.

 

At this point, trying to make sense out of a senseless act is very difficult. Our human sense of fairness demands that we find someone to blame. We also yearn for the "reason" someone would do such a horrible thing.

 

The only response that makes sense to me is that I continually tell those I love how I feel, so that when the time comes that I can no longer do so, they will never have to doubt.

 

So we continue to hold all affected by Friday's events in our thoughts and prayers as they grieve for their losses.

 

PS My daughter-in-law teaches 2nd grade and her whole class would be gone if it had happened in her classroom. A very sobering thought for me.

[upflying]

What if lanza told his psychologist, spiritual advisor or attorney, "I feel homicidal today, I feel the need to kill someone". Obviously the words used may not be that direct but what if the nuances were more subtle?

Would or could any of these three people legally tell anyone else what lanza confided in them?

Could future lanza's be thwarted if laws regarding confidential information be shared.

I realize lanza was a gifted nerd. But someone, somewhere must have seen the red flags of this schizophrenic sociopathic psychopath.

I'm sure mom saw it but she saw her son through rose colored glasses.

(lower case L intentional)

 

What if...

 

None of this is in the reportage to date. Lanza was a loner to an extreme; perhaps Asperger's. Lots of kids in school were loners at one time, then grew out of it after leaving the schooling environment.

 

Do we want to have all the loners identified by psychs and clergy interviewed by the police? Way too much subjectivity on the part of all involved for my tastes. This really is approaching Minority Report ideology.

 

Parents reporting their children as a 'possible' psychopath? Come on, now.

 

The head of School District security noted that Lanza was an extreme loner, yet did nothing, apparently. Do we hold him accountable? How?

 

We already have laws (I presume) that prohibit mental health patients from purchasing firearms, but do the parents have the ability to purchase and keep firearms in their house in your scenario?

Ok, I read up a little about Aspergers and sure enough violence is one of the symptoms. That's it then, it's not lanza's fault he has Aspergers and did not know how to act responsibly.

But if he has Aspergers, a mental health professional was definitely treating him.

Who the doctor is along with reviewing lanza's medical records will provide a lot of answers in the coming days and weeks on the level of lanza's mania.

If the doctor had some warning that lanza had a potential for violence, I pity the poor doctor for the bloodshed he could have prevented.

 

[AdventurePoser]

It doesn't? So how DOES it work then......enquiring minds!

 

Medicine isn't "crammed down gullets," and quite often meds, in conjunction with other psych/ed strategies make significant improvements in the quality of life of kids.

 

I'm not a proponent of medicine first, but it does have its place-just another arrow in the quiver, Phil.

 

I personally believe that we must make a real effort to identify and treat mental illness in our children. It is a travesty that there seems to be enough money for wars, and to pay professional athletes millions to play child's games, but not enough to afford school psychologists, training for classroom teachers, and other interventions which would lower the potential for these types of catastrophic events. And this is only the tip of the iceberg; there is so much we could do.

 

As a parent, teacher, and elementary school principal, I grieve for the loss of life and for lives that are forever changed by such horrific events, but until we as a society get behind the concept of making our sick well, and we get over our love affair with guns and violence, I doubt things will change much.

 

Just my $.02

[Shaman97]

But if he has Aspergers, a mental health professional was definitely treating him.

Can you please cite your source? Many people go untreated for a myriad of conditions after diagnosis - diabetes, COPD, addictions - why are you surmising he is currently being treated for this condition? And if he were, there hasn't been any record from law enforcement that he had shown violent tendencies.

 

'Potential for violence'? This could apply to a person that drinks as easily as any other mental disorder. Do we keep this type of person separated from firearms, too?

 

If the doctor had some warning that lanza had a potential for violence, I pity the poor doctor for the bloodshed he could have prevented.

 

Actually, I think the following guy has much more responsibility (if anyone has):

 

Richard Novia, the school district's head of security until 2008, who also served as adviser for the high school technology club, of which Lanza was a member, said he clearly "had some disabilities."

 

"If that boy would've burned himself, he would not have known it or felt it physically," Novia said in a phone interview. "It was my job to pay close attention to that."

 

[AdventurePoser]

Please read "The Curious Incident of the dog in the NIght Time," by Mark Haddon.

 

It's a short read, a novel about a brilliant boy who has no capacity for understanding human emotions. He goes on a quest to find the murderer of his neighbors dog.

 

Its an amazing story and you won't be able to put it down...and you'll learn what Aspergers looks like.

 

I've read comments about the shooter having Aspergers. Let's make sure we don't vilify kids with this syndrome. Fortunately, educators and health care professionals are learning more about this illness and it is getting easier to identify signs and symptoms earlier in the game. The next step is to enlist parent support for the therapies that may be necessary. Often, parents don't want their children "labelled." With great teachers, support from outside agencies, and parental support, much can be done for the kids....

[Shaman97]

Steve,

 

Good points. These issues are best left to medical professionals and the children's parents. Teachers are a key to being involved in this 'team effort'. Not law enforcement.

[upflying]

But if he has Aspergers, a mental health professional was definitely treating him.

Can you please cite your source? Many people go untreated for a myriad of conditions after diagnosis - diabetes, COPD, addictions - why are you surmising he is currently being treated for this condition? And if he were, there hasn't been any record from law enforcement that he had shown violent tendencies.

 

 

You are the source. First I heard of the Aspergers connection is when you mentioned it.

If lnaza has Aspergers, I assume a mental health professional diagnosed it. His mom doesn't sound dysfunctional so again I assume she was getting help for him, if he had Aspergers.

And again, law enforcement would not know about his violent tendencies, if any, since the mental health professionals, if any, would not legally be able to tell law enforcement about it.

[ratfink]

I personally believe that we must make a real effort to identify and treat mental illness in our children. It is a travesty that there seems to be enough money for wars, and to pay professional athletes millions to play child's games, but not enough to afford school psychologists, training for classroom teachers, and other interventions which would lower the potential for these types of catastrophic events. And this is only the tip of the iceberg; there is so much we could do.

 

I couldn't agree with you more, well said, Thank You for expressing thoughts that are similar to my own.

 

Children cannot consent to their treatment, we deem them incapable of consent and they are often medicated despite the objection of one parent. For all we know kids that improve, might have anyway with natural maturation and brain development. Time is often more effective than artificial biochemical rewiring. The next time you hear an ad for a psychoactive drug on TV listen carefully to the known side effects or better yet go to website and read the full disclosure. Then consider that we know very little about the long term effects they will have on an individual that is treated at a young age. I will agree that some drugs will have beneficial short term effect but long term they may be devastating. They are a common denominator in several school shootings.

 

Prescriptions are handed out like candy because we're too lazy or too impatient to do otherwise. I believe we are seeing the results of our shortchanging these kids with a quick fix, magic pill or black magic pill as the case may be.

[Shaman97]

But if he has Aspergers, a mental health professional was definitely treating him.

Can you please cite your source? Many people go untreated for a myriad of conditions after diagnosis - diabetes, COPD, addictions - why are you surmising he is currently being treated for this condition? And if he were, there hasn't been any record from law enforcement that he had shown violent tendencies.

 

 

You are the source. First I heard of the Aspergers connection is when you mentioned it.

If lnaza has Aspergers, I assume a mental health professional diagnosed it. His mom doesn't sound dysfunctional so again I assume she was getting help for him, if he had Aspergers.

And again, law enforcement would not know about his violent tendencies, if any, since the mental health professionals, if any, would not legally be able to tell law enforcement about it.

 

I was referring to the "...a mental health professional was definitely treating him." portion. A diagnosis is not the same as treating.

 

And again, law enforcement would not know about his violent tendencies, if any, since the mental health professionals, if any, would not legally be able to tell law enforcement about it.

 

As it should be. Your original post wants to dissolve this physician/psychologist/clergy/attorney-client priviledge.

 

But I'll ask this a third time: If a person is diagnosed with a mental disorder, then should any persons living with that person not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms in their home? If so, then this horrible incident would likely have been averted, no?

[SuperG]

But I'll ask this a third time: If a person is diagnosed with a mental disorder, then should any persons living with that person not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms in their home? If so, then this horrible incident would likely have been averted, no?

 

you may want to read this article. it seems the mom may have had something to do with it as well. ( if the article below is true.

Mother of Sandy Hook gunman Adam Lanza 'was a gun obsessive living in fear of society's collapse'

 

"The mother of Adam Lanza (who slaughtered 20 US schoolchildren and seven adults) was a gun-hoarding survivalist who was stockpiling weapons in preparation for an economic collapse, it has emerged.

 

Her sister-in-law Marsha Lanza told reporters at her Illinois home that her gun-obsessed relative was part of the ‘prepper’ movement that fears an economic collapse will lead to a breakdown in society.

 

“She prepared for the worst,” Ms Lanza said.

 

“Last time we visited her in person, we talked about prepping — are you ready for what could happen down the line, when the economy collapses?”

 

Nancy Lanza (52) had five registered firearms, had begun stockpiling food and taught Adam how to shoot. He is believed to have used three of her guns — a Bushmaster .223-calibre, and two handguns, a Glock 10 mm and a Sig Sauer 9mm — in the school massacre after he shot her dead in bed."

 

 

 

 

 

[Rocer]

I've just started reading several 'articles' about the link between the increase in violent behavoirs and certain psychiatric drugs. I have no idea of the credibility of the articles or such claims at this time, but it seems furtile ground for study that might yield results (as opposed to unceasing red herring debates that go nowhere).

 

Added: The reason I say red herring is because the tool used to commit murder isn't (nor has it ever been) the issue. Though it makes a powerful distraction. The worst case of mass murder didn't involve guns.

 

Craig, of course "the tool" is part of the issue. Surely, as part of a solution, we need to put controls on the finger that we allow on the trigger. Your example of explosives as one of these tools is being dealt with especially after the Oklahoma bombing as now sale of quantities of agricultural ammonium nitrate is monitored. THIS TIME these "debates that go nowhere" need to be resolved. It will only be an endless debate if we allow it to be.

 

[David13]

Ah. You were distracted by the powerful distraction. That's how powerful it is.

dc

[David13]

But I'll ask this a third time: If a person is diagnosed with a mental disorder, then should any persons living with that person not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms in their home? If so, then this horrible incident would likely have been averted, no?

 

How so? You are telling me there is only one source in the entire whole wide world for this guy to obtain a gun? Or that he of necessity can only use a gun and nothing whatsoever else?

dc

[Dave McReynolds]

But I'll ask this a third time: If a person is diagnosed with a mental disorder, then should any persons living with that person not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms in their home? If so, then this horrible incident would likely have been averted, no?

 

To some degree, this seems to already be happening. I am trustee for the incompetent son of an old friend. The son had been in and out of the county mental facility many times, and has rages and destroys things but has never hurt anyone. He has screamed at the top of his lungs inches from the end of my nose, but he doesn't want to go to jail, and I truly believe he doesn't want to physically hurt anyone.

 

While his father was still alive, but incapacitated with a stroke, the son moved back home. The neighbors knew that my friend had a lot of guns in the house, and were afraid, so one of them called the cops. The cops showed up about midnight one night to haul away the guns. All the guns were locked in a safe, and I was the only one who knew the combination, so one of the cops called me. He said that I could either come down right then and remove all the guns from the house, or he would have the police locksmith open the safe and the police would take all the guns. So I went down there and loaded all the guns in the back seat of my car. As I was getting ready to drive off, I half-kiddingly said that I hoped I didn't get stopped for a ticket on the way home. He agreed that that wouldn't look too good, and gave me his card to show another officer if I was stopped, and said "drive safe!"

 

All in all, it seemed to be a pretty good resolution to the problem. OTOH, Sacramento is a fairly small town, and both my friend and I were well-known with good reputations. I'm not sure the cops would have been so accommodating in other circumstances.

 

Compare it with other measures we take to protect children. When I had my children, the recommendation for protecting children was to have them ride in the back seat. Later on, car seats were required for infants. Later on, specially designed car seats were required. Later on, they had to be in the back seat. Later on, they had to be facing backwards in the back seat.

 

How can we be so conscious of child safety in one area of life, and completely ignore it in another?

[upflying]

As it should be. Your original post wants to dissolve this physician/psychologist/clergy/attorney-client priviledge.

 

But I'll ask this a third time: If a person is diagnosed with a mental disorder, then should any persons living with that person not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms in their home? If so, then this horrible incident would likely have been averted, no?

 

No I am not advocating dissolution of privileged communication. But loosening up the laws a bit to report dangerous people and get them involuntarily committed is a step in the right direction .I heard somewhere Catholic priests are now allowed to report certain people during a confessional. Maybe wee need something like that.

No I am not advocating restricting gun purchasing by people who have family members who are mentally ill. But gun laws should require such gun owners to properly secure the weapons when such people are present. Much like current gun laws are when children are present in the home.

The above mentioned UK article suggests lanza was an addicted video gamer. If true, this information may be a significant reason why lanza went berserk. Gaming places the participants into virtual roles that alter reality. The violent gaming culture could be dangerous to the mentally ill who may want to relive virtual world. The "military style vest" lanza was reportedly wearing might suggest the gaming connection.

If gaming is part of the motive for the tragedy, I would hope gaming hardware and software makers take some of the liability for what happened.

[ratfink]

 

http://www.breggin.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=286

 

I think video games and unsecured firearms are fuel and oxygen for a fire that is already raging out of control.

[tallman]

TV Intoxication defense

 

that was 35 years ago.

 

 

Excusing/blaming shifting responsibility won't bring back anyone.

There is no way to prevent something like this.

 

There are different ways to respond to this.

 

If that principal was armed and trained, she may have stopped some of the murders.

As it was, she apparently went after the gunman, with only a stern voice...

 

New federal lunchroom guidelines are ion place becasue we are concerned about student health.

The guidelines are interesting.

 

We regulate what they eat, sugar. salt, condiments, portions size

and protein/starch etc because we are concerned about long term

consequences.

 

My POV is we should also prepare for soemthing like this and if

there are staff willing to be trained to protect the children then they should be able to do so.

[KTM Doug]

I wasn't going to post this but since the talk has gone to a few folks who think a legally trained and weaponized school person might have helped.

 

I received this from a friend who lives near the Clackamas Mall in Oregon. Don't think you will see this on the news as I seldom/never see it reported that a legally carrying person may have had a POSITIVE impact on a potentially lethal situation. Don't know how factual, but this is out there.

 

http://easybakegunclub.com/news/1943/Clackamas-Mall-Shooter-Was-Confonted-By-Concealed-.html

[Selden]

I spent about an hour in the waiting room at the Atlanta VA Medical Center this morning, and not surprisingly, there was a lot of conversation about last Friday. What did surprise me was that everybody I heard said that there was no valid civilian use case for assault rifles and large capacity ammunition clips.

[Selden]

Other societies have similar problems. Ironically, the same day: China school knife attack.

How many were killed in the China school knife attack? Zero.

[Selden]

I just wish the media would leave it alone and quit giving the nutcase the coverage he craved. The more it's publicized as one of the biggest killings in US history the more other nutcases want to up the ante...IMHO

 

We remember the shooter's name and can't recall one of the victim's names.

 

Nobody is forcing you to leave the TV or radio on, or to read stories about this in the printed press, whether paper or internet. The media are in business to make money; if it bleeds, it leads, and that's just the way things are.

 

Even though I have had the TV turned off mostly since last Friday, I can not remember the shooter's name (something Lanza), but I can recall some of the victim's names, such as Jack Pinto, because the media have been publishing their names.

[upflying]

I spent about an hour in the waiting room at the Atlanta VA Medical Center this morning, and not surprisingly, there was a lot of conversation about last Friday. What did surprise me was that everybody I heard said that there was no valid civilian use case for assault rifles and large capacity ammunition clips.

Ca has already banned assault rifles and magazines greater than 10 rounds.

Ca is #4 in the nation for firearm homicides. (2004 stats)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_California

[SuperG]

The idea to arm school staff is simply unfathomable.

 

How would one even begin to establish such tuning, on voluntary basis?

That volunteer would place a huge burden on him or herself at the same time painting himself as initial target. Furthermore initial and afterwards continuous training would be required to stay proficient not only with a firearm but with tactics as well. Schools are usually sizable building one or two volunteers would not make much difference.

[philbytx]

Israel allows teachers to carry weapons.

 

[philbytx]

Should we mention Chicago?

[Selden]

So, if it seems like these dreadful crimes are occurring more frequently, it is really the immediacy and pervasiveness of media coverage that creates the impression. And thanks to state-of-the-art technology, it can feel as though the tragedy happened in your own backyard.[/i]

~30,000 gun fatalities a year; ~5000 of them children, 20 times the rate of any other "developed" nation. During the entire Vietnam war, 47,359 hostile deaths. Where is our national monument to death by gunshot?

[moshe_levy]

Israel allows teachers to carry weapons.

 

Really? Are you REALLY going to go there?

 

-MKL

[ratfink]

Other societies have similar problems. Ironically, the same day: China school knife attack.

How many were killed in the China school knife attack? Zero.

 

This knife attack was fatal: http://www.naturalnews.com/034433_SSRI_drugs_children_murder.html

[upflying]

So, if it seems like these dreadful crimes are occurring more frequently, it is really the immediacy and pervasiveness of media coverage that creates the impression. And thanks to state-of-the-art technology, it can feel as though the tragedy happened in your own backyard.[/i]

~30,000 gun fatalities a year; ~5000 of them children, 20 times the rate of any other "developed" nation. During the entire Vietnam war, 47,359 hostile deaths. Where is our national monument to death by gunshot?

Crime scene tape is already called our national gunshot monument.

[Selden]

Israel allows teachers to carry weapons.

I can't let that one pass. Source: Despite militarized society, Israel has strict gun laws.

 

Excerpts:

However, once those soldiers finish their service two or three years later, they are subject to civilian gun control regulations that are much stricter than American laws....

 

In Israel, assault rifles are banned except for special circumstances, such as communal self-defense in areas deemed to be a security risk. And while political violence in Israel is all too common and gun violence is a growing problem, random shootings of strangers – like the Aurora massacre -- are virtually unheard-of here.

 

Unlike in the United States, where the right to bear arms is guaranteed in the Constitution’s Second Amendment, Israel’s department of public security considers gun ownership a privilege, not a right. Gun owners in Israel are limited to owning one pistol, and must undergo extensive mental and physical tests before they can receive a weapon, and gun owners are limited to 50 rounds of ammunition per year.

 

Not all Israelis, however, may own guns. In order to own a pistol, an Israeli must for two years have been either a captain in the army or a former lieutenant colonel. Israelis with an equivalent rank in other security organizations may also own a pistol....

 

In 2008, 143 people in Israel died from firearms, according to the website gunpolicy.org.

If you are arguing for Israeli-style gun laws in the USA, I'm all for it.

 

 

 

[Jake]

It would be a mistake in our understanding to attibute this event to Asperger's Syndrome as a causal factor.

 

My brother has Asperger's, and I've lived with trying to understand it my entire life. Aspergers is not a mental illness from a viewpoint of having treatable cause and effect. There's no known cause, and no known cure, and no medications for it. Interestingly, those with AS are quite self aware, participate actively on forums, seek to understand their world and identify with others. They live with their syndrome, and aren't entirely upset with having it. Many, many go undiagnosed.

 

Mental health matters will be brought to the fore as a result of this tragedy, and that is welcome. AS is not, however, to be blamed.

 

Like Tim, I feel that events like this cannot be foreseen nor prevented. It sure feels like the last straw, however, with the impasse with gun-law reform.

[AdventurePoser]

The idea to arm school staff is simply unfathomable.

 

How would one even begin to establish such tuning, on voluntary basis?

That volunteer would place a huge burden on him or herself at the same time painting himself as initial target. Furthermore initial and afterwards continuous training would be required to stay proficient not only with a firearm but with tactics as well. Schools are usually sizable building one or two volunteers would not make much difference.

 

As a former police officer, AND a school official neither can I. Normally I am not speechless, but in this case I am. Teachers go into the business to teach, love, and nurture kids, not become armed guards.

 

By the way, did you know that school related shootings have decreased over the past few years? Of course, one death is too many, but those who say attacks like this are increasing are wrong. I don't have numbers right in front of me, but the stats are readily available at the CDC and US Department of Education.

 

Until we focus on the CAUSES of violence, not the implements used, we'll never mitigate this problem.

[AdventurePoser]

It would be a mistake in our understanding to attibute this event to Asperger's Syndrome as a causal factor.

 

My brother has Asperger's, and I've lived with trying to understand it my entire life. Aspergers is not a mental illness from a viewpoint of having treatable cause and effect. There's no known cause, and no known cure, and no medications for it. Interestingly, those with AS are quite self aware, participate actively on forums, seek to understand their world and identify with others. They live with their syndrome, and aren't entirely upset with having it. Many, many go undiagnosed.

 

Mental health matters will be brought to the fore as a result of this tragedy, and that is welcome. AS is not, however, to be blamed.

 

Like Tim, I feel that events like this cannot be foreseen nor prevented. It sure feels like the last straw, however, with the impasse with gun-law reform.

 

As best a response about Aspergers Syndrome as I've read. Let's not vilify kids with AS. It is wrong and ignorant to do so.

 

Steve

[pbbeck]

...By the way, did you know that school related shootings have decreased over the past few years? ...

 

Table 1.2. Number of school-associated violent deaths of students, staff, and nonstudents, by type: School years 1992–93 to 2009–10

 

Year - Total

1992–1993 - 57

1993–1994 - 48

1994–1995 - 48

1995–1996 - 53

1996–1997 - 48

1997–1998 - 57

1998–1999 - 47

1999–2000 - 37

2000–2001 - 34

2001–2002 - 36

2002–2003 - 36

2003–2004 - 45

2004–2005 - 52

2005–2006 - 44

2006–2007 - 63

2007–2008 - 47

2008-2009 - 41

2009–2010 - 33

 

 

SOURCE: Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), 1992–2010 School-Associated Violent Deaths Surveillance Study (SAVD), partially funded by the U.S. Department of Education, Office of Safe and Drug-Free Schools, previously unpublished tabulation (July 2011).

 

I don't see the numbers decreasing. They vary, but not in a statistically significant way.

 

[AdventurePoser]

Thanks Paul,

 

Maybe not but still decreasing thru 2010. Again, one death is horrific, but school remains a very safe environment for students. Millions of kids go off to school every day and return home safely.

 

I mention this only because I've seen panic in my parents. You might not believe some of the questions I've been asked. I can't blame the parents for being scared though.

[Alan D]

The idea to arm school staff is simply unfathomable.

 

How would one even begin to establish such tuning, on voluntary basis?

That volunteer would place a huge burden on him or herself at the same time painting himself as initial target. Furthermore initial and afterwards continuous training would be required to stay proficient not only with a firearm but with tactics as well. Schools are usually sizable building one or two volunteers would not make much difference.

 

As a former police officer, AND a school official neither can I. Normally I am not speechless, but in this case I am. Teachers go into the business to teach, love, and nurture kids, not become armed guards.

 

By the way, did you know that school related shootings have decreased over the past few years? Of course, one death is too many, but those who say attacks like this are increasing are wrong. I don't have numbers right in front of me, but the stats are readily available at the CDC and US Department of Education.

 

Until we focus on the CAUSES of violence, not the implements used, we'll never mitigate this problem.

 

 

Here's a story where it worked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

Don't remember it making the evening news for 4 days.

[AdventurePoser]

 

 

Here's a story where it worked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting

Don't remember it making the evening news for 4 days.

 

Alan, I'm glad that AP was able to save lives, but as I understand it, he went out to his truck, grabbed a gun and shot the assailant. Not quite the same as an armed staff...

 

Best,

Steve

[Ken H.]

The idea to arm school staff is simply unfathomable.

Don’t you know that more and more people more and more heavily armed is the solution for everything? A society that is turning on itself preferring to use shooting each other as a way to solve problems is the very model for progress, advancement, success, and prosperity. Just look how well it’s working in the USA.

 

/sarcasm

 

[Ken H.]

If you are arguing for Israeli-style gun laws in the USA, I'm all for it.

Yeah no doubt. You think the NRA howls now...

[Ken H.]

It would be a mistake in our understanding to attibute this event to Asperger's Syndrome as a causal factor.

 

My brother has Asperger's, and I've lived with trying to understand it my entire life. Aspergers is not a mental illness from a viewpoint of having treatable cause and effect. There's no known cause, and no known cure, and no medications for it. Interestingly, those with AS are quite self aware, participate actively on forums, seek to understand their world and identify with others. They live with their syndrome, and aren't entirely upset with having it. Many, many go undiagnosed.

 

Mental health matters will be brought to the fore as a result of this tragedy, and that is welcome. AS is not, however, to be blamed.

 

Like Tim, I feel that events like this cannot be foreseen nor prevented. It sure feels like the last straw, however, with the impasse with gun-law reform.

 

As best a response about Aspergers Syndrome as I've read. Let's not vilify kids with AS. It is wrong and ignorant to do so.

 

Steve

+1

 

I just love how people (and not just here, the media too) are using AS as one big ‘Look! Over there!’ red herring distraction ploy.

 

[Ken H.]

“Few are guilty, but all are responsible” is the way Abraham Joshua Heschel formulated a Jewish response to evil.

A concept that is sadly totally lost on today’s blame-shift society.

[Ken H.]

An Open Letter to My Fellow Canadians

 

Guns in Societies

 

The social fabric of a society has many threads. Some are quite formal and defined, such as laws, rules and regulations. Others far less subtle, the day to day norms that we follow in our behavour, often even subconsciously. All together they compose the social contact that defines a society’s functionality, morals, values and structure. Its existence cannot be denied. And like all contracts, there are benefits gained in exchange for prices paid. The tragedy in Newton, Conn. is very much a part of the social contract of the USA that its citizens, indeed the highest law of that land have entered into. In exchange for their precious gun rights they have agreed to sacrifice some of their children and other members of that society. They will likely deny it fervently, but it is true.

 

In a culture that is enamored with guns like we Canadians are about Tim Horton’s or hockey, times 10, where guns are viewed by many both on a personal level and indeed by the government itself on an international scale as the preferred solution to problems; that these incidents do and will continue to happen should not be a surprise to anyone. Indeed the social contract virtually demands it.

 

However as the gun lobby slowly but undeniably creeps stronger here Canada there’s a lesson to be learned. Not for the USA, as that nation turns on itself it’s too late for them, but for each and every Canadian. Both personally and in whom we choose to lead us. It’s not too late for us but the window is closing. Let’s make sure the outrage to “never let this happen again” that is again everywhere there for a fleeting moment is also present here; vowing to never ever allow Canada to go down that same path. Our strength is in our difference from the USA, not our sameness, let’s keep it that way.

[Mike]

Ken, the one theme in your writing that I've never comprehended is the idea of a society that's "turned on itself." That's simply not the experience I've had in living in the USA, traveling from shore to shore. No advocate of Second Amendment rights with whom I'm familiar has ever suggested the type of warfare you allude to. Quite to the contrary, virtually everything I hear and read among that group is focused on the the protection of others.

 

I see how one could come to a conclusion such as yours by focusing on what you see and hear in some sectors of broadcast media, but it sure doesn't seem to be the reality that the overwhelming majority of us experience.

[tallman]

The idea to arm school staff is simply unfathomable.

 

How would one even begin to establish such tuning, on voluntary basis?

That volunteer would place a huge burden on him or herself at the same time painting himself as initial target. Furthermore initial and afterwards continuous training would be required to stay proficient not only with a firearm but with tactics as well. Schools are usually sizable building one or two volunteers would not make much difference.

 

As a former police officer, AND a school official neither can I. Normally I am not speechless, but in this case I am. Teachers go into the business to teach, love, and nurture kids, not become armed guards.

 

By the way, did you know that school related shootings have decreased over the past few years? Of course, one death is too many, but those who say attacks like this are increasing are wrong. I don't have numbers right in front of me, but the stats are readily available at the CDC and US Department of Education.

 

Until we focus on the CAUSES of violence, not the implements used, we'll never mitigate this problem.

 

 

Steve,

 

I agree 100%.

The causes need to be eradicated.

 

Until then, I want the right to not only protect myself in a school, but my students.

 

The poverty, drugs, violence, parents in jail/prison, felony arrests, theft, burglary,

assault, rape, murder, I see daily and work with gives me a different perspective.

Granted.

 

But for anyone on the outside to understand they need to experience it first hand.

 

I know multiple murderers and many victims of murder.

 

Yes, eradicating causes would be a godsend.

Until then...

 

Oh, by the way, it seems the shooter had been on the campus the day before and gotten into an altercation.

That is why he returned.

He was angry.

He killed 3 of the 4 people who had confronted him the day before (the 4th wasn't there at the time of the shooting).

 

Seems to me this is an old fashioned cause and effect.

He got mad and then did something.

 

I find it unfathomable that innocent children are murdered and some say arming educators to respond and hopefully reduce further injury or death is a line not to cross.

 

Really?

If the principal had shot this guy and no one else died would we be calling for gun control etc.?

 

nope, we'd be calling her a hero.

 

By the way, the AP story of going to truck and retrieving a weapon would not happen here.

Schools are gun free zones and we're not allowed to have them on campus, including vehicles.

 

As far as the armed person on campus being a target.

WE ARE ONE NOW.

 

That is the point.

 

Airplanes crash.

When they do it is news.

 

Yet we still allow airlines to operate and many here fly as pilot or passenger.

Why?

Becasue we expect the industry, company, and government to do everything to make it safe®.

Learn from crash and make it better.

 

We should do the same for schools.

I can't fathom people saying gun control will solve it and there will be no more shootings on campuses.

That is head in the sand, IMO.

I wish there had never been a shooting on any campus.

But I wish women weren't raped, banks weren't held up, armed robberies didn't happen.

 

They do.

Fear of admitting that we have a problem is part of the problem.

I see violent people every day.

Some very young.

They are out there and aren't going away until we eradicate the causes of poverty/abuse/neglect etc.

 

In Florida we have to pass a level II background check or higher to work with students.

Anyone who comes on campus, vendor, repair, volunteer, etc, must register and registered sex offenders are noted on a website.

We already limit and regulate who can work around children.

They have already had background checks.

I have an armed SRO on campus.

Not sure I see much dif between an armed uniformed officer and an armed, vetted, teacher.

 

I have a 1953 Federal Civil Defense Administration booklet on my desk.

It is Home Shelters For Family Protection In An Atomic Attack .

 

It "acquaints the householder with the problems of providing his family with shelter from atomic attack."

"an assumption has been made that the homeowner will have to provide shelter for his family at his own expense"

 

Really?

Sixty years ago use of atomic weapons and building a home shelter was acceptable on many levels by individuals, state, and federal governments.

There was a belief that we could protect ourself from nuclear weapons by following the instructions (although reading the fine print one saw that shelters were not to be occupied for extended periods of time, such as overnight.

Really?

 

Pretending we could do something about the damage done by atomic weapons was a feel good.

Pretending violence, and school violence will go away by itself is another feel good.

Would be nice.

Ain't gonna happen.

 

 

[tallman]

And some up to date data.

 

"The rate of firearms-related murders in 2011 was 3.2 per 100,000 people – a sharp decline from 1993 when the rate of firearms-related murders was 6.6 per 100,000 people"

 

link

 

This is still too many.

[SuperG]

Tim,

I am sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with you on many issues in your post.

 

"As far as the armed person on campus being a target.

WE ARE ONE NOW."

 

the children or students are not more of a target then anyone else. In this case the school was the place where the shooting has taken place because that is where or what the shooter had grief with.

 

Looking back at recent mass shootings. Arizona- congress woman Gifford, Wisconsin- Sikh temple shooting, Colorado , movie theater shooting or close my home- Austin TX airplane into the IRS building... or someone goes Postal...

My point is shooters don't target children or schools exclusively. They go where they feel the need to vent their anger. Children are no more of a target then others.

The question is do young school age or college age deranged person go back to school and commit crimes because they have issues with the school system?

 

IMHO 99.9% of the teachers would be against the arming argument.

 

where to store weapons in school? I am playing out different scenarios in my head, and none plays out well.

 

Remember the cop (recently) that had to use the restroom during his court hearing and left the gun in the bathroom stall, accidentally? This was a trained person.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[philbytx]

Love, nurture, teach and how about the option of defending themselves???

[upflying]

Love, nurture, teach and how about the option of defending themselves???

Exactly. After 9/11 there is not one aircraft crew member or able bodied airline passenger that will allow a terrorist to hijack an American airliner. "Let's roll" should be the new motto for school staff when the demented, berserk, lunatics invade any campus with harmful intentions. Schools have 5-10 minutes to defend themselves before LEO's arrive.

Arming school staff is not the answer but training school staff in less than lethal defense methods is. lanza was one scrawny guy, school staff amounts to dozens of adults. Rush lanza, tackle him in a swarming mass, drop him with the physical force of dozens of people who will disarm and disable him. The video of the attempted assassination of President Reagan comes to mind. Secret Service did not shoot and could not shoot John Hinckley Jr. Police tackled him, en mass.

The victims on 9-11 cowered in fear in the back of the airplane just like some of the staff probably did at the school.

Training school staff on how to react to these events could go a long way to preventing future loss of life.

Hopefully this painful lesson is just like the school's version of 9-11. Never again!

Cops receive active shooter training, the words "the will to survive" is constantly drilled in our minds. Unless you get a head shot, keep fighting. A gut shot will hurt but you are trained to keep going and fight.

We all have adrenalin and it makes us all super humans. We are all born with fight or flight instincts.