Rethinking " loud pipes -save lives"

[boxerboy11]

I will guarantee you the sound is directional all right. Look where they put a loud harley in a group ride. Always in the back of the group cause nobody wants to be behind one. Behind you they can barely be heard unless the jerk raps the throttle hard but in front of you is down right nasty.

[Pilgrim]

Ditch the horn. Take it off - throw it far away. Don't even remember you ever had one. Time you spend hitting a button is better spent in other activities when disaster impends. If you need it then you weren't looking far enough ahead in time and you're probably too far up the creek for it to help, anyway.

 

I've said this before, but honest go gosh, that "loud pipes save lives" mantra started as a sarcastic joke 30 years ago. I was there and remember the helmet stickers showing up. Somehow, it gained a degree of respect as received wisdom. No Harley freak I know who has more than ten thousand miles under his belt takes it seriously.

 

Pilgrim

[Pilgrim]

Of course, there are times when I'd like to give the jerk tailgating behind me a blast of something.

Ben

 

Which reminds me of Jay Leno's turbine bike (in case you haven't heard of them they're powered by a remanufactured turbine normally use in Bell Jet Ranger helicopter.) He was interviewed about riding it and observed that it's fun, when some idiot pulls up too close behind him at a light, to just roll on the throttle and melt his bumper.

 

Pilgrim

[RockBottom]

Only those people who have never ridden a bike with loud pipes would argue that it doesn't get a cagers attention. Even if they are in front of you.

 

I know this because I routinely saw heads turn up and twist around, in cars ahead of me, as I approached because, yes, I had loud pipes and they apparently heard me coming.

 

I don't care what the insurance companies or AMA says. I doubt that they ever did a scientific study that could measured accurately.

 

Loud pipes may not save lives, but they sure help get you noticed.

 

I've had more close calls from cars pulling into my lane while riding what my HD friends call my "sewing machine", than I ever had on my Harleys.

 

As I mentioned above, if you want to believe that all traffic safety professionals are grossly incompetent (which is what they'd be if they failed to investigate something that demonstrably increased safety), you're certainly free to. I personally don't. But do remember that something that simply gets attention doesn't automatically increase safety. If you rode with a naked inflatable woman on your pillion it would increase attention but not safety.

[Selden]

If you rode with a naked inflatable woman on your pillion it would increase attention but not safety.

I saw one of those once -- "she" certainly got my attention.

[RockBottom]

Let me try to distill the point I'm attempting to make into a logic statement or equation.

 

We KNOW this statement is true:

 

"The traffic safety industry, including government agencies, nongovernment traffic safety agencies, and the private insurance industry, does NOT subscribe to the idea that loudness increases safety on a motorcycle."

 

Given that, for THIS statement to be true:

 

"Loudness increases safety on a motorcycle."

 

Then this statement would also HAVE to be true:

 

"The traffic safety industry is derelict or negligent on a major point of motorcycle safety."

 

Hence there are only two logical possibilities: 1. The traffic safety industry is derelict or negligent on a major point of motorcycle safety; or 2. Loudness does not increase safety on a motorcycle.

[w2ge]

Let me try to distill the point I'm attempting to make into a logic statement or equation.

 

We KNOW this statement is true:

 

"The traffic safety industry, including government agencies, nongovernment traffic safety agencies, and the private insurance industry, does NOT subscribe to the idea that loudness increases safety on a motorcycle."

 

Given that, for THIS statement to be true:

 

"Loudness increases safety on a motorcycle."

 

Then this statement would also HAVE to be true:

 

"The traffic safety industry is derelict or negligent on a major point of motorcycle safety."

 

Hence there are only two logical possibilities: 1. The traffic safety industry is derelict or negligent on a major point of motorcycle safety; or 2. Loudness does not increase safety on a motorcycle.

 

See... this is what happens when a PhD gets involved... now look what you've done OP!)

[Kathy R]

I don't understand why men with comb overs don't realize how they look to the rest of us, but you can't convince them otherwise. It's the same with loud pipes.

 

If you ride as if you think people see you or hear you you are on borrowed time.

[RockBottom]

I don't understand why men with comb overs don't realize how they look to the rest of us, but you can't convince them otherwise. It's the same with loud pipes.

 

If you ride as if you think people see you or hear you you are on borrowed time.

 

Gee--and now you have to attack those of us who are folically challenged!

[Kathy R]

Gee--and now you have to attack those of us who are folically challenged!

 

No....just comb overs.

 

[SuperG]

Hee-heee... good one!

BUt comb-overs and motorcyclists (helmeted) does not fit in the same sentence. Imagine what would Donald Trump look like after he takes off his helmet.

 

Guys, OP here. lots of good info filled the pages in this tread. I like reading it. Different perspective from different folks.

 

Some good info to chew over and think about.

 

I must say certain things are not possible as mentioned, such as pull forward or ride front of the car.

Of course in most cases it is possible and should be done, yeah ditch the cager! The scenario I was in ( and when the unwanted cager lane change taken place) was in heavy traffic. All lanes filled with cars ( front and back) lanes surge forward and back, different vehicle next to me. NO room to pull forward, if I fall back more than a car length someone will want to pull in take that spot.

I had to go with the flow of traffic.

 

I am not a fan of loud bike, boat or cars. I used to like it but I aged out of it.

On my dirtbike the noise fatigues me, I wear ear plugs all the time.

I have to agree, if a car driver has radio on or on the phone, loud motorcycle pipe will not make any difference.

[RockBottom]

Imagine what would Donald Trump look like after he takes off his helmet.

 

He wouldn't need a helmet--his head is not a vital organ.

[outpost22]

Let me try to distill the point I'm attempting to make into a logic statement or equation.

 

We KNOW this statement is true:

 

"The traffic safety industry, including government agencies, nongovernment traffic safety agencies, and the private insurance industry, does NOT subscribe to the idea that loudness increases safety on a motorcycle."

 

Given that, for THIS statement to be true:

 

"Loudness increases safety on a motorcycle."

 

Then this statement would also HAVE to be true:

 

"The traffic safety industry is derelict or negligent on a major point of motorcycle safety."

 

Hence there are only two logical possibilities: 1. The traffic safety industry is derelict or negligent on a major point of motorcycle safety; or 2. Loudness does not increase safety on a motorcycle.

 

See... this is what happens when a PhD gets involved... now look what you've done OP!)

 

Yeah, but it didn't take a "rocket scientist" to reach this conclusion either

[tallman]

Not possible?

If you can't move forward so that you are riding adjacent to the car's front windshield instead of off the rear bumper than there is a bigger problem, again, IMO.

Sitting in a blind spot, or are where the pillar interferes with them seeing you and you seeing them move is just waiting for a problem.

If you can't pull forward then you are too close to the car ahead of you and trapped by the car next to you.

In that case, m-o-v-e and don't choose to ride there. This is all based on the statement of lane/car position mentioned earlier as a chosen placement and not in reference to a fast changing urban limited access situation that changes and momentarily puts you in that lane position.

Almost always there is a way get to a safer position wrt vehicle next to you.

Larry, maybe you ride the sewing machine differently than the HD?

Faster?

Best wishes.

[w2ge]

I always try to ride in that safe zone... I either have to speed up or slow down but get in a "safety zone." (re: cars around me)

 

Interesting thing is NO MATTER what happens, you can NEVER control what others do, so the only thing you can do is ASK YOURSELF: "What could I have done different? I mean even if the other driver was TOTALLY at fault, a total a-hole.. still... You can only control what you do (In everything in life as well! i.e. fight with a co-worker, spouse, WHATEVER) and ask, "What could I have done different?

[James Clark]

Russ' point hit home today. I literally saw a woman pull out and cut off a fire truck, screaming down the road, all horns and sirens blazing. By the time she realized what she had done, said truck had to swerve (a scary sight) into oncoming traffic, which in turn swerved to avoid said truck. She wasn't on the phone, or very old. Just completely ***unaware.*** So my retina-melting jacket color, Stebel horn, and all the whiz-bank lights... Puhleeze!

 

So if light and siren packages are so ineffectual, why not spend that money on something useful instead?

[Quinn]

I would think that the AMA and others don't recommend loud pipes because they're illegal. Even if the law is not enforced, they're still illegal. Same reason they don't recommend shooting all the cars around you with a paintball gun to get their attention.

 

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[RockBottom]

I would think that the AMA and others don't recommend loud pipes because they're illegal. Even if the law is not enforced, they're still illegal. Same reason they don't recommend shooting all the cars around you with a paintball gun to get their attention.

 

----

 

 

They are only illegal beyond a certain point. If noise equated to safety, we could expect the traffic safety industry--assuming it's not negligent and derelict--to recommend motorcycles up to the legal noise limit and probably to lobby for higher legal noise standards. Neither of those things happen. We would also expect a lower accident rate among Harleys than other, less noisy brands. That also doesn't happen.

[RockBottom]

Not possible?

If you can't move forward so that you are riding adjacent to the car's front windshield instead of off the rear bumper than there is a bigger problem, again, IMO.

Sitting in a blind spot, or are where the pillar interferes with them seeing you and you seeing them move is just waiting for a problem.

If you can't pull forward then you are too close to the car ahead of you and trapped by the car next to you.

In that case, m-o-v-e and don't choose to ride there. This is all based on the statement of lane/car position mentioned earlier as a chosen placement and not in reference to a fast changing urban limited access situation that changes and momentarily puts you in that lane position.

Almost always there is a way get to a safer position wrt vehicle next to you.

Larry, maybe you ride the sewing machine differently than the HD?

Faster?

Best wishes.

 

There are times when I'm entering or leaving Washington during rush hour when traffic is so heavy that it is impossible to stay out of blind spots all together. (Going through Frederick, MD on Rt 270 is particularly bad). The best I can do is minimize it.

[RockBottom]

And since we've mixed anecdotes with logic in this thread, let me add my own. Even being a rider, I came very close to pulling out in front of a bike last year. The bike itself was black on black, the rider was wearing all black including a bandana and had on dark sunglasses. It was like he intended to be as invisible as possible to people in cars.

 

After I slammed on the brakes and he passed by me, I heard and felt the straight pipes.

[RockBottom]

See... this is what happens when a PhD gets involved... now look what you've done OP!)

 

Yeah, but it didn't take a "rocket scientist" to reach this conclusion either

 

I'm more of a racket scientist.

[Mr. Mixer]

In the middle 90's I was riding an old Sportster on the DC beltway in the center right lane with a car in the lane to my right. I was even with the driver. The bike had straight pipes and we were running about 70MPH, so I know the sound pressure level (SPL, or volume) was quite high. The woman driving the car turned her head and looked right at me and proceeded to turn on her blinker and steer right into my lane. Perhaps she was irritated by the sound and was just showing her displeasure by trying to kill me, but I really got the impression that she was completely unaware of my presence. I stopped riding in this area that day because I thought that if the loudness of my exhaust did not help increase my safety, nothing would.

 

I did not ride a bike until I bought an 1150RT last summer that is as quiet as a 'sewing machine'. As of this morning I had put close to 9K miles on it and while I have had a few incidents, they were all by folks that were paying no attention to what was going on around them at all, a jet engine ala Jay Leno would have made little or no difference.

 

I have noticed that my riding style is very different than it was years ago, I'm both more aggressive and less so. I'm much more about putting the bike where there is a some hope that I won't get run over, and very much less aggressive about maintaining my personal space. I'll yeld to anything that intrudes on my space, usually (as recommended above) with a twist of my wrist to get as far away from them as possible.

[JonathanE]

I don't understand why men with comb overs don't realize how they look to the rest of us, but you can't convince them otherwise. It's the same with loud pipes.

 

If you ride as if you think people see you or hear you you are on borrowed time.

 

Best post in this whole "discussion".

 

FWIW, while I enjoy using my Stebel air horn on my GS when appropriate, my VFR horn is entirely worthless. I can barely hear it myself with earplugs in. I ride both bikes the same way. No horn has ever saved my a$$, since so far I have always been able to get out of the cage's way before I even think about honking the horn. Expecting that a horn or any other aural or visual stimulous will keep you safe on a ride in traffic just putting your life in the hands of cage and truck drivers. Why would anyone do that?

 

Ride aggressively. Be aware of all threats. Stay away from danger. Control your own destiny.

 

When I can no longer control my own destiny, I will stop riding.

[DiggerJim]

.....because they're illegal. Even if the law is not enforced, they're still illegal. Same reason they don't recommend shooting all the cars around you with a paintball gun to get their attention.

Ummmmmm....that's illegal? The best part of a Ural is having someplace to mount a paintball machinegun to mark cars with inattentive drivers...

[leikam]

I've said this before, but honest go gosh, that "loud pipes save lives" mantra started as a sarcastic joke 30 years ago.

 

I've also heard this from other guys who have been riding harleys since the stone age. It's just not a serious proposition.

 

Making noise is a poor substitute for riding well.

[leikam]

The scenario I was in ( and when the unwanted cager lane change taken place) was in heavy traffic. All lanes filled with cars ( front and back) lanes surge forward and back, different vehicle next to me. NO room to pull forward, if I fall back more than a car length someone will want to pull in take that spot.

 

So what? You could have left 5 car lengths ahead of you and dropped back as people filled in. If you do this, nobody will have any reason to change lanes into you.

 

The vast majority of car drivers change lanes for their own advantage. Open space isn't enough to tempt them. In the slower lane, you can leave huge gaps ahead of you and nobody will jump into it because they don't perceive an advantage. I've done this on the freeways here. The ones who do jump in get out just as quickly once they realize that they can't merge back into a faster lane ahead of where they were. In the faster lane, if you leave big gaps, everybody jumps in until the lane is overcrowded and slows down. In either case, all you need is patience and the willpower to maintain an excessive distance from the car ahead.

 

I had to go with the flow of traffic.

 

No, you didn't. Denying your own agency doesn't make it go away.

[FLrider]

 

Larry, maybe you ride the sewing machine differently than the HD?

Faster?

Best wishes.

 

Ha Ha ! You got that right. No matter what I did to the the carbs, cams, fuel supply etc., the Hogs are pigs when it comes to speed.

 

My wife keeps telling me we should sell the RT and buy another Ultra. I just don't think I can do it.... She loves the comfort, I love the speed and engineering.

 

[RockBottom]

 

Larry, maybe you ride the sewing machine differently than the HD?

Faster?

Best wishes.

 

Ha Ha ! You got that right. No matter what I did to the the carbs, cams, fuel supply etc., the Hogs are pigs when it comes to speed.

 

My wife keeps telling me we should sell the RT and buy another Ultra. I just don't think I can do it.... She loves the comfort, I love the speed and engineering.

 

I was taking my gear off in the parking lot at work last week when a guy walked by and said, "You gonna trade that thing for a Harley?" I said, "Naw--I don't think I can ride that slow."

[w2ge]

^^HeHe ;-)