Bailout - Let's make a deal - another pork barrel

[lawnchairboy]

best talking head comment heard today

 

neil cavuto:

 

The reason the markets are falling is that the markets smelled that something died today: Capitalism.

 

That about sums it up.

[Bud]

Senators quietly tucked a number of earmarks into the tax package of the 451-page bill that was passed Wednesday night and is expected to be put to a vote in the House today:

Un-[censored]ing believable.

 

Unfortunately, John, it's all too believable - and all too common, just not usually on this scale. The necessary votes have been bought with money, overt bribes, not to put too fine a point on it.

 

Disgusting (once more) is what it is.

 

Pilgrim

 

 

 

What bothers me more is not that they did this, but that the sheeple are likely to just re-elect all these bozos again next time. There's no accountability at all.

 

Of course they will get re-elected. After all, they will run on their record of "saving" the economy.

[yabadabapal]

This is a sincere question, meant in the most flattering way.

How can we take all the great analysis and thoughts in this forum thread, and collectively put them into some form of executable action.

Just wondering.

[motoguy128]

best talking head comment heard today

 

neil cavuto:

 

The reason the markets are falling is that the markets smelled that something died today: Capitalism.

 

That about sums it up.

 

True, but capitalism killed itself. All of our problems IMO come back to one thing...GREED... which tends to be a fundamental driver of capitalism. Greed and vanity in all directions has gotten us where we are. Perhaps a little socialsm can pull us out of this mess. More deregulation isn't going to help.

 

[smiller]

How can we take all the great analysis and thoughts in this forum thread, and collectively put them into some form of executable action.

But what would that action be? I've heard a lot of complaining about the moronic, useless imbeciles in Washington but no alternate plans, beyond doing nothing at all that is. Or is that really the collective wisdom?

[John Ranalletta]

In the event of bankruptcy or the insolvency of the pension funds, the taxpayer gets to make the pension payments through the PBGC; however, it's my understanding that if the plans are taken over, employees who received buyouts will not receive unpaid portions and are liable for returning buyout funds they've received.

[Hermes]

But what would that action be? I've heard a lot of complaining about the moronic, useless imbeciles in Washington but not many alternate plans, beyond doing nothing at all that is. Or is that really the collective wisdom?

 

Long term, unfortunately:

 

Become politically engaged and, in the absence of it being manadatory teach your children, or insist on it being tought in school, to vote, vote and vote.

 

Btw, voter apathy is rampant in Canada and my comment is meant more for It. We have been paying the prize for apathy for too long and do deserve the bozzoz we have. Those bozzos, incidentally are now also poised to bail out the Canadian auto industry to the tune of 8 Billion Dollars.

 

A large number of cars and trucks from all 3 are made in Canada and shipped and sold to the US. A failing auto industry is already having huge repurcussions for Canada, especially Ontario.

 

But throwing good money after bad? First Bank bail-outs, then Auto MFG bail-lout, what's next..... taxpayer bailout seems to come to mind, especially when I look at my dwindling investment portfolio.

[bobbybob]

OK, thats it, I'm outta here. Ken, whats the job market like in Edmonton? No, wait, I'm retiring in 2 months. Ken, hows the riding in Edmonton in the winter, eh?

[steve.foote]

This is 205. It was all hashed out last spring and now we get to deal with the reprecussions of foolish thinking.

 

And, speaking of which, I can't think of anything more foolish then the notion that we can vote our way out of our problems. Is it rational to think that more idiots voting will somehow solve the problem? Come on, today, the act of voting is just an illusion designed to make people believe that they actually have a say in the matter. If anything, we should be restricting the right to vote to people who actually have a stake in the game.

 

But, of course, that's not going to happen. I would suggest that each of you pick out a good seat and watch the spectacle play out. I can assure each of you, you ain't never seen what you are about to see.

[John Ranalletta]

How can we take all the great analysis and thoughts in this forum thread, and collectively put them into some form of executable action.

But what would that action be? I've heard a lot of complaining about the moronic, useless imbeciles in Washington but no alternate plans, beyond doing nothing at all that is. Or is that really the collective wisdom?

Raising one's voice, forcefully and repeatedly is doing something. Posting one's complaints here is not sufficient action. Though their elections are in the distance, I have already committed funds and energy to unseat Senators Bayh and Lugar. I have not heard their voices at all in this mess. They are hiding behind their desks, hoping they won't have to stake out a position and defend it. What have your representatives done? What are they're positions? Do you agree with them? Have you challenged them? Have you asked others to challenge or support them?

 

I actively recruit others who think as I do and direct them to resources where they can turn their frustration and anger into measurable actions. I am writing letters to editors. I have never been as politically mobilized as I am today; and, this is not a party issue.

 

Anyone who vents their frustration here but does nothing else deserves what they get.

[smiller]

Raising one's voice, forcefully and repeatedly is doing something.

OK, but (open to anyone) when your voice us raised, what will you say? Any specific actions/solutions to suggest?

[Hermes]

This is 205. It was all hashed out last spring and now we get to deal with the reprecussions of foolish thinking.

 

And, speaking of which, I can't think of anything more foolish then the notion that we can vote our way out of our problems. Is it rational to think that more idiots voting will somehow solve the problem? Come on, today, the act of voting is just an illusion designed to make people believe that they actually have a say in the matter. If anything, we should be restricting the right to vote to people who actually have a stake in the game.

 

But, of course, that's not going to happen. I would suggest that each of you pick out a good seat and watch the spectacle play out. I can assure each of you, you ain't never seen what you are about to see.

 

You are right, Right Spin, we cannot vote our way out of our (current) problems. I am thinking long term, I am thinking generations of informed and engaged voters that help put those people in power that will model the country (countries)in accordance with their citizens' wishes, I am thinking Politicians that will be held accountable (like anyone else holding down a job) for pursuing the platform they were elected for, I am thinking of putting the citizen back into democracy, I am thinking, in the long run to clean house, the Upper, the Lower, the White the Green ...you get my drift.

 

Hey democracy only works when we are all engaged, we all slipped a little in our obligations and responsibilities that democracy demands of us, and so we let a bunch of rascals take advantage of our apathy, or involvement in raising our families. Don't tell me voting cannot solve our problems, you just got to make sure the electorate is knowledgable, and the electorate got to know its voice will be reflected in its government.

 

We haven't screamed loud enough yet, we need to let them know that we ain't gonna take it anymore. Writing little missives back and for'd here is nice and lowers my blood pressure for a while, but it doesn't get heard in the ivory towers of our Politicians and CEO's and other $%%^^^. Only the ballot box counts and gets heard.

 

Sh@#t I am getting exercised here.

[Hermes]

How can we take all the great analysis and thoughts in this forum thread, and collectively put them into some form of executable action.

But what would that action be? I've heard a lot of complaining about the moronic, useless imbeciles in Washington but no alternate plans, beyond doing nothing at all that is. Or is that really the collective wisdom?

Raising one's voice, forcefully and repeatedly is doing something. Posting one's complaints here is not sufficient action. Though their elections are in the distance, I have already committed funds and energy to unseat Senators Bayh and Lugar. I have not heard their voices at all in this mess. They are hiding behind their desks, hoping they won't have to stake out a position and defend it. What have your representatives done? What are they're positions? Do you agree with them? Have you challenged them? Have you asked others to challenge or support them?

 

I actively recruit others who think as I do and direct them to resources where they can turn their frustration and anger into measurable actions. I am writing letters to editors. I have never been as politically mobilized as I am today; and, this is not a party issue.

 

Anyone who vents their frustration here but does nothing else deserves what they get.

 

 

Bang on, Ron, bang on!

 

I am just guessing, but I believe a Politician getting a letter of complaint, or whatever (especially hand-written), automatically multiplies that one letter by a factor of thousands, because he knows there is potentially thousands of voters behind that letter that are just as angry, but are sitting on their hands.

 

[John Ranalletta]

Raising one's voice, forcefully and repeatedly is doing something.

OK, but (open to anyone) when your voice us raised, what will you say? Any specific actions/solutions to suggest?

I've already listed some actions that are very conventional by nature. When I begin reading Bill Ayres instructional manuals, I'll let you know.

 

p.s. The most important thing we can do right now is to minimize our dependence upon 3rd parties while preserving whatever wealth we have left. The Declaration of Independence guarantees the freedoms of speech, movement, worship, etc.; but without cash, these freedoms cannot be exercised to their fullest. Fight any and every initiative that moves wealth from the individual to the government. It's not their money; and what TARP illustrates so well is that they spend it likes it's not their money.

[smiller]

Perhaps I'm missing some nuances but as far as I can read the single concrete action I've seen suggested in this and other other threads thus far is 'let 'em fail.' I understand the political philosophy behind this, but assume that you (or anyone who wishes to respond) have just been elected senator and must translate your political philosophy into some kind of action. After you're done fighting any and every initiative that moves wealth from the individual to the government, what constructive action would you take?

 

 

[steve.foote]

You are right, Right Spin, we cannot vote our way out of our (current) problems. I am thinking long term, I am thinking generations of informed and engaged voters that help put those people in power that will model the country (countries)in accordance with their citizens' wishes, I am thinking Politicians that will be held accountable (like anyone else holding down a job) for pursuing the platform they were elected for, I am thinking of putting the citizen back into democracy, I am thinking, in the long run to clean house, the Upper, the Lower, the White the Green ...you get my drift.

 

That sounds a bit utopian to me. Why would we think that people would suddenly become wiser and more educated? What would their motivation to do so be? Can we simply impose our will on them and make them make better choices?

 

In the case of the United States, we were formed as a federal republic, not as a democracy. At the time, it was believed that those who had a stake in the action were best suited to make important decisions. I doubt property owners of yesteryear voted for the best looking guy if they thought they might lose their farm because of it. It is my opinion that most of our current problems descend directly from democracy.

 

Hey democracy only works when we are all engaged, we all slipped a little in our obligations and responsibilities that democracy demands of us, and so we let a bunch of rascals take advantage of our apathy, or involvement in raising our families. Don't tell me voting cannot solve our problems, you just got to make sure the electorate is knowledgable, and the electorate got to know its voice will be reflected in its government.

 

Right now, half the population splits their votes between the major parties. How's it working out? Do you really believe that all the clever ones are just sitting the elections out, and that if they would just get involved, things would change?

 

We haven't screamed loud enough yet, we need to let them know that we ain't gonna take it anymore. Writing little missives back and for'd here is nice and lowers my blood pressure for a while, but it doesn't get heard in the ivory towers of our Politicians and CEO's and other $%%^^^. Only the ballot box counts and gets heard.

 

Sh@#t I am getting exercised here.

 

The time for screaming is over. Anyone who thinks we can somehow pull our collective asses back from the abyss is simply fooling themselves. What is done, is done. Where it takes us is yet to be determined, but the train has already left the station, and in spite of our best efforts, all we have been able to do is shoot a spit-wad at it. Write all the letters you want if it makes you feel better (I've got a file full of them). But, the best use of your time will be used to understand what is going on, and looking forward, find out where to be when the dust settles.

[John Ranalletta]

I don't know what options would have been available to a sitting representative or senator aside from objecting from the well and voting in opposition.

 

Real change will only come when we take back power from the ruling class in Washington. I agree with Steve that it will not be through elections. Unfortunately, the kind of change I envision will only follow a deeply cathartic, national, uniting event e.g. depression and Coxey's Army type of reaction; war or insurrection. That event might be the collapse of the US$ because, at that point, Washington will have lost its power because it can't field an army or fund its mandates. I'm not hoping for this to happen, but it seems inevitable. Of course, I'm just an alarmist and I should just "go for a ride" and everything will be okay in the morning.

 

BTW, I'd ask anyone who thinks this cannot happen if they correctly guessed the market's historic Sep/Oct loss?

 

[steve.foote]

Of course, I'm just an alarmist and I should just "go for a ride" and everything will be okay in the morning.

 

John, Only a handful of alarmists ran frightened into the jungle. The rest stayed where they were and drank the koolaid. I think it's simply human nature.

 

BTW, I'd ask anyone who thinks this cannot happen if they correctly guessed the market's historic Sep/Oct loss?

 

Or that the Fed, FDIC and Treasury would have spent or obligated $5 trillion taxpayer dollars trying to stop a natural market correction in the short period of just a few months, with more to come. Much more.

[Lawman]

What makes you think the replacement of any politicians would make things better? I believe the ones that are there are there because the majority of the people want them there, otherwise they wouldn't be there to begin with. Whoever first said "democracies get the government they deserve" was 100% correct. Nowadays people who promise the most for the most get elected..More people think they prefer what socialism offers..Just don't call it socialism.. What real chance would any politician have anymore of being elected who ran on a platform of doing the things you believe need to be done to straighten out this economy? I'm expecting two pots for every chicken.

[ghaverkamp]

The Declaration of Independence guarantees the freedoms of speech, movement, worship, etc.; but without cash, these freedoms cannot be exercised to their fullest.

 

The Declaration of Independence guarantees nothing, though it does offer some insight on this topic being discussed in more recent posts.

 

[W]henever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

 

Beyond that, just remember. "If you love America, you throw money in its hole."

[Ken H.]

A lot here of talk of the importance of taking action, beyond just ranting, but to what end goal might I ask? To the goal of restoring what was? I.e. – a capitalistic model - the “American Dream” where everyone can get ahead, two cars in every garage, abundant cheap energy, two chickens in every pot, low cost goods and taxes, America as a world supper-power, etc, etc, etc.?

 

Sorry ladies & gentlemen, that chapter in world history has closed. “Change” was the buzz word in the recent US election, but all most people really were saying was, ‘Change it back.’

 

Some people say, “Well ‘it’ (the US model) has served us well for over 250 years.” But I think the correct phrase is, “It worked for only 250 years.” In the grand scheme of things the USA's history is a very short period of time for a social economic model to be born, rise, and fall. History is repeat with others that lasted 1000s of years. Most of them far from being capitalistic democracies.

 

Only a very small contingency of voices is starting to rise asking the question – “How shall the next nation here be formed/designed?" That’s the real question IMHO.

 

It’s going to be awhile yet, but most true changes, changes to a different direction involve some sort of a mass revolt and/or complete breakdown of the society. Only out of those ashes can/will a better idea rise. By-and-large we're still way too comfy in this country (the USA) for that to happen.

 

There’s no fixing the USA, its capitalistic model is fundamentally flawed.

 

So to those of you promoting letter writing, political activism, etc. I ask – Aren’t you just trying to save a dead horse?

 

[steve.foote]

There’s no fixing the USA, its capitalistic model is fundamentally flawed.

 

Ken, the capitalist model failed when we stopped practicing it. It didn't break us, we broke it.

 

Though we both see a failed system, I see defeat whereas you see victory. We observe from very different perspectives.

[Ken H.]

True, but capitalism killed itself. All of our problems IMO come back to one thing...GREED... which tends to be a fundamental driver of capitalism. Greed and vanity in all directions has gotten us where we are. Perhaps a little socialsm can pull us out of this mess.

And yet every time I even hint that socialist policies have some merit, I just about get blasted out of my chair by the text at BMWST on the monitor! Even though there have been plenty of socialistic programs in the USA for over a century. They just go by different names.

 

People are too quick to jump to the conclusion that Socialism and Communism are synonyms. They are not.

 

It seems quite ironic that the current plans/attempts to save capitalism are, in effect - socialism. Just, again, by different names. E.g. – “rescue plans”, "bailouts", "federal assistance programs", etc.

 

[Ken H.]

There’s no fixing the USA, its capitalistic model is fundamentally flawed.

 

Ken, the capitalist model failed when we stopped practicing it. It didn't break us, we broke it.

Well I’m not sure of the distinction you are making. Guess it depends upon what you are saying we did to break it. I would contend that the flaws were always there. We just finally got to the point/allowed, them to manifest themselves.

 

AS we removed the checks & balances (which were in effect ‘anti-capitalist’ measures) and moved toward a more freer ‘pure capitalist’ model, i.e.- let the market decide all; the flaws in the model just became apparent.

 

[ghaverkamp]

It seems quite ironic that the current plans/attempts to save capitalism are, in effect - socialism. Just, again, by different names. E.g. – “rescue plans”, "bailouts", "federal assistance programs", etc.

 

Where do you get the idea that these plans are attempts to save capitalism? The attempts represent socialistic interference with markets at their worst.

[steve.foote]

People are too quick to jump to the conclusion that Socialism and Communism are synonyms. They are not.

 

You are correct, they are not the same. One preceeds the other.

 

It seems quite ironic that the current plans/attempts to save capitalism are, in effect - socialism. Just, again, by different names. E.g. – “rescue plans”, "bailouts", "federal assistance programs", etc.

 

So, how are these socialist plans working out? Are they helping or hindering?

[steve.foote]

There’s no fixing the USA, its capitalistic model is fundamentally flawed.

 

Ken, the capitalist model failed when we stopped practicing it. It didn't break us, we broke it.

Well I’m not sure of the distinction you are making. Guess it depends upon what you are saying we did to break it.

 

What we did was quit practising it. We moved away from it. We attempted to manipulate and control it. We tried to eliminate the inevitable corrections that capitalism requires from time to time. We abandoned it. We thought we were clever enough to cheat it.

[Ken H.]

Though we both see a failed system, I see defeat whereas you see victory.

If you mean I am gleeful in the failure of the USA; that is not the case. I am deeply saddened by its failure, most importantly because of all the mass misery it is going to cause worldwide.

 

I’m just really tired of all the, “how do we fix it?” conversation. (Not just here, everywhere.) When “fix” just means, ‘put it back the way it was.’ I want to here a conversation/ideas, especially at the federal level, of how to fundamentally change this society to avoid, or at least not prolong, the coming misery. Big ideas. Such as abandonment of personal transportation. (And yes that includes motorcycles.) Or re-concentration of the masses into dense urban cores in areas of the planet more hospitable. Or a return to short transportation food stuff production. Or abandonment of the meat food industry. I could go on. Big ideas. Because IMHO all the current talk is just trying to figure out how to maintain the status-quo, just nibbling around the edges. And all hopelessly small. Not “how do we fix it,” but, “what’s next for humanity?”

 

 

[Ken H.]

What we did was quit practising it. We moved away from it. We attempted to manipulate and control it. We tried to eliminate the inevitable corrections that capitalism requires from time to time. We abandoned it. We thought we were clever enough to cheat it.

Okay... but specific examples? Are you referring to the deregulation trends of the last decade?

[Ken H.]

It seems quite ironic that the current plans/attempts to save capitalism are, in effect - socialism. Just, again, by different names. E.g. – “rescue plans”, "bailouts", "federal assistance programs", etc.

 

So, how are these socialist plans working out? Are they helping or hindering?

Too early to tell. But my crystal ball, just as cloudy as the next guys, says they are hindering. Because they are, at best, just postponing the inevitable – a global correction in how successful societies are constructed.

[steve.foote]

Ken, I simply don't share your regressive view of life. Progress isn't measured by how even misery is distributed. Seriously, Dude, I just don't get you.

 

As I've stated more than enough times, we aren't going back. It's just not in the cards. The only serious way to "go back" would be for the government to withdraw completely from the private sector and let the economy take its natural course. We have a better chance of colonizing saturn.

[steve.foote]

What we did was quit practising it. We moved away from it. We attempted to manipulate and control it. We tried to eliminate the inevitable corrections that capitalism requires from time to time. We abandoned it. We thought we were clever enough to cheat it.

Okay... but specific examples? Are you referring to the deregulation trends of the last decade?

 

I just can't help you with this anymore. There are only 26 letters on my keyboard.

[Ken H.]

OK, thats it, I'm outta here. Ken, whats the job market like in Edmonton? No, wait, I'm retiring in 2 months. Ken, hows the riding in Edmonton in the winter, eh?

Well, so far, still quite good.

 

The job market part that is.

 

The riding in the winter part – not so much!

 

[Ken H.]

Seriously, Dude, I just don't get you.

Well let me try…

 

I DO have a progressive view. What form of social economic society do we (humanity) progress to next that is better than this one? Because there is always a “better.” In anything. There is absolutely no reason to believe that the experiment in how to construct one that became the USA was the end-all, be-all. It was/is just another step in our evolution. If we are truly smart, adaptive creatures, and despite our occasional set backs we are, then we learn from our mistakes, our experiments, forward steps, missteps.

 

As I've stated more than enough times, we aren't going back. It's just not in the cards. The only serious way to "go back" would be for the government to withdraw completely from the private sector and let the economy take its natural course. We have a better chance of colonizing saturn.

Yes I know you agree we aren’t going back. I just don’t think the mainstream has woken up to that fact. Yet. They’re still clinging to the hope that someone, anyone, has that silver, turn the clock back, bullet.

[Ken H.]

I'm not hoping for this to happen,

"I am left with no other conclusion that Federal Reserve Notes - backed by nothing - will default in the future. The $100 trillion question is only when, not if."

 

And there-in lays the rub, doesn't it?

[David]

We have a better chance of colonizing saturn.

 

I think I've already made it clear that we should not be propping up the automotive industry.

[Whip]

I'm sure this will make y'all fee much better.

 

 

[smiller]

Because they are, at best, just postponing the inevitable – a global correction in how successful societies are constructed.

Interesting that those toward the more extreme ends of the left and right seem to agree on this point. But I kind of doubt that the two pictures are the same when it comes to exactly how global societies are reconstructed...

[BFish]

let's face it...taxes are going up and money is being printed for among other things, bailouts.

 

as much as i hate paying taxes, and if they're going to rise, i suggest that all incremental tax proceeds from the "rich" tax be put in a separate, accountable fund. said fund to be used only for creating jobs relating to our country's infrastructure, i.e. roads, bridges, etc. do not comingle the $$'s with other treasury funds subject to the fed budget. the infrastructure work would create decent paying jobs. the private sector would be the recipient of the new work and be required to maintain some level of employment. i'd even like to see some of the stimulus $$ go a fund for this purpose. jobs need to be maintained/created. if govt $$'s involved why not mandate that we rebuild our roads and bridges vs letting wall street use it for needs none of us see or understand.

[philbytx]

 

I left a socialist country to come to the U.S. some 30 years ago....trust me, socialism doesn't work, in any way, shape or form...it goes against human nature!

 

Successive administrations have not allowed capitalism to work properly....life with reward but no risk is life without learning. Look where we are now.....

 

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinburgh) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior.

 

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy,(which is) always

followed by a dictatorship."

 

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

 

From Bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependence back into bondage."

 

I guess the more things change, the more things stay the same.

 

So, where do you think we are now? IMHO, we are past apathy and nearing dependence!

 

PS: I am aware that we are not a "true" democracy but, then again, neither was Rome or Greece. We are a actually a democratic republic.

 

Unfortunately, like a lot of folks, we have seen our retirement nest egg cracked but, as of this writing, not completely broken....we pray that it won't go bad before we make our final omelet .

 

At this critical time in our lives and in the history of this country, I remember the words of Oliver Cromwell who, when addressing his men before a battle with the Royalists said "Trust in the Lord my boys, but mind to keep your powder dry".

 

May your God bless you...

 

 

 

[beemerboy]

First, the apathy of the majority of Americans is stunning. As long as a particular action doesn't directly affect them, they simply tune it out.

 

We are sheep.

 

If you don't have change from above you will have revolt from below. It may not happen in our lifetime but something tells me this country is headed for a revolt that will turn us into a totalitarian state.

[keithb]

"I remember the words of Oliver Cromwell who, when addressing his men before a battle with the Royalists said "Trust in the Lord my boys, but mind to keep your powder dry"."

 

This is an interesting statement based a good friend replenshing about 10K rounds of ammo and guns sales going thru the roof prior to the election.

[smiller]

This is an interesting statement based a good friend replenshing about 10K rounds of ammo and guns sales going thru the roof prior to the election.

Demonstrating that people are not only sheep, they're nuts as well.

[Tony_K]

Increased gun sales...Jeesh!

America, there is no other place in the world with folks like us.

[Whip]

This is an interesting statement based a good friend replenshing about 10K rounds of ammo and guns sales going thru the roof prior to the election.

Demonstrating that people are not only sheep, they're nuts as well.

 

 

Don't you collect guns??????

[Lawman]

I left a socialist country to come to the U.S. some 30 years ago....trust me, socialism doesn't work, in any way, shape or form...it goes against human nature!

 

Successive administrations have not allowed capitalism to work properly....life with reward but no risk is life without learning. Look where we are now.....

 

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinburgh) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior.

 

"A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy,(which is) always

followed by a dictatorship."

 

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

 

From Bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependence back into bondage."

 

I guess the more things change, the more things stay the same.

 

So, where do you think we are now? IMHO, we are past apathy and nearing dependence!

 

PS: I am aware that we are not a "true" democracy but, then again, neither was Rome or Greece. We are a actually a democratic republic.

 

Unfortunately, like a lot of folks, we have seen our retirement nest egg cracked but, as of this writing, not completely broken....we pray that it won't go bad before we make our final omelet .

 

At this critical time in our lives and in the history of this country, I remember the words of Oliver Cromwell who, when addressing his men before a battle with the Royalists said "Trust in the Lord my boys, but mind to keep your powder dry".

 

May your God bless you...

 

 

 

Phil,

I had read this before but couldn't find it when I looked for it just a few days ago....It seems compelling to me...Thanks..

[Lawman]

This is an interesting statement based a good friend replenshing about 10K rounds of ammo and guns sales going thru the roof prior to the election.

Demonstrating that people are not only sheep, they're nuts as well.

 

 

Don't you collect guns??????

 

 

The Declaration of Independence guarantees nothing, though it does offer some insight on this topic being discussed in more recent posts.

 

[W]henever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute a new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

 

Thanks ghaverkamp...

 

 

[philbytx]

Howdy Billy!

 

Yes, that quote has been in my head for years, back to the time when I lived in the U.K. and I felt the country was going down the crapper! We left there and came here as 20th century immigrants. It stirred me then and I believe it is very apropos now.

 

In my life, I have never been more grateful than I am now that Deb and I are living in a small town in Texas

 

 

 

[smiller]

Don't you collect guns??????

Not based on elections.

[steve.foote]

We have a better chance of colonizing saturn.

 

I think I've already made it clear that we should not be propping up the automotive industry.