Sad news from the East Coast

[Bud]

Keep the families in your thoughts and prayers as they cope with the loss of their children.

[upflying]

I imagine this thread will grow as more news comes out of Connecticut. My first reaction is this is some sort of copycat gunman after the recent high profile mass shootings in Portland's Clackamas mall and the Aurora Co.movie theater.

Some mentally ill people seek notoriety and obtain pleasure knowing their actions will become part of history.

You can bet the gun control reformists will again call for more firearm restrictions. Based on initial reports, I can only assume that the shooter is mentally ill as all mass shooters seem to be.

Even the strictest gun controls will not stop a deranged person from obtaining and using a gun.

I would like to see some HIPAA exclusions allowing LEO's to cross-reference a firearm purchase with a person diagnosed with mental illness.

I predict this shooting will cause all schools in America to become high security facilities with no access without authorization and airport style screening.

Sad day indeed and consequences and repercussions will haunt us for years to come.

Prayers, condolences and blessings to all the families who lost children and loved ones.

 

[MT Wallet]

I imagine this thread will grow as more news comes out of Connecticut. My first reaction is this is some sort of copycat gunman after the recent high profile mass shootings in Portland's Clackamas mall and the Aurora Co.movie theater.

Some mentally ill people seek notoriety and obtain pleasure knowing their actions will become part of history.

You can bet the gun control reformists will again call for more firearm restrictions. Based on initial reports, I can only assume that the shooter is mentally ill as all mass shooters seem to be.

Even the strictest gun controls will not stop a deranged person from obtaining and using a gun.

I would like to see some HIPPA exclusions allowing LEO's to cross-reference a firearm purchase with a person diagnosed with mental illness.

I predict this shooting will cause all schools in America to become high security facilities with no access without authorization and airport style screening.

Sad day indeed and consequences and repercussions will haunt us for years to come.

Prayers, condolences and blessings to all the families who lost children and loved ones.

 

Sad day indeed. Thanks for summing it up Bob. It just seems more people have taken leave of their senses. It's so senseless and stupid.

[Mike]

Keep the families in your thoughts and prayers as they cope with the loss of their children.

 

Amen.

[tallman]

"I predict this shooting will cause all schools in America to become high security facilities with no access without authorization and airport style screening."

 

If only that was true.

There are about 100,000 public schools.

Multiply the cost times 100,000 and you get a whole bunch.

Right now we can't pay teachers in some places, drastic cuts in every aspect of facility use and managment.

Don't think a majority of the taxpayers who aren't personally impacted will go along.

 

Cheaper to let teachers be armed if they desire to.

Sad day, sad times, condolences and prayers all around.

 

[taters]

Chicago has the toughest gun control laws in the country. This year more people were murdered by guns in Chicago than American servicemen killed in Afghanistan.

Gun control is a failure but many people will be calling for more gun control. Emotion trumps logic with many people when tragedies like this happen

[EddyQ]

Keep the families in your thoughts and prayers as they cope with the loss of their children.

+1

 

I'd like to extend those prayers to all the kids, teachers, parents and others involved that may have experienced in close proximity this horrific tragedy. I figure these kids, elementary kids who still believe in Santa Clause have witnessed something that would cripple most adults.

 

Really makes me wonder where in today's society is worstening this sort of thing.

[AdventurePoser]

And so the crazy talk will begin....arm teachers, TSA style body searches etc.

 

What happened today was a tragedy that we cannot hope to understand. Let's also remember that school is, overall, the safest place a child can be. Every year, several dozen students lose their lives at school from a variety of causes. Every case is tragic, whether it's a kid who dies during PE, run over in a crosswalk, or shot. The odds are one in millions that a student will lose his or her life at school.

 

I pray for these kids, their parents, and our community.

 

 

 

 

[beemerman2k]

I would like to see the spotlight of concern focus on the mentally and emotionally ill. To me, so long as we don't provide resources to address and help these sufferers overcome their condition, then guns or no guns, this kind of thing will continue to happen.

 

It takes a very disturbed person to do an act like this one. No healthy person of sound mind engages in acts such as this. Let's seek to help and to heal the mentally ill among us!

[Paul Mihalka]

It is a tragedy. Terrible to everybody involved, and for the impossibility of understanding how somebody can do something like this. A deranged mind has no limits in what it will do.

I would leave guns and gun control out of the thread. If you and I have different opinions on the subject, I will not convince you of my opinion and you will not convince me of yours.

[Dave McReynolds]

In many cases, it's no more possible to heal a mentally or emotionally ill person than it is to heal someone with a genetically inherited physical disorder or an incurable cancer. In 99% of the cases, the person is in much more danger of hurting themselves than anyone else.

 

However, in the 1% of cases where the person is a danger to others, I'll bet that someone knew, or suspected, that something was going to happen before it did. They either didn't report it because they didn't know how, were afraid, or did report it and nothing helpful happened.

[upflying]

I would imagine all of us personally know a mentally ill person.

I would also imagine most of us would refrain from becoming a mentally ill person whistleblower. This is based on the fear of unsolicited meddling and creating relationship problems with your own family.

 

[beemerman2k]

I would love to read the perspectives from mental health professionals on this matter.

 

My question is this: is it common for a person to go from theoretical mentally ill to shooting up a class room of children? Among rational people, there are transitions, acts that indicate a gradual shift in thinking. Is this also the case for the mentally ill? Is this shooter likely guilty of lesser crimes that if taken seriously, could have prevented this kind of thing?

 

We all need to get educated on this subject. The mind is like any other part of our bodies; it gets sick at times, too. How can we better treat such cases?

[AdventurePoser]

It is a tragedy. Terrible to everybody involved, and for the impossibility of understanding how somebody can do something like this. A deranged mind has no limits in what it will do.

I would leave guns and gun control out of the thread. If you and I have different opinions on the subject, I will not convince you of my opinion and you will not convince me of yours.

 

Hi Paul,

 

FWIW, I never mentioned guns or gun control in my post, FWIW. I agree with you that a truly deranged person who wants to hurt others will do so...

 

Steve

[ESokoloff]

[SuperG]

sad indeed...

 

However incidents like this, did and will happen again randomly.

I believe any normal or deranged person can snap and lose their mind one minute to the next. Some may plan it or work up to it slowly but others just snap.

Guns will be blamed, but a deranged person will use anything available, example a vehicle a personal airplane (recently in Austin TX) or homemade devices like the IEDs used in the mid-east.

 

this is a horrific tragedy...but why the children?

 

 

[tallman]

Paul,

 

My comment is on policy, not just carrying a gun.

 

As a teacher I'm entrusted with the education, health, nourishment, safety, and nuturing of students.

There is even a phrase in loco parentis

By far the most common usage of in loco parentis relates to teachers and students.

 

I feel that concept should extend to the same right of a parent to defend a child when the child id in my care on campus.

 

If I was a store and this killer started shooting I could legally come to the defense of a child and others, even though I don't know them.

 

Why shouldn't I have the same oppotunity to protect a child when they have been entrusted to my care?

 

Not looking to turn this into a thread on guns.

 

But, that difference in what I can legally do, can't even bring a modern weapon on campus, compared to off campus rights, is always a mystery to me.

I just feel that when I have legislatively charged with certain duties and responsibilities it is counterintuitive to then restrict my options to protect them (students) if they are on campus.

 

Floridians have a right to protect themself at work, in most situations.

Schools, no.

 

Where do these incidents happen?

Schools?

Yes.

 

Something is wrong, IMO, with that.

[Paul Mihalka]

It is a tragedy. Terrible to everybody involved, and for the impossibility of understanding how somebody can do something like this. A deranged mind has no limits in what it will do.

I would leave guns and gun control out of the thread. If you and I have different opinions on the subject, I will not convince you of my opinion and you will not convince me of yours.

 

Hi Paul,

 

FWIW, I never mentioned guns or gun control in my post, FWIW. I agree with you that a truly deranged person who wants to hurt others will do so...

 

Steve

Sorry, Steve, I just happened to click on "reply" after your post, no gun talk there or anywhere in this our thread. I just made the comment because some times these threads go that way. In Advrider Jo Momma the Connecticut tragedy thread is at 57 gun control pages and going.

[elkroeger]

It's a chicken shit thing to do - that's for sure.

[upflying]

So what is the common denominator in these mass shootings?

 

Seems to me the shooters are young white male loners, outcasts, socially awkward losers, introverted, melancholy depressed wallflowers who probably play violent video games in the privacy of their bedrooms for 20 hours a day.

Leaving the world after conducting a massive and shocking event will forever mark them as a "somebody" in their miserable lives. It's their only option to be someone.

What's the answer? Psychologists and psychiatrists must be able to report these people to police without the fear of violating the doctor/patient privacy laws.

Not likely to happen but this is a step in the right direction in my opinion.

What lawmaker wants to take this on?

[Shaman97]

What's the answer? Psychologists and psychiatrists must be able to report these people to police without the fear of violating the doctor/patient privacy laws

 

How would that have changed anything in the Newtown incident?

[TEWKS]

 

How would that have changed anything in the Newtown incident?

 

Mental illness and guns in the same home is bad. I don't know if I want to let this shit bag off with the mental illness excuse though. (I know he's dead)

 

RevRay's friend Scott is from Newtown, he attended the UN and FART. I feel really awful about this.

 

Pat

[pbbeck]

Echoing and building on what James said about focusing on the mentality of the mentally ill, I think the discussion should focus on the mentality of our society in general - in particular with our young people. What happened yesterday was part and parcel to a society that glorifies violence. The middle schoolers I teach have spent years in murder training simulators (Call or Duty, Modern Warfare, etc.) and are all well versed in combat weaponry. All this is occurring during critical phases of brain development and the development of their self-identities. They don't debate literature or science projects or societal issues over lunch. They debate which weapons they would use when it all hits the fan. It's no wonder, given the wild popularity of the zombie apocalypse genre in entertainment and the shameless promotion and validation of the "doomsday preppers" provided by the National Geographic Channel (which of course is an educational channel ).

 

Youngsters should be horrified by violence. Instead, they are entertained by it.

[Ken H.]

I can only assume that the shooter is mentally ill as all mass shooters seem to be.

Even the strictest gun controls will not stop a deranged person from obtaining and using a gun.

I would like to see some HIPAA exclusions allowing LEO's to cross-reference a firearm purchase with a person diagnosed with mental illness.

Actually it’s well recognized by criminal physiologist that not all mass killers are mentally ill. Some are driven by ideology or political reasons. Others could be bent on revenge of some kind. While yes, some[/], but not all, have mental health issues such as delusions, suicidal thoughts or are straight-out psychopaths experiencing a psychopathic episode.

 

It’s a mistake to casually dismiss these incidents as always being a product of mental illness of the perpetuator.

[Ken H.]

I would leave guns and gun control out of the thread.

I disagree Paul. Rather I think each and every one of these incidents should be discussed over and over (everywhere), be kept in the foreground as long as possible, and be dissected to the Nth degree.

 

We all everyone everywhere should talk about it, talk about it, and keep on talking about it for days, weeks, years. Because only out of that may someday come a solution.

[Rocer]

Bob, in my province doctors are obligated to report to the Ministry of Transport when a patient's medical condition poses a potential threat to the public when their patient is behind the wheel. There are also federal laws that restrict access to guns in situations such as domestic violence, behavioural or emotional problems etc. Here is a portion of the application for a PAL license (Possession and Acquisition License) to own a gun:

 

C - Personal History (New Canadian Residents and Non-residents, refer to Information Sheet)

If you answer yes to any of the questions in this section, you must provide details on a separate page. Add your name at the top of each page you attach. If

details are not provided, your application cannot be processed.

A yes answer does not mean your application will be refused but it may lead to further examination.

If you have received a pardon for any offence listed in box 16 a), you are not required to disclose the offence.

16. a) During the past five (5) years, have you been charged, convicted or granted a discharge for an offence:

(i) under the Criminal Code or the Youth Criminal Justice Act where violence was used, threatened or attempted;

(ii) involving the misuse, possession or storage of a firearm; or

(iii) involving trafficking or importing drugs or controlled substances?

Yes No

16 b) During the past five (5) years, have you been subject to a peace bond, protection order or an order under section 810 of the

Criminal Code?

Yes No

16. c) During the past five (5) years, have you or any member of your household been prohibited from possessing any firearm? Yes No

16. d) During the past five (5) years, have you threatened or attempted suicide, or have you suffered from or been diagnosed or treated by

a medical practitioner for: depression; alcohol, drug or substance abuse;behavioural problems; or emotional problems?

Yes No

16. e) During the past five (5) years, do you know if you have been reported to the police or social services for violence, threatened or

attempted violence, or other conflict in your home or elsewhere?

Yes No

16. f) During the past two (2) years, have you experienced a divorce, a separation, a breakdown of a significant relationship, job loss or

bankruptcy?

Yes No

D - Conjugal Status (You must answer both questions 17. a) & b) or your licence application will be delayed.)

17. a) Do you currently have a spouse, common-law or other conjugal partner? No Yes. If yes, you must complete section E.

17. b) Within the last two (2) years have you lived in a conjugal relationship other than with

the person you may have referred to in question 17. a)? No Yes. If yes, you must complete section F.

E - Information About Current Conjugal Partner (refer to Information Sheet)

18. a) Last name of current spouse, common-law or other conjugal partner 18. b) First name

18. c) Middle name 18. d) Date of birth (YYYY-MM-DD)

If the signature of your current spouse, common-law or other conjugal partner is not provided, the Chief Firearms Officer has a duty to notify

them of your application.

If you have any safety concerns about this application, please call 1 800 731-4000.

18. e) Signature of current spouse, common-law or other conjugal partner 18. f) Date (YYYY-MM-DD)

18. g) Telephone number Extension When can he / she be

reached at this number? evening

da

 

Lawmakers are taking on this issue albeit perhaps not so much in your jurisdiction where gun ownership is a right.

 

And yes Bud, Newtown will remain in our thoughts and prayers for a long time.

 

[SuperG]

So what is the common denominator in these mass shootings?

 

Seems to me the shooters are young white male loners, outcasts, socially awkward losers, introverted, melancholy depressed wallflowers who probably play violent video games in the privacy of their bedrooms for 20 hours a day.

Leaving the world after conducting a massive and shocking event will forever mark them as a "somebody" in their miserable lives. It's their only option to be someone.

What's the answer? Psychologists and psychiatrists must be able to report these people to police without the fear of violating the doctor/patient privacy laws.

Not likely to happen but this is a step in the right direction in my opinion.

What lawmaker wants to take this on?

 

by the time I typed this 3 other post have popped up, so some are kind of repeating ideas

 

Rocer,

reporting mental issues and preventing the person to purchase guns? the shooters mother had 4 registered guns. It is likely that Mom signed the guns purchase forms, and unlikely all 4 were intended for her own use.

 

Upflying , you are venturing into what was described in the movie - Minority report- with TOm Cruise, where the arrested /prosecuted people simply based on assumption and on the act/choice that they have not done yet, they basically predicted what people will do in the future days.

 

agree about the violent video games, which by the way ( its development) is supported by our own government, as part of recruiting tool for armed service.( my source is TV media and news articles, so it could be a lie...)

However that is technology advancing ..everything is lifelike now, laser or IR tag shooting sets (toy version) can be picked up at walmart, my own kids play with them.

 

Arming teachers, pilot, bus driver, amusement park attendants, securing airports schools, mass transport..Where does it stop?

Need to have different solution.

 

Can you catch or prevent mentally deranged person from going berserk? how?

The persons environmental change or variables such as divorce or other relation ship or financial issues can turn a normal person quickly.

[Paul Mihalka]

I would leave guns and gun control out of the thread.

I disagree Paul. Rather I think each and every one of these incidents should be discussed over and over (everywhere), be kept in the foreground as long as possible, and be dissected to the Nth degree.

 

We all everyone everywhere should talk about it, talk about it, and keep on talking about it for days, weeks, years. Because only out of that may someday come a solution.

I mostly meant that gun discussion should be left out of THIS thread. It takes away from the consideration for the victims. If anybody wants to start a gun control thread, good luck. The Jo Momma discussion is up to 77 pages.

[Rocer]

Part of the responsibility of owning guns, again I'm speaking in my jurisdiction, is the safe storage of guns. It's a requirement that the owner have their guns (and I believe ammunition) stored in a secure and locked location and not be accessible to non-owners.

[upflying]

What's the answer? Psychologists and psychiatrists must be able to report these people to police without the fear of violating the doctor/patient privacy laws

 

How would that have changed anything in the Newtown incident?

If Lanza was being treated for mental illness, the Dr.could have reported the potential predictive dangerous behavior diagnosis to LEO's. I would assume psychologists can diagnose dangerous behavior in their patients. At least he would be flagged on a watch list.

BTW, Ca can involuntarily hold people who are danger to themselves or others. This is a just a revolving door though and is often used by LEO's to get drug users who are flipping out off the street until the end of the officers shift.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_%28Involuntary_psychiatric_hold%29

[Shaman97]

What's the answer? Psychologists and psychiatrists must be able to report these people to police without the fear of violating the doctor/patient privacy laws

 

How would that have changed anything in the Newtown incident?

If Lanza was being treated for mental illness, the Dr.could have reported the potential predictive dangerous behavior diagnosis to LEO's. I would assume psychologists can diagnose dangerous behavior in their patients. At least he would be flagged on a watch list.

BTW, Ca can involuntarily hold people who are danger to themselves or others. This is a just a revolving door though and is often used by LEO's to get drug users who are flipping out off the street until the end of the officers shift.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_%28Involuntary_psychiatric_hold%29

 

So far, we hear that Lanza was a nerd and an honor student. His brother said Adam had a personality disorder. This doesn't sound like the sort of thing we'd like to have our young citizens have on file with a law enforcement agency. How would that be taken on a job interview, military service opportunity, or however the law enforcement organizations want to interpret it?

 

His mother used to take him target shooting, so presumably the weapons were in the house, owned by the mother. Would you advocate the mother should not have the right to have firearms in the house because of the so-far-reported profile of Adam?

[Selden]

It is a tragedy. Terrible to everybody involved, and for the impossibility of understanding how somebody can do something like this. A deranged mind has no limits in what it will do.

I would leave guns and gun control out of the thread. If you and I have different opinions on the subject, I will not convince you of my opinion and you will not convince me of yours.

Agreed about leaving out gun control from this discussion. Unfortunately, unlike Aurora, and Tucson last year, the shooter is dead, so we can gain only indirect knowledge of his mental state. And, perhaps the best person to provide a different perspective, his mother, is also dead.

[Selden]

I have turned off the TV, and plan to keep it turned off all weekend.

[Selden]

What's the answer? Psychologists and psychiatrists must be able to report these people to police without the fear of violating the doctor/patient privacy laws

 

How would that have changed anything in the Newtown incident?

Unfortunately, you are right. Apparently, the guns belonged to his mother, so there was no sale to a mentally ill person.

 

Did anybody think he was demonstrably a danger to society before this happened? Probably not. I'm not watching TV, but I can imagine the "He was such a nice young man interviews." Still, I can't help but think that, as a society, we have some serious problems that enable/encourage sick people to strike out this way.

[Shaman97]

Selene,

 

I'm not watching it much, but what I am seeing is as you say. My view is that in this instance, there is nothing we should do as a result of this incident, though our hearts want us to DO SOMETHING. Unfortunately, we can't, nor should we.

[Selden]

I'm not watching it much, but what I am seeing is as you say. My view is that in this instance, there is nothing we should do as a result of this incident, though our hearts want us to DO SOMETHING. Unfortunately, we can't, nor should we.

You raise a very good point: our natural reaction (especially politicians) is to DO SOMETHING, and sometimes that just isn't the appropriate response. This may be one of those “Don’t just do something; stand there!” moments. When Doing Nothing is the Best Medicine

[DiggerJim]

Still, I can't help but think that, as a society, we have some serious problems that enable/encourage sick people to strike out this way.

 

Other societies have similar problems. Ironically, the same day: China school knife attack.

 

 

[Alan D]

I would like to see the spotlight of concern focus on the mentally and emotionally ill. To me, so long as we don't provide resources to address and help these sufferers overcome their condition, then guns or no guns, this kind of thing will continue to happen.

 

It takes a very disturbed person to do an act like this one. No healthy person of sound mind engages in acts such as this. Let's seek to help and to heal the mentally ill among us!

Our mental health programs are in the dark ages. We are learning more about the brain everyday and I hope we can make some serious progress soon.

Look here:

http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html

 

 

[TyTass]

I've just started reading several 'articles' about the link between the increase in violent behavoirs and certain psychiatric drugs. I have no idea of the credibility of the articles or such claims at this time, but it seems furtile ground for study that might yield results (as opposed to unceasing red herring debates that go nowhere).

 

Added: The reason I say red herring is because the tool used to commit murder isn't (nor has it ever been) the issue. Though it makes a powerful distraction. The worst case of mass murder didn't involve guns.

[tallman]

Craig,

 

We as a nation have sanctioned the use of pschoactive drugs to treat our youth.

 

I see case after case where the "meds" aren't working (no increasse in attention/control of impulsivity/better work product) and yet the "doctor" keeps prescribing (or changing to another) controlled substances to children.

 

In 40 years I've seen 1 in a 1000 become 1 in 6 wrt prescription rate.

 

What I find interesting is the wide disparity in this based on geography.

link

 

Why such regional differences?

Food for thought.

[Dave McReynolds]

There are many people in the same boat as the anarchist soccer mom; I'm sure we all know at least one. And for every one like her son, there are many more with milder problems like my son, who function pretty well on many levels, but have some mental issue that prevents them from fully functioning in society.

 

In my son's case, at the age of 40, he has never held a job very long because he evidently has some form of paranoia that makes him believe his boss or co-workers are plotting against him. I would assume this is sort of a self-fulfilling fantasy, because I'm sure that once you think people are plotting against you, you begin to act suspicious towards them, which makes them unfriendly towards you, and on and on.

 

I believe mental illness is a huge problem, for which there seems to be no real solution. From cases as severe as soccer mom's son, to milder cases like my son's, pills and counseling provide temporary relief at best. In most cases, the patients resent the treatment and/or side effects of the drugs. Deep down, they really don't think the problem is inside their own heads, but instead is a problem with other people or society in general. The fact that there are a lot of real problems in life with other people, and that a good, rational argument can be made that society really is corrupt makes this a difficult issue to address head-on. Many of these people are smart, like soccer mom's son and my son, and realize that other people can learn to live happier lives than they do with difficult people in a corrupt society, but many are also extremely altruistic and don't believe they should have to. It would be sort of like making a pact with the devil.

 

I can see where thinking like this in extreme cases could lead one to decide to commit a massacre. After all, God did it in Noah's time for much the same reasons. Selecting children as victims would be seen as the most severe way to punish those who were left. Weren't God's plagues in Moses time directed mainly against children?

 

The problem with doing anything about this to prevent future massacres is the shear size of the mental health problem: estimates are that 20% of the population is affected with some mental disorder or another. Virtually none of them will ever consider killing anyone other than themselves. Clearly, severe cases should not have access to weapons, but who determines what is a severe case? The courts have that authority, of course, but that is an expensive, cumbersome, time consuming process. OTOH, I'm sure that anything less than a court proceeding would be strongly resisted by a large part of the gun-owning population because of the (perhaps justified) fear that any one of them could have their weapons taken away in some kind of extra-judicial witch hunt. Some less-than-severe cases will probably commit massacres, but I don't think there is any way to know who that will be, or even to isolate them within a relatively small group that could be monitored from the much larger group of anti-social people who have destructive fantasies.

 

 

[RevRay]

 

How would that have changed anything in the Newtown incident?

 

Mental illness and guns in the same home is bad. I don't know if I want to let this shit bag off with the mental illness excuse though. (I know he's dead)

 

RevRay's friend Scott is from Newtown, he attended the UN and FART. I feel really awful about this.

 

 

 

Pat

 

A tragedy for sure, a sadness felt deep to the core of being.

 

[Scott Schifilliti]

Forgive my lack of posts, this one is close to home. The school is within walking distance of our animal hospital. Horrible situation that is attracting the wrong attention. If we took the budget used in this town for armed police overtime used to direct traffic in construction zones and moved the resource into the schools this problem would have been greatly reduced. We need people at the scene, not called to the scene.

[upflying]

Forgive my lack of posts, this one is close to home. The school is within walking distance of our animal hospital. Horrible situation that is attracting the wrong attention. If we took the budget used in this town for armed police overtime used to direct traffic in construction zones and moved the resource into the schools this problem would have been greatly reduced. We need people at the scene, not called to the scene.

Many condolences for your loss, sorrow and anger. But armed police stationed at elementary schools may not be the best use of resources either. As someone mentioned previously, there are 100,000 schools in the United states. Where does the funding come from?

 

[Rinkydink]

I just wish the media would leave it alone and quit giving the nutcase the coverage he craved. The more it's publicized as one of the biggest killings in US history the more other nutcases want to up the ante...IMHO

 

We remember the shooter's name and can't recall one of the victim's names.

[upflying]

What's the answer? Psychologists and psychiatrists must be able to report these people to police without the fear of violating the doctor/patient privacy laws

 

How would that have changed anything in the Newtown incident?

If Lanza was being treated for mental illness, the Dr.could have reported the potential predictive dangerous behavior diagnosis to LEO's. I would assume psychologists can diagnose dangerous behavior in their patients. At least he would be flagged on a watch list.

BTW, Ca can involuntarily hold people who are danger to themselves or others. This is a just a revolving door though and is often used by LEO's to get drug users who are flipping out off the street until the end of the officers shift.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_%28Involuntary_psychiatric_hold%29

 

So far, we hear that Lanza was a nerd and an honor student. His brother said Adam had a personality disorder. This doesn't sound like the sort of thing we'd like to have our young citizens have on file with a law enforcement agency. How would that be taken on a job interview, military service opportunity, or however the law enforcement organizations want to interpret it?

 

His mother used to take him target shooting, so presumably the weapons were in the house, owned by the mother. Would you advocate the mother should not have the right to have firearms in the house because of the so-far-reported profile of Adam?

What if lanza told his psychologist, spiritual advisor or attorney, "I feel homicidal today, I feel the need to kill someone". Obviously the words used may not be that direct but what if the nuances were more subtle?

Would or could any of these three people legally tell anyone else what lanza confided in them?

Could future lanza's be thwarted if laws regarding confidential information be shared.

I realize lanza was a gifted nerd. But someone, somewhere must have seen the red flags of this schizophrenic sociopathic psychopath.

I'm sure mom saw it but she saw her son through rose colored glasses.

(lower case L intentional)

 

[DaveTheAffable]

I just wish the media would leave it alone and quit giving the nutcase the coverage he craved. The more it's publicized as one of the biggest killings in US history the more other nutcases want to up the ante...IMHO

 

...and therein lays one of the problems.

 

Keep it in context

 

It reads in part..

 

I assured these reporters that the latest shooting was not reflective of an upward trajectory. Rather, our collective memories apparently lose sight of other violent moments in recent history when mass shootings have been clustered closely in time....

 

...It wasn't commonplace years ago to have a swarm of reporters on the scene with microphones and cameras just in time to interview surviving children with fresh tears in their eyes. We also didn't hear an array of eye witnesses and emergency responders talk about a "parent's worst nightmare" or describe the scene as the worst they've encounter in their careers. And we certainly did not have folks tweeting updates from location.

 

So, if it seems like these dreadful crimes are occurring more frequently, it is really the immediacy and pervasiveness of media coverage that creates the impression. And thanks to state-of-the-art technology, it can feel as though the tragedy happened in your own backyard.

 

I know we are supposed to limit cut and paste, re copyright issues. Go read the article.

 

He recounts the the 1927 Bath, MI incident where 35 children were killed with explosives... no guns.

 

Wiki - Bath School Disater 1927

[racer7]

I'm 66 and when younger was a member or director at a couple very large gun clubs in the NE that had substantial facilities. When I was still shooting competitively, running range days, etc most of the members were vets, hunters, or cops or all 3 and only a few shot target pistols. Concealed carry was rare and our members who had to carry off duty typically wanted something small and light- not 3 lbs of iron. Firearms safety was constantly drilled in and even a modest weapon handling infraction could get a member suspended or thrown out permanently.

 

Sometime in 80s stuff changed a lot and not for the good. We started seeing applicants who apparently saw firearms as an addition to their macho image when a any competitive shooter can tell you, a range more resembles a bowling alley without the beer than anything macho. I began to see young folks in the field with very casual handling practices- often seeing things like loaded weapons carelessly pointed, relying simply on the gun's safety.

 

Todays gun sales have shifted from mostly sporting weapons and surplus bolt rifles toward a huge array of semi auto handguns and assault rifle copies, most worthless for hunting or even target use. And the industry's publications these days are all about weapons for defense, etc. I believe many current buyers are basically replaying movie fantasies or their own when buying these things, having seen the dramatic changes over the years in who owns guns and why.

 

Although I believe in a right to own weapons, I find it very difficult to support this current gun culture nurtured by the NRA, the makers and publishers and others. I am so disgusted with NRA's lack of civility in its publications that started with Wayne LaPierre that I dropped my NRA membership 15 years ago. Every time Obama wins an election or issue, gun sales spike as the nuts rush to increase their arsenals, despite the fact that he's made no significant efforts to attack firearms owners or use.

 

As long as there are people with aberrant behavior and millions of firearms available to them, I don't see any way to stop periodic crazy episodes like this latest one. But when/if our culture ever shifts away from its current firearms fantasies, one can predict the rate will drop also.

 

I'll add that firearms, especially handguns, in the hands of young people is a high risk in all circumstances. As adults, we are all familiar with the physical and mental stresses on teens and the periodic lack of good judgement that seems to happen at that age. When a firearm is too handy, avoidable tragedy can be the result. I know of one person whose son, like his dad, was a very solid competitive shooter with a pistol but he was also a closet gay when there was less acceptance of that 30 years ago and ended up commiting suicide with his competition piece. There is also a huge difference between the discipline learned in competitive shooting, a mostly mental and self control sport, and simply taking a kid out to fuel his gun fantasies by blasting cans and bottles- one has to wonder about this mother's judgment though I know nothing of her or the circumstances. There is the obvious question of why the weapons were accessible. I taught my kids about firearms and gun safety with 20 gauge guns when they were 5 yrs old so they would have knowledge and facts, not fantasy but everything at my place was locked in a safe whose combination exists only in my head, just in case they ever got tempted.

[Shaman97]

What if lanza told his psychologist, spiritual advisor or attorney, "I feel homicidal today, I feel the need to kill someone". Obviously the words used may not be that direct but what if the nuances were more subtle?

Would or could any of these three people legally tell anyone else what lanza confided in them?

Could future lanza's be thwarted if laws regarding confidential information be shared.

I realize lanza was a gifted nerd. But someone, somewhere must have seen the red flags of this schizophrenic sociopathic psychopath.

I'm sure mom saw it but she saw her son through rose colored glasses.

(lower case L intentional)

 

What if...

 

None of this is in the reportage to date. Lanza was a loner to an extreme; perhaps Asperger's. Lots of kids in school were loners at one time, then grew out of it after leaving the schooling environment.

 

Do we want to have all the loners identified by psychs and clergy interviewed by the police? Way too much subjectivity on the part of all involved for my tastes. This really is approaching Minority Report ideology.

 

Parents reporting their children as a 'possible' psychopath? Come on, now.

 

The head of School District security noted that Lanza was an extreme loner, yet did nothing, apparently. Do we hold him accountable? How?

 

We already have laws (I presume) that prohibit mental health patients from purchasing firearms, but do the parents have the ability to purchase and keep firearms in their house in your scenario?

 

[ratfink]

When I was growing up in the 60's and 70's in a small town in southern Oregon, many children had ready access to guns and ammo of all manner. Many parents were gun owners, many children were gun owners for that matter. on rare occassions there were tragic accidents from children playing with guns at home but I don't remember hearing about any massacres or intentional homicides.

 

In high school it was not unusual to see students and teachers pickups in the in the school parking lot with rifles or shotguns clearly visible in the back window gunracks during hunting season.

Hunting was a frequent after school activity.

 

I'm not advocating that children should have ready access to guns

or take them to school just pointing out that there is a big difference in then and now.

 

In my opinion the big difference is how we medicate children at a young age. If a kid fidgets too much in class or blurts out they get ritalin or some other drug crammed down their gullet. Depressed or suicidal? There are drugs for that, the side effects

are known to make the condition worse in some people.

 

My prediction is that in 150 years we will be regarded as a society that poisoned our children with toxic phamaceuticals, ignorant of the adverse effects they would have on future brain development and function. Violent video games probably don't help the situation either.