Joe Horn has been cleared by a Grand Jury.

[Bob Palin]

However, personal gut feeling: I'm pretty much with lawman and Fugu on this one. I couldn't live in Texas because of the heat, but I'd be happy to live in a place with gun laws like Texas.

No gun laws were involved here, a man called the authorities, refused to do what they told him and took it upon himself to go outside and kill two other men - pure, simple, murder.

[Huzband]

However, personal gut feeling: I'm pretty much with lawman and Fugu on this one. I couldn't live in Texas because of the heat, but I'd be happy to live in a place with gun laws like Texas.

No gun laws were involved here, a man called the authorities, refused to do what they told him and took it upon himself to go outside and kill two other men - pure, simple, murder.

 

Bob, without knowing you, or your states laws, I wonder what you might have done in that circumstance.

[DavidEBSmith]

 

Except that the cops were there.

 

In plain clothes, hiding in an unmarked car...

 

 

Sometime the cops do that. It's called tactics. It's what professional, trained law enforcement officers do when they feel it's appropriate for the situation. Then the situation gets blown up by an idiot with a shotgun.

 

I think it's interesting that the trained police officer who was on the scene when Horn came out of his house didn't feel that the situation presented the need to go blasting the men in the back with a shotgun. But of course, Horn knew better than a trained police officer, right?

 

What if that detective got out of the car and Horn assumed he was with the burglars and blew him away? Would you still be praising Horn then? Because but for the grace of G-d, that's what could have happened. Or would you say it was the cop's fault for being in plainclothes and an unmarked car?

 

 

[taters]

YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[edge51]

I have read all of these gun and self defense threads.

 

I am a retired parole/probation agent in Minnesota. When I started in my job a PO in MN was a peace officer authorized to arrest and to carry a hand gun. MN is still a state that allows private carry.

 

I have arrested and jailed many parole/probation violators. I have never carried a gun.

 

My reason is simple, even if threatened I doubt that I would pull the trigger. It is just not in me to kill another human being. I have fought with many and subdued most. I know if I pulled a gun that my target would most likely have taken it from me and used it on me.

 

It is incredible hard to kill another human being.

 

I am not sure that I can applaud JOe Horn. I guess I would hope that more would find it difficult to kill as I do.

[Alan D]

I think Horn made some stupid and wrong headed moves but they were not illegal. Apparently the Grand Jury thought the same.

 

The really stupid act here was the decision to break into a guys house and steal his stuff. They paid a pretty big price for being stupid and doing stupid things.

 

BINGO!

[Pilgrim]

Why is it a disgrace? I have run out of patience with the "porportionality" argument. Crime should be a high-risk occupation, and to die during the commission of a felony ought to be a potential result considered by the perp as a a risk.

 

If you don't know about the Dalton gang and Coffeeville, Kansas, look it up. That's how it ought to be. Courts ought to get to try the survivors.

 

Pilgrim

[Paul_Burkett]

Perhaps he should have just turned his television up real loud or done a suduko and then play surprised when the neighbors come home and tell him that someone had robbed their house. I mean, why would anyone want to get involved in a neighbors affairs, isn't that just being nosy or a busy body, that's what insurance is for anyway.

 

Now, let's all take a field trip over to Francois's "45" thread and tell him we are sorry for getting involved in his daughter's personal problem and let someone else do what we pay someone else to do. After all isn't that what neighbors are supposed to do?

 

Here is a great song written by Phil Ochs back in the late '60's.

 

Looking out the window, there's a woman being grabbed,

she's being dragged into the bushes, and now she's being stabbed.

Oh should we call the police and tell them of this shame,

but monopoly is so much fun, I'd hate to blow a game.

And we wouldn't ever enter in, for anybody, outside of a close circle of friends.

 

Did I say someone else too many times?

[Lawman]

Perhaps he should have just turned his television up real loud or done a suduko and then play surprised when the neighbors come home and tell him that someone had robbed their house. I mean, why would anyone want to get involved in a neighbors affairs, isn't that just being nosy or a busy body, that's what insurance is for anyway.

 

Now, let's all take a field trip over to Francois's "45" thread and tell him we are sorry for getting involved in his daughter's personal problem and let someone else do what we pay someone else to do. After all isn't that what neighbors are supposed to do?

 

Here is a great song written by Phil Ochs back in the late '60's.

 

Looking out the window, there's a woman being grabbed,

she's being dragged into the bushes, and now she's being stabbed.

Oh should we call the police and tell them of this shame,

but monopoly is so much fun, I'd hate to blow a game.

And we wouldn't ever enter in, for anybody, outside of a close circle of friends.

 

Did I say someone else too many times?

 

Thanks good neighbor.

[Albert]

Yup. Noting says "freedom to travel" more than being gunned down by a trigger happy neighbor who thinks you don't belong.

 

While I'm not condoning Mr. Horn's actions, nothing says "freedom to travel" like (from the article):

 

. . . Ortiz and Torres were illegal immigrants from Colombia. Torres had been sent to prison for dealing cocaine and was deported in 1999.

 

Again, I'm not defending any actions here but I'll have a real tough time working up much sympathy for someone illegally in this country, dealing drugs and breaking into houses.

 

[Bob Palin]

No gun laws were involved here, a man called the authorities, refused to do what they told him and took it upon himself to go outside and kill two other men - pure, simple, murder.

Bob, without knowing you, or your states laws, I wonder what you might have done in that circumstance.

I can't imagine a simpler situation - I would have stayed in the house and let the cops take care of it.

[Whip]

No gun laws were involved here, a man called the authorities, refused to do what they told him and took it upon himself to go outside and kill two other men - pure, simple, murder.

Bob, without knowing you, or your states laws, I wonder what you might have done in that circumstance.

I can't imagine a simpler situation - I would have stayed in the house and let the cops take care of it.

 

That's because you don't own a gun and you never wanted to be Dirty Harry.

 

Like me..............

 

Whip

[Bob Palin]

I can't imagine a simpler situation - I would have stayed in the house and let the cops take care of it.

That's because you don't own a gun and you never wanted to be Dirty Harry.

 

Like me..............

 

Whip

No, it's because I'm not a murderous psychopath who thinks it is worth killing somebody over property.

[Knifemaker]

Why is it a disgrace? I have run out of patience with the "porportionality" argument. Crime should be a high-risk occupation, and to die during the commission of a felony ought to be a potential result considered by the perp as a a risk.

 

If you don't know about the Dalton gang and Coffeeville, Kansas, look it up. That's how it ought to be. Courts ought to get to try the survivors.

 

Pilgrim

 

 

 

 

+1

 

 

Let's send these thieves to prison...At taxpayers expense...so while they are there thay can add to thier knowledge, the crimes of rape and murder....I am sorry, I forgot that most of these fine upstanding lads get out of prison completely reformed...NOW that is BS....

 

Mr. Horn is an idiot...He got in the middle of something he now probably regrets...Only because he did what most of you would not do... he STOPPED the law breaking thieves. I for one think it is a better day when one less murderer, rapist, and thief is no longer walking the streets our wives, and kids also travel.

 

It's a nice thing that some of you want to reform these law breakers of the worse type even though thay do not want your reforms they want what you have....your lives, money, and property....They can go to school, they can learn, they can get jobs....but no they choose to lead a life of crime...and we need to stop them as best we can.

[Knifemaker]

Originally Posted By: Whip

Originally Posted By: Killer

I can't imagine a simpler situation - I would have stayed in the house and let the cops take care of it.

 

That's because you don't own a gun and you never wanted to be Dirty Harry.

 

Like me..............

 

Whip

No, it's because I'm not a murderous psychopath who thinks it is worth killing somebody over property.

 

 

 

 

Bob, you can draw you line in the sand over property...but that line will continually be erased by the criminal until you no longer can draw your lines....

[Whip]

I can't imagine a simpler situation - I would have stayed in the house and let the cops take care of it.

That's because you don't own a gun and you never wanted to be Dirty Harry.

 

Like me..............

 

Whip

No, it's because I'm not a murderous psychopath who thinks it is worth killing somebody over property.

 

Did you just say that anyone that is willing to kill to protect property is a murderous psychopath?????

 

...or did you say I was a murderous psychopath?????

 

 

Where is that confused emo??????

 

 

 

 

[Paul_Burkett]

1) Broke into our country.

2) Caught dealing drugs.

3) Deported.

4) Broke into our country again.

5) Broke into a persons home and stole the things that he did not pay for.

 

It looks like he was a long time criminal. How long must we endure this pacifism toward criminal behavior?

[E30TECH]

I smoked 2 cigarettes and had a bottle of frappy reading this.

 

You can't buy entertainment like this thread.

 

Good stuff!

[Lawman]

I can't imagine a simpler situation - I would have stayed in the house and let the cops take care of it.

That's because you don't own a gun and you never wanted to be Dirty Harry.

 

Like me..............

 

Whip

No, it's because I'm not a murderous psychopath who thinks it is worth killing somebody over property.

 

Bob,

I'll go even farther than that..I think it is worth killing someone over just to protect my right to own property..

[Bob Palin]

Bob,

I'll go even farther than that..I think it is worth killing someone over just to protect my right to own property..

I know, and you already know what I think about that.

 

Whip, I was really thinking about Dirty Harry and Joe Horn, but if the shoe fits...

[Gregori]

I'm gonna have to say I applaud Mr. Horn's willingness to get involved, and try to PROTECT his neighbor. That's what good neighbors are supposed to do -- look out for one another. I feel sorry for him that he was put in a position where he felt it necessary to defend himself. Most people (even hoodlums) would have STOPPED when confronted by a man bearing a shotgun, not run at him!

 

If the detective on scene had told dispatch he was there, the 911 operator could have told Mr Horn that there was an unmarked car and plainclothes officer present. This wasn't done, so while it's easy to call him a raging maniac endangering the officer, there was no way for him to know (or identify) the officer as such. (And clearly, the officer knew this and acted accordingly.)

 

I admit my bias, as I know for certain I would have done much the same as he did initially. I've gotten involved several times when the authorities seemed to need assistance.

On two separate occasions I have observed an officer chasing a suspect on foot, and joined chase, stopping the perps myself. Another time, a sportbike (being actively pursued by several police cars) was screaming around my neighborhood trying to escape. The second time he came down my street (having already dodged a police cruiser at the end of the block) I walked to the middle of the road carrying a 4x4 held menacingly - the rider crashed when he tried to turn around before reaching me. All three times, the officers thanked me exuberantly, amazed that I was willing to get involved.

 

When it comes to protecting (my own) property: I held two dirtbags at gunpoint (while wearing my bathrobe) one night when I caught them breaking into my garage. Made them lay face down in the dog-pee soaked gravel until the police arrived - and I told them (and the police dispatcher on the phone) that if they tried to get up, I would consider it an act of aggression and shoot them in self defense. The officers who arrived (in force, and in minutes) were sure to identify themselves as police before coming in the yard; I told them I was holstering the gun, and they came in. They verbally verified that I'd put it away, and there was never another mention of it during the rest of the time they were there taking the report (and taking the scum into custody.)

Okay, maybe mentioning the dog-pee is a gratuitous 'heehee' but it still makes me smile every time I think about it.

 

WOULD I have shot them? It's awfully hard to say after the fact, but I certainly think so. I remember positioning myself so that the shot wouldn't hit anything if it went though (or missed) them. Maybe Killer (obviously a misnomer) will think that I was being cold, callous and calculating, but at the time I was simply trying to minimize collateral damage. I didn't get the jitters about the whole thing until about halfway through the police report, and then I couldn't sleep the rest of the night.

 

What I CAN say for certain, is that I'm really glad I don't live in City Heights any longer. (That's a less-than-stellar part of San Diego, where ALL of the above happened.)

[Lawman]

I'm gonna have to say I applaud Mr. Horn's willingness to get involved, and try to PROTECT his neighbor. That's what good neighbors are supposed to do -- look out for one another. I feel sorry for him that he was put in a position where he felt it necessary to defend himself. Most people (even hoodlums) would have STOPPED when confronted by a man bearing a shotgun, not run at him!

 

If the detective on scene had told dispatch he was there, the 911 operator could have told Mr Horn that there was an unmarked car and plainclothes officer present. This wasn't done, so while it's easy to call him a raging maniac endangering the officer, there was no way for him to know (or identify) the officer as such. (And clearly, the officer knew this and acted accordingly.)

 

I admit my bias, as I know for certain I would have done much the same as he did initially. I've gotten involved several times when the authorities seemed to need assistance.

On two separate occasions I have observed an officer chasing a suspect on foot, and joined chase, stopping the perps myself. Another time, a sportbike (being actively pursued by several police cars) was screaming around my neighborhood trying to escape. The second time he came down my street (having already dodged a police cruiser at the end of the block) I walked to the middle of the road carrying a 4x4 held menacingly - the rider crashed when he tried to turn around before reaching me. All three times, the officers thanked me exuberantly, amazed that I was willing to get involved.

 

When it comes to protecting (my own) property: I held two dirtbags at gunpoint (while wearing my bathrobe) one night when I caught them breaking into my garage. Made them lay face down in the dog-pee soaked gravel until the police arrived - and I told them (and the police dispatcher on the phone) that if they tried to get up, I would consider it an act of aggression and shoot them in self defense. The officers who arrived (in force, and in minutes) were sure to identify themselves as police before coming in the yard; I told them I was holstering the gun, and they came in. They verbally verified that I'd put it away, and there was never another mention of it during the rest of the time they were there taking the report (and taking the scum into custody.)

Okay, maybe mentioning the dog-pee is a gratuitous 'heehee' but it still makes me smile every time I think about it.

 

WOULD I have shot them? It's awfully hard to say after the fact, but I certainly think so. I remember positioning myself so that the shot wouldn't hit anything if it went though (or missed) them. Maybe Killer (obviously a misnomer) will think that I was being cold, callous and calculating, but at the time I was simply trying to minimize collateral damage. I didn't get the jitters about the whole thing until about halfway through the police report, and then I couldn't sleep the rest of the night.

 

What I CAN say for certain, is that I'm really glad I don't live in City Heights any longer. (That's a less-than-stellar part of San Diego, where ALL of the above happened.)

 

As a police officer for many years, parhaps way too many, I will tell you I appreciate folks like you and my job would be easier and society would be better off if more folks were like you...Thanks..

[Pilgrim]

Yes to that, plus this: the point is not theft of property or whether or not someone should die over property, but that those clowns and waaay too many like them are simply unwilling to let others live in the peaceful, orderly society most of us want, if not for ourselves, then for our families. I don't mean one where nobody spits on the sidewalk or jaywalks or speeds, but one where you can walk out of your house or park your car and not wonder if what you've earned will still be there when you return. Or wonder if you should walk down a street at night or back to your car in the mall parking lot after dark. Or to leave your loved ones home alone, or fear for your children because they want to go to the park alone in the middle of the day. Or walk to school by themselves.

 

The actions of people such as those two whom Mr. Horn sent to their maker have an impact that extends far beyond the immediate victim. Societies develop for a lot of reasons and one of them is to gain a mutually-assured sense of security. Every crime like that diminishes our sense of security. Do you doubt that Mr. Horn and his neighbors would have felt less safe in their persons and property after the burglary? And that, reported as a whole, a large number of burglaries in town . . . well, never mind. If you don't get it, explanations from me will not make things any clearer. But I'll bet Francois gets it.

 

I reiterate: crime should be a high-risk occupation and Mr. Horn made it so for them. He committed, not a murder, but a public service.

 

Pilgrim

[Fugu]

Sometime the cops do that. It's called tactics. It's what professional, trained law enforcement officers do when they feel it's appropriate for the situation.

 

That isn't the point. He didn't know there was a cop present. As far as he knew, he was alone.

 

I think it's interesting that the trained police officer who was on the scene when Horn came out of his house didn't feel that the situation presented the need to go blasting the men in the back with a shotgun. But of course, Horn knew better than a trained police officer, right?

 

Of course the detective didn't fire, he was hiding in his car across the street. HE wasn't in danger because the men were not running towards HIM.

 

 

 

What if that detective got out of the car and Horn assumed he was with the burglars and blew him away?

 

Don't muddy the waters further with your what if BS.

 

Would you still be praising Horn then?

 

Where have I praised him?

 

Because but for the grace of G-d, that's what could have happened. Or would you say it was the cop's fault for being in plainclothes and an unmarked car?

 

What if blah blah. You've lost this argument from every angle so now you're trying a new what if game. I'm not playing.

 

[Dave McReynolds]

When it comes to protecting (my own) property: I held two dirtbags at gunpoint (while wearing my bathrobe) one night when I caught them breaking into my garage. Made them lay face down in the dog-pee soaked gravel until the police arrived - and I told them (and the police dispatcher on the phone) that if they tried to get up, I would consider it an act of aggression and shoot them in self defense. The officers who arrived (in force, and in minutes) were sure to identify themselves as police before coming in the yard; I told them I was holstering the gun, and they came in. They verbally verified that I'd put it away, and there was never another mention of it during the rest of the time they were there taking the report (and taking the scum into custody.)

 

This has always seemed to be a very pivotal point to me, where a lot of things could go wrong. I've sometimes wondered what would happen if I were holding intruders at gunpoint inside my home when the police drove up. If I were a policeman, I wouldn't want to come into my house with me holding a gun on someone, I don't want to get shot by a policeman, but I also don't want to put my gun down too soon and have it taken by an intruder or have them pick that moment to bolt.

 

As for the underlying issues in the OP, I haven't commented, since it is not my business to second-guess the grand jury. I also wouldn't have commented if the decision had gone the other way.

[Bob Palin]

As for the underlying issues in the OP, I haven't commented, since it is not my business to second-guess the grand jury.

How do you figure that Dave? It's always your duty to question all branches of government, otherwise they go off and do what they want instead of what you want.

[Dave McReynolds]

How do you figure that Dave? It's always your duty to question all branches of government, otherwise they go off and do what they want instead of what you want.

 

I guess I figure that a grand jury, composed of my peers from my community, are less a "branch of government" than the IRS, say.

[smiller]

This has always seemed to be a very pivotal point to me, where a lot of things could go wrong. I've sometimes wondered what would happen if I were holding intruders at gunpoint inside my home when the police drove up. If I were a policeman, I wouldn't want to come into my house with me holding a gun on someone, I don't want to get shot by a policeman, but I also don't want to put my gun down too soon and have it taken by an intruder or have them pick that moment to bolt.

Well there's always the other option, one which it would seem that many here would choose... don't employ a weapon at all and hope that they choose not to hurt you.

[tallman]

"I've got you Babe"

 

But, unlike the movie, no one here will change the ending.

Or their mind.

[smiller]

That joke's been used once already in the thread... hmmm...

[Boffin]

I agree.

 

As this thread has gone from a discussion, which we wish to encourage, to an argument, which is counter to our ethos, it is time to shut it down.

 

Andy