Time for a full blown screaming-fit oil thread, don't you think?

[markgoodrich]

Been too quiet around here, let's get the blood pressures up with a new oil thread.

 

I sent a sample off to Blackstone labs, full synthetic oil, 5,000 miles since last change, 35,000 miles on the bike. Changed the filter out (and yes, it was NOT a BMW filter ), but not the oil. Took most of a quart to get the filter full, and top off, so I've got about 25% fresh oil and a fresh filter in the motor.

 

The wear results showed absolutely normal wear across the board, from AL to ZN. Nothing out of the ordinary.

 

The analysis of the oil itself, via something called a TBN (Total Base Analysis: see: http://tinyurl.com/knzg8q) showed it still has plenty of life left (for those who care, TBN was 5.6 in my sample).

 

Now, for the screaming-fit part:

 

1. Blackstone sees oil, and nothing but, all day, every day. They're an indpendent outfit. They could care less what their customers use. What do THEY use, based on their vast knowledge and experience? Petroleum oil, not synthetic.

 

2. Since my oil is still doing its job, I intend to follow the advice I got directly from the manufacturer (Royal Purple..hey, I got a deal) and run it another 5,000 miles. Then I'll have it tested again. When I switch over to Castrol GTX On Sale, five quarts for about the cost of 1.5 quarts of Royal Purple at Pep Boys.

 

3. I will keep using the Purolator filters I've used ever since I bought the bike; I'm clearly not experiencing any undue wear. Note that my warranty has expired, so that particlar potential problem is moot.

 

I really love data. Facts. Numbers in columns. I love my lab report.

 

So, plenty of questions, some of which are:

 

Why in the world, given the wear numbers and the oil condition, would I change the oil at the recommended 6K miles?

 

Why in the world would anyone change their oil at less-than-recommended 6K mile intervals. I mean, why in the data-driven world of lab reports rather than the world of marketing department suggestions? Cheap insurance? True, but that begs the question.

 

Assuming my engine is a normal sample, why, other than the possible warranty-void issue, pay for filters with the letters B M W on them rather than, oh, the Puolator filter that appears to work perfectly?

 

Hold your comments for a moment, please, while I don my flame retardant suit.

[g_frey]

All wonderful questions, I can here the villagers coming with torches now.

[smiller]

There is no reason to change the oil before an analysis indicates that it is necessary, and there is no reason to use BMW-brand filter if you are using an adequate replacement. Sorry for the lack of an argument.

 

I think a lot of people use the recommended change interval simply because they don't want to bother with a test, and in fact the test costs about as much as an oil change anyway so there's not much of a financial advantage in doing it. Easier to just change the oil and be done with it.

 

 

[Paul Mihalka]

'86 K75 with 200K miles, '91 K75RT with 130K, '94 K1100LT with 80K, '99 R1100RT with 175K, '02 R1150R with 70K, current '05 R1200GS with 84K miles. All on Purolator filters. Mostly on Castrol GTX - and I work at a BMW dealer. Oil/filter changed at +/- 6.000 miles. Never any engine problems. No flaming from me.

[Tapatio]

[T__]

Mark,

Why in the world, given the wear numbers and the oil condition, would I change the oil at the recommended 6K miles? -----

 

Because it is usually cheaper to do an oil change more often than get an oil test..

 

Why in the world would anyone change their oil at less-than-recommended 6K mile intervals. I mean, why in the data-driven world of lab reports rather than the world of marketing department suggestions? Cheap insurance? True, but that begs the question. ------

 

Because they want to.. Or in some cases they have only gone 4,000 miles & it has been over a year.. Not everybody rides in the same temperatures & same number of cold starts.. I have an old beater bike I ride in very cold nasty weather & it usually doesn’t go far enough to heat the oil enough to burn out moisture.. It has a manual drain crankcase breather moisture trap & that thing is usually completely full after a few days of sub 20°f riding.. The oil usually looks like grease after a few thousand miles..

 

Assuming my engine is a normal sample, why, other than the possible warranty-void issue, pay for filters with the letters B M W on them rather than, oh, the Puolator filter that appears to work perfectly?-----

 

Probably no real reason.. In my case I’m still under warranty so still use the BMW filter.. As to the Purolator filter? No one in my area carries the Purolator filter that will fit my BMW.. If I knew for sure the by-pass valve pop off pressure was the same as BMW spec filter & the by-pass was on the correct end of the filter I guess I wouldn’t have a problem using a non BMW filter..

 

If you take the time effort & money to keep up on oil testing good for you.. You can very easily extend your oil change intervals to what the testing dictates..

 

I usually extend my oil changes a little but try to do my valve & TBI maintenance close to schedule.. As long as my bike is in my shop on my bike lift I might as well do the oil change then also.. I have a lot of bikes so I usually have to move one off the lift table to put another on so try to do all my maintenance at one time..

 

 

TEHO

 

Twisty

 

[Huzband]

 

Why in the world would anyone change their oil at less-than-recommended 6K mile intervals.

 

Because most, if not all, of us grew up in the era when changing your oil every 3K miles was not only driven down our throats, but was regular practice by our Dads. Even today, the oil change chains still push that same montra. Good business from the un-educated I suppose.

 

Dino or syn, I'm for wearin' the stuff out myself. And at 21K, I'm still burnin' dino.

[Twisties]

All these test results posted here on BMWST over the years and I begin to wonder if anyone has ever gotten a report that says to change the oil, and at what miles of oil use that happened. Really.

 

How reliable are these testing services in terms of testing for the right things?

 

I wonder because my bike seems to get noticeably rougher riding towards the end of the oil change interval (oci), then smooths out on fresh oil. I don't think it's valves or TBS because I haven't always had to adjust them. Moreover, the used oil is always black and opaque, while the new oil is generally light brown and clear.

 

Just wondering.

[Limecreek]

What a freaking trouble maker...can we restrict this guy to one of the more obscure, less politically charged sections like Riders Discuss Other Topics???

 

Forget that suggestion, let's just ban him, and yes ban him now!

 

 

[smiller]

I wonder because my bike seems to get noticeably rougher riding towards the end of the oil change interval (oci), then smooths out on fresh oil.

That is either completely psychological, or is a result of something other than the age of your oil. Or at least you had better hope so...

 

With regard to color, motor oil is designed to hold contaminants in suspension and a dark color is completely normal, and no indication in itself of a need for a change.

[markgoodrich]

What a freaking trouble maker...can we restrict this guy to one of the more obscure, less politically charged sections like Riders Discuss Other Topics???

 

Forget that suggestion, let's just ban him, and yes ban him now!

 

 

THIS from the guy who keeps records of his tire wear in a binder, using a micrometer to measure tread depth? THIS from a guy has maintenance records on bikes he sold years ago? Clearly, Limecreek's name should be changed to Pitchforker.

[markgoodrich]

There is no reason to change the oil before an analysis indicates that it is necessary, and there is no reason to use BMW-brand filter if you are using an adequate replacement. Sorry for the lack of an argument.

 

I think a lot of people use the recommended change interval simply because they don't want to bother with a test, and in fact the test costs about as much as an oil change anyway so there's not much of a financial advantage in doing it. Easier to just change the oil and be done with it.

 

 

I certainly agree that regular testing of our bikes is silly, and I have no intention of doing more than one more, to establish what I expect, that the trend is...nothing, i.e. all is well with my engine. And, of course, I have DATA.

 

I'm surprised you can't find the Purolator filter; have you ever tried Amazon?

 

I have had minor misgivings about bypass valve specifications, too, but the lab report giving my engine a clean bill convinces me it's not an issue.

[vizhip]

I think the life of oil in an engine is like the life of tires...

 

It depends on how you ride the bike... where you ride it... and the quality of the oil...

 

It isn't going to be the same for any two people and may not necessarily be the same for you for each change of oil... after all... you may ride in hotter weather one time... and colder the next...

 

So... picking a safe number for changing the oil before it breaks down in either case helps you remember to change it on time...

 

Regards -

-Bob

[T__]

Clip~

 

I have had minor misgivings about bypass valve specifications, too, but the lab report giving my engine a clean bill convinces me it's not an issue.

 

Mark, the by-pass valve doesn’t mean squat UNTIL,, you do a very cold-oil high RPM drive away & blow a hole in your filter element due to thick oil viscosity high pressure & lack of proper by-pass,, or bulge a filter can due to (cold oil) high pressure.. Or the by-pass valve is on the wrong end so extremely high oil pressure at by-pass not only opens the by-pass valve but then washes the accumulated crud from the filter element right through the open by-pass valve..

 

I just wonder if an automotive type oil filter is designed for a high RPM engine that uses 20W50 engine oil in cold weather? Maybe it is,, I sure don’t know..

 

Hey, as long as YOU are happy with what your using & doing that is all that matters..

 

Twisty

 

[tallman]

Because when, and if, I sell my bike, the new owner would much rather buy one w/documented regular service intervals, or sooner, than one which has been publicly identified as a bike which wasn't.

Because I've seen bikes that went too long and don't want to deal w/that.

Because I can.

Because it keeps some people awake at night.

And mostly because of the cathartic feeling I get whenout with the old and in with the new is completed.

[JayW]

...why, other than the possible warranty-void issue, pay for filters with the letters B M W on them rather than, oh, the Puolator filter that appears to work perfectly?

 

OK, I'll argue a bit:

 

Upon what data-driven lab report do you base your premise that, "oh, the Purolator filter" is as good as the one BMW sells? Who is THEY at Blackstone and how is it that THEY know what is in the engines of all the vehicles owned by the experts who work there?

 

Jay

[Quinn]

In my little pea-brain I figure that oil is like a lot of other things in life; the graph runs downhill with time and mileage. It's not a magic switch that says its fine one day and then, click! not fine the next. Nope, oil just deteriorates with use and it becomes a matter of where on the graph do you want to change it. If new oil is better for the engine than 12k old oil, then is it also better than 6k old oil? How about 4k? I've just picked a point where I notice a reduction in performance or think I've had to top off the oil enough and change it. Maybe my imagination, but it always seems to run better after the oil change and I get better mileage for a tank or two.

 

Has anyone experienced an oil related failure from pushing the change interval?

 

 

[Calvin (no socks)]

Have seen problems in poorly maintained cars. Have seen heavy deposits from a missed oil change, then the customer gets religous about changing oil.. those deposits harden and eventually fall to the oil pick-up screen.. clogging it years after the initial missed maintenence(s)... then I go in and scrape and clean and flush and cross fingers that there is not a relapse. I open engines every day, I can tell by a visual inspection if maintenece was a priority or an inconvinence..... An oil change is cheap insurance. Some will never learn...

[jjg3]

All these test results posted here on BMWST over the years and I begin to wonder if anyone has ever gotten a report that says to change the oil, and at what miles of oil use that happened. Really.

 

How reliable are these testing services in terms of testing for the right things?

 

My experience with oil analysis comes from aviation. The analysis is of the oil, but it's to track component wear to replace prior to failure (on-condition rather than time change or use to failure), not primarily to extend oil use. In automotive use we generally go to failure. That is, we do oil changes and go merrily along until something starts making really bad sounds/vibrations/leaks/stops doing what it's suppose to do. Then we do repairs or replacement. Oil analysis can provide an idea of how the parts are doing. In my experience with aviation oil labs the lab could tell us not only of an impending component failure, but a good estimate of when it would fail and exactly what individual part in the component was failing.

 

I've had a Blackstone analysis tell me there was an issue with the R11RT transmission (at around 35k miles), probably a bearing. At initial tear-down, it wasn't apparent, but on further detailed disassembly, the analysis was correct. The infamous input shaft bearing was failing. I didn't do the work, Anton L did and he didn't see the failure when the case was first cracked open. It wasn't until he'd taken the transmission apart that the bearing failure became apparent. So the price of an analysis cost me the price of a transmission overhaul, if you want to look at it like that. I'd rather think it saved me from breaking down on the road somewhere.

 

I started having Blackstone do analysis on my Triumph America as I was doing some pretty good distance riding on it and didn't want to do oil changes in the middle of a trip. At 3-4k the lab said the oil (parts) was wearing normally. After a 5k mile trip, they said I'd taken the oil a bit longer than I should and should not go to 5k miles. In that case it was an oil wetted clutch/engine oil. At that distance the oil wasn't doing its job protecting the parts.

 

Analysis doesn't have to be done all the time, although trending give best data. You can do a one-time analysis and get usable information. And if you've never been to the Blackstone site it may be worth a visit, just to read their FAQs and have a laugh. From the looks of it they're real people and like a joke as much as the next guy.

 

So for me it's not primarily to extend oil use or see how the 'oil' is doing, but to see how the 'parts' are doing.

[Selden]

When my RT hits 80,000 miles, I'm planning to start using 10,000 mile intervals for all the oils, engine, trans, and FD. Boxer engines have few lubrication issues, so I'm comfortable with slightly longer than recommended. Transmissions and FDs, on the other hand, make me nervous, so I want to see that oil more frequently than recommended. These intervals will probably be a wash on cost, given that gear oil costs more than engine oil.

 

Tangentially related, the Honda Fit (and I suspect many other new cars) has an oil life meter. Owners universally report that at 5000 miles, it typically shows about 50% life left on the oil. Nobody seems entirely sure how the ECM calculates this, but apparently driving habits factor into it; i.e., it's not just a cumulative measurement of operating hours or engine RPMs. Furthermore, Honda says (and Blackstone confirms) that Fits are shipped with special break-in oil that has very high molybdenum levels, and that the break-in oil shouldn't be changed early. I plan to do the first and second oil changes at 5,000 miles, then switch to full synthetic at 10,000 and change thereafter at 10,000 mile intervals.

 

Technology changes.

 

[markgoodrich]

Clip~

 

I have had minor misgivings about bypass valve specifications, too, but the lab report giving my engine a clean bill convinces me it's not an issue.

 

Mark, the by-pass valve doesn’t mean squat UNTIL,, you do a very cold-oil high RPM drive away & blow a hole in your filter element due to thick oil viscosity high pressure & lack of proper by-pass,, or bulge a filter can due to (cold oil) high pressure.. Or the by-pass valve is on the wrong end so extremely high oil pressure at by-pass not only opens the by-pass valve but then washes the accumulated crud from the filter element right through the open by-pass valve..

 

I just wonder if an automotive type oil filter is designed for a high RPM engine that uses 20W50 engine oil in cold weather? Maybe it is,, I sure don’t know..

 

Hey, as long as YOU are happy with what your using & doing that is all that matters..

 

Twisty

 

Well, that certainly makes sense. In my particular case, the engine will never be started in such conditions.

[markgoodrich]

...why, other than the possible warranty-void issue, pay for filters with the letters B M W on them rather than, oh, the Puolator filter that appears to work perfectly?

 

OK, I'll argue a bit:

 

Upon what data-driven lab report do you base your premise that, "oh, the Purolator filter" is as good as the one BMW sells? Who is THEY at Blackstone and how is it that THEY know what is in the engines of all the vehicles owned by the experts who work there?

 

Jay

 

Jay, doesn't it make sense that if the filter was inadequate the oil would show more wear particles? The filter is there to, well filter out stuff which can cause wear (apparently the filter doesn't actually catch small metal parts that have worn off, but rather catches the stuff that causes the wear).

 

Blackstone Labs has a statement on their web site to the effect that the people who work there see an awful lot of oil samples, and based on their analyses they see no difference between "dino" oil and synthetic. You can find out about the "they" part of your question here: http://tinyurl.com/msqpjn

 

[markgoodrich]

Twisty says:

 

"Hey, as long as YOU are happy with what your using & doing that is all that matters.. "

 

When my wife says something like that, I know there's trouble ahead, trouble behind...take my advice, you'd be better off dead. To paraphrase the Grateful Dead.

[Pilgrim]

I've had Blackstone analyses done on the R1100RT ('91) I owned, and on three Harleys. I've always used Mobil One regular, not their bogus "motorcycle" oil.

 

Random comments:

• About the BMW - based on a Blackstone report that said my oil was still in great shape at 7,000 miles, I ran the next load of oil for 9,000 miles (adding 1.5 qts along the way). That mileage was accumulated in both Seattle urban traffic and a 4,000 mile road trip. They told me the sample was still okay, but barely, so thereafter, I changed at 7k miles.
  
• Using the analyses to track metals in the oil, I could see that the wear-in on the engine was finally complete at around 30k miles.
• The pattern for wear-in on the 96 cubic inch engine (the latest iteration of the V-Twin) in my Harley is similar, but appears to be complete at around 25k.
  
• Blackstone's last analysis on the 96" mill reflects that oil should be good for at least 6k miles. That tracks with the case on the 107" S&S engine I had in my now-gone FXRT. The stock 80" engine in that bike used its oil up by around 4-5k miles.
  
• As someone said here, the primary purpose of analysis is not to see how long your oil can last, but to detect abnormal metal wear in the engine and sources of external contamination (water, fuel, antifreeze, dust) before they become a failure. Oil condition reports are a happy side effect that can allow you extend your intervals. That can make the price of the analyses a wash - in effect, the money saved on oil changes can be applied to the insurance of a look at what the engine is doing inside.
  
• Once analyses show that wear-in is complete and I have a "normal" baseline of contaminants, I switch to having them done with every other change.
  
• If extraordinary circumstances dictate prudence, I change my oil sooner regardless of what the last analysis said. F'rinstance, I just discovered that (never mind why) my air filter had been bypassing some unfiltered air since sometime after the last service interval when I had looked at it. So, I will change the oil now, well ahead of schedule.
  

So you can depend on service interval changes and hope that nothing is going wrong down there, or you can let the oil tell you that all is well - or not. I like to know.

 

Pilgrim

 

[markgoodrich]

Clip~

 

I have had minor misgivings about bypass valve specifications, too, but the lab report giving my engine a clean bill convinces me it's not an issue.

 

Mark, the by-pass valve doesn’t mean squat UNTIL,, you do a very cold-oil high RPM drive away & blow a hole in your filter element due to thick oil viscosity high pressure & lack of proper by-pass,, or bulge a filter can due to (cold oil) high pressure.. Or the by-pass valve is on the wrong end so extremely high oil pressure at by-pass not only opens the by-pass valve but then washes the accumulated crud from the filter element right through the open by-pass valve..

 

I just wonder if an automotive type oil filter is designed for a high RPM engine that uses 20W50 engine oil in cold weather? Maybe it is,, I sure don’t know..

 

Hey, as long as YOU are happy with what your using & doing that is all that matters..

 

Twisty

 

Twisty, do you happen to know the pressure setting for the OEM oil filter bypass valve? The Purolator Pl10241 I've used for 35,000 miles is allegedly set (according to the InterWeb) at 14-17psi. If the OEM is set like some, at around 8psi, then in theory there could be a problem with my filter. On the other hand, Blackstone is very proud of my results.

[philbytx]

Seth/Mark,

 

Advance Auto Parts carries Percolator Brand filters, a good product. FYI - I happily use Purolator PureOne air and oil filters in Deb's Subie.

 

I also run 6k oil and filter changes on all our vehicles and use Silver Top/Red Label Mobil1 20w50 in the three BMW's (2bikes and the car) and 5w30 (winter) and 5w40 (summer) Silver Top/Red Label Mobil1 in Deb's Subie.

[philbytx]

Mark,

I did some research on the BMW filter and found the following :

 

3/4"-16 UNF threads, 2.5 bar by-pass setting, the O-ring gasket dimensions are 62mm ID by 71mm OD and the height of the filter is 79mm. The diameter of the filter is 76mm.

 

2.5 bar is 36PSI so you don't have a "high pressure" issue with the Purolator!

 

 

[Kitsap]

A decision when to change your oil is kind of like having to scratch your privates. The scratching feels good but it's not necessary to share the experience in public. A big wooden spoon to you.

[markgoodrich]

A decision when to change your oil is kind of like having to scratch your privates. The scratching feels good but it's not necessary to share the experience in public. A big wooden spoon to you.

 

Whoops! Someone's annoyed!!! Kitsap, is it okay to debate tire pressures? How about Harley Davidsons? Can we all agree on when to replace those pesky Metzeler tires with no wear bars? Where's the best place to tap into the wiring for a fused power block? Please provide a list of acceptable public discussion points, it'll really help us wooden spooners.

 

One time I made the decision to change my oil, and in the process also wanted very badly to scratch my privates. I forgot my hand was covered in oil (prolly Quaker State from a Fram filter) and everything got very...slippery. I think it was about 4:00 in the afternoon. Then things went from bad to worse when I tried to clean the oil off my body with some GoJo.

[Kitsap]

Annoyed? Me? Hell no, I enjoy the banter on this board. It reminds me of watching kids at the county fair chasing pigs in the mud. After a while you realize the pigs are enjoying it, not that I'm saying anyone here is of the bovine persuasion.

 

We have a big wooden spoon in our work group that is given to the peer that stirs up the pot on any given day. It usually resides near my desk

[T__]

Mark,

I did some research on the BMW filter and found the following :

 

3/4"-16 UNF threads, 2.5 bar by-pass setting, the O-ring gasket dimensions are 62mm ID by 71mm OD and the height of the filter is 79mm. The diameter of the filter is 76mm.

 

2.5 bar is 36PSI so you don't have a "high pressure" issue with the Purolator!

 

 

 

Phil, are you sure on your data?

 

If so that BMW filter has a very high by-pass pressure.. If that is so & the Purolator’s by-pass is 14-17 psi then the Purolator is running in by-pass a lot more then the BMW filter is (maybe)..

 

Now it might not be as it seems as the by-pass is usually based on pressure drop across the filter media so it just might mean the BMW filter has a more restrictive filter media possibly due to finer filtration.. Or the BMW filter is specified due to a high oil flow GPM across the filter media & they didn’t want the thing to run in by-pass for a long time with cold oil or at high engine RPM’s at high pump flow..

 

If the by-pass data is true on both the Purolator & the BMW filter that would be enough to keep me from using the Purolator filter..

 

I have always wondered why some of the aftermarket filters are not specified by their manufacturer for the BMW hexhead as they seem to fit OK.. Maybe they don’t meet the by-pass specs to match the factory filter..

 

Interesting..

 

 

Twisty

 

 

[Paul Mihalka]

"After a while you realize the pigs are enjoying it, not that I'm saying anyone here is of the bovine persuasion."

 

Pigs are not of bovine persuasion...

[Kitsap]

"After a while you realize the pigs are enjoying it, not that I'm saying anyone here is of the bovine persuasion."

 

Pigs are not of bovine persuasion...

 

And here I got an A in Animal Science while at university. I knew what I meant. Oink

[markgoodrich]

Annoyed? Me? Hell no, I enjoy the banter on this board. It reminds me of watching kids at the county fair chasing pigs in the mud. After a while you realize the pigs are enjoying it, not that I'm saying anyone here is of the bovine persuasion.

 

We have a big wooden spoon in our work group that is given to the peer that stirs up the pot on any given day. It usually resides near my desk

 

Well, I'm very slightly disappointed you're not annoyed; how else will we get to the sreaming-fit stage of oil thread grief.

 

I'm being flip in this thread, but there's a serious underlying motive: to get actual data presented to all us chickens, rather than "why, I change my oil every 2,000 miles and only use BMW filters, and I've never had a problems, so you use what you want (Stupid) but I know I'm right" opinions. Data, data.

 

Now, if Philby is right, that the BMW filter has an incredibly high 36psi relief valve threshhold, I agree that we'd best use that filter. HOWEVER: limited googling this morning gives the information that Euro oil standards are quite different from the API we use in the States, with apparently higher viscosities, "thicker" oils, with other factors (unknown to me at this time) which require such a high pop-off pressure. Typical U. S. oil filter valve pressures run 8-16psi. Several Euro car manufacturers, BMW included, specify a very particular oil, formulated to their internal design specs, which, if not used, can allegedly lead to catastrophic valve train failure (and also allow very much longer drain intervals, up to 30,000 kilomieters, f'rinstance). Viscosity indices are apparently very different and much higher than what we are used to on this side of the pond...I have only skimmed the info at this point. I hope someone with a better understanding of the chemistry and engineering issues can illuminate us.

 

However, my bike's owner manual calls for using essentially any motor oil on the market in the U. S. (API SF or subsequent). In such case, the very high popoff psi in question would be exceedingly high.

 

More grist.

 

I'm grateful, by the way, that the GoJo I used was the creamy kind, not the kind with abrasive pumice.

 

[realshelby]

For those that think the engine has 50+ pounds of oil pressure ( I'm sure it does as times) and wonder why the %#*& a filter would bypass at 15 pounds or 30 or some other number mentiioned in this thread, the bypass valve opens according to pressure DIFFERENTIAL. That is the measure of pressure of incoming oil stream compared to the pressure of the oil stream after it exits the filter media. When cold, the filter has a higher resistance due to oil viscosity and that is normally when a bypass valve is called upon to allow full flow to engine parts. If your filter is bypassing when oil is hot......you might need to change your oil!

 

Mark, I appreciate your point of view. I doubt anyone here can show their Boxer was hurt by not changing oil soon enough, using non-BMW filters, non-BMW oil. Oil today is a miracle compared to what was used even 20 years ago.

[tallman]

Mark,

I did some research on the BMW filter and found the following :

 

3/4"-16 UNF threads, 2.5 bar by-pass setting, the O-ring gasket dimensions are 62mm ID by 71mm OD and the height of the filter is 79mm. The diameter of the filter is 76mm.

 

2.5 bar is 36PSI so you don't have a "high pressure" issue with the Purolator!

 

 

 

Phil, are you sure on your data?

 

If so that BMW filter has a very high by-pass pressure.. If that is so & the Purolator’s by-pass is 14-17 psi then the Purolator is running in by-pass a lot more then the BMW filter is (maybe)..

 

Now it might not be as it seems as the by-pass is usually based on pressure drop across the filter media so it just might mean the BMW filter has a more restrictive filter media possibly due to finer filtration.. Or the BMW filter is specified due to a high oil flow GPM across the filter media & they didn’t want the thing to run in by-pass for a long time with cold oil or at high engine RPM’s at high pump flow..

 

If the by-pass data is true on both the Purolator & the BMW filter that would be enough to keep me from using the Purolator filter..

 

I have always wondered why some of the aftermarket filters are not specified by their manufacturer for the BMW hexhead as they seem to fit OK.. Maybe they don’t meet the by-pass specs to match the factory filter..

 

Interesting..

 

 

Twisty

 

 

Twisty,

I believe this is congruent with data I posted a good while back on another oil thread.

Not being to smart, I generalized it into "some non-BMW filters don't have the same internal specs as the BMW ones".

What one does w/that is up to them.

[smiller]

Phil, are you sure on your data?

I think we need to resolve this little issue before we get too hot and bothered. As Twisty noted, that's a rather unusual spec. Where was it obtained?

[David]

All these test results posted here on BMWST over the years and I begin to wonder if anyone has ever gotten a report that says to change the oil, and at what miles of oil use that happened. Really.

 

How reliable are these testing services in terms of testing for the right things?

 

They're so reliable that real businesses use them to extend oil change intervals on $1 million engines that, if down, would cost multi-million dollar loses in a single day.

[doc47]

"And mostly because of the cathartic feeling I get whenout with the old and in with the new is completed."

 

Does anyone know the number of a good Freudian psychiatrist?

 

"And here I got an A in Animal Science while at university. I knew what I meant. Oink"

 

You sure that wasn't Animal Husbandry?

[Kitsap]

"And mostly because of the cathartic feeling I get whenout with the old and in with the new is completed."

 

Does anyone know the number of a good Freudian psychiatrist?

 

"And here I got an A in Animal Science while at university. I knew what I meant. Oink"

 

You sure that wasn't Animal Husbandry?

 

It was an Ag school and there was lots of farm fumes in the air

[philbytx]

Folks,

I sent this to Mark in a PM.

 

I did an internet search and discovered the 2.5 bar post plus another couple of posts. From memory (and I am officially 'Old' now), I have seen other posts spec'ing higher pressures for BMW applications but can't remember where!

 

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=317910

 

Also, note the bypass differences on several Frams used on BMW's. anywhere from .75 bar to 2.5 bar!!!!

 

http://www.ibmwr.org/otech/partsubs.shtml#Oilheadff

 

I also discovered information that the spec on the BMW branded oil filter (Mahle/Knecht I believe is OEM) is 9-11 psi!

 

I am like you, believe that the range is down in the 9psi area but there appears to be a lot of "conflicting" psi applications for our filters!

Well, to be fully disclosed, on my bikes I use BMW filters and buy them 6 at a time with a discount.

However, I would have no problem using the Purolator as they are excellent filters and appear to have virtually the same specs.

I will do some further detective work to obtain the definitive answer!

 

Aren't oil threads GREAT (just like sado-masochism )

 

[smiller]

I also discovered information that the spec on the BMW branded oil filter (Mahle/Knecht I believe is OEM) is 9-11 psi!

Which is the same as most automotive replacements. This is simply a non-issue.

[philbytx]

Hey Seth!

 

It IS an issue....at least to Mark !

He started this gratuitous Oil Thread and he warned us....

[Pilgrim]

"After a while you realize the pigs are enjoying it, not that I'm saying anyone here is of the bovine persuasion."

 

Pigs are not of bovine persuasion...

 

And here I got an A in Animal Science while at university. I knew what I meant. Oink

 

Ahhh,yes... animal husbandry. Kitsap, you weren't the guy got kicked out of the Animal Science course there when they caught him practicing it, are you. Or perhaps - Wuuurrrrteeee! Where are you?

 

Pilgrim

[Kitsap]

Not me. It was usually the girls that put on the big plastic sleeve for AI out at the center. Wurty does look a little like my old prof. though.

[Bud]

Very disappointed in the lack of screaming on this oil thread.

 

I only have one word for you all......

 

 

FRAM

[philbytx]

 

Arrrrrrrgggh !

 

NOW you've done it

[markgoodrich]

Hey Seth!

 

It IS an issue....at least to Mark !

He started this gratuitous Oil Thread and he warned us....

 

I didn't consider it gratuitous, Phil. In all my posts, I aim towards factual conclusions rather than opinion or "received wisdom" masquerading as facts. Choose any forum having to do with internal combustion engined conveyances and you will find more than one thread about oil, filled with opinion, guesses, inaccuracies, and facts. Our forum is no different. I do try to use humor to move these discussions along, but in fact I'm after verifiable data. We, especially we Americans, are slaves to marketing (3,000 mile changes; multi-level marketing schemes for synthetic oil, etc). The issue for me isn't "can I save $25 by extending my oil change, or using a cheap Purolator filter," it's "what's happening to my engine with the lubricants I'm using, and how long will they last?"

 

I also consider the consequence of a valid extension of oil change intervals. If in fact everyone could all run engines on average 66% further before changing oil, across the board, consider the reduction in resources used, the reduction in collective and individual carbon footprint. Yes, I said it, carbon footprint.

 

[JayW]

Jay, doesn't it make sense that if the filter was inadequate the oil would show more wear particles?...

 

...You can find out about the "they" part of your question here: http://tinyurl.com/msqpjn

 

Well they don't seem to be big proponents of synthetic oil. From their site: "We here at Blackstone generally use regular petroleum-based oil because honestly, it works just as well for us."

By the way it's a pretty entertaining site too. Thanks for the link.

 

As far as oil filters go, one would need to try to eliminate every other variable except the oil filter and then compare oil samples. You might then conclude that filter One is as good as filter B, although a difference could declare itself as the filter media became saturated with particulates or in other extreme conditions. And maybe filter III is better than both! With such a low n, such a test would also not take quality control at the factory into account, with potential sample-to-sample variability issues.

 

Jay

[philbytx]

Mark

Didn't you see my ROFL?

 

I do understand and actually agree with you!

I use 6k intervals and, likes yourself, am happy to save myself a few shekels where appropriate and the planet wherever I can. The appropriateness of it all is distilled and gleaned from a myriad of sources and decisions made after any additional and appropriate research on my part coupled with the necessary amoutn of introspection!

 

So, when it comes to my comments please don't take me so bloody seriously mate or I'll ride up there and put my carbon footprint on your arse