Time for a full blown screaming-fit oil thread, don't you think?

[markgoodrich]

Mark

Didn't you see my ROFL?

 

I do understand and actually agree with you!

I use 6k intervals and, likes yourself, am happy to save myself a few shekels where appropriate and the planet wherever I can. The appropriateness of it all is distilled and gleaned from a myriad of sources and decisions made after any additional and appropriate research on my part coupled with the necessary amoutn of introspection!

 

So, when it comes to my comments please don't take me so bloody seriously mate or I'll ride up there and put my carbon footprint on your arse

 

No worries, Phil, I can assure you with complete confidence that absolutely no one takes your comments seriously. No one. Not anyone. I asked my dachshund his opinion of your comments and he farted.

[philbytx]

Hmm!

Prolly surge...try Autolite AP3923's

[AviP]

In the auto world, we waste too much time and money on 3000 miles oil changes. And of course there's disposal and environmental concerns. I now change my oil every 7500 miles. That's a 60% reduction in my oil consumption.

 

In the motorcycle world, I'm still at 6K but they do rev higher so I'll stay with it.

[vizhip]

Very disappointed in the lack of screaming on this oil thread.

 

Hey... was screaming... you just couldn't hear me under all this water... )))

 

Regards -

-Bob

[basilr]

I wanted to add to this thread just so you all knew I read it.

 

I have already bought a BMW oil filter and will be using it for my winter layup, but I have a couple (maybe more) questions about the oil change itself.

 

1. How important is it to torque the oil filter after it is put on? I don't have the BMW oil filter wrench yet and am considering using a strap wrench to get the old one off and the new one on. Just not sure if that is a good idea or not.

 

My BMW dealer is either 205kms away or 450kms away depending on which one I go to so I would like to do the changes for both my R1200RT and my wife's F800ST.

 

I understand the BMW wrench is about $60 before tax, so if I can get the oil change done without it, I will.

 

I will be using 20W-50 oil, probably a brand name from Canadian Tire (Pennzoil $4.79) because from what I have read, there is no real difference between it and the $10.25 motorcycle oil. Any opinions on this?

 

Also, regarding torque, how important is it to torque the drain plug?

 

I'm not a mechanic and don't do a lot of wrenching, but want to do what I can do, well.

 

Thanks for any tips.

 

Regards, Basil

[T__]

Basil, there IS a difference between MOST motorcycle oil & the run-of-the-mill automotive oils (at least additive wise).. In some cases not much & in others enough to put a flag up.. For that same $4.80 you can usually buy a much better oil that is at least has most of the quantity/quality additives that quality motorcycle oil’s have.. There is no problem using a non motorcycle oil but you should to do a little research to make sure what you are using is proper for your motorcycle.. Some of those motorcycle oil additives are very desirable for long term winter motorcycle storage..

I won’t debate this oil thing on the internet.. If you want to E-Mail or PM me I will discuss it with you.. If you just want to use a standard automotive oil then you won’t care about my input anyway..

 

Now on torquing the filter or drain plug.. That is a good question.. In most cases a person that does a lot of motorcycle mechanical things has a good feel for the tightness of both the drain plug & the filter..

 

Your statement that “I'm not a mechanic and don't do a lot of wrenching, but want to do what I can do, well” tells me you probably should torque everything so you tighten them enough & don’t strip them.. You don’t have enough background for proper feel of the parts as you tighten them.. You should also replace the soft crush washer on the drain plug if possible as those are prone to leakage if re-used (they can usually be re-used at least once but that is not the correct thing to do)..

 

On the filter wrench? You CAN get by without one if needed.. You have a couple of options,, first is to take your oil filter to the local discount auto parts store & find a filter wrench that is a close fit (probably won’t find an exact fit).. Then modify it to work with a hack saw & file (a slightly small filter wrench can have slits cut in it with a hack saw to allow it to expand when pushed over the filter).. Or find a strap wrench that will fit in the engine filter cavity (that is what I personally use).. The one I use doesn’t have a handle on it but instead uses a ratchet & extension in the SHORT tab sticking out the side of the filter wrench (it works pretty darn nice).. You will have problems using a strap wrench with a long handle on the 1200 hexhead.. Problem with using a homemade filter wrench is you might not get a torque wrench on the filter wrench in the center of the filter.. So if you want to torque the filter on then you will probably need a proper BMW filter wrench.. (I don’t even know what the proper filter torque is so if you can’t find that it won’t even matter)..

 

 

Twisty

 

[Polo]

Mark

Didn't you see my ROFL?

 

I do understand and actually agree with you!

I use 6k intervals and, likes yourself, am happy to save myself a few shekels where appropriate and the planet wherever I can. The appropriateness of it all is distilled and gleaned from a myriad of sources and decisions made after any additional and appropriate research on my part coupled with the necessary amoutn of introspection!

 

So, when it comes to my comments please don't take me so bloody seriously mate or I'll ride up there and put my carbon footprint on your arse

 

Before you do that, would you PM me? I'd like to watch.

[JayW]

I understand the BMW wrench is about $60 before tax...

 

You can get them for about a third of that from the aftermarket, and they work great.

 

Jay

[markgoodrich]

UPDATE: another 5,000 miles since the first report. Added less than a quart of oil over that distance.

 

So: 10,000 miles, filter change halfway, less than three quarts of oil added (at filter change took almost a quart). Spent the money for a second, and last, analysis with Blackstone.

 

Oil was still Royal Purple 20W50, a full synthetic. TBN (see original post) showed the oil still within specs. Insolubles, i.e. gook, was so low Blackstone suggested I might not bother changing filters in between the 10k mile change interval. Assuming I go to a 10k interval.

 

Not only was the oil still within spec, still with plenty of additives, but the engine wear indicators were all well within norms.

 

I have switched, this time, to Castrol GTX 20W50, couldn't find a Purolator PL10241 so installed a Bosch cross-indexed filter, made by Purolator (I don't think it's identical to the PL10241 in every respect). Blackstone said I shouldn't notice any difference in engine wear with the two oil types.

 

I've several conclusions from this exercise, not least of which is that if you're changing your oil at intervals less than recommended by your owner's manual, you might as well be throwing the money in the street.

 

I also conclude, recognizing the limitations of my very small test series, that one can safely (without damaging the engine) go substantially beyond the recommended change intervals. Whether one chooses to do so is a matter of personal choice.

 

Why did I use Royal Purple? I got a deal on it, and have had great success in another, electric motor application, compared to standard oils. Why did I switch to Castrol GTX? On sale at Pep Boys. What will I use next time? Who knows, I don't have an emotional attachment to a brand; any oil which meets the owner's manual minimum API specification is, in my relatively informed opinion, just exactly fine.

 

Motorcycle-only oil, in my opinion, is the only oil I will NOT use. It meets only an obsolete standard, has high levels of ZDDP, which will, over time, damage or destroy a catalytic converter. My bike has 40,000 miles on the clock, and I don't have any plan to sell it; I will use the oil recommended by the manual, and that also won't damage my emissions system. I hate to think what a catalytic converter might cost.

 

There was a lot of great information generated in this old thread regarding what is and isn't acceptable for use in our bikes. But the bottom line on "which oil" is RTFM.

 

Why'd I go through all this brain damage? I love data. I hate marketing.

[effexer1]

I have drawn the same conclusions. I have used Mobil 1, and now use Castrol GTX 20W50 also. The lube engineer at work says that I am crazy, but, I am betting that regardless of what good or high quality oil I use, my bike engine will outlast the rest of the bike.

 

[E30TECH]

There is no reason to change the oil before an analysis indicates that it is necessary, and there is no reason to use BMW-brand filter if you are using an adequate replacement. Sorry for the lack of an argument.

 

I think a lot of people use the recommended change interval simply because they don't want to bother with a test, and in fact the test costs about as much as an oil change anyway so there's not much of a financial advantage in doing it. Easier to just change the oil and be done with it.

 

 

 

 

[SWB]

I'd agree on all points, i.e. the Mobil 1 I'm throwing away @ 6K miles isn't "worn out". I've thought about going 2x or 4x as long on all the family vehicles. (In fact, I've paid to put Mobil1 1 in my daughter's truck because I KNOW that her service schedule is ..ah.. somewhat more lethargic than the service bulletins direct. )

 

The single thing that gives me pause is the possibility of an intake leak at some point. Unfiltered air in an engine can act like sandpaper internally (don't ask me why I know this). Obviously, a failed or dirty air cleaner would do the same.

 

An oil change, even at today's high oil prices, is cheap insurance against future engine problems.

 

My 2 cents.

 

- Scott

[MrMCar]

Mark,

 

Interesting hornet's nest you've stirred up.

 

Let me properly introduce myself. I am a Factory Trained BMW (automobile) Master Technician. I have owned an independent BMW specialty shop for over 20 years now. Most of our emphasis is on the "M" model series cars. We do a very large amount of engine work, track engines for class winning cars and also a heavy emphasis on diagnostics. Naturally that goes to say I am a staunch proponent of frequent oil changes. Yes I also ride a K1100LT and a R1150RT.

 

This is an oft discussed topic on many a forum and magazine. This is my first such foray into this "taboo" area. Many points have been thrown out there. Some good, some bad and some is just bad "internet" information. I’d like to share with you some thoughts from a person who is in the business. You may or may not agree. That’s just fine, it won’t change my mind.

 

§ Firstly there is a plethora of data from the SAE (yes you can purchase it online) that supports that synthetic oil out-performs organic oil in every test, save one. Cost.

§ Having been a “Crew Chief” on a USAF fighter jet we would do oil sampling after every flight, for each engine. This enables the testers to evaluate the state of internals. Premature wear, oil protection level etc. One important fact is missing though. Whilst the test lab had a very large data base on the GE J79-17 engine from which to be able to draw accurate conclusions. That was the ONLY jet engine on our base. Having a very focused scope of view brings about a more accurate result, from such a test. Just how much data does Blackstone Labs, or any other have on the myriad of BMW motorcycle engines? Car engines etc…. Whilst gasoline internal combustion are all very much the same, there are subtle differences within the BMW engines that might cause concern. Do they really know what (you’re a data seeker) levels are acceptable for your particular engine? How many do they have in their data base? An example might be a level of xxxx on aluminum, and their test would show no unusual wear. Maybe this would be wrong. Giving you a false sense of security. The more they have a “track record” for, the more accurate your test results. I am not in disagreement with such results, but just how accurate is the test with respect to any given one engine and it’s nuances?

§ As I’ve stated before, we do a large amount of minor & major engine work. We see first hand the direct correlation between frequent and extended oil change intervals. There is no argument that frequent oil changes do support a healthier engine. Also noteworthy is shorter intervals support a cleaner engine. Now I’m not just talking about the absence of the ugly brown patina that forms on the non moving parts. But not mentioned is just how important it is to keep the oil control rings of the pistons clean & free from even the most minor amount of “coking” sludge. One of the first things to break down in just about every oil is the additive package. This is what most people don’t know. Clogged oil control rings do not show up in testing. In fact since their ability to float is compromised, the wear is actually less. Owing to reduced tension of said ring against the cylinder bore. This will show up as oil deposits on the spark plugs. By that time, it’s too late.

§ On the flip side, there is also a tremendous amount of data showing some good things about extended oil change intervals. Of greatest concern to manufacturers and BMW specifically is ZDDP and other similar formulations in suspension within the oil. No matter how good a set of piston rings you have, there is always some microscopic amounts of oil that gets past the piston rings on every down stroke of the piston. Even more so when the rings are cold and/or (see bullet above) coked up. This over time leaves deposits on the catalytic converter matrix. Over time, this leads to the destruction of the cat. Not in the physical sense, but rather the accumulation of deposits choke off the ability of the precious metal coatings (platinum, palladium & rhodium) and restrict it’s ability to perform it’s catalyst change. As the mixture constantly cycles through “lambda” AKA: closed loop operation the cat gets slightly saturated & burned off in a constant cycle. The formation of deposits heavily restricts this operation. Manufacturers are being called upon to now extend the (in autos anyway-soon bikes too!) warranty replacement interval of the cats of upwards of 140,000 miles. Modern oils are easily five fold better now then they were just a decade ago. The manufacturers are working closely with the oil manufacturers to find & introduce additives that enable good long-term protection (15,000 miles is the target for most German cars) against the breakdown & detergent ability of such a long change interval. Many boutique oils (Amsoil ((of which is what we use here)) Redline etc.) have higher levels of “additive package” in their composition. Hence the increased cost. Some of these oils can actually bring about a “check engine” light when the DME (BMW’s acronym for engine computer) sees that the catalytic converter is no longer functioning well. This is accomplished with pre & post cat. Converter oxygen sensors. Against stored data (tables) in the engine computer. BMW is quietly starting to ask for oil samples with some warranty catalytic converter claims. I suspect that in the future after they build up a data base there might…..be some denial of claim? More frequent oil changes (fresh oil & high levels of additive package) bring about a higher than average cat. Converter failure. This should prove quite interesting for us in the repair & service business going forward. Balancing wear against good protection & engine (not cat. Converter) reliability for our customers. Lastly this point is perhaps in direct conflict with the bullet point above, with respect to the possibility of coked up oil control rings. Possibly brought about from the extended service interval.

 

Regardless I will continue to do as I have done in the past. Having seen with my own eyes and hands inside engines the merits of more frequent oil changes. For those of you that might ask, for the first time ever, the oil change intervals on my personal cars is 5K and every 3K for my Bimmer bikes.

Also not mentioned is that more frequent oil changes get you under the bike and naturally, your eyes will most likely take a stroll around some of the other areas that one does not normally see. This just might tip you off to a problem that previously was unknown. Perhaps staving off a breakdown because you caught it, before it became a problem. Fix the bike on your time, not when it surprises you.

 

Respectfully,

Don Fields

MrMCar Inc.

 

[markgoodrich]

Don, I agree with all your data points, and in fact have made many of the same points myself (without benefit of your experience and knowledge, but with a certain facility with google).

 

The oil tested by Blackstone in both tests showed still-adequate additive levels, one of the important issues you addressed. I do not know if the Castrol I've switched to will do the same over an extended interval.

 

I wasn't quite clear on your comments regarding catalytic converters. It's my understanding oil companies have drastically reduced or even eliminated ZDDP in their formulations specifically because it caused the cat damage you mentioned. In other words, the latest API standard addresses the catalytic converter problem at the current state-of-the-art level. High ZDDP levels are the reason I would never use "motorcycle" oil in my bike.

 

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

[MrMCar]

Mark,

 

Guess I wasn’t too clear, or rather lacked further information about boutique oils. Many so-called “racing” oils are becoming available to the market. Many of these have higher than the currently approved levels of ZDDP. Thus taking a step backwards if you will.

 

Bringing to the table an extra measure of wear protection with the (older) level of anti wear additives. These are great oils for wear protection. Especially for those who do a lot of off road (GS 11xx come to mind) use and track use and all of the high revving protection this additive brings about. The problem with this is that it will bring about a sooner than normal failure of the catalyst. BMW owners (bikes & cars) are very in tune with their machines and enjoy a higher than average owner repair VS: dealer service. Many owners might seek out oils that have higher than currently approved ZDDP in their formulation.

 

With the reduction of ZDDP is why I like frequent oil changes. Personally, I believe there will come a day when an oil sample might bring about a denial for a warranty claim on a catalyst. I hope I’m wrong. Many of us independents foresee that oils with a boost in the additive package just might someday be labeled, “For off road use only.”

 

I digress…

 

 

Don Fields

MrMCar Inc.

 

K1100LT

R1150RT

[Polo]

Wouldn't most racing and off road applications not have a cat-converter? Cat-converters are anti-polution devices after all, and racing and off road are typically outside of these regulations.

 

So, yes a racing oil will perhaps provide great engine protection, but is not necessarily the best choice for us 2hr/week spirited riders.

 

Exaggeration comes with a price, just be sure you want to pay it.

[smiller]

With respect to ZDDP content, it is BMW and other manufacturers who have specified that motorcycle-specific oils (or only SG/SH oils, etc.) be used. These oils are usually in the 1200-1600 ppm range for ZDDP, much higher than the current SAE/ILSAC standards for automobiles (around 800 ppm.) And this is true even for current models as BMW recommends JASO MA-spec oil in the newer K-bikes which would mean a minimum of 1200 ppm ZDDP. I'm not sure how BMW could recommend oils with a higher ZDDP content and then ding a consumer for converter damage.

[markgoodrich]

Different BMW bikes have different recommendations, Seth. My RT manual calls for API spec "SF or better." That includes of course SG and SH oils, the former being "motorcycle" oil, obsolete since 1996 for passenger cars, because it has much higher ZDDP levels (as repeatedly stated, bad for the cat). My bike has a cat.

 

The warranty on my emissions equipment was 18,700 miles (30,000km). Given that, it's sensible for BMW's engineers to have specified SF at the "bottom" end, or the JASO-MA for your bike; ZDDP is the best possible anti-wear additive, and it almost certainly won't damage the catalytic converter enough to warrant replacement within 30,000 km. The corporation is not liable for emissions damage due to specification of the best possible anti-wear package in the oil.

[smiller]

The warranty on my emissions equipment was 18,700 miles (30,000km). Given that, it's sensible for BMW's engineers to have specified SF at the "bottom" end, or the JASO-MA for your bike; ZDDP is the best possible anti-wear additive, and it almost certainly won't damage the catalytic converter enough to warrant replacement within 30,000 km. The corporation is not liable for emissions damage due to specification of the best possible anti-wear package in the oil.

But that raises an interesting question. It's true that BMW isn't formally liable for cat performance beyond 30k km, but if there's no harm in using the lower ZDDP-formulations they why not specify them? BMW is actively trying to be green in any number of ways these days, why would they accept needless cat damage by allowing the use of high-ZDDP oils? And of course no one really knows how much ZDDP is required, other than high-performance engines (or more specifically high-performance valvetrains) probably need more of it. Porsche says so explicitly but I'm not aware of any other manufacturers who address the issue head-on. But then again I'm not aware of any data that indicates how much higher levels of ZDDP shorten the life of the converter either.

 

I'm not trying to argue because I don't have any more definitive answers than anyone else (which is to say none) but I'm intrigued by the apparent contradictions in the recommendations. In BMW's case it may not be anything more than one department not talking to another, who knows. But from all I've been able to read one can state at the very least that ZDDP levels of 800 ppm do not have a long track record in high-performance engines and thus the wear performance is as yet unknown. Given this my personal preference is to use an oil with a moderate level of ZDDP (JASO MA, HD diesel oils, Mobil 1 silver cap, etc.) It may be unknown whether this matters or not in terms of engine wear but OTOH it's also completely unknown as to whether it will materially shorten converter life, so my toss at the dart board would be to worry about the engine first and converter second. That seems to be how BMW is looking at it as well, but who can tell what those guys really think.

[JayW]

Mark,

 

Interesting hornet's nest you've stirred up....

 

Respectfully,

Don Fields

MrMCar Inc.

 

Don, I really appreciate your thoughtful and well-reasoned comments on this sticky yet slippery subject. Welcome to the site, and I hope you post often.

 

Jay

[4wheeldog]

I re-read your first post in light of your clarification.

What did not make sense to me was the correlation of frequent oil changes with cat failures. I understand how oil with an excessive ZDDP level would jeopardize cat life, but frequency of changes should not impact the outcome.

ZDDP does not get "Used up" in normal use, and levels should be nearly the same in new oil and the same oil when it is drained. The only way it would be consumed is by combining with the moving metal parts of the engine, and what gets past the rings, which would be in the same proportion as the oil used. TBN gets used up as acid is nuetralized, but ZDDP should stay relatively constant, so oil consumption would be the factor, along with the original level of the additive.

Please feel free to correct my reasoning if it is faulty.

[MrMCar]

No your reasoning isn’t faulty. One could practically do a PhD thesis on this subject area. A friend of mine who is an engineer at a car and motorcycle company tells me that when fresh oil is put into an engine, the additive package levels are naturally very fresh and high. As the oil wears down over time, the non-oil package is depleted.

 

Now here’s the twist, Joe Smith who wants to be very pro active and change out his oil on a very pro-active regimen changes his oil every 5K or so. Mind you, I’m talking cars for the moment, but they’re looking at the bike stuff too. Seems as if when the additive levels are high (3 times more than normal in this instance) because he changed the oil 3 times in 15K rather than the ONE time 15K or so most German manufacturers recommend. With every down stroke of the piston a VERY small amount of oil gets into the combustion chamber. Now that the ZDDP and other additives have been “fresh” and near peak levels for the 15K period, this adds up over 100 plus thousand miles.

 

Eight years later Joe Smith fails a state inspection “smog” because his catalytic converter efficiency is below threshold levels. Now said manufacturer has to pay for the cat & labor. This is why they are looking at this with interest and working with the oil companies for protection levels that meet the needs of the engine AND protect their bottom line with emission repairs way down the line.

 

I too am following the developments of this delicate balance between engine protection VS: catalytic converter failure. As a shop owner, I strive to offer my customers the best protection that we can give. Weighed against future emissions failures. I do believe there will soon be a breakthrough either in cat. converter makeup/construction and/or a better formulation of oil that won’t destroy catalysts.

 

Don Fields

MrMCar

K 1100 LT

R 1150 RT

 

[markgoodrich]

Don, excellent points and explanation again, but aren't the current oils, meeting the current API standards, just that: better formulations which don't destroy catalysts (or at least doesn't destroy catalysts over the extensive auto warranty periods)?

 

My local dealer quotes $1589.18 for a combination exhaust manifold/cat converter, plus a bunch of ancillary parts which probably add several hundred dollars to that figure. A lot of money to eventually have to spend because oil with a damaging formulation was used.

 

Of course, one could always switch to an aftermarket exhaust, and avoid the catalytic converter issue altogether. Aside from the even higher monetary cost of the switch, there's the societal/environmental cost of drastically increased emissions (pollution).

 

[smiller]

My local dealer quotes $1589.18 for a combination exhaust manifold/cat converter, plus a bunch of ancillary parts which probably add several hundred dollars to that figure. A lot of money to eventually have to spend because oil with a damaging formulation was used.

 

Aside from the even higher monetary cost of the switch, there's the societal/environmental cost of drastically increased emissions (pollution).

Well that's really the only issue. Contamination of the converter will reduce it's effectiveness in terms of emissions reduction but it won't have any negative performance effect.

[AZRTRDR]

Has anyone seen what the difference is between cat. vs non-cat. pollutants?

Same engine sampled pre-cat. exhaust vs post cat. readings.

What kind of mileage are we talking before these affects can be measured, stuck rings or ineffective cat.?

Which will cause the most pollutants, stuck rings or bad cat.?

Which will cause the most loss in performance ?

Which is the least costly to fix ?

Change often, save the rings?

Less often, use up the additives and save the cat.?

I use Amsoil every 6k.. Am I doing both or neither?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[markgoodrich]

Tim, you know how, when you're stuck behind a 1971 Ford Pickup, in traffic, with the fresh air button pushed on your car's AC, and MAN does that thing stink? That's almost exactly what it's like to follow someone on an RT without the cat. My nose has not been federally calibrated lately, but the difference surely is significant.

[MrMCar]

Tim,

 

I’ll try to answer your question. For now motorcycle emission testing at the O.E. level is very low on motorcycles. Tantamount to a car produced & sold during the late 80’s to early 90’s. That is to say, that the bikes are sent to the EPA for testing for certification prior to type approval for sale here is the USA. The current levels of allowable emissions are rather high, when compared with an equal model year automobile. What most people don’t know is that there is a whole lot more to EPA certification that just the 4 gasses HC, CO, Co2 and NOx that get tested at your annual or semi annual smog check. There are some 27 (I think?) things that are tested before certification is given type approval. That’s the number you can see on the emissions compliance number you can see on the black sticker under your seat. On my R1150RT it’s: 2BMXC0040 R21. The EPA is putting things in place for much more stringent emission compliance & testing with respect to future models.

 

For purposes of demonstration, I have admittedly chosen a worst case (still very real mind you) scenario. We in the auto business are starting to see cat. failures directly attributable to oil additives, engine cleaning solutions & oils those have higher than specified ZDDP levels. Mind you, I’m not trying to be alarmist, but what about those guys/gals that have brand new 09 models. Will they have problems 5, 6 years, or so from now? If the cat fails, was it from “extended service” and the coked up oil control rings OR brought about from just good ol’ fashioned pro-active oil changes? Just for the record, this does NOT happen overnight. Rather very slowly over time.

 

“Inquiring minds want to know” you say. You betcha’ So do I!! This is why we inside the industry and service business are very interested in the developments, whatever they are and the short/long term outcomes. There will be no doubt in the future pre & post cat oxygen sensors linked into the DME. Most likely BMW will be the first. They have led the way with electronic emission controls for a LONG time. With the advent of 2 sensors, the DME can watch the catalytic converter and monitor it’s efficiency. It logs a running table called O2 sensor aging.

 

As I’ve stated at the start of this, I’m NOT changing my mind. I continue to use, offer & change with what I consider the best oil, whilst meeting oil requirement specifications called for by BMW. Frequently also, I might add.

 

School is out. I’m spent.

 

Don Fields

MrMCar

K 1100 LT

R 1150 RT