"Childlessness emerges as an ideal lifestyle"

[chrisolson]

...

 

Case in point: with two kids, Mensa member David is, statistically speaking, below the replacement level, which I believe is something like 2.1 in the US. Similarly, many of the people I went to grad school and/or work with (I don't know their IQ's, but I'd bet they're well above average) are rapidly approaching the end of their fertile years with no kids in sight.

A high percentage of the people I know on this board are below the replacement level.

 

I wonder if that makes them smart ... must be, 'cause I'm gonna include myself ... one child and that's all there ever will be.

[David]

Now that thar is funny. Hee haw.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

A high percentage of the people I know on this board are below the replacement level.

 

I wonder if that makes them smart ...

 

I think this is how people get offended: they think that they're being called stupid if (and possibly because) they have a large family. That's not at all the case.

 

I recall seeing a study of family size among immigrants to the US. The upshot was that first-generation family size approximated the "ideal" family size in the ancestral country but that within 2 generations, family size more closely approximated the average US family size. (If anybody can find this study or a similar one on the same topic, please post a link.) Assuming that the IQ of the great-grandchildren wasn't far off, this would seem to suggest a cultural influence on family size rather than a genetic or IQ-related basis.

 

I'd be very interested in seeing such a study. FWIW I don't mean to suggest that intelligence is the only (perhaps not even the main) factor in fertility rate, but I don't think it can be easily dismissed.

 

Childless couples, who later have children are qualified to address both lifestyles.

 

The article I linked to earlier suggests that couples who have children late in life tend to be less happy about it than couples who have children earlier in their adult life; the late-blooming parents have many years of adult leisure and fulfillment against which to compare the experience of parenthood (in addition, perhaps, to being older and more easily exhausted while their kids are still high-maintenance).

 

[russell_bynum]

The article I linked to earlier suggests that couples who have children late in life tend to be less happy about it than couples who have children earlier in their adult life; the late-blooming parents have many years of adult leisure and fulfillment against which to compare the experience of parenthood (in addition, perhaps, to being older and more easily exhausted while their kids are still high-maintenance).

 

The flipside of that is you're generally going to be more financially stable and have most of your major relationship issues worked out if you wait, so that should make it easier to deal with the added stress and demands.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I hope.

 

[Quinn]

So when do you think that the human species quit reproducing based on survival traits? I mean, three hundred years ago I never would have survived long enough to have childred. I would've died from asthma or walked into a pit because my parents couldn't afford glasses for their twelve children. Modern medicine and social services have allowed a lot of bad genes to reproduce on an equal footing with good genes. You could be nasty and note that alcohol now allows crazy and ugly people to pass on their traits as well.

 

To answer my original question, it began when humans quit compeating with other species and began compeating only with itself. From the same evolutionary path that gave us peacocks, red butt monkeys, and curley horned rams we get women with larger breasts and less hairy men.

 

 

[Dave McReynolds]

The flipside of that is you're generally going to be more financially stable and have most of your major relationship issues worked out if you wait, so that should make it easier to deal with the added stress and demands.

 

Maybe not. According to this article, "The highest rate of divorce in the 2001 survey was 41 percent for men who were then between the ages of 50 to 59, and 39 percent for women in the same age group."

 

Being (ahem) sort of an expert on the subject, it has always appeared to me that there are two main causes of divorce: incompatibility issues in the early years of marriage, and itchy feet issues that arise after people have been married 10 or more years. From my own experience and observing others, it seems that most of the marriages that survive the initial incompatibilites last until a degree of independence is obtained, when there is another round of divorces, and most that last through that period probably last until the death of one or the other partners.

[VinnyR11]

...

On another note, people get awfully sensitive about the broad brush, to the point where they seem to dispute the basic truth of what is said. In this case, yes, there are smart folks out there (such as Vinny's friend's boss) with more kids than they can count, and dumb ones who were somehow smart enough to control their family size. But the basic truth is that overall, smart folks tend to have fewer kids. For "smart," you can use IQ, or substitute some other proxy, such as income or education, and the trend will be basically the same.

 

You're right. Good "frickin'" points.

 

Actually, I don't dispute the fact that people who are more financially able and better educated are having less kids. That's true. Truth be told, I think it's a good topic.

 

What I don't like is where society often takes these topics over time. I try to be a canary in the coal mine when it comes to these types of generalities. We need counter arguments to broad-brush statements because they often lead down a very slippery slope towards building generalized class differences. We're becoming more and more of a broad brush society, so I'm hoping an opposing view now and then can help focus the discussion.

 

[russell_bynum]

The flipside of that is you're generally going to be more financially stable and have most of your major relationship issues worked out if you wait, so that should make it easier to deal with the added stress and demands.

 

Maybe not. According to this article, "The highest rate of divorce in the 2001 survey was 41 percent for men who were then between the ages of 50 to 59, and 39 percent for women in the same age group."

 

Being (ahem) sort of an expert on the subject, it has always appeared to me that there are two main causes of divorce: incompatibility issues in the early years of marriage, and itchy feet issues that arise after people have been married 10 or more years. From my own experience and observing others, it seems that most of the marriages that survive the initial incompatibilites last until a degree of independence is obtained, when there is another round of divorces, and most that last through that period probably last until the death of one or the other partners.

 

Certainly it's not all smooth sailing after the initial period, but I know in our case, life is just a whole bunch easier now after 11 years of marriage than it was in the first 0-3 years. Finances are always an issue, but much less so now that we've both got real jobs and have some idea of where our career is going. We've learned how to work together on stuff...and when not to work together.

 

 

[Matts_12GS]

The flipside of that is you're generally going to be more financially stable and have most of your major relationship issues worked out if you wait, so that should make it easier to deal with the added stress and demands.

 

Well, from my experiences..

We did a lot of things when we were newlyweds. Travelled, partied, went places, did stuff, hung out in bars, went abroad, bought boats and sports cars and generally swung life by the short and curlies for the first 10 years we were together.

 

My son was born just after I turned 38. I was in a good career field, advancing and progressing. I owned a small business and was making money and life was pretty good.

 

Now, 6 years later...

 

-I sold that business, started another one and sold it too.

-I have bought/traded/sold/toyed with a good dozen motorcycles.

-My wife learned to ride and she and I will go for rides with our son riding behind me as she follows.

-I left one job for a greater opportunity with better earnings and advancement potential.

 

Bottom line, I'm stressed about things but satisfied with my life and my relationships with my family and with the extended family. We ride, we play, we do family stuff and live in a bigger house and have nicer cars then I ever dreamed of.

 

I will second the notion of an earlier poster; have kids or don't... neither is more virtuous than the other, they're just different.