Two examples why you need RideSmart...

[Huzband]

This guy says he hit a false neutral. Bike went down & ended up in the trees. He was not hurt, & rode it home. That's him in the black jacket.

 

Link to Killboy photo.

 

This guy needed more RideSmart than the previous guy. Didn't come out as well, either.

 

Over cooked it!

 

Take note of his skid mark.

 

If you haven't taken a RideSmart class, let these two examples be your motivation to do so.

 

It can save your life!

 

[CoarsegoldKid]

Does Ridesmart prevent false neutrals, or does it teach you when to shift and how to turn a motorcycle?

[Huzband]

It doesn't teach you so much about false neutrals, but it DOES teach you how to turn a motorcycle.

 

Both of those guys would have benefited from that.

[RedHot]

Can you teach RideSmart? I need someplace to ride too, and I don't want to wait until Spring!

[Paul Mihalka]

The Advrider OP's bottom line says it all:

 

"You don't rise to the occasion in a panic situation, you default to your level of training."

 

[JayW]

"You don't rise to the occasion in a panic situation, you default to your level of training."

 

That is a great quote. I get the feeling that the guy on the Tiger still thinks speed was the main reason he crashed, rather than his poor braking and turning skills. What a shame to crash and not understand why.

 

Jay

[upflying]

Never heard of a false neutral sending you off the road in a curve.

Obviously I am sterotyping but visual clues emerge in the first example.

Male, 70 years old, last rode in 1958, new import cruiser with 175 miles on the odometer. Recipe for disaster.

[CoarsegoldKid]

I was just pulling your clutch cable on the false neutral comment. I asked my wife to look at the picture and tell me what when wrong. Bye the way she's been off her own bike since 1988 and now rides pillion. "The guy fell asleep. The guy was going too fast. The guy didn't position himself correctly on the road. He didn't look ahead of the corner. He was standing on the rear brake. Motorcycles don't jump fences very well." Not bad I'd say.

Yes, if one does this they need training.

[tallman]

I thought he did an outstanding job of parking between the trees.

Excellent view of the road from there.

[4wheeldog]

I thought he did an outstanding job of parking between the trees.

Excellent view of the road from there.

 

Reminds me of one of my favorite "I learned about flying from that" quotes: A pilot had taken off from a remote mountain airport in Idaho, severely overloaded, and descended into the trees, only minor injuries, plane destroyed (Along with his commercial license).

 

The quote, "You know, you can still steer with the rudder pedals after the wings come off!"

[Huzband]

Can you teach RideSmart? I need someplace to ride too, and I don't want to wait until Spring!

 

I could, but not without a properly hosted session. Sorry, but next spring is your earliest bet. Stay tuned to Ride Well for dates.

 

I probably should have worded the title differently. It's not so much that YOU need RideSmart, but that there are so many riders out there that do. Sorry for the inference.

[motorman587]

Never heard of a false neutral sending you off the road in a curve.

Obviously I am sterotyping but visual clues emerge in the first example.

Male, 70 years old, last rode in 1958, new import cruiser with 175 miles on the odometer. Recipe for disaster.

 

Good point, at the BMW performence Center motorcycle training I just attended, they teach you to, in a swerve to avoid, to "pull in" in the clutch and roll off the thottle, be like in false netural I guess. Once you have avoided the obstacle, straight of course and ease the clutch out and continue.

[motorman587]

This a general question and hope not a hijack. If it is sorry that I posted it. This is not to disrespect the RideSmart program. However a week ago everyone near the South Carolina area had a great opportunity to get some outstanding cheap motorcycle training. There were on and off classes, plus some ERCs, which I know some do not like because it is slow speed and in a parking lot training, However it appears that only two members from this board attended. I did post thread about South Carolina event, but never really got an interest.

It is about the money?? Do people not want to pay for training?? Or lack of information about schools, but with google seach or any other engine seach?? Just wondering??

[RedHot]

Well, I'm not in SC, but can I give my .02? Okay...

 

I have taken the ERC class and the Jim Ford class. They were both great classes and I would recommend both, however, I prefer the Jim Ford class because it seems more like "real life" practice. That's one of the reasons that I'm leaning towards the RideSmart. Not so much the cost but where it is taught. I can go in a parking lot and ride figure 8's all day but then get me on the road where there are real live cars and I have to do a u-turn? Yeah, it's a joke! I take up every inch of the road I can! It's horrible!

 

Anyway, that's my lame excuse for wanting RideSmart, I'm a mental case!

[Woodie]

Too far away. Although, I was noticing that it's time for me to take another riding course of some kind. RideSmart, ARC, ERC, something. Preferably an on-road course, as I'm reasonably comfortable with low-speed turns. Not lock-to-lock, but getting closer.

 

[upflying]

This a general question and hope not a hijack. If it is sorry that I posted it. This is not to disrespect the RideSmart program. However a week ago everyone near the South Carolina area had a great opportunity to get some outstanding cheap motorcycle training. There were on and off classes, plus some ERCs, which I know some do not like because it is slow speed and in a parking lot training, However it appears that only two members from this board attended. I did post thread about South Carolina event, but never really got an interest.

It is about the money?? Do people not want to pay for training?? Or lack of information about schools, but with google seach or any other engine seach?? Just wondering??

 

Could be like any training John, if it isn't compulsory, people won't come. Rider training is also like asking for help when you have a problem. Most of us on this discussion board feel we are the best riders in the world. Getting training is admitting you have a problem. I know what I said is contrary to common sense but seasoned motorcycle riders are a cantankerous bunch of old farts who would never admit they have a problem and don't need training to tell them otherwise. Doing so is a threat to their machismo. Even if they came to training they would not listen and consider what was being taught with skepticism.

It's part of the American culture unfortunately.

[BailyD]

Bob,

 

Before I went to motor school I had been riding MC's my entire adult life. I showed up with the outlook: I want to learn everything I can! Some other guys in the class outright disagreed with the instructor, I couldn't believe what I was hearing!!

 

At this point I will take EVERY piece of information I can! You can never get enough training and there isn't enough training around (still fighting with my OWN department to get more!) My partner and I PAID for everything to get our two weeks basic course (we had to stay at a hotel because the training area was to far away), even though our department was not mandating it. They gave us the work hours and their bikes, we paid for everything else.

 

Kevin

 

[Albert]

Getting training is admitting you have a problem.

 

Bob, I really couldn't disagree more with you on this. While surely there are some men who fall into your stereotype, there are pleny who take training in everything from karate to ball room dancing and still manage to sing below a falsetto. I think you're confusing training with rehab.

[upflying]

Getting training is admitting you have a problem.

 

Bob, I really couldn't disagree more with you on this. While surely there are some men who fall into your stereotype, there are pleny who take training in everything from karate to ball room dancing and still manage to sing below a falsetto. I think you're confusing training with rehab.

 

Maybe comparing apples and oranges here. Karate and ball room dancing is learning not training. If you re-read my comment, I am making a general assumption that most of us think we know how to ride and we ride well. Most of us are older, mature and don't take unnecessary risks. In general, we are not motorcycle riding learners. We ride motorcycles designed for touring and long distance. We are a sub-group of riders/owners that enjoy a very low risk for insurance comapnies.

I was attempting to explain John's lament that he had a low turnout of members from our DB for his training. Perhaps we smugly feel we already know how to ride well enough.

[Woodie]

I have to side with Bob on this one. Many guys I've met (young AND old), think that by being male, they already know how to ride a bike. This includes the sandals/t-shirts crowd, as well as the Sunday-only cruisers.

 

This group is not necessarily all that different, although of course we *wish* to say that we are. Probably more (s)miles here than other places, but mileage alone does not make you a better rider. Mileage does tend to be an indicator that you ARE a better rider, but it's a trailing indicator, not a leading indicator.

 

[pmdave]

"No damage to the bike or gear, one broken rib from hitting the handle bars.

I'm a dick, i know, way to fast."

 

uhhh, no, it wasn't so much a matter of speed, but of really lousy cornering tactics, including your entry line. If you enter a corner pointing off the road, why wouldn't the bike want to go there?

 

There are lots of riders out there who could use some education. I suspect that those who hang around this forum do so because they are already very skilled and knowlegable. The riders who need education most seem to be the least likely to realize that. I agree that (in general) motorcyclists don't seek training because they got into motorcycling as a means to "freedom", so they aren't interested in someone else telling them what to do.

 

My observation is that the most likely participants in training are those who are already motivated to learn more. That's not to say we shouldn't take available courses, but that those of us in the know should use our talents to convince the unskilled riders to get more education.

 

pmdave

[motoguy128]

My observation is that the most likely participants in training are those who are already motivated to learn more. That's not to say we shouldn't take available courses, but that those of us in the know should use our talents to convince the unskilled riders to get more education.

 

pmdave

 

That freedom also includes not wearing a helmet. And not suprisingly, based on my observations, they are the segment that is in the greatest need of training because they are at the highest risk when they do eventually crash. Althouhg just convincing some of them to ride sober would be a good start in the "training" process.

[Bernie]

Motorman, I think the problem with the SC school from BMW-MOA is or was for me that it sounded like another ERC course and not what you described.

I just took the Total Control school, Level 1 in September and can't wait for the local guy to offer Level 2.

But I think anything is better then nothing. And yes, I suck also at U-turns.

[Matts_12GS]

It's all about the motivation to do so...

 

Some folks look at the Spartanburg stuff as superior because it is BMW branded. Some look at RideSmart as the answer, others track days...

 

The common denominator is that training is good if you apply what you have learned positively.

 

Until just recently, I had never done any kind of braking drills or any kind of precise turning drills. After doing them for about 40 minutes, I did a near lock circle on my GS as well as cut my stopping time quite a bit from the first try.

 

But, for most of us, there's time to ride or there's time to train. I'd be willing to bet that's a larger part of the equation than has been discussed.

[JayW]

I think one difference between those who go to training and those who don't is the difference between those who are satisfied with their skills and those who are not.

 

The course in SC was the 7th training class I have taken, including 2 on the race track. My steepest learning curves each year are always at such classes. In spite of this, I am not at all satisfied with my level of riding skill and in fact probably never will be. If I ever get too satisfied all I have to do is watch someone like Motorman587 and I am immediately humbled and thinking about what I need to to do get better. This truth is actually one of the great appeals of motorcycling for me, ie, there is always a higher plane of skill development and motorcycle control to reach for.

 

I want to get better not only to gain the personal satisfaction of riding a motorcycle the right way and thereby enjoying it more, but also to improve my odds of not crashing, which is REALLY important to me. My wife also feels better about all the riding I do if I take a class or 2 each year.

 

There must be more to it than this though. I am curious Motorman587, why did you take the class, given that the exercises seemed like child's play to you even on your first attempts?

 

Jay

[Groanup]

"It is about the money?? Do people not want to pay for training?? Or lack of information about schools, but with google seach or any other engine seach?? Just wondering??"

 

From another perspective...

I've been riding for 35 years now, without ever once taking a rider training course of any kind. I've learned how to do things the hard way... Trial and error. Thankfully without too much of the error part.

After reading these threads now for a few weeks, I have learned a few things that I did not know, (or did not know I already knew). I've learned a lot by just reading What some of you more learned riders share here, and I have come to the conclusion that I could really use some training after all. I'm now looking onto taking the ERC. I don't have a lot of "disposable" income, but I believe I'll easily get my $100 worth.

For me, it's not that I think I'm already a "good enough" rider, but rather that I just never thought about training until I joined this board. I think that, sadly, a lot of untrained riders fall into my category.

[motorman587]

There must be more to it than this though. I am curious Motorman587, why did you take the class, given that the exercises seemed like child's play to you even on your first attempts?

Jay

 

Sure, some the exercise i.e. the u-turn where easy for me, but as a motor cop for the last 15 years I have found that your survival skill, i.e. curve negotiation, swerving to avoid, braking are all perishable items.

 

Why I took the class was because I wanted to know what the BMW course was about. The BMW course an ERC on steroids. The braking was above 50 mph, there was an exercise to practice your ABS, there was the swerve again above 50 mph. I also like the "laid back" instructor, where when you went back in line you could pratice some the skills taught.

 

I also take the techniques learned and take it back to the department, i.e. the swerve technique was totally defferent, pull in clutch and roll of the thottle, and we did that in our in service training yesterday. So it was also for new ideas.

 

In future I would like to take the RideSmart course as it sounds like it focuses on curve negotiation, which is the number #1 killer in motorcycle operation, number #2 being, motorcycle vs. vehicle. So all skills are important.

 

Someone posted they have been riding for 35 years and nothing has every happened. That is great, but me, as the profession I am in, see it differently. I see it as, most officers will ride around in their patrol and never fire a round in their career. However, they are trained in how to shoot. They are trained for every case possible. You should do the same in motorcycle training. Train for every case possible, braking, for the car pulling out in front of you, curve negotiation, in case you hit false neutral, ABS braking, in case you get into the ABS mode. See it as a survival skill and not on how tight you can make a u-turn.

[Huzband]

Someone posted they have been riding for 35 years and nothing has every happened. That is great, but me, as the profession I am in, see it differently. I see it as, most officers will ride around in their patrol and never fire a round in their career. However, they are trained in how to shoot. They are trained for every case possible. You should do the same in motorcycle training. Train for every case possible, braking, for the car pulling out in front of you, curve negotiation, in case you hit false neutral, ABS braking, in case you get into the ABS mode. See it as a survival skill and not on how tight you can make a u-turn.

 

John, that's the best summation for continuing-ed I've ever read. Thanks.

[Bill_Walker]

Most of us on this discussion board feel we are the best riders in the world. Getting training is admitting you have a problem.

 

I don't think most of us (here, at least) work like that. I went and got a bunch of training (BRC/ERC/CSS/Spencer). NOW I feel I'm the best rider in the world.

[pmdave]

[quote=motoguy128

That freedom also includes not wearing a helmet. And not suprisingly, based on my observations, they are the segment that is in the greatest need of training because they are at the highest risk when they do eventually crash. Althouhg just convincing some of them to ride sober would be a good start in the "training" process.

 

Motoguy128 makes a couple of good points here. Do the participants in this forum scratch our heads merely for our own amusement, or do we feel some sort of mandate to do something about the carnage?

 

I think the issues raised by the original question relate to improving skills. May I suggest that once you've learned the basic physical control skills to make the bike go where you want, the lion's share of what comes next is working on mental skills. My observation (as an old geezer) is that we can learn in a variety of ways. I've done my time teaching, and I know the value of a formal training course. But much of what I've learned has been through trial-and-error. So, may I suggest that the subject be broadened from "training" to "learning"?

 

I bring this up, because on my occasional lurks in this forum, it is clear to me that there are a number of very experienced and skilled riders offering their insights. Of course, that's potentially helpful to the other participants, who may learn something new (to them) here.

 

May I suggest to anyone here who is thinking about improving riding skills, that one good way to approach the next level is to get involved in teaching--either as a mentor or as a certified instructor. My experience has been that the teacher always learns more than the student. For instance, if you attempt to teach someone about countersteering, you may need to bone up on the hows, whys, whens, etc. to get through the mental fog, and that makes you more knowledgable. What's more, being able to do something and being able to teach someone else to do something are two entirely different spheres of influence.

 

With over 5,000 motorcycle fatalities nationwide every year, it seems that there must be all sorts of ways we can work our magic to affect the situation. For openers, when you run into some obvious novice, slow down your rush and spend a few minutes talking to him or her. Find questions that lead to more questions rather than rebuttals.

 

And, I agree that alcohol abuse is one of the big issues. I'm just not very good yet at being able to put the right questions to those who haven't figured out that motorcycling is too demanding to attempt with a drug influenced brain. Personally, I make a point of not drinking alcohol before or during a ride. But how should I address other riders--or a club--about the issue? For instance, I'm a member of a BMW group that often uses the term "barley therapy" in relation to events and rides. I'd prefer to see more separation of "barley therapy" from motorcycling, at least with notes that the "barley therapy" was postponed until after the ride was over. Should I attempt a "doomed to failure" campaign to sway the other members? Or should I vote with my wallet and just fail to renew my membership? We all face the same sorts of questions in our relationships to other riders. But I think getting involved happens to be a way to get smarter.

 

pmdave

 

 

[roadscholar]

Dave, great post, spoken like the pro you are. For years I instructed students how to drive their high performance cars on racetracks but was never a very good instructor. I could show them but always had trouble explaining it. And you're right, by trying I was learning as much as the student.

 

An excellent point on chatting with less experienced riders when the oppotunity arises. I've found many respect someone riding a big sport-touring or adventure bike decked out in gear. I think most would be receptive depending on the circumstances.

 

 

 

[Matts_12GS]

... And you're right, by trying I was learning as much as the student.

 

Shakespeare said "To teach, is to learn again..."

 

Back when I was in the training business, I used that as a motto for every class I taught.

[Huzband]

... And you're right, by trying I was learning as much as the student.

 

Shakespeare said "To teach, is to learn again..."

 

Back when I was in the training business, I used that as a motto for every class I taught.

 

And to expound further on this point, I learned even more about RideSmart when I was an instructor last year.

 

Bill, you really should figure out how to teach as well as you know how to ride/drive. You'd be outstanding!

[roadscholar]

I don't know. I think I'd rather enjoy sort of a dual-sport class, although I tried it locally, there wasn't a great deal of interest.

 

I instructed at Jennings a few years but not so much technique, more where the line was. I had Rightspin and Dean at their first trackday one year, by the afternoon they were lapping me.

[Huzband]

As was mentioned before, it's awefully hard to teach guys that already think they know how to ride.

 

I thought I knew plenty when I took my RideSmart class. I was even a bit smug about the first exercise. I'm sure Shawn remembers. It was that day that, after 38 years in the saddle, I found out how much I DIDN'T know.

 

It changed my riding life.

[motorman587]

Is this example of RideSmart too???

[Paul Mihalka]

Is this example of RideSmart too???

 

My $.02 about the picture: I would leave my butt centered on the seat and move my upper body to the inside bending a bit my inside elbow, more or less "kissing the mirror". Sliding your butt off center on the seat hinders quick line corrections you might need on a public road.

[Woodie]

Is this example of RideSmart too???

He's on the correct side of the yellow line, and he's leaned the right way.

[Matts_12GS]

I'd say he's in much better shape than many on that road.

 

Bill, I'd like to try a dual sport class with you if you're still game. I know I got out with you guys once and found out how much I didn't know. I've got a copy of that Dual sport technique DVD, maybe we can get together and you and Danny can school me on some off pavement stuff?

 

 

[tallman]

You can go and not drink.

Lead by example.

Or, you can go to a "sponsored" barley therapy, drink, crash, and sue the "sponsors".

Either will be noticed.

 

Too many people die on motorcycles because they drink and ride. I think the "I'm in control" attitude and it won't happen to me POV are predominant in many crashes.

This would include riding too fast for conditions, riding faster than you are comfortable with the pace, riding w/less than ideal gear. And, in some case, w/a poorly maintained motorcycle.

I won't even go into the unlicensed biker issue.

"Training" will only benefit those who wish to take a look at what they are presently doing and examine that for any needs to change/improve.

Most of the time a person who feels that they don't need to change will not change, nor will they look objectively at their choices.

If you have friends in the group, maintain your relationship, be yourself.

If they don't like that, move on.

Best wishes.

 

[pmdave]

re: the "barley therapy" club, it's national, so if I have any friends, it's because of other relationships, such as MOA membership.

 

One big problem with allowing or encouraging booze at a motorcycle event is that if someone is seriously injured or killed, the club gets sued. If the club isn't incorporated, the lawsuit can name all the current members of the club--not just the officers.

 

That was the situation at a state BMW club a few years ago. The annual rally was well known for it's open keg policy. They would buy more kegs as they were drained, and anyone could just walk up and help themselves at any time. This type of barley therapy was so much a part of the rally that the officers were hostile when I mentioned the liability. I dropped out of the club. One of my friends got his company lawyer to draw up incorporatioin papers for the club so that he could continue to participate with some liability protection.

 

I did a seminar a few years ago for a HOG chapter in the WA DC area. Their local chapter has an ironclad rule that if anyone drinks during the ride, the ride is ended then and there. Frankly I was amazed at the chutzpah of the club to make and enforce that rule, but I applaud it.

 

I encourage everyone to keep addressing such issues as well as other riding skills and knowledge. And note that sometimes you don't realize the effect you've had until years later. It takes some folks about two years to figure something out. In terms of any organized courses, it may take two years for local riders to realize it is happening, so figure on not seeing much interest until about year 3. In any case, do it.

 

pmdave

[LuckyLeif]

Is this example of RideSmart too???

Might want to move his right foot back a little so the ball of the foot is squarely on the peg and ankle is tucked tightly into the frame (toe looks to be the first contact point in current placement). I understand Paul's point, but I think that shifting ones butt a little can better change combined CoG. BUT, as Paul says, it's impt that the upper body also needs to shift into the turn (and it's hard to see if this is being done from the angle of this shot). For most riders and most roads, the mirror-kiss / butt-centered position would be sufficient. Also, scooting bside to side in the saddle, esp in a series of esses, is a skill that requires practice and timing or the bikes stance & suspension could be impacted negatively. Training where an instructor observes and critiques is likely the best way for most folks to learn these skills. RideSmart is one option ... there are others.

[lawnchairboy]

I need some training for off road as well.

[pmdave]

re: killboy image

 

The first thing I noticed is that he's pointed wide. That's usually a result of a way-too-early apex. At this point, I'd vote for pushing hard on that inside grip to get the bike turned.

 

pmdave

[russell_bynum]

re: killboy image

 

The first thing I noticed is that he's pointed wide. That's usually a result of a way-too-early apex. At this point, I'd vote for pushing hard on that inside grip to get the bike turned.

 

pmdave

 

It's hard to see what's really going on with the limited view that we've got, but I had the same thought that you did. Sure looks like he's turned early and is now headed wide.

 

Body position isn't bad...could use more "kiss the mirrors" and there's not much point in moving his butt off to the inside, but that's not technically "wrong". One thing is for sure...he's going to need another steering input and more lean angle to make this turn. He's got plenty of lean angle to spare, and he appears to be looking up through the turn, so I'd say there's a good chance that he pulled it off.

[Lone_RT_rider]

Someone posted they have been riding for 35 years and nothing has every happened. That is great, but me, as the profession I am in, see it differently. I see it as, most officers will ride around in their patrol and never fire a round in their career. However, they are trained in how to shoot. They are trained for every case possible. You should do the same in motorcycle training. Train for every case possible, braking, for the car pulling out in front of you, curve negotiation, in case you hit false neutral, ABS braking, in case you get into the ABS mode. See it as a survival skill and not on how tight you can make a u-turn.

 

John, that's the best summation for continuing-ed I've ever read. Thanks.

 

Agreed. As soon as I am done with my yearly trek in China, we can get this party started. Planning session at Cedar Key?

 

Miss you guys....

 

On the other hand, my Chinese is getting much better@ Way nee-how! (yes, I know the spelling isn't right).

[tallman]

Planning session at Cedar Key?

Y knot.

[Matts_12GS]

In for planning too.

 

Casa Mateo is open for that Friday Shawn

[Huzband]

I guess I'm going to Cedar Key.

[Matts_12GS]

The probably inn is just down from Frog's Landing