180

[LeftCoastMan]

The past two days, I was touring Kings Canyon and Sequoia National Parks in the Sierras. It's going to start snowing there soon, and the cool fresh air was just wonderful.

 

The ride was exhausting, mostly because of the rather huge number of 180º switchbacks in the road going up and down from the mountains. I just don't know how to handle them. I would downshift to 1st gear, then urge the bike into the turn as best as I could, going as slow as 10-15 mph. I wasn't holding up traffic, because the cars and other bikes weren't doing much better. I followed a K1200LT for awhile, and I wasn't sure if I should be embarrassed that I couldn't do the switchbacks faster than him.

 

Any suggestions? Or are they just impossible to hit a faster speed?

 

Also, I kept getting freaked out by other turns where there wasn't much between me, the road, and a 1000' fall to death. My hands are still sore from so many clutch pulls. I'm sure I took a year off the life of my clutch.

 

Again, any suggestions?

 

I want to do the ride again, but I want to make sure I know how to handle it better.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Don't know what to tell you about the switchbacks. They usually require that you commit to the turn and get your bike leaned over quickly the just rail on through under mild acceleration. 2nd gear might be better than first as it is easier to modulate throttle.

 

Don't look over there for the other stuff. Get your head turned and your eyes on the road ahead. Sounds like your vision is not far enough up the road. Really, at the turn in point, your eyes should at least be looking up to the apex. At the apex, you should already be looking at the exit point if not further. There is nothing to see at the verge that will help you.

[270]

Alright, try this:

 

Set up the turn on the outside. As you approach the turn, shift down to the appropriate gear. Shift your weight to your outside (side opposite of the direction of your turn), and look back over your shoulder to where you want to be when your turn is completed, and ride to it. Remember; you need to roll on the throttle, and do not decelerate or ride the clutch.

 

I've over simplified a bit, but you WILL GO where you look. Slow, look, press and roll.

 

HTH...

[VinnyR11]

Don't know what to tell you about the switchbacks. They usually require that you commit to the turn and get your bike leaned over quickly the just rail on through under mild acceleration. 2nd gear might be better than first as it is easier to modulate throttle.

 

Don't look over there for the other stuff. Get your head turned and your eyes on the road ahead. Sounds like your vision is not far enough up the road. Really, at the turn in point, your eyes should at least be looking up to the apex. At the apex, you should already be looking at the exit point if not further. There is nothing to see at the verge that will help you.

 

Very good advise. I think it's much more difficult for those of us who, in general, fear heights or edges with large drops. Ed's point: "Don't look over there for the other stuff. Get your head turned and your eyes on the road ahead." is key.

 

As in any case where fear creeps in, it's important to stay relatively loose on your grips and body position. No white knuckles or rigor mortis. Controlled breathing or knowing some breathing exercises really help.

 

I happen to find 1st better than 2nd in tight switchbacks, but different (shovel)strokes for different folks. On my R11 I had to take it in 2nd because the engine mapping stunk on that bike. The R12 is fine in first for me.

 

One very big thing that got me to improve dramatically in switchbacks or turns with big drop-offs is that I no longer care "if I can keep up with or pass that LT". It's very normal, and I used to do it all the time. Now, I don't even think about it. I just look ahead and ride my pace, and sure enough you get wherever you want to go and IMO, because of the comfort level and less stress, you wind up riding faster and safer.

 

So, ride your ride, stay loose, breath consciously, look ahead as far into the turn as you can, completely ignore the "bad stuff", and don't ever think about if that guy/gal can take this turn faster than you.

 

No matter what, there are tons of people who will be slower and even more fearful, and an order of magnitude more who wouldn't even throw a leg over a bike. So...you're doing great!

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Alright, try this:

 

Set up the turn on the outside. As you approach the turn, shift down to the appropriate gear. Shift your weight to your outside (side opposite of the direction of your turn), and look back over your shoulder to where you want to be when your turn is completed, and ride to it. Remember; you need to roll on the throttle, and do not decelerate or ride the clutch.

 

+1. If you're getting down to first gear, then you're basically at parking-lot speeds, and you can ride through the turn as if you're in a parking lot. Vinny's got it: counterbalance (lean to the OUTside of the turn), and look back over your shoulder toward where the road is headed. If you make a habit of looking over your shoulder during parking-lot driving and left/right turns at city intersections, the head-turn becomes easier to do in the switchbacks.

 

Find an empty parking lot and practice those first-gear U-turns, remembering those two things: counterbalance and look over your shoulder.

[270]

Another thing that people tend to do for some reason; they often enter the turn, but quit turning about halfway through. On slow turns, let the bike lean beneath you (counterbalance) and keep looking towards the spot where you want to be.

 

Per Mitch's suggestion: do find a parking lot and practice. I think you'll eventually find that tight switch backs are fun, especially on a BMW R bike with the clearance and suspension!

[upflying]

My biggest concerns about switchback is gravel, sand and other snot. Long wheelbase vehicles can kick a lot of debris into the turn. go easy.

[LeftCoastMan]

Some great advice here. Some of it is kind of counterintuitive.

 

I do have a horrible fear of heights, so steep drop offs are hard on me psychologically. I've learned how to handle it by focusing on the road, rather than what's off to the sides. Sadly, unless I stop, I never get to enjoy the sights, and in those National Parks, there are a lot of sights.

 

I do look at my line in turns. But it's hard to do in a switchback, because, usually there are trees or mountain blocking the view of the exit from the switchback. So, I'm worried about rocks in the road (frequent), a slow vehicle ahead of me, and whatever else. In fact, I came around a switchback at about 10 mph, and there was deer standing in the road. For some reason, breaking hard at slow speed is scarier than at high speed.

 

I tried not to ride the clutch into the turn, because I wanted the ability accelerate a bit if I was losing momentum in the turn. A couple of times, I did the turn perfectly. A couple of times, I lost momentum and felt like the bike was going to drop. Most of the times, my turns were just plain average!

 

Well, I guess I did OK. I'm glad I didn't read a bunch of you say, "yeah, you're incompetent, I do those turns at around 50 mph."

 

By the way, what do you mean by "roll the throttle"?

[LeftCoastMan]

I'm still having a bit of difficulty imagining this. It sounds like I'm not suppose to lean into the turn, I'm supposed to lean against it? Won't the bike want to wander into the oncoming lane?

 

Maybe I'm missing something.

[LeftCoastMan]

My biggest concerns about switchback is gravel, sand and other snot. Long wheelbase vehicles can kick a lot of debris into the turn. go easy.

 

And deer!

[jaytee]

I'm still having a bit of difficulty imagining this. It sounds like I'm not suppose to lean into the turn, I'm supposed to lean against it? Won't the bike want to wander into the oncoming lane?

 

Maybe I'm missing something.

 

When you counterbalance it's letting the bike lean into the turn while you stasy more-or-less upright, it lets the bike turn you instead of the other way around and is very helpful during slow speed turns and u-turns. You weight the *outside* butt-cheek as the bike drops to the inside. You do not countersteer, you counter-weight.

 

Not sure if that helps, but I find I only counterweight on u-turns and VERY slow speed, tight turning..

 

Hmmm... Another way of thinking about it is that's how dirtbikes are often ridden. The rider stays upright and the bike slides around under them. Same thing in wind. You stay upright in wind and the bike leans into it while maintaining a straight line.

 

Good luck!

 

JT

[tobyzusa]

Interesting thread.

 

While I agree that you really need to swivel your head like Linda Blair and look for the vanishing point, you also need to sweep your eyes in close and check the road surface. Switchbacks are notorious for having gravel, sand, and other types of crud on them, usually kicked up from trucks that drag their trailer across the shoulder.

 

In general, you should be able to negotiate most switchbacks with enough speed to avoid the need to counterbalance. If you're going that slowly, I think you may be introducing additional variables into the equation that may not be helpful in your pursuit of switchback proficiency.

 

[motorman587]

Ride your own ride. I can be fast too, on a close road course, however in the real world I tone it back to 80% on what I can do, giving me 20% to maneuver in case of the hazards mentioned above.

 

If you are riding because of fear, I would highly take a professionaly motorcycle class. I would take an ERC and then it a track some where. Where you live is that not the sport bike racing capital?? No?

 

I agree what all is said above, looking, the line, weight shift, being carefull.

[AviP]

I'm still having a bit of difficulty imagining this. It sounds like I'm not suppose to lean into the turn, I'm supposed to lean against it? Won't the bike want to wander into the oncoming lane?

 

Maybe I'm missing something.

 

When you counterbalance it's letting the bike lean into the turn while you stasy more-or-less upright, it lets the bike turn you instead of the other way around and is very helpful during slow speed turns and u-turns. You weight the *outside* butt-cheek as the bike drops to the inside. You do not countersteer, you counter-weight.

 

Not sure if that helps, but I find I only counterweight on u-turns and VERY slow speed, tight turning..

 

Hmmm... Another way of thinking about it is that's how dirtbikes are often ridden. The rider stays upright and the bike slides around under them. Same thing in wind. You stay upright in wind and the bike leans into it while maintaining a straight line.

+1

 

Basically for the tight radius needed, if you were to lean into the turn, your thigh would block the fuel tank (and bike) from making the turn.

 

Note that it is also common to scrape the pegs (or bodywork) in tight turns. This is normal and while a good ego booster, it's doesn't really signify any improved skill.

[4wheeldog]

I went over Sonora pass recently. I had the good fortune to follow a couple of construction pickups over the top. Was I embarrassed that I could not pass them? Hell no. They obviously knew the road from frequent trips, and when they slowed WAAAYY down for a corner, it was because that was the wise move. Experience with a particular set of turns trumps cajones every time.

[motoguy128]

If these switchbacks are anything like those at Deals Gap or Pike's Peak, I think it's just a matter of sighting a good line, keeping your body relaxed, pick a line/arc and hold it until you reach the exit keeping some light throttle so your very slowly accelrating through the turn, so your not fighting drivetrain lash.

 

I think clutching just complicates matters. If anything you'd be better off just applying the rear brake lightly to control your speed.

 

As for braking at low speeds... it should only be done when upright, otherwise it's easy to lose your balance with the front wheel turned. If you're only going 10mph, you can stop in a very short distance. No need to panic, finish the turn, strighten up and roll off the throttle. At 10mph, just rolling of the throttle will have you slowed to about 5mph pretty fast.

 

I've never heard of anyone hitting a deer at 10mph. They will run off before you hit them at those low speeds. Sometimes it take a honk of the horn to get their attention.

[ragtoplvr]

I ride a R1150RS. It is VERY comfortable, and fits me very well.

 

When I get into the tight switchbacks that are uphill any at all, I find that at full lean, I can not get my head far enough back to see as far up the corner as I would like. My helmet, and every FF helmet I have owned is digging into my back. I am as far forward as the seat allows, and I am leaning into the turn, and forward as you are supposed to. Some of these turns I can only look about 30 or 40 feet ahead, which makes being smooth and keeping a good line a challenge. I will admit, I have a shorter neck than many, and it is big, if I wear a tie I have to have expensive shirts, a 19 inch neck with 32/33 sleeves is hard to find, and I do not have much of a tail on the tie either.

 

Any suggestions on what to do, other than go to a RT or get bar backs, which will make my normal riding possibly less comfortable.

 

Rod

Rod

[LeftCoastMan]

I really appreciate all of this advice. I was actually doing what all of you suggested (now that I understood what was meant by leaning), I just thought I was some noob because I could fly through the turn at 50 mph. I'm now happy with what I did, maybe with more experience, I can up my cornering speed on these switchbacks safely by a few mph.

 

I've been riding a bike a long time, and I'm not afraid of much but crazy drivers. I do have a fear of heights which short of several thousand dollars in therapy, no motorcycle class is going to help. But I did take one nevertheless.

 

There was one deer on the road, and just stood there like it owned the road. Seriously, just stared me down, it was amusing. The honk didn't work. It finally wandered off to eat some grass. Maybe deer in National Parks just aren't afraid of humans.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Lots of videos on YouTube. Here's a good one on making U-turns; it's shown in slow-motion (the big twin sounds like a steam locomotive ) to allow you time to study what's going on. The captioned advice is all applicable to first-gear switchbacks, which are essentially the same as U-turns.

 

Some comedy thrown in, too. He gives a lot of good advice, although I think he doesn't effectively demonstrate the head-turn or the counterbalance-lean.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[LeftCoastMan]

I owe you all a beer. Of course, AFTER we're done riding! Really, the advice is amazing. With the down economy there are a lot of empty parking lots in SoCal I can use for riding. And if I fall over, there will be no one behind me to run me over!

[basilr]

When in doubt, countersteer.

[Francois_Dumas]

I wasn't sure I should reply on this one....... considering myself a switchback expert *cough* with 40+ years under my belt, and then dropping the bike in one this Summer

 

What caught my eye in your original question though was the mention of 'speed'.

I don't know why you worry about that... switchbacks are the ONE place where there is no need nor desire to speed. They are notoriously 'dangerous' because of the sharp turn and bad visibility through it, and they are there because the road is too steep to make it a normal turn.

 

All reasons to take it very 'easy' when entering and riding/driving through.

 

One thing I have not seen mentioned in the previous replies is on how to encounter RIGHT turns..... the regular technique there is to move to the LEFT of the road before entering the turn, so as to make it wider, then cut to the inside apex.

 

Of course you can only do this when there's no oncoming traffic.... yet another reason to go slow if you have bad visibility.

 

Lastly, I don't know if I would really enjoy my ride if it would be white-knuckle stuff only....... maybe learning the proper technique can alleviate that and make you more secure.

[Polo]

I went over Sonora pass recently. I had the good fortune to follow a couple of construction pickups over the top. Was I embarrassed that I could not pass them? Hell no. They obviously knew the road from frequent trips, and when they slowed WAAAYY down for a corner, it was because that was the wise move. Experience with a particular set of turns trumps cajones every time.

 

I agree with you. Just an observation, the word is "COJONES". Cajones means drawers,

 

When it rains, I slow down; I think rain makes me leave my cojones in one of my dressers cajones.

[Ken H.]

As someone who wrecked big time in a switchback, I’m not sure I’m qualified to reply to this, but having ‘nonwrecked’ on a lot of them before and since then, I’ll give a couple of thoughts…

 

First, I think the technique has to be very different, uphill vs. downhill, and right hand vs. left handed switchbacks...

 

Right handed & uphill: Beware getting too low into the ‘bowl’, the center swale: You want to stay near the centerline right up to the apex point, which is then basically a turn to straight up the hill. If you get to low into the inside too soon, you will be much more likely to kick/swing up and out of the bowl and thus into the oncoming lane. Available power is your friend because as you complete the turn at apex pointing upward, you want the power to be readily available to pull you to upright and up the hill. I.e. be in the correct gear beforehand. If not, the bike may ‘tuck in’ further leading you to the inside where space is often limited.

 

Left handed & uphill: Again the centerline is your friend, although this time because of the aforementioned debris issue often near the outside edges. And as you apply power to begin/continue the pull up the hill, the bike will straighten up and you want the room to go to the outside as needed. If you had started way outside you wouldn’t have anywhere to go. Also, sometimes the outside lane can be off camber on a switchback, so getting outside too soon can cause lean clearance issues.

 

Right hand & downhill: On down hills I think engine RPM modulation is the key, not brakes (or clutching). Let it scream as needed and be prepared to lean suddenly hard as you make a very quick abrupt right hand turn downhill from center/mid lane, AND don’t be scared of the bike gaining speed as you turn at the apex and head down. Any excess speed can easily be scrubbed off shortly after the turn. At the apex leaned over hard is not the time to be upsetting the bike with a new (braking) input. Carrying through with your speed ‘committal’ to the turn is key.

 

Left hand & downhill: Similar to left hand & uphill, staying out of the inside dip/bowl is key. First, it will almost certainly be full of junk. Secondly, you want be able to do a hard over at the apex and if you are inside, your clearance to do so will be less. Start at the centerline and at the apex hard over toward a mid lane exit point without significant power increase or decrease until you are exiting the turn.

 

And of course through all of them as mentioned by others, turning your neck further than it may have ever been early is manditory. Look way up the hill. Way down too on them.

 

Personally, I don’t agree with counter leaning that some are advocating in this thread. In left handers (uphill or down), because of the off camber issue, bike clearance may be already compromised some, and counter leaning yourself, to lean the bike more, is just going to aggravate the situation. In right handers, counter leaning gains you nothing but putting yourself further toward/over the centerline. Plus also you then have to lean the bike even further to maintain the desired arc. Add in a sudden hard over at the apex and you may be out of bike clearance and either lowside or go wide. In all of turning of a motorcycle the goal is to minimize bike lean, maximize clearance. Switchbacks IMHO are no different. Get yourself inside so as to keep the bike as upright as possible.

 

The important thing to remember with switchbacks is that they are decreasing radius turns. They should not be ridden as if we can plot a continuous rate arc through them. Rather they are ridden arching in to an apex point, then hard over toward the exit point.

 

I think switchbacks are one area of riding where the old, “outside (of my lane), inside, outside” axiom doesn’t necessarily apply. On lefthanders the outside is fraught with pearl, “mid (lane), inside, inside” might be a better mantra. On right handers, “outside, outside, mid.”

 

That’s my (almost) 2¢ Canadian.

 

[LeftCoastMan]

I wasn't sure I should reply on this one....... considering myself a switchback expert *cough* with 40+ years under my belt, and then dropping the bike in one this Summer

 

What caught my eye in your original question though was the mention of 'speed'.

I don't know why you worry about that... switchbacks are the ONE place where there is no need nor desire to speed. They are notoriously 'dangerous' because of the sharp turn and bad visibility through it, and they are there because the road is too steep to make it a normal turn.

 

I was only concerned if I needed to improve my driving skills. I was going so slow and being so careful, I just needed some confirmation that I was doing things right, or if I needed to improve my skills. I was doing it right, I now have some ideas on how to improve my handling of the switchbacks, and I'm feeling pretty confident about riding them again.

 

Lastly, I don't know if I would really enjoy my ride if it would be white-knuckle stuff only....... maybe learning the proper technique can alleviate that and make you more secure.

 

It's just an irrational fear thing about heights. I've learned how to conquer it over the years (several million miles on commercial airliners tend to help overcome a whole series of fears). So I only get white knuckles when I look up to take in the view!

 

 

[CoarsegoldKid]

A lot of what others have said are good things to think about. I live and ride in the switchback country of what you speak. Much of the time I just leave the bike in 1st gear if the turns are close together otherwise I use 2nd gear and the occasional downshift for the 180 turn. Look where I want the bike to go. Scan the road for debris before you are upon it. And lastly if you aren't comfortable remember slow is better than down. Yes it can get tiring but unless you do it all the time that is the way it's going to be.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I'll add yet another observation from my own riding that has made it easier for me to deal with switchbacks in whatever form.

 

I'll often double apex the things, squaring off the midpoint of the turn by briefly straightening up the bike and then diving back down. This works pretty much in conjunction with what Ken talked about above and, had he applied it, probably would have prevented his crash on the Dragon.

 

In slow and a way late turn in. Straighten the bike to cut across the outside of the lane. Then turn in late again to avoid the uncertainties of the natural apex of the turn be they changes in camber, debris on the inside caused by cars dragging gravel out or the odd curious chipmonk.

[tobyzusa]

As someone who wrecked big time in a switchback, I’m not sure I’m qualified to reply to this, but having ‘nonwrecked’ on a lot of them before and since then, I’ll give a couple of thoughts…

 

First, I think the technique has to be very different, uphill vs. downhill, and right hand vs. left handed switchbacks...

 

Right handed & uphill: Beware getting too low into the ‘bowl’, the center swale: You want to stay near the centerline right up to the apex point, which is then basically a turn to straight up the hill. If you get to low into the inside too soon, you will be much more likely to kick/swing up and out of the bowl and thus into the oncoming lane. Available power is your friend because as you complete the turn at apex pointing upward, you want the power to be readily available to pull you to upright and up the hill. I.e. be in the correct gear beforehand. If not, the bike may ‘tuck in’ further leading you to the inside where space is often limited.

 

Left handed & uphill: Again the centerline is your friend, although this time because of the aforementioned debris issue often near the outside edges. And as you apply power to begin/continue the pull up the hill, the bike will straighten up and you want the room to go to the outside as needed. If you had started way outside you wouldn’t have anywhere to go. Also, sometimes the outside lane can be off camber on a switchback, so getting outside too soon can cause lean clearance issues.

 

Right hand & downhill: On down hills I think engine RPM modulation is the key, not brakes (or clutching). Let it scream as needed and be prepared to lean suddenly hard as you make a very quick abrupt right hand turn downhill from center/mid lane, AND don’t be scared of the bike gaining speed as you turn at the apex and head down. Any excess speed can easily be scrubbed off shortly after the turn. At the apex leaned over hard is not the time to be upsetting the bike with a new (braking) input. Carrying through with your speed ‘committal’ to the turn is key.

 

Left hand & downhill: Similar to left hand & uphill, staying out of the inside dip/bowl is key. First, it will almost certainly be full of junk. Secondly, you want be able to do a hard over at the apex and if you are inside, your clearance to do so will be less. Start at the centerline and at the apex hard over toward a mid lane exit point without significant power increase or decrease until you are exiting the turn.

 

And of course through all of them as mentioned by others, turning your neck further than it may have ever been early is manditory. Look way up the hill. Way down too on them.

 

Personally, I don’t agree with counter leaning that some are advocating in this thread. In left handers (uphill or down), because of the off camber issue, bike clearance may be already compromised some, and counter leaning yourself, to lean the bike more, is just going to aggravate the situation. In right handers, counter leaning gains you nothing but putting yourself further toward/over the centerline. Plus also you then have to lean the bike even further to maintain the desired arc. Add in a sudden hard over at the apex and you may be out of bike clearance and either lowside or go wide. In all of turning of a motorcycle the goal is to minimize bike lean, maximize clearance. Switchbacks IMHO are no different. Get yourself inside so as to keep the bike as upright as possible.

 

The important thing to remember with switchbacks is that they are decreasing radius turns. They should not be ridden as if we can plot a continuous rate arc through them. Rather they are ridden arching in to an apex point, then hard over toward the exit point.

 

I think switchbacks are one area of riding where the old, “outside (of my lane), inside, outside” axiom doesn’t necessarily apply. On lefthanders the outside is fraught with pearl, “mid (lane), inside, inside” might be a better mantra. On right handers, “outside, outside, mid.”

 

That’s my (almost) 2¢ Canadian.

 

Ken, this may be the first time you and I are in agreement about something. I’m marking this down in my calendar as a Red Letter Day !

[gottabmw]

Counter-balance in a switchback? I think the only times I've had to counter-balance is when I'm making a u-turn on a narrow two lane road or in parking lot situations. I've never seen a corner anywhere where I needed to actually counter-balance and I've ridden a lot of roads with 10-15 mph corners. A car (let alone a truck) wouldn't be able to navigate a corner so sharp it required counter-balancing on a motorcycle. I don't really lean into those kinds of curves but there definitely is no weight shifting to the outside.

[Francois_Dumas]

Counter-balance in a switchback? I think the only times I've had to counter-balance is when I'm making a u-turn on a narrow two lane road or in parking lot situations. I've never seen a corner anywhere where I needed to actually counter-balance and I've ridden a lot of roads with 10-15 mph corners.

 

Excuse me for 'assuming', but then I think you haven't ridden many of these roads yet..... I can assure you that you will NEED to counter balance when doing the right-hand turns on an RT with a passenger and meeting oncoming traffic. I also doubt we're talkin 10-15 mph here.... much sooner less-than-walking-pace at times.

 

[gottabmw]

Counter-balance in a switchback? I think the only times I've had to counter-balance is when I'm making a u-turn on a narrow two lane road or in parking lot situations. I've never seen a corner anywhere where I needed to actually counter-balance and I've ridden a lot of roads with 10-15 mph corners.

 

Excuse me for 'assuming', but then I think you haven't ridden many of these roads yet..... I can assure you that you will NEED to counter balance when doing the right-hand turns on an RT with a passenger and meeting oncoming traffic. I also doubt we're talkin 10-15 mph here.... much sooner less-than-walking-pace at times.

 

Well, like I said, "I've never seen a corner anywhere where I needed to actually counter-balance..." I didn't said I would never see one.

[Linz]

Francois, couldn't you see what's coming toward you on that road for a long way or are there blind spots? I'd use the whole road in that example and I wouldn't counter-lean.

There are other factors. What bike? Passenger? Do I know the road? Time of day? How do I feel? Raining?

 

On my almost weightless Laverda, I'd be up that road like a rat up a drainpipe.

 

Linz

[Francois_Dumas]

As we say in Holland: There's always boss above boss .....

 

One problem is that photos never really convey the actual situation.It is a lot steeper than it looks.

 

This shot is taken from above. When coming from below, as we did, you can not always see traffic coming down. Yes, I used the whole road, but with a loaded bike AND sudden traffic in one of the turns, you will have to go so slow that counterweight is natural.

 

It became a lot narrower on the Italian side, and that's when I droped the bike (as told in another ride tale).... first time ever.

 

That said I am sure there are better mountain riders than I am..... they whizz by me on their GS's all the time

[LeftCoastMan]

 

That's the kind of road I was riding, except there were trees and cliffs hiding the turns. I'm not saying that the road in this photo would be easy, but there is something about being able to see oncoming traffic that gives you a bit more margins of error in these turns. BTW, do you know where this road is? It looks like it's in the Alps or Pyrenees, way above the tree line.

[LeftCoastMan]

As we say in Holland: There's always boss above boss .....

 

I lived in the Netherlands for a few months, and what I remember most is great quotes and a wicked sense of humor. My favorite was flying from Rotterdam to Munich, and one of my Dutch friends telling me to ask them to send back the bicycles. I had no clue what it meant, until I read some books about the end of WWII.

[blackyam]

Hi. The only (very small) thing I have to add is that, if there's a vehicle ahead of me, I would want to wait for the vehicle ahead to round the switchback before I enter it in case that vehicle comes to a stop midway through for whatever reason. When I normally come to a stop on a level surface, I'm holding up my bike by standing on the ball of one foot, so I wouldn't want to come to a stop in the middle of a switchback turn.

 

---John.

[Francois_Dumas]

 

BTW, do you know where this road is? It looks like it's in the Alps or Pyrenees, way above the tree line.

 

Of course I know where it is... I took the picture (or rather my pillion did)

 

It is the Swiss (north side) end of the Splügen pass between Switzerland and Italy..... a few weeks ago.

[LeftCoastMan]

 

Of course I know where it is... I took the picture (or rather my pillion did)

 

It is the Swiss (north side) end of the Splügen pass between Switzerland and Italy..... a few weeks ago.

 

I'd love to see Le Tour de France on that switchback. Downhill, not uphill. I wonder how fast they could take it.

[Francois_Dumas]

LOL, faster than we on our m/c's. But it sometimes is pretty frustrating climbing these passes on the RT, only to find hundreds of people able to do it on a mere bicycle!

[LeftCoastMan]

LOL, faster than we on our m/c's. But it sometimes is pretty frustrating climbing these passes on the RT, only to find hundreds of people able to do it on a mere bicycle!

 

Lance Armstrong generates 2-4 HP to push a 16 lb bike plus his own weight, for a total of 150 lbs. Uphill. Amazing.

[Miriam]

I just don't know how to handle them.

This technique is what they teach us Dutch flat land folks when taking an advanced rider class in the Eifel or Ardennes:

 

1- As early as possible look up or down for oncoming traffic.

2- Scrub off your speed well ahead of the curve itself.

3- Position for maximum sight and look as far through the switchback as possible.

4- Downshift, let go of the front brake, keep your foot on the rear brake and enter the curve keeping the engine pulling.

5- Push the bike away from you through the switchback.

6- Let go of the rear brake when you’re ready to accelerate out of the curve.

 

Riders will on average enter switchbacks too fast, resulting in a bad line, going wide, braking or coasting. You can hear it when they hold the clutch all the way through the curve. Makes the bike balanced the wrong way, reduces ground clearance and lessens options in case you did miss a car coming. Also it feels distinctly uncomfortable.

 

The difficult part after learning this technique is to enter slow enough, but not too slow. Slow enough means that you were able to stay on the gas (be it ever so slightly at first) through the whole turn, no matter how tight it is or whether going up or down, except maybe for the really really steeps ones downhill.

 

Going down the mountain is generally easier with tight switchbacks. Also the gear you’re in doesn’t matter as much. But if you do need to get a foot down that can be tricky. Going up the mountain, also keep a foot on the rear brake when entering the switchback. It makes for a more stable and easier turning bike, even if it does feel counterintuitive to do so.

 

I’ve come across some passes in Italy that were tight and steep to the point of forbidden for anything larger than cars, no possibility for cars to pass and only just enough tarmac in the hairpins at all. Love ‘em! Some riders/drivers will honk when coming up on the switchback as a warning when sight is limited. In general drivers and riders on these narrow passes know how tight they are and will be cautious and courteous.

 

As for fear of heights. That is a problem, but very easy to get rid of. All you need is some rewiring, not therapy (although it is called ‘behavioral therapy’). Mine disappeared almost completely in just three sessions. Utterly curable, no need to talk about mom and dad at all.

 

[Marty Hill]

Hi Miriam.

 

Sending a PM and email.

[SweetP]

Marlin,

 

Motorman alluded to something that I sensed in your post: fear. Not just of heights but other demons, some real, some not.

 

I'm no expert in hairpins but I've managed to mostly overcome my own fears. I used to envision myself sliding over the edge when going around a corner at 15 mph; the rear kicking out and spinning me like a top, that sort of thing. What I ultimately concluded was that I not only doubted my own ability to handle the machine but didn't know what it was capable of, especially the tires. Heard so often about the tiny contact patches that I just couldn't see how the bike could stay upright if in a hard lean.

 

I tried parking lots but for me it didn't match real conditions. I took MSF courses, same thought. I even took a Keith Code course but still had the misgivings. It didn't stop me from riding but in retrospect it did keep me from getting more out of it. Then, years later, I lucked into a BMW motorcycle course and spent two days at Nordschleife, doing a total of 35 laps. It was just what I needed. The first time I rubbed my toes on the pavement I had a rush of panic, but noticed that I hadn't crashed. By the end of the course I was leaning and running at angles and speeds I thought impossible, for me anyway. After that, I felt I knew the bikes limits even if I hadn't reached them. Now, when I carry too much speed into a corner, I'm not afraid to lean, especially when the alternatives are less than appealing. I also inject a measure of fatalism into the equation: what are really the chances of a deer jumping in front of me? for example. Sh*t happens. Deal with it.

 

OK, not everyone can have that experience, sadly BMW no longer does that training, but there are tracks where you can experiment in controlled and safe conditions. I would strongly recommend looking into that. Technique is important but at the end of the day, your level of confidence is too.

 

Now, I laugh in the faces of Splugen and Furkapass!

[philbytx]

We have a few switchbacks in the TX Hill Country and I soon learned that to properly maintain positional control, especially uphill, you should be in the right gear, which is usually FIRST gear!

 

We have seen more than a couple of HD riders lay their bikes down in them !

[HenWin]

I learned how to ride switchbacks on an Edelweiss High Alpine Tour a few years ago.

 

But there are a couple of things I haven't seen in a very cursory review of the comments:

 

1. If you're going UP hill YOU NEED TO BE LOOKING UP, SO YOU CAN SEE WHO'S COMING DOWN so you can plan (big vehicles like trucks and buses cause problems and depending where they are, in relation to the corner itself, you might want to consider giving them the right of way--it might save your tush).

 

If you are going UP, and the turn is going to be to the left then stay to the right edge and just ride normally around the turn, staying to the outside.

 

The problem, if there is one, will be if the turn is to the right. That is why you need to know what is coming down. If it's a car, then get to the inside part of the lane--I'm assuming here that the road is 2 lanes wide--as close to the center line as you dare, WITHOUT GOING INTO ONCOMING TRAFFIC and make sure you have your head turned and you are looking where you want to go. As others have said, it is having your head turned that will get you around the corner. Once you can see through the corner then your path should be like any "normal, flat" corner that you'd take in a Beginning Rider's Course.

 

If the vehicle coming down is a large one-- particularly one that's going to need both lanes to make the turn, then it makes sense to STOP and let them go through the corner without you being in it. Let the vehicles behind you stop too. They might actually appreciate what you've done for them--kept them out of a place they don't want to be either.

 

When you enter the corner, you need to be in a low enough gear that you'll be able to just twist your wrist for power--I'd guess 2nd or maybe, 3rd. 1st is a bit on the low side, but there's no denying the power that can be found there...

 

Coming down is the same kind of thing. You need to be LOOKING DOWN, SO YOU CAN SEE WHO'S COMING UP. If it's a left turn, stay to the outside of the corner, but be sure you're LOOKING WHERE YOU WANT TO GO, which may mean a very serious head turn to the left. Once you can see fully through the corner then you can give the bike some additional throttle if you want.

 

In a right turn coming down, again be as close to the center line as you can, and once you can see a straight line out of the corner--having turned your head--then give it some throttle.

 

If a large vehicle COMING UP, while you're coming DOWN, reaches the entry first, STOP and let them have all the space they need. The one place you don't want to be is mid-corner with no place to go. Don't laugh. It happens and it's not pretty.

 

In the Alps there are other issues: notably that it's usually a single lane at the turn, not 2. OTOH, European drivers tend not to be in a super big hurry and understand the need to stop and let the "big guy" through without getting caught in the corner. Not only are European drivers usually better than us, they're much better in the mountains.

 

And yes, riding switchbacks can be very tiring. If you're doing the job well, and paying close attention, then you should be tired by the top or bottom of the hill.

 

Hope this helps. Good luck!

[Miriam]

I also inject a measure of fatalism into the equation: what are really the chances of a deer jumping in front of me? for example. Sh*t happens. Deal with it.

 

While you’re ‘dealing with it’ for instance by running wide, to avoid said dear or another danger, you’ll run right into me. That’s why guys like you scare me the most. You’re willing to take a risk with somebody else’s life.

 

The rule is that you must be able to come to a full stop on your own side of the road within sight distance at all times. That way at least we stand a chance when you’re out riding your motorcycle.

 

[TyTass]

I get the logic "rule of thumb" ... don't outrun your sightline ... but I'd recommend not using it as a razor, especially in the case of accusing SweetP of being a problem rider or thinking that by using it and going more slowly that all danger is averted.

 

First, SweetP specifically referred to deer "jumping in front of me [him]" and was not talking about a deer in the road ahead just out of view on a turn, one that he must avoid last minute because he's out-riding his sight line. You set up that scenario, he did not. He spoke of traveling fast at the track, but did not suggest racing around all corners at track speed.

 

Also, while not completely irrespective of the rider's speed, the proximity of bushes, shrubs, manmade barriers, etc. to the side of the road that can hide the approach of a deer ... as well as the speed of the deer ... itself are more significant factors for the dangers of a deer jumping in front of any rider.. Thus, scanning the sides of the road takes moments of our attention. How much attention depends on our speed and the situation, of course.

 

However, given the potential mass and closing speed of a truck, car or motorcycle coming the opposite way ... and the likelihood for it or them being in MY lane ...and compare that to the chance a deer jumps into my lane at that moment, and well ... I think I'll put the vast majority of my attention on the opposing traffic and road surface conditions anyday. Though I'm not 100% certain if this is what SweetP meant, I'm pretty sure I am agreeing with him by saying this. So, yeah ... I too can accept a little bit of fatalism about a deer in this case.

 

In fact, I submit that we all are either willing to accept a little more fatalism than we may think, or we are simply deluding ourselves as to the potential for danger. Not going faster than that you can stop for an object coming into your view of the road is a good rule of thumb. Clearly however, none of us take it to its full measure.

 

If the object coming into your view of the road is moving at 25-40 mph and in your lane, what then? The safest approach would of course be to not ride at all. The second safest move would be to instantaneously move in the opposite direction at his speed or greater. But since those two aren't possible on the road, you're going to have to make a decision based on your speed and the surounding environment.

 

If you speed is too high, you are probably not going to make it. If you are moving quickly, that decision and reaction must be very quick. However, if you are moving exceedingly slowly, you probably aren't safe either. Though you'll have a bit of time for more thought, you don't have time to get the bike reacting quickly.

[Paul Mihalka]

To continue the hijack from 180 turns : Deer: I have seen hundreds of them. I have seen deer crossing the Interstate, I slowed down and the car that was next to me before I slowed down hit it. But I have two deer kills with the bike. Each jumped out in front and I think I didn't have time to get off the throttle. With deer it is a kind of Russian Roulette. Or you accept it or you stop riding - and slip in the bath tub and break your neck...

OTOH two years ago in backroad Arkansas I saw a pickup coming FAST in what was for me a left turn. I kind of expected it when the pickup's tail swung out completely into my lane. Instant move I steered off the road without knowing what is there. Anything better than hitting the darn truck. I broke the front wheel on a rock but got back on the road with very flat front tire. Phhhhhhh...

[Miriam]

Hi Craig,

 

I appreciate your input, but I didn’t accuse SweetP of anything other than his willingness to inject a measure of fatalism in his riding and he wasn’t specifically referring to deer because he said for example. Of course I don’t know SweetP, he may be a very responsible rider, but saying what he said makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end.

 

You’re probably right that we none of us stay within our abilities all the time, that all of us are willing to cut some corners so to speak, but that sounds a lot different form purposely injecting a measure of fatalism into your riding style. Maybe he didn’t mean for it to sound that way, but it could also be that his newfound confidence going through the corners makes him take more of a risk then he realizes, at least that’s how it sounds to me.

 

I know the exhilaration of riding a bike skillfully, feeling as though its completely under your control, but if in that process your attitude changes to “sh*t happens, deal with it” then it may be a case of over estimating your skill level and trusting the fact that more often than not, things don’t go wrong because you’re lucky or/and because the other person deals with it for you.

 

[Marty Hill]

Hi Miriam.