Bailout - Let's make a deal - another pork barrel

[John Ranalletta]

To keep this from being locked, instead of naming names, let's use the term "certain parties" tried to divert large sums of the bailout pot to their pet constituencies, one of which is closely associated with a presidential candidate.

 

The bill will pass, unfortunately, but as it's born, it will become another pork barrel, funding pet projects. You heard it here first, and if you're surprise, you're either naive or ?.

 

I've written and phoned each of my representatives and senators asking them to go home and do no more harm.

 

The government will own the banking system.

 

If you watched CNBC this morning and then looked at its website, you'll notice they didn't post video of the commentator who called the politicians who crafted this deal "a bunch of creeps".

[steve.foote]

John, I know how serious you are about this, but you really need to let it go. There's nothing you can do to stop it, and it's not worth ruining your health over.

 

I went through the same emotions you are going through now, several months ago. I felt there had to be a way to turn this thing around. It couldn't simply be over. Not like this. But, if you look around, I think you'll come to the same conclusion as I have that this thing can no longer be fixed. Too much water has gone over the falls, the train has left the station, that ship has sailed, pick the cliché of choice but the fact remains that we have simply moved too far away from free markets and capitalism to go back.

 

For me, the turning point was two observations. First, the apathy of the majority of Americans is stunning. As long as a particular action doesn't directly affect them, they simply tune it out. This allows our esteemed representatives in government a free hand in their dealings with special interests. Principle's no longer matter to the majority.

 

The second observation was much more chilling. Almost nobody is willing to step up to the plate anymore. I always hoped that a white knight would ride in and save us. There are a lot of extremely talented people in this country, but most of them don’t want anything to do with Washington or its ungrateful public. It is the fact that these guys are standing on the sidelines that tells me everything I need to know. They won't step in because they don't believe they can make a difference. High powered people put their efforts into things which bear fruit. I believe that they have come to the conclusion that our society is hopelessly broken and can't be saved.

 

It's a bitter pill to swallow. There is the world as we would like it to be, and then there is the world as it is. In this case, reality has landed far away from those of my wishes. John, I really wish I could believe in a turnaround again, but I'm afraid it is just too late now. As I've stated before, this doesn't mean that the United States is finished; just that it's going to change, gradually. We will emerge from this a different country. And, whether that change is for better or worse, our efforts now should be directed towards coping with the new paradigm.

[UberXY]

This bailout is just the first one. The next one will be even bigger.

[steve.foote]

This bailout is just the first one. The next one will be even bigger.

 

Actually, it isn't the first, but it is by far the biggest so far. And, I believe you are correct that the next one will be even larger.

 

The new official federal response to any problem is to put a government official on a government plane and fly in the government checkbook so they can dump large quantities of someone elses money on the problem. It's almost funny when you think about. Well, almost.

[Gregori]

It just more business as usual in Washington - of COURSE every piss-ant politician who can get their fingers into the cookie jar wants to get a 'special' deal for the special interests near and dear to their heart checkbook.

 

Politicians of all stripes are in it for the control/'prestige'/money/etc.... The thought that they represent those who do the voting is no longer a valid one, with VERY few exceptions. (Federal especially, but even down to the state level...)

 

Write all the letters and make all the calls you like - but it's as futile as holding a cardboard sign up in front of the statehouse - they just don't care. They'll make noises near elections to the contrary, but the rest of the time it's all about getting the most out of it for themselves.

 

 

Oh yeah - IBTL!

 

 

 

[motoguy128]

I can see the cartoon now... A picture with the USS Missouri off shore of NYC lobbing shells packed full of US Dollars. The caption reads "US Navy Recommissions USS Missouri for emergency recovery plan". "The Air Force Determined that dumping sacks full of cash out cargo planes lacked the ability to penetrate deep into the markets."

[Lets_Play_Two]

" but it's as futile as holding a cardboard sign up in front of the statehouse - they just don't care. They'll make noises near elections to the contrary, but the rest of the time it's all about getting the most out of it for themselves."

 

 

The result of a generation of career politicians. We no longer have citizen legislators...these are people who have chosen politics (not public service) as a career. Their primary motivation therefore is just like anyone who has a job...keep that job.

[John Ranalletta]

Okay, Steve. I get it; and, this will be my last post.

 

Every day, we're sending kids to foreign lands to die for this system of government. IMO, this deal represents a change in that system that is so pervasive and dangerous that it poses more threat to our system of government than the Talliban or Al Queda.

 

Luckily, I don't have to make this decision today, but if I were, I could not in good conscience permit or encourage my child to fight and die to protect what we're seeing in Washington today. That's how strongly my feelings run.

 

Certainly, this is only a forum for letting off steam, but if everyone just sits by and doesn't yell at their representatives, then the war is lost.

[Fugu]

The amount of power that this bailout will give to one man, without oversight, is frightening. It's way worse than the dollar amount involved, which is staggering.

 

It gives a single man, who has already proven himself unworthy of trust, a huge amount of discretion in how the money is spent.

 

It's just like every other time government declares an emergency and says WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING!

 

The SOMETHING always seems to be expanding government and grabbing power.

 

 

 

[Lawman]

First, the apathy of the majority of Americans is stunning. As long as a particular action doesn't directly affect them, they simply tune it out.

 

We are sheep.

[Fugu]

Oh, and by the way - did you all know this sort of stuff was going on behind the scenes all the while? $20million here, $20 million there.... it's just tax money. Spend spend spend.

 

And we're #10 in foreclosures- I wonder how much money the #1 state is getting?

 

Utah offered millions to buy empty homes

September 29th, 2008 @ 8:55am

 

PROVO, Utah (AP) -- The federal government offered Utah nearly $20 million to buy and restore foreclosed homes for resale.

 

Utah has 18 months to come up with a plan for the money.

 

U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development spokesman Brian Sullivan says the level of funding is determined by the number of home foreclosures, number of subprime mortgages, defaults and delinquencies in a state.

 

According to RealtyTrac, Utah ranks 10th in the nation for foreclosure filings. In June, foreclosures in the Provo-Orem area jumped 810 percent from the same month a year before.

 

That ranked Provo-Orem No. 37 among major metro areas nationally.

 

During the same month, Utah's rate of new foreclosures year-over-year outpaced the national average three times over.

[smiller]

We all know the downsides of a government bailout. What are the downsides of doing nothing? Which would likely cost the American taxpayer more?

 

 

[John Ranalletta]

We all know the downsides of a government bailout. What are the downsides of doing nothing? Which would likely cost the American taxpayer more?

Broke my promise...

 

You only think you know the downsides of a bailout. I don't and neither does anyone else.

 

200 economists recommended against it and were adjudged "ivory tower eggheads".

 

Oh, how I wish Jude Wanniski was still alive.

[steve.foote]

I hear you John, and I'm really sorry. I too hate to admit defeat, but I can't find any other way to see it. At some point, we simply have to come to the realization of where things actually are. Otherwise, we are only deceiving ourselves, which serves no useful purpose.

[smiller]

You only think you know the downsides of a bailout.

And you only think that you know the downsides of doing nothing.

 

[ghaverkamp]

You only think you know the downsides of a bailout.

And you only think that you know the downsides of doing nothing.

 

It should be clear that nobody definitively knows the economic effects of doing nothing versus doing something.

 

The non-economic effects of a bailout should be somewhat easier to predict. As talk of the (apparently currently dead in its current form) bailout went on, we saw lots of other industries stepping up for their own bailouts. And why not? The money's all green.

[dogboy11]

ok, my opinion .... none of this matters ... pass the bailout, don't pass the bailout... elect Obama, elect McCain ... none of it matters until we change one thing .... we HAVE to start producing goods in this country again and exporting them instead of being a nation of consumers only.... producing goods has been the backbone of this entire country and it has been removed steadily since the 70s ... and we have stood back and watched it happen.

 

 

DB

[chrisolson]

You only think you know the downsides of a bailout.

And you only think that you know the downsides of doing nothing.

 

It should be clear that nobody definitively knows the economic effects of doing nothing versus doing something.

 

...

I think we're gonna find out what doing nothing really means. Looks like I'm not going to be able to retire in 2 years ...

[smiller]

Looks like I'm not going to be able to retire in 2 years ...

Well if it comes to that you will probably still be a lot better off than many of the 'mad as hell' voters trying to kill any government action.

 

 

 

[Dave McReynolds]

It's interesting for me to see how the far left and far right voted to defeat this (or at least hold it up for another day or so), like they sometimes vote together on other issues, such as immigration. Maybe you guys have more in common than you know? Maybe a new political party should be formed: "Where the ends meet" or something.

 

Frankly, I don't know how to feel about the vote today, because I don't know any more than any of the rest of you about the probable consequences. No doubt if the bill had passed, things would have been a little nicer for the next few weeks or months. But after that? We're already on thin ice as far as refinancing our existing treasury debt, let alone adding another $350-700 billion to it. I assume that if it came to it, the consequences of not being able to refinance T-bills as they came due, or of skyrocketing interest costs that would eat up the federal budget, would be worse than the discomfort we will suffer in the short-term as things get sorted out. But maybe that wouldn't happen either, so all I can say is, good luck, us!

[beemerman2k]

ok, my opinion .... none of this matters ... pass the bailout, don't pass the bailout... elect Obama, elect McCain ... none of it matters until we change one thing .... we HAVE to start producing goods in this country again and exporting them instead of being a nation of consumers only.... producing goods has been the backbone of this entire country and it has been removed steadily since the 70s ... and we have stood back and watched it happen.

 

 

DB

 

 

You and I share the same concern and I must say I agree with you 100%. A friend of mine was showing me the Trek bicycle he rides in to work everyday. He was telling me about Trek, Cannondale, and some other brands. Then he mentioned that they are all made outside the USA! (Back when I rode a bicycle, they were USA brands). Since when and why did the item become more desirable simply because it is NOT made in the USA?!

[smiller]

good luck, us!

Well, if a recession is when your neighbor loses his job and a depression is when you lose yours... let's hope that all most of us sees is a recession...

[TyTass]

ok, my opinion .... none of this matters ... pass the bailout, don't pass the bailout... elect Obama, elect McCain ... none of it matters until we change one thing .... we HAVE to start producing goods in this country again and exporting them instead of being a nation of consumers only.... producing goods has been the backbone of this entire country and it has been removed steadily since the 70s ... and we have stood back and watched it happen.

 

DB

 

You and I share the same concern and I must say I agree with you 100%. A friend of mine was showing me the Trek bicycle he rides in to work everyday. He was telling me about Trek, Cannondale, and some other brands. Then he mentioned that they are all made outside the USA! (Back when I rode a bicycle, they were USA brands). Since when and why did the item become more desirable simply because it is NOT made in the USA?!

 

I hear you both. The answer to your question (rhetorical or not) is ... when we simply stopped producing. Go ask those company execs why they moved their production overseas or stopped trying to compete and their answer will be resounding "a combination of lower costs (greater & cheaper workforce labor, reduced facility requirements/expenses, less taxes, etc.)." We have made it too difficult and thus too expensive to produce quality to compete with foreign production. Americans will buy cheaper everytime. Witness the advent and success of the nationwide department store chains.

 

Reduced production, increase of foreign labor, government buyouts, worry of economic collapse. This all reads exactly like a chapter out of Atlas Shrugged.

[Dave McReynolds]

Go ask those company execs why they moved their production overseas or stopped trying to compete and their answer will be resounding "a combination of lower costs (greater & cheaper workforce labor, reduced facility requirements/expenses, less taxes, etc.)."

 

We are getting some help from the higher fuel costs. I have already read of several business that have moved back into the US to save the transportation costs from China.

 

But in order to make any major dent in the problem, I think we have to address a major hypocrisy that we all seem willing to live with: We pass environmental, worker safety, minimum wage, welfare, and child labor laws that improve life in the United States, but also raise the cost of goods produced here to non-competitive levels. But we are perfectly happy to buy goods manufactured in countries that don't have these laws, and thus have lower manufacturing costs. I assume that if you aren't willing to work at the prevailing wage in the workers' paradise of China, you have the freedom to starve. If you complain about working conditions, you have the freedom to seek work elsewhere. If you write an article about the massive polution, you get an all expenses paid vacation for 10 years or so to the far north of China.

 

I don't think it does any good to ask people to view this as an individual, moral issue and "buy American," anymore than it does any good to "just say no" to drugs and sex. If our laws are worth having for ourselves, they're worth having as a condition for trading with others. If it's more important to trade with others than it is to worry about what laws apply to those who make the goods we buy, then we shouldn't have those laws for ourselves, either, which would allow us to be competitive.

[Hermes]

 

 

DB

 

 

...... Since when and why did the item become more desirable simply because it is NOT made in the USA?!

 

Well, since our politics are very similar and since the effect of a bailout will no doubt be felt here too, and since we too import just about every consumer item you can think of, and since we are exporting just about any raw material we 'harvest' to the value adding companies of countries where the labour rates are extremely low, I feel I may be allowed to have a go at your (rethorical?) question:

 

I believe our economy is based on individual and corporate greed. The motivation of a corporation is not to be a good corporate citizen and to plow a reasonable amount of profits back into its labour force, into its community and into diversification and home based expansion. The goal of corporations is to satisfy and maximize returns for its stockholder, no matter how shortsighted that may be (from and environmental and economic point of view).

The stockholder, one way or the other is us. The popularity of us diddling in the stock market, the investment portfolio we are building for out retirement and the investment portfolio our large Pension Funds are pursuing all run on maximizing (y)our profits.

We can blame the overprized CEOs of large corporation for farming out manufacturing contracts to poorer countries, but in a round about way, he/she is just representing and employing a method that is in our best interest (short term).

Unfortunately, the method is unsound and, in the long run, unsustainable (do you really need more proof?). The large majority of our countrie's labour force is now employed in the Service Industry, where the jobs are usually Part Time/Full Time, low paid, low or no fringe benefit, no job security and minimal buying power.

In this climate, this large majority welcomes and demands cheap consumer goods from, say China, that's all we can afford, thus we, as consumers of cheap goods, are feeding this downward spiral and play into the hands of the corporations. We are our worst enemy!

 

What we need, IMHO, is to change our economic structure so that all domestic companies are mandated to employ domestic labour forces, full time, with fringe benefits, such as Health Insurance and Company Pension Funds etc. Further, the corporations need to plow their profits back into the community, be it local State wide, or National, and, the CEOs of these companies need a reality check and are to receive salaries not to exceed (max) say 10 times the highest paid non exec's position in that company.

 

What will happen, is that the labour force now has the certainty of building a nestegg, has the peace of mind of Health Insurance and other fringe benefits and, does not require to diddle in the market themselves. The labour force has now more buying power and can now buy domestic. The CEOs of those corporations now have a different mandate that not just benefits the stockholders, but benefits the citizen of our countries.

In this economic structure, we also maintain an advantage over our Global competitiors for they now will not have the benefit of a huge, First World Countries export market, they will have to look inwards and build their own economies.

 

Kind of, like the way it was and the way we had it when we, in the Western World, prospered. Our greed has weakened us.

 

The boys of Chicago (Milton Friedman) have it wrong!

 

 

Things to do:

 

Develop a 25 Year economic plan to raise our countries back to their former strength and glory.

 

Get rid of Career Politicians.

Jail Politicians that do the opposite of their election promises.

Implement a review process for Politicians' performances.

Get rid of Lobbyists.

Curtail Imports to a sustainable minimum.

Export only what cannot reasonably be value added domestically.

Minimize foreign and irradicate illegal labour.

Reset the minimum wages.

etc etc etc

 

...sing along to John Leonards song:

Imagine all the people living in a world.....

 

[blkvelvt]

This bailout is just the first one. The next one will be even bigger.

 

To use the example or analogy of this being a bail-out, I see Wall Street as a leaky bucket with big holes in it. We all know that fixing the holes would be the right thing to do but the Government just wants to fill the bucket up again with our money.

[KDeline]

What a time we picked to retire. Crap.

[Ken H.]

We all know the downsides of a government bailout. What are the downsides of doing nothing? Which would likely cost the American taxpayer more?

 

Personal opinion, we're going to see (in effect) both.

 

I say both because if, or should I say when, because I bet today's no vote is only a temporary set back, there is a bail out bill; it won’t work. Because all it is targeted to do is roll the clock back a ways to allow the same old kiting schemes to continue.

 

The best the bailout can do is buy a bit of time. In the end we’ll have to endure the downside regardless.

 

[Ken H.]

First, the apathy of the majority of Americans is stunning. As long as a particular action doesn't directly affect them, they simply tune it out. This allows our esteemed representatives in government a free hand in their dealings with special interests. Principle's no longer matter to the majority.

Well I actually saw a small glimmer of hope today as a number of Representatives sighted constituent’s outrage and feedback as a part of the reason they were voting no. It seems at least for a second people have woke up a bit.

 

But I agree with you in general, this train has left the station.

 

[smiller]

The government can already take any number of actions even without Congressional approval, witness the number of mini-bailouts were seen so far. Lack of a comprehensive bill will only mean more unregulated ad hoc expenditures (amounting to who knows how much) without any of the controls in the current bill. That's better?

 

[Ken H.]

But I don' think even the exec branch could do something this big. If they could, why would there be any wrangling over getting a bill through congress right now?

[smiller]

But I don' think even the exec branch could do something this big. If they could, why would there be any wrangling over getting a bill through congress right now?

Because an orderly and structured bailout will have a more positive effect on the financial markets than a haphazard and unpredictable reaction to each failure. The latter will not be as productive and perhaps even ultimately more expensive, but it is what we will have if we do not allow a comprehensive plan to pass.

 

No matter how repugnant it may be to swallow the current bill (or something like it) is a much more measured and practical response, provides at least a chance of the taxpayers getting some of the money back in the future, and may ultimately cost less. We can stomp around all we like but those are the unpleasant facts, and why such a plan will eventually pass. Again, we just have to decide how much unnecessary damage we want to occur before we do what we always had to do anyway.

 

 

[chrisolson]

Since a lot of this board is dedicated to German motorcycles, and this isn't just an American problem, here's a take on the crisis from the German Finance Minister LINKY

[subvet]

First, the apathy of the majority of Americans is stunning. As long as a particular action doesn't directly affect them, they simply tune it out. This allows our esteemed representatives in government a free hand in their dealings with special interests. Principle's no longer matter to the majority.

 

yeah, alot of apathy but I think that most people are confused and don't really understand the problem, the resulting reaction is to withdraw. It's been a long time since I was a student and haven't had kids in school in awhile so what are they teaching them? Is there any effort anymore to teach kids anything about government, and basic economics and money management?

 

 

 

The second observation was much more chilling. Almost nobody is willing to step up to the plate anymore. I always hoped that a white knight would ride in and save us. There are a lot of extremely talented people in this country, but most of them don’t want anything to do with Washington or its ungrateful public. It is the fact that these guys are standing on the sidelines that tells me everything I need to know. They won't step in because they don't believe they can make a difference. High powered people put their efforts into things which bear fruit. I believe that they have come to the conclusion that our society is hopelessly broken and can't be saved.

 

y'know, if these clowns in Washington let this turn into a finger-pointing festival alot of folks are going to get alot sicker of the whole situation than they are now. I believe, we are alot closer to an opportunity to reform in government than we think. As painful as it is, sometimes you have to let things get completely broken in order to really fix things. If a coalition of people like Boone Pickens, Warren Buffet, Colin Powell, etc....were to organize behind a government reform party, that would be the revolution we so badly need.

[motoguy128]

 

Things to do:

 

Develop a 25 Year economic plan to raise our countries back to their former strength and glory.

 

Get rid of Career Politicians.

Jail Politicians that do the opposite of their election promises.

Implement a review process for Politicians' performances.

Get rid of Lobbyists.

Curtail Imports to a sustainable minimum.

Export only what cannot reasonably be value added domestically.

Minimize foreign and irradicate illegal labour.

Reset the minimum wages.

etc etc etc

 

...sing along to John Leonards song:

Imagine all the people living in a world.....

 

I like these ideas. I would add increasing import tarriffs, but reducing domestic taxes on certain goods, especially commodities. Force more sustainability, in particular with energy.

[motoguy128]

 

yeah, alot of apathy but I think that most people are confused and don't really understand the problem, the resulting reaction is to withdraw. It's been a long time since I was a student and haven't had kids in school in awhile so what are they teaching them? Is there any effort anymore to teach kids anything about government, and basic economics and money management?

 

 

No. I graduated HS 11 years ago, and I had 1 class in Governemnt, but nothing in economics or finance. I think ignorrance is in part to blame for the largest gap in wealth sicne the Great Depression... along wiht a long stream of inbalanced tax cuts and tax breaks for investers and wealthy individuals.

 

I also think the rich have become more likely to build their wealth rather than invest it or donate it in their local communities. I know that's a problem in my community.... most of the "old money" just sit on it. They retired a long time ago and have no desire to invest in the community or invest in local small businesses. Main street is literally half vacant... although Walmart is partly to blame for that.

[John Ranalletta]

Well, it passed and will soon be signed.

 

When running errands this weekend, be sure to avoid real estate sales offices and automobile dealers. I'm certain there will be long queues of buyers just busting to make purchases now that they can get credit.

 

 

[Pilgrim]

Well, it passed and will soon be signed.

 

When running errands this weekend, be sure to avoid real estate sales offices and automobile dealers. I'm certain there will be long queues of buyers just busting to make purchases now that they can get credit.

 

When a politician gets an idea, he usually gets it wrong - once more.

 

Pilgrim

[steve.foote]

I just hope the "rescue" penetrates all of the market. I need a new beard trimmer and would like to spread the cost out as long as possible.

[Spyder]

Personally, I can't wait until the cost of wooden arrows goes down.

[John Ranalletta]

Personally, I can't wait until the cost of wooden arrows goes down.

Senators quietly tucked a number of earmarks into the tax package of the 451-page bill that was passed Wednesday night and is expected to be put to a vote in the House today: a $2 million tax benefit for makers of wooden arrows for children; a $100 million tax break to benefit auto racetrack owners; $192 million in rebates on excise taxes for the Puerto Rican and Virgin Islands rum industry; $148 million in tax relief for U.S. wool fabric producers; and a $49 million tax benefit for fishermen and other plaintiffs who sued over the 1989 tanker Exxon Valdez spill.

Un-[censored]ing believable.

[Pilgrim]

Senators quietly tucked a number of earmarks into the tax package of the 451-page bill that was passed Wednesday night and is expected to be put to a vote in the House today:

Un-[censored]ing believable.

 

Unfortunately, John, it's all too believable - and all too common, just not usually on this scale. The necessary votes have been bought with money, overt bribes, not to put too fine a point on it.

 

Disgusting (once more) is what it is.

 

Pilgrim

 

 

 

[russell_bynum]

Senators quietly tucked a number of earmarks into the tax package of the 451-page bill that was passed Wednesday night and is expected to be put to a vote in the House today:

Un-[censored]ing believable.

 

Unfortunately, John, it's all too believable - and all too common, just not usually on this scale. The necessary votes have been bought with money, overt bribes, not to put too fine a point on it.

 

Disgusting (once more) is what it is.

 

Pilgrim

 

 

 

What bothers me more is not that they did this, but that the sheeple are likely to just re-elect all these bozos again next time. There's no accountability at all.

[Ken H.]

Well I for one am sure glad THAT's fixed.

 

Now we can all get back to living beyond our means like things are pupose to be!

 

(PS: Where's that said in saracsm icon again on the toolbar?)

[Twisties]

I was confused before, now I'm beyond confused...

 

It isn't housing and subprime mortgages afterall... it's autoloans.

 

I need that confused emoticon really, really bad right now...

[AZKomet]

I was confused before, now I'm beyond confused...

 

It isn't housing and subprime mortgages afterall... it's autoloans.

 

I need that confused emoticon really, really bad right now...

 

Yes, me too, but you have an excuse. All those chemicals can cause that ya know!

[Ken H.]

Let’s see, a month ago they had to have $700B that very week to avoid catastrophic immediate collapse.

 

Now a month later they’ve only figured out what to do with $250B, reneged on part of the original proposal, and are unsure what to do with the rest.

 

How do you spell, W E A R E U C K E D ?

 

[David]

If you think I sounded pissed off earlier at the prospect of the first pucked up bailout policy, wait until you hear me pop off steam if we start propping up stupid Ford, GM, and Chrysler. It's hard for me to imagine someone having the balls to do that in this environment, but they ARE considering it. Unfreakinbelievable.

 

I would not be in favor of spending a dime on the automakers or those who borrowed money to buy cars.

[BFish]

at least give us the money to buy a vehicle if the green stuff is going to be doled out.

[David]

What they'll do with it instead is fund buyouts of workers they should have dismissed years ago, then keep some idle plants idle for a little longer, then use the remaining cash to hire fiddlers for the deck party while the ship lists to one side and starts taking on water. Then they'll file bankruptcy and we'll get screwed again!