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Oil and Water don't mix


yabadabapal

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Joe Frickin' Friday
Supertankers skimming the surface sure seems like a possible solution.

 

Except supertankers aren't very maneuverable when it comes to following the slick, and you would still need some way to gather the oil to a point where the tanekr could vacuum it up out of the gulf. If you extend a boom half a mile to either side of a tanker to gather a scaled-up quantity of oil, the curtain under the boom will also have to hang deeper below the surface to prevent oil from escaping under it.

 

Smaller skimmer boats sent out in large numbers seem to be the way to go. I could see having a few tankers stationed at regular intervals in the spill zone for the small skimmeres to offload their collection tanks.

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yabadabapal

Wow. I read it all. Thanks for putting that up. Important!

 

Im thinking BP will have a bill of about 50 billion dollars over the next 10 years for this mess. Even that will not clean this up.

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John Ranalletta

If Obama strong armed them into the $20b fund, could BP say, "We've settled with the President." At any rate, it'll be interesting to see how voluntary or politically coerced payments are factored into court judgments.

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yabadabapal

I believe that The PM and other assorted members of the British Parliament may have had more than a few words of suggestible advise for the BP representatives prior to their meeting with Obama.

The 20 billion is a deposit as far as Im concerned and a temporary pacifier.

 

Just got this. No Cap in first BP escrow of 20 billion.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/16/gulf.oil.disaster/?hpt=T2

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Just as soon as my sell order for Nortel at 10.75 executes (bought at 8.25) I'm going to take the profit and place a buy order for BP at 36.85.

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John Ranalletta
Just as soon as my sell order for Nortel at 10.75 executes (bought at 8.25) I'm going to take the profit and place a buy order for BP at 36.85.
I think you can do a tax free exchange for Woolworth preferreds.
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When integrity gets you fired.

 

"Simmons sees BP at $0 and expects nukes to be deployed to clean it up its mess;

Simmons & Co. on the other hand upgrades BP to a Buy on Friday with a $52 PT.

Should pretty much explain it." (zerohedge.com)

 

Simmons & Co. says why it fired its chairman

 

What Mr. Simmons says about the BP situation to get him fired

Talk about damned with faint praise: "...our good friend, founder and former Chairman, Matthew R. Simmons." I've been concerned for some time that Matt Simmons had jumped the shark, especially on the GOM disaster. His 2005 book, Twilight in the desert : the coming Saudi oil shock and the world economy, was one of the most illuminating things I have read in the past 5 years, but this year Simmons has seemed increasingly unhinged.

 

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Wow. I read it all. Thanks for putting that up. Important!

 

Im thinking BP will have a bill of about 50 billion dollars over the next 10 years for this mess. Even that will not clean this up.

$50 billion may be lowballing it:

 

Predictions by analysts of the overall cost of the spill to BP, when criminal penalties are included, have been rising. On Wednesday, Pavel Molchanov, an analyst at Raymond James, estimated the total legal cost, including criminal fines, at $62.9 billion, which would dwarf the $20 billion escrow account to be used to pay claims of economic loss.

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/17/us/17liability.html?hp

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Gary in Aus

Watched an interview last night that included a senior local government official in Louisiana concerning the oil spill.

 

He painted a fairly grim picture about his area.

 

He described areas where booms weren't joined and oil was washing through.

 

His area had mounted sewerage pump out trucks on small barges and that allowed them to reach and suck up oil that was in channels in their wetlands, what a great idea and it was working.

 

There was also another local government official from Florida interviewed and they weren't happy with BP or Federal response so far.

 

In another interview there was concern raised over the chemicals being used as dispersants , apparently there are are safer/more environmentally friendly chemicals available but BP insists that it uses chemicals from it's own/partly owned companies. This could also ring some alarm bells.

 

We have some deep water drilling rigs off the North West Shelf and pressure is now being applied to the government about a moratorium on these rigs , with a simple premise attached that you have to have the ability to stop leaks and the equipment to repair damage as it occurs.

 

The US oil spill has shown the way not to conduct this type of industry , it also reinforces the opportunities for failure /flaws in self regulation.

 

If it means oil gets dearer ,then it has to be to protect us from ourselves.

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yabadabapal

Do they have that much. $62 billion. Even that amount wont fix the problem. No amount of money will. We have done damage to an ecological zone that may take hundreds of years to repair itself.

Im all in for a national public transportation system. If we build it, they will come. With 273 major cities with population over 100K, a major railline with innercity connectivity to local lines would be tremendous. It would eventually dismantle a significant portion of our dependence on foreign oil and create millions of jobs throughout the country and peripheral businesses. I would include trains where you could load your car on to, and use when you get to your destination. If there s one thing positive about this oil spill its about change,, and the time has come.

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........ If there s one thing positive about this oil spill its about change,, and the time has come.

 

I hope to see the day when I(we) can look back on this incident & indeed see a positive.

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Gary in Aus

Not a hijack but after information.

 

There was a lot of press about the "clean up" or restoration after Katrina .

 

How has this progressed since 2005 and has everything been cleared,cleaned or whatever ?

 

Are the same authorities /agencies that were/are responsible for dealing with Katrina aaftermath the ones dealing with the oilspill ?

 

Are these the best people to be dealing with this?

 

 

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yabadabapal
Not a hijack but after information.

 

There was a lot of press about the "clean up" or restoration after Katrina .

 

How has this progressed since 2005 and has everything been cleared,cleaned or whatever ?

 

Are the same authorities /agencies that were/are responsible for dealing with Katrina aaftermath the ones dealing with the oilspill ?

 

Are these the best people to be dealing with this?

 

 

Thats a considerable question. We have a new administration so Im thinking we have different people in charge.

But on the other hand I was having coffee the other day with some guys and they were complaining about the state of affairs in certain areas. One guy said you know I pay taxes and I vote and this is all i get. I said in reply that the problem wasnt so much the people he voted for but that the problem was himself. The fact that you think if you pay taxes and vote things will turn out as you planned is naive and lazy. I told him that we all need to participate proactively in coordinated response with the people we vote for as a means of getting the job done correctly. Some of the best ideas for the cleanup did not come from the people we voted for or the engineers at BP. They came from the public. Simple people like myself. Ultimately we are all to blame for expecting someone else to take care of us and leaving our welfare in the hands of a bunch of actors and actresses masquerading as politicians under the umbrella of public servants. I better shutup now.

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John Ranalletta
"...Simmons has a 4,000-share short sale on BP that he picked up when the stock hit $37. That’s in addition to a prior 4,000-share short sale he made at $48 a couple weeks prior. “It’s going to zero,” he says of BP stock. Mind you, Simmons has an interest and a deep investment in moving beyond fossil fuels."
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Dan Gleebitz

I've been amazed at the total silence of the US media about the Bhopal disaster, it was on our news last week as they've finally handed out jail sentences to some of the local bosses. Remember tens of thousands of people died in that accident, on the day and following it. Even though it was a US company no US director has ever faced a judge. Union Carbide even lied about it being a US company initially till it was proven otherwise. Compare that to the witch hunt of BP directors so far in the US media. It's been funny though, watching the US media change tack on bashing 'British Petroleum', something it's not been for twelve years when it went international and merged with a bunch of US companies to become BP. They changed tack when it was pointed out that one of the biggest tranche of share holders where actually American pensioners and unions. Now it's become BP again and the bashing has lessened a tad! I wonder if the media company's accountants realised they too held stocks?

It was also interesting listening to one of the Gulf oil barge captains laid off by Obama's moratorium on drilling, he reckoned BP where really tough on him over safety and he too reckoned it would come down to human error on the rig on the part of the rig owners and operators.

 

But unlike other countries around the world, in the US (and like here in the UK) though it might take a long time we probably will find out what happened. That's if evidence from the mangled wreck and the BOP can be recovered.

 

Bearing in mind that it was a Transocean (US Company) drilling rig and Halliburton (US Company) were also on site and the equipment that failed was US manufactured, the president and his countrymen have a real gall blaming the British for their own c*ck ups. But hey, US companies were responsible for the Piper Alpha disaster in the North Sea which killed 167 British workers. BP which is now being defrauded by yanks looking to make a quick buck out of an environmental disaster.

 

 

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Do they have that much. $62 billion. Even that amount wont fix the problem. No amount of money will. We have done damage to an ecological zone that may take hundreds of years to repair itself.

Im all in for a national public transportation system. If we build it, they will come. With 273 major cities with population over 100K, a major railline with innercity connectivity to local lines would be tremendous. It would eventually dismantle a significant portion of our dependence on foreign oil and create millions of jobs throughout the country and peripheral businesses. I would include trains where you could load your car on to, and use when you get to your destination. If there s one thing positive about this oil spill its about change,, and the time has come.

 

I believe I've seen some numbers that showed that at current average ridership levels, busses and trains because of their shear weight, actually use more fuel than passenger cars.

 

But that's not to say that you can't change the size, construction, typeo of powerplant and so forth to overcome these issues. But mass transit is more of a solution for traffic congestion and in some cities where ridership levels are high, it does reduce a certain amount of fuel consumption.

 

 

A simpler solution might be to create incentives to folks not to live 30-60 minutes from work. It doesn't really matter what you drive or how you get ot work if you're only 2-5 miles away.

 

Heres' an idea. Offer a $1000 tax credit if your residence is within 10 miles of your physical workplace. Antoher $500 if there are no motor vehciles registered ot memebers of the household.

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Bearing in mind that it was a Transocean (US Company) drilling rig and Halliburton (US Company) were also on site and the equipment that failed was US manufactured, the president and his countrymen have a real gall blaming the British for their own c*ck ups.

 

Since when does reality have anything to do with it?

 

My view is that BP has had a miserable safety record and likely engendered an atmosphere where safety in drilling was a very low priority. However, the last thing that any of those thumping their chests care about is the truth. As in any catastrophe of this magnitude, there were multiple points of failure and there is plenty of blame to be shared. But BP is "Big Oil" and it's a foreign corporation, so it makes a great target.

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Dan Gleebitz

I suppose it diverts attention to internal problems and makes the "Pres" look good in his countryman's eyes (is that Kenya or US?)... however not so from other nations eyes

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Joe Frickin' Friday
A simpler solution might be to create incentives to folks not to live 30-60 minutes from work. It doesn't really matter what you drive or how you get ot work if you're only 2-5 miles away.

 

Heres' an idea. Offer a $1000 tax credit if your residence is within 10 miles of your physical workplace. Antoher $500 if there are no motor vehciles registered ot memebers of the household.

 

Incentives already exist. Just today I was comparing notes with a friend/coworker. His commute is about 20 miles each way, mine is about 1.5 (yes, one point five). I pay $3K more in property taxes than he does, but he pays about $4.5K more in commuting costs. So living as close as me would save him $1500/yr.

 

If I didn't register a motor vehicle, I'd be saving about $100 in registration costs. Probably also saving a lot in insurance. And gas. And maintenance. If I still owned the car it would be depreciating, but not as fast, since it wouldn't be accumulating miles, just age. I bet all of that would add up to more than $500/yr.

 

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Dave McReynolds

His commute is about 20 miles each way, mine is about 1.5 (yes, one point five). I pay $3K more in property taxes than he does, but he pays about $4.5K more in commuting costs. So living as close as me would save him $1500/yr.

 

Assuming the difference in commute times is at least an hour a day, and he works at least 200 days/yr, he would also save 200 hours a year that he could use in other ways. Depending on how he values his time, that could be a savings of $2,000 or more for him also.

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John Ranalletta
Heres' an idea. Offer a $1000 tax credit if your residence is within 10 miles of your physical workplace
Cool. I work from home. Do I get a tax credit?
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Bearing in mind that it was a Transocean (US Company) drilling rig and Halliburton (US Company) were also on site and the equipment that failed was US manufactured, the president and his countrymen have a real gall blaming the British for their own c*ck ups.

It's been fairly clear for about a month, and even more so with new information in the past week, that BP over-rode the recommendations of both Halliburton re how to cement the well, and of the Transocean drilling supervisor about removing the drilling mud. Newsweek reports the following satellite telephone conversation from Deepwater Horizon installation manager Jimmy Harrell to a BP manger in Houston, as the rig was exploding: "Are you f--king happy? Are you f--king happy? The rig's on fire! I told you this was gonna happen."

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Lots of blame to go around. But what I don't understand is why there has been no focus on the bop. Its like you're investigating a car crash and you know the brakes failed but somehow it never becomes a topic of discussion or investigation.

 

And yes, there may be an inquiry later - maybe - but where's the parade of talking heads speculating on the reasons for the failure and calling for accountability? How can you ensure safety of deep sea (or other sea) drilling if you know the ultimate safety mechanism doesn't work or has design issues and you're not addressing the situation.

 

Am I missing something? Is it not true that if the bop had worked, regardless of the all the prior mistakes in judgement which were made, oil wouldn't be flowing out the top of it into the gulf?

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yabadabapal

It's been fairly clear for about a month, and even more so with new information in the past week, that BP over-rode the recommendations of both Halliburton re how to cement the well, and of the Transocean drilling supervisor about removing the drilling mud. Newsweek reports the following satellite telephone conversation from Deepwater Horizon installation manager Jimmy Harrell to a BP manger in Houston, as the rig was exploding: "Are you f--king happy? Are you f--king happy? The rig's on fire! I told you this was gonna happen."

 

Wow! I have a feeling that we will stop the leak long before we ever find out the truth.

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Am I missing something? Is it not true that if the bop had worked, regardless of the all the prior mistakes in judgement which were made, oil wouldn't be flowing out the top of it into the gulf?

If I understood Hayward's testimony today, the well was equipped with a BOP that was rated for 15,000 psi -- the highest available at the time, although Hayward said that the manufacturer (Cameron?) is currently working on a 20,000 psi model. Reportedly, the pressure at the wellhead was 30,000 psi -- a pressure that, as far as I am aware, exceeds the rating of any blowout preventer currently manufactured, so even if the BOP had been in perfect operating condition (which it wasn't), once the mud was removed, it could not have handled the wellhead pressure.

 

I hope the BP manager who reportedly overrode the recommendations of Transocean and Halliburton can be criminally prosecuted, as he deserves no less.

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Dave McReynolds
Am I missing something? Is it not true that if the bop had worked, regardless of the all the prior mistakes in judgement which were made, oil wouldn't be flowing out the top of it into the gulf?

If I understood Hayward's testimony today, the well was equipped with a BOP that was rated for 15,000 psi -- the highest available at the time, although Hayward said that the manufacturer (Cameron?) is currently working on a 20,000 psi model. Reportedly, the pressure at the wellhead was 30,000 psi -- a pressure that, as far as I am aware, exceeds the rating of any blowout preventer currently manufactured, so even if the BOP had been in perfect operating condition (which it wasn't), once the mud was removed, it could not have handled the wellhead pressure.

 

I hope the BP manager who reportedly overrode the recommendations of Transocean and Halliburton can be criminally prosecuted, as he deserves no less.

 

At what point would they have known that the pressure at the wellhead exceeded the rating for the BOP, and what could they have done differently at that point?

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I have to agree with the poster to a limited extent. Not so much about who’s to blame, as I think all three of the major players should be strung up, but about the part of conspicuous absence of the names “Transocean” and “Halliburton” in the majority of the US media coverage. BP is getting the majority of the bashing, which they royally deserve, but the other two seem to be by-and-large getting a free ride. When actually they were as much involved as BP.

 

But ISFA, “BP which is now being defrauded by yanks looking to make a quick buck out of an environmental disaster.” that’s waaaay off base. 1000s and 1000s of lives have negatively, permanently been impacted by this. To say nothing of the millions (billions?) of ocean and land, plant and wildlife destroyed. There’s no quick buck making going on, only loss after loss after loss. US$20 billon will barely be a dent in the total impact cost of this colossal _uck up.

 

BTW, where have you seen proof that Simmons is shorting BP? The last I've seen is that he claims to hold no shares of BP, long or short.

 

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At what point would they have known that the pressure at the wellhead exceeded the rating for the BOP, and what could they have done differently at that point?

Despite the well failing at least two final pressure tests, BP ordered Transocean to remove the drilling mud -- overruling the recommendation of the Transocean drilling supervisor (hence, the angry satellite phone call to Houston). Many of those involved believed they had an unstable well, but had the mud remained in place, most people in the field seem to believe that the well would have remained stable.

 

Did BP's Oil Rig Really Pass a Key Safety Test?

 

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A simpler solution might be to create incentives to folks not to live 30-60 minutes from work. It doesn't really matter what you drive or how you get ot work if you're only 2-5 miles away.

 

Heres' an idea. Offer a $1000 tax credit if your residence is within 10 miles of your physical workplace. Antoher $500 if there are no motor vehciles registered ot memebers of the household.

 

 

Incentives already exist. Just today I was comparing notes with a friend/coworker. His commute is about 20 miles each way, mine is about 1.5 (yes, one point five). I pay $3K more in property taxes than he does, but he pays about $4.5K more in commuting costs. So living as close as me would save him $1500/yr.

 

If I didn't register a motor vehicle, I'd be saving about $100 in registration costs. Probably also saving a lot in insurance. And gas. And maintenance. If I still owned the car it would be depreciating, but not as fast, since it wouldn't be accumulating miles, just age. I bet all of that would add up to more than $500/yr.

 

 

Don't forget about your reduced exposure to accidents. I remember it was almost seemed like once a week that someone rolled over on one of the 3 major highways around Ann Arbor. Especially M-14, I-275 and 696 which seem like Michigan's version of a German autobahns sometimes... except everyone's driving big SUV's that aren't all that safe over 70mph anyway.

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The simplest incentive would be a carbon tax, gradually increasing (say $0.10/month) over a period of years. No immediate disruption, but enough to encourage people to buy smaller cars, drive less, build smaller, more energy-efficient houses, rather than 5000 square foot mini-castles. No new bureaucracy required, as the infrastructure alreadyexists. The true cost of carbon-based fuels, in terms of environmental damage, military investment, etc., is not reflected in the current market price.

 

When gasoline hits $5 a gallon or more, alternative fuel vehicles start becoming more cost competitive. Same thing when electricity hits $0.20/kw.

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John Ranalletta

"tax"

 

Let me think about this. The federal government spends more than it takes in already. If fact, outgo can be measured in magnitudes of income; so, does it really make sense to send more TAX revenue into that multiplication machine?

 

Government is too big already and has outstripped private sector growth. Federal employees are now the elite amongst wage earners. Why would you want to hasten that trend? It just doesn't make sense unless one is a statist.

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yabadabapal

Just a quick update.

Tony Hayward is stepping down as man in charge of the gulf for BP

Bob Dudley, who is I think managing director for BP will be taking

over in the gulf. BP states the reason for the switch being that

Haywards comments have upset to many people.

I mean, is there anything anybody can say that wouldn't be

upsetting while 2.4 million gallons of oil leak into the gulf every 24 hours, equaling 1 exon valdez every 4 days.

 

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quote

BP is getting the majority of the bashing, which they royally deserve, but the other two seem to be by-and-large getting a free ride. When actually they were as much involved as BP.

unquote

 

Hmmm! But no bashing of the MMS/Federal Government who oversaw (and overlooked) the mandated offshore rig safety requirements :S!

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Hmmm! But no bashing of the MMS/Federal Government who oversaw (and overlooked) the mandated offshore rig safety requirements :S!

Oh I so agree with your point on that. The MMS is a disgrace. Just another ‘fox guarding the chicken coop’ rubber stamp agency. I guess there are calls out now to split it up, but it’s way too little, way too late.

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I mean, is there anything anybody can say that wouldn't be upsetting while 2.4 million gallons of oil leak into the gulf every 24 hours, equaling 1 exon valdez every 4 days.

True, but if there ever has been a poster-child for what not to do/say in a damage control situation, it’s that guy.

 

There are case studies on corporate crisis damage control methodologies, think of the Tylenol product tampering a decade ago and Maple Foods (in Canada) more recently. I suspect BP and the Deep Horizon will become one too. But for the opposite reason of the others.

 

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Harry_Wilshusen
Do they have that much. $62 billion. Even that amount wont fix the problem. No amount of money will. We have done damage to an ecological zone that may take hundreds of years to repair itself.

Im all in for a national public transportation system. If we build it, they will come. With 273 major cities with population over 100K, a major railline with innercity connectivity to local lines would be tremendous. It would eventually dismantle a significant portion of our dependence on foreign oil and create millions of jobs throughout the country and peripheral businesses. I would include trains where you could load your car on to, and use when you get to your destination. If there s one thing positive about this oil spill its about change,, and the time has come.

 

Yeah! Then the Iron Butt Rally can be done on AmTrak.

 

Harry

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Well said John. In simpler terms, when a wildfire is burning out of control, and consuming/destroying everything in its path, one proven way to slow it down is to starve it of the very fuel on which it feeds.

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yabadabapal

Interesting read. Here is a little alternative perspective.

One scientist said it would take the spill more than 700 million years for the amount of oil in the Gulf to equal the amount of water -- about 650 quadrillion gallons.

Well thats interesting. But I ask the scientist this. At the current rate, how many years will it take to effect the life and ecology of the gulf body..

Another thought is there are 343 quintillion gallons of water in all the oceans collectively. Thats equal to 343 billion BILLION gallons.

It seems like alot but its really not. Based on how we consume resources, anything that is finite, is not enough.

Hopefully we will learn to consume in degrees and quantities that allow regeneration. There is definitely a cycle that needs to be respected.

 

 

 

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"Two tablespoons of machine oil can contaminate an entire ship's fresh water supply" I think that quote was from the movie Men of Honor, but we're not dealing with them in the gulf.

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"Two tablespoons of machine oil can contaminate an entire ship's fresh water supply" I think that quote was from the movie Men of Honor, but we're not dealing with them in the gulf.

 

That too shall pass. quite easily too, DAMHIK

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yabadabapal

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0622/Gulf-oil-spill-Judge-slams-Obama-s-drilling-moratorium-blocks-it

 

The US District Court in New Orleans blocked the Obama administration’s six-month moratorium on deep-water drilling Tuesday, adding to doubts about the federal report that recommended the ban.

 

So Bobby Jindal Gov of Louisiana , backed the district courts decisions. So I guess its business as usual. When everything is going well, you give credit to the state. And when its not, you blame the federal Govt and ask them to pay for it. Sounds like we need better, more responsible, intelligent leadership on the state level, many states, many levels.

 

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Gary in Aus

While driving back from Sydney today and listening to the radio , I heard a interview with Bill Clinton regarding his ideas on the Gulf oil spill.

 

His suggestion to hand over responsibility to the US government which would allow/enable them to possibly use a nuclear exploding device to seal the leaking well.

 

If this is the best than can be offered ,well I guess you are screwed !!

 

The Canadian oil "expert' who followed Bill Clinton made some very sound arguments against such a proposal with the major ones being the implications if it didn't seal the well. Scenarios such as it would continue leaking until oil and water pressure equalised which could be anything from 3 to 15 years {not very exact on his time frame but he did suggest that it could be up to 20 years depending on the size of the leak}

 

The addition of radioactive particles being distributed with the oil was another one of his many concerns.

 

Another Indonesian oil "expert" agreed that BP drilling the side wells was the most economic for BP as it would allow this well to continue production at the most cost effective solution to the leak, he laughed and liked BP spin on the drilling operation as a "rescue mission ".

 

Good to hear so far 12 countries are now assisting with trying to minimize the damage and find a solution.

 

Is this oil spill a leading news item on US news services ?

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While driving back from Sydney today and listening to the radio , I heard a interview with Bill Clinton regarding his ideas on the Gulf oil spill.

 

His suggestion to hand over responsibility to the US government which would allow/enable them to possibly use a nuclear exploding device to seal the leaking well.

 

If this is the best than can be offered ,well I guess you are screwed !!

 

... *perhaps* some of the rest of the interview (maybe there were multiple interviews):

 

"You don't have to use a nuclear weapon, by the way,"

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Is this oil spill a leading news item on US news services ?

As rkd pointed out, Clinton was quite specific that he was not talking about a nuclear explosion. If I remember right, we now have non-nuclear 10 kiloton weapons in our arsenal.

 

"Leading"? Well, the oil spill has been pushed aside a little this week by the Kagan and Petraeus hearings, but many news anchors are still broadcasting from New Orleans or elsewhere in the Gulf. I suspect the amount of coverage one gets varies by location. We're driving down there in 3 weeks for an annual family gathering, so I will have some first-hand experiences from the Pensacola to Gulf Shores region.

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