Dyna Beads

[Mark K]

.....On the other hand, there are a large number of folk on this board that swear by never balancing at all.

 

This suggests to me that proper balance is not discernible by ride feel.......

 

 

That's me!

 

I do use Ride-On for (perhaps) some flat protection. Maybe there is some help there with balancing as well? I honestly don't notice the difference after having my wheels and tires balanced at three different locations prior to me going solo.

 

 

[jjg3]

The Military has used this method of ballancing highspeed tires for years. It is not new. I use it in my aircraft

 

Interesting... 20 years in the Army driving 1/4 tons (jeeps) to HEMTTs, and working in Army aviation for 16 of those, I'd never heard of this. Of course it's possible everyone else knew and I just didn't.

 

I guess the OP gets the message. This is all over the place. Same category as the best oil and tires. If you want to try it, what the heck, it's cheap, try it and see if it works for you.

[johnlt]

Fortunately the one thing I have not heard anyone say is that "I tried it and it made it worse". Or even "I had a noticably out of ballance tire and I put the dyna beads in and it did not help".

[tomk99r11]

What I find particularly interesting is that the people most adamant that DB's can't/don't/won't work have never tried them. And, they diss those who use the beads. Remarkable response. I have mounted and balanced my tires for years, have a Parnes balancer, and used the DB's in both tubed and tubeless tires. In my experience the beads work, and work well.

[JayW]

What I find particularly interesting is that the people most adamant that DB's can't/don't/won't work have never tried them. And, they diss those who use the beads. Remarkable response...

 

What is remarkable about it? Why do I have to personally try something to make a determination about whether or not it will work? What is wrong with basing an assessment based upon the test results of respected groups like MCN?

 

As another example, I can tell you that homeopathic medicine does not work based upon very compelling evidence and a study of how it is (allegedly) supposed to bring about healing. I don't need to try it, and certainly will not do so. No doubt there are those who swear by it anyway, but anecdotal evidence does not impress me.

 

The evidence against DynaBeads is not as clear cut as it is against homeopathy, but that's beside the point.

 

Just sayin'

 

Jay (MD)

[Twisties]

Fortunately the one thing I have not heard anyone say is that "I tried it and it made it worse". Or even "I had a noticably out of ballance tire and I put the dyna beads in and it did not help".

 

Quite a few such responses out on the web.

[Paul Mihalka]

"What I find particularly interesting is that the people most adamant that DB's can't/don't/won't work have never tried them."

Problem is that trying the Dyna Beads would not be conclusive either. I often have used tires without balancing and they felt perfectly OK, so adding the beads would not prove anything unless they make it worse. The only test that would really count, is mounting a out-of-balance wheel/tire on a high speed balancer, add the beads and see what happens.

[johnlt]

Only 4 pages so far. Doesn't even hold a candle to "Best tires" or "Best oil" threads

[JayW]

Only 4 pages so far. Doesn't even hold a candle to "Best tires" or "Best oil" threads

 

Maybe this lousy weather has us all bored. If we can't ride, might as well post somethin'...

[ltljohn]

"What I find particularly interesting is that the people most adamant that DB's can't/don't/won't work have never tried them."

Problem is that trying the Dyna Beads would not be conclusive either. I often have used tires without balancing and they felt perfectly OK, so adding the beads would not prove anything unless they make it worse. The only test that would really count, is mounting a out-of-balance wheel/tire on a high speed balancer, add the beads and see what happens.

 

Paul and Jan have said it best, real lab testing from an unbiased source is the only thing that will settle this issue, anything else is just speculation. My $.02.

 

Let's get on to an easier to decide issue,

 

Ford or Chevy which is better and does synthetic or dino make a difference in your choice?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

The only test that would really count, is mounting a out-of-balance wheel/tire on a high speed balancer, add the beads and see what happens.

 

I'm not even sure this would work. Assuming the beads actually work, the only way they can possibly "know" a tire is out of balance is if the wheel is hopping, at least a little bit. This should be true even after the beads have settled in a location that improves balance; there has to be some up/down movement of the wheel as it rotates - even if it's imperceptibly small for the rider - otherwise the beads aren't going to stay put.

 

If the wheel is prevented from any up/down movement by being hard-mounted to a ballasted spin-balancer, I don't think the beads will have the "signal" they need to tell them where exactly to settle inside the tire.

[jjg3]

What I find particularly interesting is that the people most adamant that DB's can't/don't/won't work have never tried them. And, they diss those who use the beads.

 

Don't think I dissed anyone for using them (not that you're pointing the finger at me, just saying), only that I didn't understand the science behind it, and thus posted the Mythbuster link that made some sense of it to me (and also explains why a balancer might not work and on-wheel would... if it works). But the current last post there is by someone I know (a coworker) and he posted this:

 

"I have some empirical data. When I installed new Michelin Pilot Road 2s on my FJR1300, I used Dynabeads as per the manufacturers instructions. The front wheel vibrated badly at highway speeds. The rear not so much. After a week, I pulled the front wheel and emptied the beads out. I then used a precision static balancer and added the typical lead balance weights. The front wheel has been vibration free since then.

 

Whatever the physics are purported to explain their effectiveness, they didn't work for me. They won't be getting any more of my money."

 

I would still say if you're curious try it. Either it will work for you or not. If it does, that's great. Heck, maybe drop a few BBs in the tire and see what happens.

[Peter Parts]

"Automatic" balancing is one of the few "magic bullets" I've watched over the years - many years. Any time I've tried to figure out the physics, it looks backwards. Liquid stuff didn't seem to help balance and that should work same as DBs, I'd think. Tire shops sure hate the stuff.

 

Shouldn't the DBs do their trick on a dynamic balance machine? Anybody know?

 

Shouldn't it be easy to experiment that way - like adding weights to throw off the balance and seeing what the DBs do to correct?

 

Quite astonishing how well balanced modern tires are right out of the crate. I try to balance my rims and then see what the tires do to change the balance. Sometimes the rims are worse than the tires.

 

As a guy who loves the great balance on /2 bikes, sad to see how much imbalance some riders will tolerate in their engines, as if their weak benchmark came from certain mis-balanced engine forms like 45-degree Vs. Same must be kind of true for wheel balance. In days of yore when tank slappers (and hence soiled underwear) were known to happen from time to time, riders developed a sensitivity to sensing imbalance and a very strong intolerance of imbalance.

 

Ben

snow in Toronto - my new BT023s will have to wait to be installed for a while

 

 

[Penforhire]

The best test would probably be out-of-balance wheels on a bike equipped with some sort of vibratory sensor on the lower forks. Run that bike over the same stretch of road, stepping through a range of speeds, and compare the vibration log with and without beads. Repeat that test with more typical in-balance wheels.

 

I can say that as-recommended amount of Ride-On fluid in my tubes didn't unbalance my '73 R75/5 SWB at any speeds up to 100 MPH. I wouldn't say my ride vibration improved but only that it wasn't noticeably changed (and was very smooth at all times, having rebuilt & aligned my front end).

[tomk99r11]

My experiment with DB's was several years ago. I bought my Parnes balancer after having a makeshift set up that seemed to work well with typical stick on weights. When I got the Parnes, I also got some DB's and decided to conduct an experiment. I mounted a tubeless tire in the standard way, marked alignment, spun tire on the balance shaft, addedd stick-on wts, etc. The bike vibrated more than I thought it should. I took off the wheel, took off the stick-ons, made sure the tire was mounted in the same postion on the wheel, and added DB's. The difference was immediately obvious, the DB's made it smooth as could be. I was then, and am not now, a novice at tire mounting/balancing/mounting. I conducted a similar experiment with tubed tires, with the same result and conclusion. Personally I could not care less how someone balances their tires. I do resent the put down of those who know the results I acheived through their own experience. Use them if you like, don't use them, but don't make the assumption anyone who uses DB;s is an idiot without having tried them youself.

[Peter Parts]

My experiment with DB's was several years ago. I bought my Parnes balancer after having a makeshift set up that seemed to work well with typical stick on weights. When I got the Parnes, I also got some DB's and decided to conduct an experiment. I mounted a tubeless tire in the standard way, marked alignment, spun tire on the balance shaft, addedd stick-on wts, etc. The bike vibrated more than I thought it should. I took off the wheel, took off the stick-ons, made sure the tire was mounted in the same postion on the wheel, and added DB's. The difference was immediately obvious, the DB's made it smooth as could be. I was then, and am not now, a novice at tire mounting/balancing/mounting. I conducted a similar experiment with tubed tires, with the same result and conclusion. Personally I could not care less how someone balances their tires. I do resent the put down of those who know the results I acheived through their own experience. Use them if you like, don't use them, but don't make the assumption anyone who uses DB;s is an idiot without having tried them youself.

 

In that case, you just might really resent what I have to say:

 

my understanding is that the DBs and similar stuff can only work when the wheel is spinning at a fair clip. So, whatever you experienced, just might be due to other factors.

 

A dynamic balancer spins the wheel pretty fast. So the DBs should show their stuff, if that kind of stuff works.

 

Likewise, a dynamic balancer gives a reading in exactly the weight needed to re-balance a wheel (or at least what it thinks exactly is needed). But using the butt-meter, which some people think is the gold-standard, depends on whether there is much to feel. And if there is only subtle effects, then on how much you trust your intuitions - the evidence is that people who have real big faith in their intuitions tend to be fooling themselves the most (research of Dan Ariely of Duke University).

 

Ben

 

for a real bit of comedy, look up the debate between the "golden ears" and the "meter readers" about whether expensive audio cables make a difference (hint: none at all).

[FlyingFinn]

Shouldn't the DBs do their trick on a dynamic balance machine? Anybody know?

 

DB's work because the suspension of the bike, in most cases, allows the wheel to move up-down as "pulled" by the fast rotating unbalanced wheel.

 

If the balancing machine does not allow for similar up-down movement, the beads would not work.

 

Even on a bike the beads interact with suspension of the bike. Certain spring and damping characteristics combined with speed, weight and size of the wheel and amount of beads in the tire can obviously sometimes result in dynamics that are less than perfect.

 

--

Mikko

[johnlt]

Glad you jumped in there Mikko, I was afraid this thread was about to die

[FlyingFinn]

Hey, it's mid winter even here in Cal.

No good oil threads going on so this seemed like the best place to kill some time.

 

--

Mikko

[tomk99r11]

Spring better get here quickly before we kill each other!

[Peter Parts]

Shouldn't the DBs do their trick on a dynamic balance machine? Anybody know?

 

DB's work because the suspension of the bike, in most cases, allows the wheel to move up-down as "pulled" by the fast rotating unbalanced wheel.

 

If the balancing machine does not allow for similar up-down movement, the beads would not work.

 

Even on a bike the beads interact with suspension of the bike. Certain spring and damping characteristics combined with speed, weight and size of the wheel and amount of beads in the tire can obviously sometimes result in dynamics that are less than perfect.

 

--

Mikko

 

I can't say if that is a plausible theory or not. But my impression is that some dynamic balancers I've seen do let the wheel shake* although perhaps not quite like a suspension - or one of the many kinds of suspensions on vehicles, planes, etc).

 

There has to be somebody around this forum with easy access to a dynamic balancer and a handful of ball bearings or even Dyna Beans (I have bag or two of DBs sitting around waiting to sneak them into a tire when my specialist tire installer isn't looking).

 

Ben

 

*some sensors are force-, acceleration-, and some are movement-sensitive

[johnlt]

Can't find anything on Snopes, I guess we'll have to resort to Myth Busters to take a look

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

is interesting...

[VinnyR11]

is interesting...

 

Interesting. I thought perhaps the weight was just displacing an equal volume (similar weight) of beads thus evening things out, but I'm pretty sure they used a 0.7 oz weight and 1.0 oz of beads so that wouldn't be enough.

 

I'm wondering if they put the weight on the outside of the bottle would the result be the same? More importantly and much more meaningful, it would be cool to see a vastly larger (tire sized would be nice) clear container and check the results.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Interesting. I thought perhaps the weight was just displacing an equal volume (similar weight) of beads thus evening things out, but I'm pretty sure they used a 0.7 oz weight and 1.0 oz of beads so that wouldn't be enough.

 

I'm wondering if they put the weight on the outside of the bottle would the result be the same?

 

I think the weight is on the outside; notice the tape-wrap.

[CoarsegoldKid]

Every time I go to use my cordless Ryobi it needs charging.

[Linz]

You need DB's Joe. My Ryobi is always ready to use.

 

Linz

[VinnyR11]

Interesting. I thought perhaps the weight was just displacing an equal volume (similar weight) of beads thus evening things out, but I'm pretty sure they used a 0.7 oz weight and 1.0 oz of beads so that wouldn't be enough.

 

I'm wondering if they put the weight on the outside of the bottle would the result be the same?

 

I think the weight is on the outside; notice the tape-wrap.

 

No clue how I missed that. In that case, whether or not someone believes in it, I think it's a test that shows potential validity to the claims.

[Quinn]

is interesting...

 

Definately not the result I would have expected. Might be fun to try it with other stuff inside the bottle. Would it work with sand or water, or slime or bbs?

 

----

 

 

[RiceToy]

I've been using Dynabeads in both front and rear of the RT for years, and they always work great. I have had the opportunity to mount the tires, spin on a digital dynamic balancer at the local cycle shop Cycle Steve's in Evansville, IN (happens to have a car tire balancer with a motorcycle adapter). It went like this: old tire was removed and replaced. With the weights still attached the wheel was spun on the balancer and came up perfect, no adjustment necessary. We removed the weights from the wheel and spun again - perfect again. There is no doubt that they work. Dynabead website describes why they work, and its a simple explanation, there are YouTube videos showing how they work, and numerous postings from happy users verifying same. I've run them in Metzlers, Michelin Macadam's and currently in the Pilot Road 2's - all work great. If you're opposed to the idea of the beads, balance the traditional way. But know its not some urban myth, illegitimate claim, snake oil, etc.

[CoarsegoldKid]

 

Would it work with sand or water, or slime or bbs?

I would guess sand and bb's would also work. Polyethylene beads might also work. But not sure where one would get them.

 

In the video the bottle is spun at a high rate of speed rather quickly. There is some wobble until the balance speed is achieved. How that equates to wheel speed is anyone's guess. Slow speed may not matter. For highway use it looks good.

When I balance my tires statically between 3 and 4 7.5gram weights are used so perhaps 1oz is the correct amount of whatever goes in.

 

 

[Boffin]

I have only one objection to Dyna Beads, liquid balancers, etc. The tyres are not designed to run with the weight inside them. I do not know if this has any impact or not, but I do not like the idea of operating equipment with such a large impact on safety outside of its designed operating environment. If static balancing with stick-on weights is good enough for MotoGP teams, it is good enough for me.

 

Andy

[tallman]

Rice Toy,

Unless I misread your post, there wasn't a control in your experiment.

You would need to mount a new tire and spin it first to see if somehow that combo was "in balance" w/out the need for weights.

If it was in balance, no weight or beads needed.

(not too likely with dynamic balancer, but possible).

If out of balance, remove tire, add beads, and remount in exactly the same place.

If they work for that tire and wheel combo then no further changew would be needed.

If weight had been needed, and added to balance, it would seem that the beads would not have to do anything since the wheel was already in balance.

[RiceToy]

Tallman,

 

In response to, "...there wasn't a control in your experiment...", this is true, since it wasn't an experiment; more of an observation after neglecting to remove the stick-on wheel weights. From what I can tell, it doesn't matter how you weight the wheel (within reason), provided you have enough DynaBeads to offset the otherwise out of balance condition.

 

About the idea of using liquid or sand or BB's. Seems reasonable these might work. If it were liquid, would have to be something non-corrosive, with low viscosity, low vapor point, etc - probably not the best choice since common liquids like water, oil, antifreeze, soap, etc. are not good candidates). Sand might work, especialy if you could shape the grains to be smooth spheres, so as not to sand-down the inside of the tire, also need to maintain the integrity of the grains - since this would be difficult maybe also not the best choice. BB's would work well I think, provided they were very small, and were made of stainless - don't want them rusting together in there. The DynaBeads are very tiny maybe 1 or 2mm diameter ceramic spheres, which makes them non-rusting, non-abrasive, non-corrosive, extremely hard, and heavy for their size. They move against each other very easily almost like water (angle of repose is likely much lower than that of sand). Meanwhile, they are very hard, unlike even stainless steel that would surely weardown inside a tire from rubbing together. When you remove the DynaBeads to re-use them, they do come out a bit smaller. I usually scoop-out what I can, and "top-off" with new ones to make the 2oz. (if I remember correctly) recommended for front and rear of RT.

 

Use them or not - they work great.

[hopz]

I have been waiting for the committee to make a final decision and issue a verdict.....?