Final Drive Minder

[Sweendog]

I checked mine today. Not sure if this is normal.

[Armando]

Installed on Friday.

 

 

[Gruesome]

Ok, mine has been installed now for a few days; let the worrying begin! This morning I found the smallest amount of grey metal dust on the magnet.

[Armando]

I checked mine after my commute to work. Sure enough, there are shiny particles along with black crud. Grease? from where?

 

No big flakes so not too worried. Royal purple is been there for less than a year and with Winter coming, I will probably wait for Spring before changing oil.

 

 

[taylor1]

Just got back from a 1,600 mile trip to the Outer Banks. Just missed the rain, Checked my FD Minder and found the smooth metallic gear oil on it .Just like I always find on the drain plug. No metal slivers.I believe all is fine and it is doing its job. THANKS TERRY

[realshelby]

I typically find a "black blob" on the end of the magnet. This is saturated with gear oil so there is very little actual material in it. When wiped on a paper towel is leaves a short black streak. Nothing shiny, no lumps or chunks or slivers.

 

If anyone finds anything that is solid it would be really good to see a picture of it. What we need is a data base of pictures and descriptions of unusual/unwanted material stuck to the magnet. Should one of the users have a final drive start producing copious amounts of debris or fail completely it could be very valuable to have the timeline/miles from the first notice of solid material to where the bearing starts degrading rapidly.

[Gruesome]

What it looks like on a R1150GS.

For some reason this forum makes it quite tricky to insert uploaded pics into the post - very odd: Upload - post - view post to get picture url - edit post to insert link. Is there an easier way?

[Juzar]

Terry,

I am interested in testing out too if you still are looking for mote volunteers. 1997 RT with 36k miles.

 

Thanks,

Juzar.

[BIWOZ]

Well, sure wish I'd read this earlier. In two weeks Dearly Beloved and I are heading across Australia on the 1150RT (2003 build; 2004 model; 31k miles); about 8500 km/5300 miles altogether in three weeks. After reading about the seeming inevitability of FD failure on this forum, I'm questioning the wisdom of the whole trip and contemplating cancelling the holiday! I most certainly do NOT want a failure in the middle of the Nullarbor! Something like this would have helped set my mind at rest, and I think I'll be a definite customer if you do go into production.

 

Great idea.

 

Bruce

[tazplas]

Hi Bruce

 

PM sent to you.

 

Cheers

 

Steve

[philbytx]

Same here....

after 1500 miles, just the black smooth blob !

 

[BriSco]

I've checked mine before every ride and wiped just a smidge of black off the magnet.

 

Yesterday I took a 632 mile ride. Checked after the ride and had the same black, but upon wiping it off with a blue towel, detected a hint of silver sparkles within the black when in the sunlight. I've never looked at the towel in the sunlight, so I don't know if this is an anomaly.

[Selden]

I'm one of the beta testers for this, with a short one with a slotted top. Now that I understand how it works, the slot isn't necessary; the knurled portion provides plenty of grip. Half-inch is long enough, but I can imagine that 3/4" would provide a little more grip. After a month of use, the magnet is picking up only the usual small amount of black sludge on my 1999 RT final drive, with 96,100 miles on it.

 

Other than that, all I can say is that this is a nice farkle, probably more useful than most, and I hope that Terry goes ahead with making a batch for sale, if he can do so at a price that justifies his labor (a lot of separate machining steps go into the making of these). Thanks for making me one of your guinea pigs.

[Gruesome]

One month and about 1000 miles update: the FDM didn't fall off, magnet also still attached, knurling, threads and seals still in good shape, and only a tiny amount of black sludge so far. I have stopped wiping it off after every check, on the assumption that the big silver shavings we are looking for would attach themselves on top of the black metal dust!?

 

It's a really nice piece of custom machined equipment that should be under every OCD worrywart R-bike owner's Xmas/Hanukkah/Kwanzaa tree (assuming there is a Kwanzaa tree).

Thanks again, realshelby!

 

Somewhat related: I found that my bike has no rear wheel play when pushing/pulling at 6 and 12 o'clock, and a minute just barely perceptible amount at 3/9 o'clock. Does that point to the pivot bearings/bushings, not the final drive, or can no such distinction be made from this observation?

[ElevenFifty]

Pivot bearings - easy to fix - heat gun required.

 

Also a beta tester with a couple of thousand miles using the non-slotted 3/4 inch version. Works great. I think by final drive has been miraculously healed by this device! Hallelujah!

 

Really sweet piece of work. Thanks

 

DH

[RoanokeRider]

Also a beta tester. After I sntalled it, I have not had a chance to ride the bike (I have 3 and this one is not my commuter). I have pushed it around inside the garage a couple of times. I was showing it to a friend, and it did have the black sluge on it. Without actually riding it. That is a strong magnet.

[scout6]

About 2000 miles on mine, and just the black blob on the end of the minder. Same stuff on the drain plug (repalced with a dimple magnet). The filtered oil shows no bits that were not picked up by one of the magnets. Go Beta Testers.

[DiggerJim]

1500 on the 1150 and just goo. The 3/4" size is great. Just need one for the 1200 (different thread size & pitch).

[ESokoloff]

Now that I understand how it works, the slot isn't necessary; the knurled portion provides plenty of grip.

 

Yeah, do I feel foolish for suggesting it.

 

Seemed like a good idea at the time

[jjg3]

First off I'd like to say much thanks to Terry for letting me participate in the testing.

 

Have finally gotten around to wrapping up the pics of the Final Drive Minder. After installing, I did a week of commuting at 30 miles/day (150 miles) and then immediately followed that with a 10 day trip of 6200+ miles. Did oil changes and took samples before the commute week and after the trip. Samples went to Blackstone Labs.

 

I believe mine was one of the original prototypes and I think it need not be any longer nor slotted. The knurling and length worked out fine. Any longer and I would be concerned for it getting inadvertently snapped off. The week of commuting produced some of what looked to me to be sludge and during the trip it seemed to accumulate the same material. I cleaned it after the commuting week but did not clean it during the trip. During the trip it seemed to accumulate to a certain amount and then maintain that amount, in other words, there was not a huge glob of sludge on the FDM at the end of 6k miles/10 days. If you expect to do daily inspections for an extended time, I would suggest some schedule of replacing the O-ring. It seemed to get 'mushy' almost to the point of being ineffective toward the end of the trip. Nothing catastrophic, just a suggestion. The FDM did seem to pick up at least as much fuzz and flakes as the drain magnet. A look at the oil analysis shows a marked decrease in iron on this last sample. I cannot say with any certainty that the FDM was a factor, but it is entirely possible. Additional testing could determine one way or the other. The iron levels in my FD did not seem to be a factor of mileage, as it fluctuated only around 24-29ppm during sampling over the last 23k+ miles, 25ppm at 9862 miles, 29@4519; 24@7316; 28@11743 but this most recent sample was absolutely the lowest at 14ppm/6722 miles. The previous oil changes/samples were taken from 10-15 months apart and this sample was taken after only 2 months. Indications in this overly simplistic look are that time may be as much or more a factor than simply miles unless the FDM pulled that much iron out of the oil. I've included a few photos below. More photos, associated notes, and the lab report can be seen at this photo sharing site, beginning on page 2.

 

When I first saw this tool, it reminded of an aircraft chip detector (as does the mag drain plug on the FD and trans). If you know what I'm talking about, you know how useful those are. Aircraft chip detectors don't necessarily go for 'chips' but more for fuzz and flakes that may indicate impending part failure (along with a good oil analysis history). Enough build-up produces a caution light so you know to start looking for a place to park and investigate further, and send a sample to the lab for analysis.

 

[bit of useless wondering] I wonder who figured knowing your alternator/generator failing is a need-to-know on the dashboard, but that a gearbox may be self-destructing is something you only find out when things lock up?

 

The unit out of the envelope:

 

installed

 

 

 

 

 

After a week of commuting the material on the tissue came off the FDM.

the amount of material after 2 days, 1600 miles

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

after 10 days, 6200 miles

 

 

 

 

I cleaned the FDM off onto a cloth and then used the cleaned-up drain magnet to see what I could pick up.

So what you see on the drain magnet is material the FDM took out of moving oil, high in the gearbox.

[Jerry Duke]

When you're ready to test a 1200 series FD, I'll be happy to both test one and buy it before testing.

I lost one FD on an R1100 and almost lost one on an R1100S so something like this should be a popular item.

Good luck!

[realshelby]

I need to do some research on the 1200 series final drives. Some have fill plugs that look like it might be easy to make a minder for, some have the fill plug on the backside where it would be hard to make an easily removable indicator. May run over to one of the local tech days in a couple weeks to take some pics and get more info. Hard to develop something like this without the bike in my shop to measure from.

[biometrics]

Put me in the queue either for testing or purchase... I can't see how your device could cause any harm, and collecting metal shavings for periodic removal at "check" time could only be a positive form of preventive maintenance...

 

As an armchair hobby machinist myself, I am quite intrigued by your project. I just can' find the time to put my lathe back together so I can make one myself.

[cris nitro]

I've not been ridiing my bike much the past several months, but when I was riding more, I would pull the "minder" after every ride and all I got was a little fuzz, which I would clean off. Took all of 30 seconds.

 

Thanks again Terry, I'll report back more when I gt back to riding.

 

Cris

[BIWOZ]

If/When you go into production/sales for the 1150RT, I'd be very pleased if you'd let me know, as I would be a definite customer.

 

Regards

Bruce

[Jeff_488]

I, too am interested in one for my '04 RT.

Jeff

[effexer1]

I think that, for the first time, thanks to Realshelby, we're going to see that final drive failure rates are very small. Until now, only the failures have been noted on these boards, and now we're going to get lots of information from owners who have NO failures.

My thoughts are that this will give us more confidence in our rides.

Thanks Terry!!!

[JoelJuers]

This looks like a promising idea. If you don't already have one lined up, I'd be interested in trying a prototype in my R1200C.

[realshelby]

I think that, for the first time, thanks to Realshelby, we're going to see that final drive failure rates are very small. Until now, only the failures have been noted on these boards, and now we're going to get lots of information from owners who have NO failures.

My thoughts are that this will give us more confidence in our rides.

Thanks Terry!!!

 

Steve, you hit the nail on the head with the statement above! While there in no denying that BMW has an issue with final drive assemblies, I don't think owning a BMW automatically means you are going to have to repair the final drive. The whole idea behind the final drive minder....is peace of mind that it will give us a warning of a couple thousand miles at least of any problems that might be developing in a final drive. Especially when on a road trip. I think the attitude about having a final drive repaired would be a lot better if they could be done at the owners leisure instead of after a breakdown in the middle of no where.

[Gruesome]

Somewhat related: apparently the US national highway traffic safety administration is now looking into final drive failures (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=761531).

[KDeline]

 

Steve, you hit the nail on the head with the statement above! While there in no denying that BMW has an issue with final drive assemblies, I don't think owning a BMW automatically means you are going to have to repair the final drive.

 

 

Hmmm...Out of the six oilhead/hexheads I have owned three final drives have failed, with one now showing slight play at the rear wheel. Fifty percent failure rate at this point. You may ride with confedence, me, not so much.

[moped50cc]

I would very much like to have one of your magnet plugs, This sounds like a great idea, Be happy to buy one,I have a 1999 R1100RT with 29000 miles, thanks

[Huzband]

 

 

Hmmm...Out of the six oilhead/hexheads I have owned three final drives have failed, with one now showing slight play at the rear wheel. Fifty percent failure rate at this point. You may ride with confedence, me, not so much.

 

And yet you still ride one.

 

Oh, & me too.

[DFWBo]

Just a quick thanks to Realshelby. The drive minder does add a bit of reassurance. I've done about 5k with mine, check it about every 1000 miles....I see the sludge every time, but no sizeable flakes. Just changed the FD fluid and poured the old oil through a paper towel....same results as I observed each time I checked the minder...I love the tool, one more quick and easy way to do a pre-ride/journey once over and add a bit of peace of mind before heading out.

 

.

[dave sawyer]

Terry,

If you're still looking for testers, I ride a 97 RT with 160,000 miles. No final drive issues so far, and no maintenance other than 6000 miles changes from new. Have used Mobil One from about 20k.

Would love to have an early warning indicator. PM me.

[realshelby]

I recently rode to Limecreeks Austin, Tx tech days. One of the reasons was to look over various later model final drives. I am thinking the models with the "9 O'Clock" drain plug could be fitted with a final drive minder. I would need a volunteer in the Houston area for actual test fitting. The units with the top fill on the backside of the final housing....would be complicated as they couldn't stick out and be removed by hand. Might be a way to make one that is less easily accessed, but with an Allen wrench instead of the knurled knob. Still easy and mess free to check occasionally.

 

I am not selling the units at this time. We are gathering usefull information from the over 30 test units in use. No insurmountable problems so far.

[KDeline]

 

 

Hmmm...Out of the six oilhead/hexheads I have owned three final drives have failed, with one now showing slight play at the rear wheel. Fifty percent failure rate at this point. You may ride with confedence, me, not so much.

 

And yet you still ride one.

 

Oh, & me too.

 

Simply have not found a bike that I like enough to make the change. Plus these bikes are paid for.

[Selden]

I recently rode to Limecreeks Austin, Tx tech days. One of the reasons was to look over various later model final drives. I am thinking the models with the "9 O'Clock" drain plug could be fitted with a final drive minder. I would need a volunteer in the Houston area for actual test fitting. The units with the top fill on the backside of the final housing....would be complicated as they couldn't stick out and be removed by hand. Might be a way to make one that is less easily accessed, but with an Allen wrench instead of the knurled knob. Still easy and mess free to check occasionally.

 

I am not selling the units at this time. We are gathering usefull information from the over 30 test units in use. No insurmountable problems so far.

You must really enjoy what you're doing — a lot of commercial outlets would have put the things into production by now, with far less real world testing. It's a simple concept, brilliantly excecuted. If every one of your testers bought you a beer at a BMW rally, you could end up with a drinking problem.

[mwood7800]

Max bmw shows a magnetic drain plug, am I missing something here?

DIMPLE M12 MAG REAR DRIVE PLUG M12X1.0 0.05 1 $29.90

 

 

Designed to help save BMW rear drives when no regular drain plug is provided. The intense magnet fitted is your only chance of preventing final drive failure. Plug is designed with a small 8mm external hex so the plug could be filled with a large 1/4" diameter magnet. Recessed so it has an area to collect particles. This one plug could save you a lot of grief and cash by extending your final drive's life.

 

 

 

[realshelby]

Max bmw shows a magnetic drain plug, am I missing something here?

DIMPLE M12 MAG REAR DRIVE PLUG M12X1.0 0.05 1 $29.90

 

Designed to help save BMW rear drives when no regular drain plug is provided. The intense magnet fitted is your only chance of preventing final drive failure. Plug is designed with a small 8mm external hex so the plug could be filled with a large 1/4" diameter magnet. Recessed so it has an area to collect particles. This one plug could save you a lot of grief and cash by extending your final drive's life.

 

That plug is for the K bikes as far as I can tell. I don't know much about whether they came with a bottom drain plug or not! Rather bold statement to claim the "intense magnet" is the only chance to prevent failure. I assumed the fill plug is also used as a drain plug on some of those models. At any rate it is simply a method to add a magnet to the bottom plug area to hold metal particles. The Oilheads that I built the final drive Minder for already have the magnet in the drain plug. While it would be a good thing to have a magnet down there, I wouldn't be too sure it will prevent failures. By the time the magnet is seeing the particles the damage/failure is already coming.

 

The concept behind the "Minder" is to detect the earliest signs of failure by showing the owner the small solid slivers/chunks of metal that are the first signs of bearing, race, or other metal failure. You simply cannot see this using a drain plug with a magnet. Unless you drop your final drive oil every few hundred miles to inspect it ( not likely! ). By mounting the Minder above the oil level when parked, you are able to remove the indicator from the base. The indicator has the magnet in the end of it. You simply inspect the magnet for signs of metal shavings and seeing none reinsert the minder into the base and ride away. It won't prevent failure. It could prevent ROADSIDE failures by detecting the signs of failure in time for the owner to decide where/when they can get it fixed.

 

I will be looking into ways to fit the later models ( K, R 1200 ) with a way to check for metal particles. It is not as simple as it is on the Oilhead final drives.

[mwood7800]

It says it for the RT, and goes in the same hole . But I was wrong once 50 yr ago

[realshelby]

It says it for the RT, and goes in the same hole . But I was wrong once 50 yr ago

 

The fill/drain plug on the 1200 RT and GS that is at the 9 O'Clock position is 12mm so it might fit an RT there. However, the fill plug on an Oilhead final drive housing is a 14mm x 1.5 thread.

[GregsARed]

 

Piece of Mind…

That’s what I ‘m looking for.

 

I was reluctantly, yet seriously thinking about having my FD rebuilt this winter. I‘ve had no problems with it and nothing other than hearing of all those other failures gives me cause for concern. Well there may be one legitimate concern, 279,000 miles of use.

I’ve been looking for wear: magnetic drain plug buildup, filtering used fluids and that grey sludge which settles, with time, to the bottom of a clear container; nothing abnormal.

I’d like to have the skills and time and tools and space to do this rebuild myself but don’t, so I’m left with trailering it to a reputable BMW mechanic. That mechanic is 100 miles away, so two 200 mile round trips, two hours each way (ttl 8 hrs), labor plus parts. High costs for preventive maintenance (but cheaper than a roadside breakdown five miles outside of Timbukto).

 

So Mr. Terry,

I don’t know if you’re looking for anymore testers, I don’t know if you’ want it tested on a well used ‘99 R1100RT (orig. owner), I do know I would like a Final Drive Minder, for piece of mind.

Rather than pay the costs of the preventive rebuild, I would rather contribute ($) towards the die needed to stamp “Terry’s Final Drive Minder” on each bolt head.

My preference would be for the short slotted model, preferably w/o the slot.

 

Wonderful Idea,

Thanks.

Greg.

(You can also PM me)

 

 

BTW: Timbuktu is another one of those towns w/o a BMW dealership

 

[PAS]

Next project should be a magnet that can be placed in the clutch spline area to catch magnet dust. To warn of a failing spline.

 

When will your minders be for sale?

[realshelby]

Patience Grasshopper!

[ElevenFifty]

It's a simple concept, brilliantly excecuted. If every one of your testers bought you a beer at a BMW rally, you could end up with a drinking problem.

 

...and as happy as we are to have these things, it would be a hell of a party! ;~) This is the only thing I can remember getting for free and then waiting to see how much someone would allow me to pay for it! When you finally do set a price, my bet is that you'll get money from all of us "beta-testers".

[Selden]

...I was reluctantly, yet seriously thinking about having my FD rebuilt this winter. I‘ve had no problems with it and nothing other than hearing of all those other failures gives me cause for concern. Well there may be one legitimate concern, 279,000 miles of use....

Having just finished a major service on my 99 RT, these are wonderful words to my eyes. It's good to hear from someone here who is not having FD problems.

[Armando]

It's a simple concept, brilliantly excecuted. If every one of your testers bought you a beer at a BMW rally, you could end up with a drinking problem.

 

...and as happy as we are to have these things, it would be a hell of a party! ;~) This is the only thing I can remember getting for free and then waiting to see how much someone would allow me to pay for it! When you finally do set a price, my bet is that you'll get money from all of us "beta-testers".

 

+1 - I have asked and his very nice response was "Consider it a Christmas Gift".

 

 

a

[BeemerLover]

Here is another opportunity, adapt your existing concept for the R1200RT but add some sort of vent. As I understand it the 1150 drives are vented while the early 1200's were not. As the oil gets hot from driving it creates pressure and it wants to seep through the seals on these 1200's. then when the FD cools it forms a vacuum. That is the reason BMW went from 220ml to 180ml for final drive oil changes. Adding a vent would prevent seeping through the seals and prolong the life of the FD. I think they added a vent on the later 1200's?

 

Anyway you'd get a lot of attention from the hexhead guys if you offered this.

 

[realshelby]

I have not had an '05 up 1200 at my garage to do any test fitting. I do think it might be possible to make a final drive minder for those that have the fill plug at the 9 o'clock position.

 

I do have one of the CL series oilheads ( cruisers ) running a minder. Their final drives are not vented either. We are wanting to know if the release of pressure when you check the final drive when hot will help those final drives to stop "weeping" oil from pressure also. IF the final drive holds a small amount of vacuum after it cools down it would relieve some of the pressure at operating temperature.