Slow riding technique

[Morrie]

I saw what I thought was a remarkable demonstration the other day. I guy on a big Valkyrie pulled into the bike store, and turned 180 degrees between a post and a curb about 6' apart. In the process, his front wheel cruised neatly within an inch of the curb and it was obvious he know just what he was doing. He wound up at right angles facing away from the curb and casually strolled into the store.

 

Now I do a lot of parking lot practice, and I'm reasonably adequate at slow riding, but I know my limitations and I wouldn't dream of slow riding that close to an edge trap. Did I just see a superman in action, or are there a lot of others who could pull off that maneuver?

 

BTW, the Beemer drive lash is a problem for me in slow riding.

 

 

 

[Woodie]

A U-turn you say with a 6' diameter??

 

That, I cannot do. Two parking spaces I can do, what's that about 16-18'?

 

[russell_bynum]

I've seen motor officers do similarly amazing moves...without so much as a second thought. I was pretty comfortable with my RT in tight quarters, but these guys are in a whole different league.

 

BTW, try dragging the rear brake a bit...it will keep tension on the driveline and minimize lash.

[T__]

I saw what I thought was a remarkable demonstration the other day. I guy on a big Valkyrie pulled into the bike store, and turned 180 degrees between a post and a curb about 6' apart. In the process, his front wheel cruised neatly within an inch of the curb and it was obvious he know just what he was doing. He wound up at right angles facing away from the curb and casually strolled into the store.

 

Now I do a lot of parking lot practice, and I'm reasonably adequate at slow riding, but I know my limitations and I wouldn't dream of slow riding that close to an edge trap. Did I just see a superman in action, or are there a lot of others who could pull off that maneuver?

 

BTW, the Beemer drive lash is a problem for me in slow riding.

 

 

 

Morrie, I presume he didn’t actually make a 6’ U turn,, he just turned through a spot of 6’ between the post & curb right? I couldn’t turn a trials bike in a 6’ circle..

 

As far as turning with the front wheel within 1” of the curb sure I have done it but that is pretty close to do very often.. As long as there is some lock & some lean remaining the turning line can be changed as needed when getting close to a curb or drop off..

 

Practice- practice- practice & it becomes easier..

 

 

Twisty

 

[motorman587]

Must've been a motorman!!!! lol

[Morrie]

The U turn was wider than 6'. That was just a point in the center of the turn where he passed between the post and the curb.

[Francois_Dumas]

6 meters would be normal (mandatory requirement for most European motor licenses), that's 6 yards or 18' I think.

 

http://www.cbr.nl/brochure/VIWEB906.pdf

[Woodie]

Oh. That's sounds a lot more doable, although it's harder to get close to physical obstacles like that, rather than just lines in the pavement.

[upflying]

Attached are assorted sets of cone patterns motor officers are required to perform during initial and recurrent training. Which patterns are used depends on where the training is given.

The goal is to make a u-turn within a typical 12' traffic lane but 18' seems to be a common u-turn tolerance.

Don't look at obstacles or cones while doing low speed maneuvers. Watch cones with your peripheral vision and keep you eyes focused up on the distant horizon. The MTO's always barked, "look down, go down" during pattern work.

http://www.motorcops.com/police_training/motorcycleconepatterns.asp

[Morrie]

There used to be a school in Washington State that taught the police riding course. Maybe it's still there, I don't know. You could use your own bike, but they strongly recommended that you not, because they said you will drop it (or there's) several times. They told me they are constantly putting bikes back together and installing new clutches. The guys at Orlando BMW told me they have motor officer demo teams occasionally, and they can go through a clutch in less than a day.

 

[upflying]

The Alameda County Sheriffs Department has a one day civilian riding course. It's conducted in the police cone patterns.

http://sheriffacademy.org/

[Quinn]

The Alameda County Sheriffs Department has a one day civilian riding course. It's conducted in the police cone patterns.

http://sheriffacademy.org/

 

Would I be allowed to get off and walk my bike through the patterns?

 

---

 

 

[pmottaz]

The Alameda County Sheriffs Department has a one day civilian riding course. It's conducted in the police cone patterns.

http://sheriffacademy.org/

 

Bob,

I've heard good things about this course and went to the web-site (thanks for the link). It appears that you need to be associated with some police (gov't) agency to register? Do you know if that is the case or can joe-civilian register on his own without representation?

[elkroeger]

A co-worker gave me a copy of Jerry "the motorman" Palladino's Ride Like a Pro video. She said her son used it to prepare for his motor officer training, and he recommended it.

 

It's a little goofy, in a fun sort of way, but I thought it was really good. Just watching it improved my slow riding. Get yourself competent at the exercises, and you'll be riding in formation with the Shriner's on the 4th of July.

[upflying]

The Alameda County Sheriffs Department has a one day civilian riding course. It's conducted in the police cone patterns.

http://sheriffacademy.org/

 

Bob,

I've heard good things about this course and went to the web-site (thanks for the link). It appears that you need to be associated with some police (gov't) agency to register? Do you know if that is the case or can joe-civilian register on his own without representation?

 

I didn't read what the prerequisites were, I thought it was open to the public and got that impression when I heard about it on the news a year ago or so.

I went through a one-day LEO update rider course there last summer.

[T__]

If any of you can get into a full course police motor training course DO IT!.

 

I took one years ago (before they started offering the tamed down easier civilian version)..

 

If they offer (their) bikes maybe look into that (will cost a fair amount extra) as YOU WILL DROP YOUR BIKE (probably more than once).. I took it on one of my old GoldWings & before I went I machined up & welded some bracketry to some old light truck disk brake pads to clamp to the front guards.. Yep, I fell (more than once) but the brake pads took all the landing abuse..

 

You will probably get more out of the course if you use their bike or an old not cherished bike of your own.. To really learn you really want do the exercises properly & not worry about dropping your $20,000 motorcycle..

 

I found you can have more fun if you don’t show up on a Harley dresser or a BMW RTP..

 

When the course started the head instructor looked at my GoldWing & said with a harsh voice (y’all gona ride this course on that Thang!,, aint’a gonna work!)

On the first few exercises the instructor said-- I expect all you riders to get through this exercise without touching a foot down“well except that big ol GoldWing bike there”.. By the end of the first day the instructors had changed the saying slightly by saying “if that GoldWing can do it you all should be able to with no problems” By the end of the second day he didn’t make ANY more cracks about the “old GoldWing” & just treated it as part of the herd..

 

If you take it seriously you will go home (or back to the motel) completely worn out & extremely tired at the end of each day ,, but you will learn a life long remembered understanding of motorcycle handling,, low speed TIGHT turning,, braking limits while leaned over,, obstacle avoidance during braking,, & basic quick decision accident avoidance,, etc..

 

IF, you can get into one it is worth every penny you will spend plus some..

 

Twisty

 

 

[Bill_Walker]

When I took the MSF basic course back in the 80s, our instructor was an ex-CHP motor cop, and he demonstrated every exercise on his Gold Wing Aspencade. I think we all had abrasions on our chins by the end of the course.

[dhanson]

We had to do figure 8s in a single parking space or slightly bigger in the advanced MSF. Looked impossible, but the instructor demoed with his goldwing. So off we went.

 

The trick is to look at the turn ahead and to lean the bike but counter with your weight the other way. Must look all the way behind you almost. One of our guys did it on his LT. I had the GT at the time, but choose to ride my Versys, pretty simple on that bike.

[Dan M]

I had a Valkyrie for six years. I found it really easy to do u-turns even with a passenger. All that weight low and a smooth torquey engine made it easy to turn to the lock and idle through the turn. Being able to stabilize with a little rear brake pressure when needed was a help too. Something I miss when doing a u-turn on the RT.

[markgoodrich]

The latest issue of Motorcycle Consumer News (Feb 2010) has an interesting article on police bikes (the article is mainly about the amazingly high cost of maintaining the BMW fleet in two departments). What was germane to this discussion was the difference in slow-speed braking technique required for wet vs dry clutch machines...in a nutshell, dry clutch riders are taught NOT to drag their rear brake in slow speed maneuvering, but rather use just the clutch and throttle to maintain control. That may explain some of the scratches on my side case .

 

pmdave's thread in this same forum has EXCELLENT braking advice.

[FlyingFinn]

We had to do figure 8s in a single parking space or slightly bigger...

 

A complete figure-8 inside a normal parking spot (or slightly bigger), really?

What's a normal parking spot, 10' x 20'?

Make it slightly bigger say 12' x 24' (44% bigger) and I still say a figure-8 inside that box is not possible with a full-size bike (no play bikes) without some slow-speed stunt moves.

 

I can do a comfortable left or right U-turn in 18' wide space, it's not excellent but pretty OK.

Hard to belive it could be done in about half that space...

 

[russell_bynum]

The latest issue of Motorcycle Consumer News (Feb 2010) has an interesting article on police bikes (the article is mainly about the amazingly high cost of maintaining the BMW fleet in two departments). What was germane to this discussion was the difference in slow-speed braking technique required for wet vs dry clutch machines...in a nutshell, dry clutch riders are taught NOT to drag their rear brake in slow speed maneuvering, but rather use just the clutch and throttle to maintain control. That may explain some of the scratches on my side case .

 

 

I think you got that backwards....the motor officers I've talked to said that the dry clutch bikes like rear brake in low-speed stuff since the dry clutch can't tolerate as much slipping as the wet clutch can. I also recall that when the CHP first started using BMW's, there was a rash of VERY early clutch failures...attributed to their technique of slipping the clutch a bunch in low speed manuvering.

[markgoodrich]

The latest issue of Motorcycle Consumer News (Feb 2010) has an interesting article on police bikes (the article is mainly about the amazingly high cost of maintaining the BMW fleet in two departments). What was germane to this discussion was the difference in slow-speed braking technique required for wet vs dry clutch machines...in a nutshell, dry clutch riders are taught NOT to drag their rear brake in slow speed maneuvering, but rather use just the clutch and throttle to maintain control. That may explain some of the scratches on my side case .

 

 

I think you got that backwards....the motor officers I've talked to said that the dry clutch bikes like rear brake in low-speed stuff since the dry clutch can't tolerate as much slipping as the wet clutch can. I also recall that when the CHP first started using BMW's, there was a rash of VERY early clutch failures...attributed to their technique of slipping the clutch a bunch in low speed manuvering.

 

I can see how you'd think I, the Brake Bozo, might have gotten that backwards, Russell, but in this case, I'm reporting exactly what the article stated. Feathering the rear brake puts so much stress on the clutch that it wears out quickly, according to the author, who describes the CHP experience, and how CHP realized the problem was riding the rear brake...I'm just playing the piano, here, don't shoot.

[T__]

Mark, there’s kind of an art to doing very t-i-g-h-t slow speed on the lock turns on the BMW’s & I’m sure as many different ways to accomplish the feat as people that do it..

 

I also think that riding your OWN bike compared to riding someone else’s stable bike makes a difference..

 

If I wasn’t buying the clutches I would just slip it & drag the rear brake just as I do on my wet clutch bikes..

 

On my own BMW’s I have a found a kind of compromise that involves pulse dragging the rear brake in conjunction of pulsing the clutch in & out at the light engagement point.. As the brake is lightly tapped on the clutch lever is ever so slightly pulled in out of slip engagement,, then as the clutch is slightly engaged (slip zone) the rear brake is ever so slightly released.. I have used this method for a very long time & have yet to wear a clutch out..

 

I’m not saying this is the best or only method only that it has worked out wonderfully for me over the years..

 

Twisty

 

[russell_bynum]

The latest issue of Motorcycle Consumer News (Feb 2010) has an interesting article on police bikes (the article is mainly about the amazingly high cost of maintaining the BMW fleet in two departments). What was germane to this discussion was the difference in slow-speed braking technique required for wet vs dry clutch machines...in a nutshell, dry clutch riders are taught NOT to drag their rear brake in slow speed maneuvering, but rather use just the clutch and throttle to maintain control. That may explain some of the scratches on my side case .

 

 

I think you got that backwards....the motor officers I've talked to said that the dry clutch bikes like rear brake in low-speed stuff since the dry clutch can't tolerate as much slipping as the wet clutch can. I also recall that when the CHP first started using BMW's, there was a rash of VERY early clutch failures...attributed to their technique of slipping the clutch a bunch in low speed manuvering.

 

I can see how you'd think I, the Brake Bozo, might have gotten that backwards, Russell, but in this case, I'm reporting exactly what the article stated. Feathering the rear brake puts so much stress on the clutch that it wears out quickly, according to the author, who describes the CHP experience, and how CHP realized the problem was riding the rear brake...I'm just playing the piano, here, don't shoot.

 

LOL. Brake Bozo....I like that.

 

That's interesting. I always heard it (from Motor officers) the other way around. I'm not sure how dragging the rear brake could wear the clutch out anyway....unless you're also slipping the clutch at the same time, of course.

[markgoodrich]

The latest issue of Motorcycle Consumer News (Feb 2010) has an interesting article on police bikes (the article is mainly about the amazingly high cost of maintaining the BMW fleet in two departments). What was germane to this discussion was the difference in slow-speed braking technique required for wet vs dry clutch machines...in a nutshell, dry clutch riders are taught NOT to drag their rear brake in slow speed maneuvering, but rather use just the clutch and throttle to maintain control. That may explain some of the scratches on my side case .

 

 

I think you got that backwards....the motor officers I've talked to said that the dry clutch bikes like rear brake in low-speed stuff since the dry clutch can't tolerate as much slipping as the wet clutch can. I also recall that when the CHP first started using BMW's, there was a rash of VERY early clutch failures...attributed to their technique of slipping the clutch a bunch in low speed manuvering.

 

I can see how you'd think I, the Brake Bozo, might have gotten that backwards, Russell, but in this case, I'm reporting exactly what the article stated. Feathering the rear brake puts so much stress on the clutch that it wears out quickly, according to the author, who describes the CHP experience, and how CHP realized the problem was riding the rear brake...I'm just playing the piano, here, don't shoot.

 

LOL. Brake Bozo....I like that.

 

That's interesting. I always heard it (from Motor officers) the other way around. I'm not sure how dragging the rear brake could wear the clutch out anyway....unless you're also slipping the clutch at the same time, of course.

 

That's exactly it, slipping the clutches constantly destroyed them.

[upflying]

As an '89 CHP motor school graduate, I can tell you from that training I was taught not to drag the rear brake while doing most patterns. The instructor would bark at you if he saw a foot on the pedal. The only exception were incline patterns where a turn was made downhill. Speed control through the patterns was with clutch and throttle only.

At the time, the training bikes were run-out KZ1000P's, a bike known for a durable wet clutch. I recall using occasional high RPM/clutch slips that would have quickly killed a BMW clutch.

During thee transition to BMW's, I had noticed less clutch slipping was evident from riders doing update training. Patterns were still being done without brake dragging but the officers were using very slight throttle openings to keep clutch slip to a minimum.

As an old fart, I have acquired a bad habit of dragging the HD rear brake while doing patterns. It's an unfortunate perk seasoned motors are allowed to do. The HD wet clutch is the best in the business and it does not complain, stink, smoke, slip or prematurely wear out.

[russell_bynum]

The latest issue of Motorcycle Consumer News (Feb 2010) has an interesting article on police bikes (the article is mainly about the amazingly high cost of maintaining the BMW fleet in two departments). What was germane to this discussion was the difference in slow-speed braking technique required for wet vs dry clutch machines...in a nutshell, dry clutch riders are taught NOT to drag their rear brake in slow speed maneuvering, but rather use just the clutch and throttle to maintain control. That may explain some of the scratches on my side case .

 

 

I think you got that backwards....the motor officers I've talked to said that the dry clutch bikes like rear brake in low-speed stuff since the dry clutch can't tolerate as much slipping as the wet clutch can. I also recall that when the CHP first started using BMW's, there was a rash of VERY early clutch failures...attributed to their technique of slipping the clutch a bunch in low speed manuvering.

 

I can see how you'd think I, the Brake Bozo, might have gotten that backwards, Russell, but in this case, I'm reporting exactly what the article stated. Feathering the rear brake puts so much stress on the clutch that it wears out quickly, according to the author, who describes the CHP experience, and how CHP realized the problem was riding the rear brake...I'm just playing the piano, here, don't shoot.

 

LOL. Brake Bozo....I like that.

 

That's interesting. I always heard it (from Motor officers) the other way around. I'm not sure how dragging the rear brake could wear the clutch out anyway....unless you're also slipping the clutch at the same time, of course.

 

That's exactly it, slipping the clutches constantly destroyed them.

 

Isn't that what I said? Are we doing the "Who's on first?" routine?

[Dan M]

Depends on the bike. I've always used the rear lightly to stabilize the bike. Works great for me. It is just the RT has linked brakes to slipping the clutch is the answer.

Regardless of technique, I can't see ruining a clutch unless you are doing u-turns constantly. Get lost a lot?

[upflying]

Depends on the bike. I've always used the rear lightly to stabilize the bike. Works great for me. It is just the RT has linked brakes to slipping the clutch is the answer.

Regardless of technique, I can't see ruining a clutch unless you are doing u-turns constantly. Get lost a lot?

Exactly why motors need to do them..many u-turns are performed during a shift.

[dhanson]

We had to do figure 8s in a single parking space or slightly bigger...

 

A complete figure-8 inside a normal parking spot (or slightly bigger), really?

What's a normal parking spot, 10' x 20'?

Make it slightly bigger say 12' x 24' (44% bigger) and I still say a figure-8 inside that box is not possible with a full-size bike (no play bikes) without some slow-speed stunt moves.

 

I can do a comfortable left or right U-turn in 18' wide space, it's not excellent but pretty OK.

Hard to belive it could be done in about half that space...

 

I have been know to stretch a story, looked up the sizes, and it seems it was 20 x 20, had to do 2 U turns, then figure 8s. It became pretty easy after I started looking all the way over my shoulder to where I needed to go.

[FLrider]

Must've been a motorman!!!! lol

 

No comment. I still can't do that exercise you showed me!

[motorman587]

Must've been a motorman!!!! lol

 

No comment. I still can't do that exercise you showed me!

 

But you got better as the day went on!!!!

[lvnvbiker]

Doing low speed super tight stuff on my HD is a breeze, on the RT it was less easy but still do-able. On the GSA I am pretty sure that I can out maneuver my HD! Oh, and as for clutches... The local LEO RTs are all running the touratech ceramics now, and from what I gather from talking with them they get to play in the friction zone almost with impunity now.

[rad]

On my own BMW’s I have a found a kind of compromise that involves pulse dragging the rear brake in conjunction of pulsing the clutch in & out at the light engagement point..

 

No question about it, slow speed control on a BMW with a dry clutch is all about jabbing, or as you put it, pulsing, the clutch in and out of the friction zone.

 

For me it does not matter if it is the box on the MSF course where I teach or tight rocky technical off road section on my big GS, jabbing the clutch back and forth with smooth control gives great control and allows the clutch to play another day.

 

As a side note, my 02’ RT I just picked up is my forth Oil Head and it has been a struggle to make myself never go near that horrible grabby rear brake in tight maneuvering, or any cornering for that fact. I guess I will have to look into seeing if there is any way to soften its intensity.

 

[T__]

Rad, when I had an 02 1150RT with the grabby Rear I-ABS servo brake & swapped out the OEM rear brake pads for the 95/96 1100R organic rear brake pads.. That took a lot of the grabbiness (sp) out of the rear servo brake..

 

 

Twisty

 

[Quinn]

New brake pads (and more experience) fixed my grabby front brakes.

 

--

 

 

[rad]

Rad, when I had an 02 1150RT with the grabby Rear I-ABS servo brake & swapped out the OEM rear brake pads for the 95/96 1100R organic rear brake pads.. That took a lot of the grabbiness (sp) out of the rear servo brake..

 

 

Twisty

 

Hot Daymn! Thanks for the tip

[TomSSRT]

This is a good discussion on slow speed. I've a '06 RRT and a lot of this discussion hits on things I've noticed in low speed situations. Someone noted the video, I looked, too much, right now. I could spend hours in a parking lot on slow speed riding. How is it that I can do eight hours at speed. And barely make it from the ferry to Seattle Courtyard in rushhour. Anyone have a video to rent? TomSSRT

[NumbHands]

I've taken a course there. See my post from 14 months ago:

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=38424&Number=414919#Post414919

 

Michael

[Morrie]

Rad, when I had an 02 1150RT with the grabby Rear I-ABS servo brake & swapped out the OEM rear brake pads for the 95/96 1100R organic rear brake pads.. That took a lot of the grabbiness (sp) out of the rear servo brake..

 

 

Twisty

 

Hot Daymn! Thanks for the tip

 

BMW made a retrofit kit to modify P bikes to partially linked, but refused to sell them to civilians. BMW's reasoning was that "Police bikes must be ridden at slow traffic speeds with the rear brake dragging." As though the rest of us don't have to do the same! I think the real reason is that CHP refused to go with BMW unless the change was made. I'm not sure all P bikes have the modification, but I think it would be one good reason to buy an ex CHP bike.

 

As I have mentioned here before, the first 800 or so 1150RTs had a servo that was too strong and made the brakes even grabbier than the later ones. BMW recognized the mistake and made a mid-model year adjustment, but refused to retrofit the earlier bikes unless the owner could demonstrate a full-system failure.

[T__]

Morrie, that would have been one very expensive retrofit kit as it would require a different ABS controller to unlink the rear brakes as the internal hydraulic circuits are different..

 

Twisty

 

[Oss]

that is indeed how I do uturns with my valkyrie interstate but 6' is pretty dang good

 

she aint called the fat lady for nuthing light rear brake around 5mph never front brake and feathering of the clutch if any foot is gonna touch the ground make it the left foot for these turns

[Morrie]

that is indeed how I do uturns with my valkyrie interstate but 6' is pretty dang good

 

she aint called the fat lady for nuthing light rear brake around 5mph never front brake and feathering of the clutch if any foot is gonna touch the ground make it the left foot for these turns

 

Oss,

 

My original post was a little confusing. He didn't turn the bike around in 6'. In the middle of the turn, he passed through an area about 6' wide with a post on one side and curb on the other. That's when he put the front wheel about an inch from the curb.

 

 

[Knifemaker]

Wet clutches, Dry clutches,draggen brakes....duck walking is cheaper....

[Morrie]

On my own BMW’s I have a found a kind of compromise that involves pulse dragging the rear brake in conjunction of pulsing the clutch in & out at the light engagement point..

 

No question about it, slow speed control on a BMW with a dry clutch is all about jabbing, or as you put it, pulsing, the clutch in and out of the friction zone.

 

For me it does not matter if it is the box on the MSF course where I teach or tight rocky technical off road section on my big GS, jabbing the clutch back and forth with smooth control gives great control and allows the clutch to play another day.

 

 

Rad,

 

I'm confused. When you say pulsing the clutch, do you mean keeping it engaged and pulsing it into and out of the friction zone, or keeping it generally disengaged and pulsing it the opposite?

 

I was practicing yesterday and lamenting the fact that I don't have a bike I'm willing to drop to test the limits. I'm unwilling to push my current bike that little extra margin to see just how far I can go.

 

 

[FLrider]

 

I was practicing yesterday and lamenting the fact that I don't have a bike I'm willing to drop to test the limits.

 

 

Exactly

[rad]

I'm confused. When you say pulsing the clutch, do you mean keeping it engaged and pulsing it into and out of the friction zone, or keeping it generally disengaged and pulsing it the opposite?

 

I think your second statement comes closest. You don't ride the clutch in the friction zone. As you need power, you quickly release the clutch for a split second into the friction zone and disengage it. It is much like a boxers jab. The real key is to just keep your speed up. When you do so, the bike won’t fall to the inside.

[ChrisC]

A U-turn you say with a 6' diameter??

 

That, I cannot do.

 

And neither could that Valkyrie rider, even if he walked it around at full lock leaned over.

[Morrie]

A U-turn you say with a 6' diameter??

 

That, I cannot do.

 

And neither could that Valkyrie rider, even if he walked it around at full lock leaned over.

 

I didn't phrase that well. It was a bigger radius. He passed through a 6' wide space between the post and the curb midway through his turn. That's where he put his front wheel so close to the curb.