"Childlessness emerges as an ideal lifestyle"

[JerryMather]

Declining Population in Europe

 

Interesting, play this one out in your mind and ask yourself what the world may look like fifty years from now. What do you come up with?

[Woodie]

That was an interesting read. Thank you.

 

I'm of the mind that this is a temporary crisis. The birth rate should pick up again, targeting the 2.1 level, once the "bubble" (boomers) is mostly gone. I do expect the population level to be significantly lower than it is today.

 

Hopefully, that should lead to a sustainable population level on an economic basis as well as an environmental basis. I guess I'm a glass half full sort of guy.

 

The flexibility vs. socialism assessment is right on the money.

 

Now...2058...what will it look like?

"Cultures" will be dramatically different in those parts of the world with the least changes (Italy, Spain, Korea, England, etc.) The Europe as an Attraction theme is interesting, and will probably play out in certain areas. Smaller cities across all of Europe, more likely fewer villages. Cities can provide the infrastructure to support the elderly far more effectively than villages. So, across France, England, and especially southern Europe, the villages will disappear.

 

USofA: I wonder. I suspect that population growth will slow over the next 20 years, as overall planetary growth slows. The flexibility of the US system means that people can choose to leave here as well. Hopefully, the decline here will be more gradual, so we can adjust to a gentle decline, closing schools, etc. I don't see a huge cultural shift, as the social and economic systems are quite flexible, and responsive.

I predict US population in 2058 will be very close to the current (2008) population.

 

[PRC]

Declining Population in Europe

 

Interesting, play this one out in your mind and ask yourself what the world may look like fifty years from now. What do you come up with?

 

 

Geez, welfare is outa control already. Can only imagine what the unscrupulous and lazy would do. I can see it now...Have a kid..here's your money.....babies landing up in dumpsters or orphanages after the check clears....new car in driveway... The process repeats approximately every 9 months.

 

 

Sorry Woodie, I'm not as good at being a glass half full guy. Wish I was though.

[bakerzdosen]

They picked a bad week for me to argue against it...

 

Maybe I'll have a different opinion in 17 years 51 weeks.

[Whip]

They picked a bad week for me to argue against it...

 

Maybe I'll have a different opinion in 17 years 51 weeks.

 

 

ROTFLMAO

 

Where is that little emo when you need him....

[Quinn]

In the US, I would predict that we'll be speaking Spanish and immigration-legal and illegal- will be filling in the holes at ever higher levels and ever increasing numbers until the country has gone down far enough to elimitate the incentive to come here. The government and higher levels of corporate America will continue to fiddle while the middle and lower levels of society are still seen as replaceable units. I read somewhere that the X-generation (maybe) was going to be the first generation that didn't do better economically than their parents. I wonder how true that still is.

 

A very good article. The only thing not covered was that it now takes fewer people to produce the same amount of work. If all the work is done by half the people, then what happens to the other half? Let them starve? Create work for them? Put them on the dole? Breed less of them?

 

 

[Twisties]

speaking Spanish and immigration-legal and illegal- will be filling in the holes at ever higher levels and ever increasing numbers until the country has gone down

 

I really think the automatic association of Spanish speaking and country of origin status with the U.S. going down is lame and well, just plain offensively arrogant.

 

It presumes that those born here or that speak English are somehow better than others. Did you really mean that?

 

Jan

[Quinn]

I really think the automatic association of Spanish speaking and country of origin status with the U.S. going down is lame and well, just plain offensively arrogant.

 

It presumes that those born here or that speak English are somehow better than others. Did you really mean that?

 

Jan

 

 

I'm sorry if I'm "arrogant" in that I've noticed that the bi-ligual of choice is Spanish--at least in my part of the elephant.

 

Does my speaking English make be "better than others"? Your words, not mine. Not being able to speak Spanish will put me at a disadvantage in another 50 years, but not as much as being dead will. Reality is that I'll be working for someone named Britney who has a tatoo and piercings if I stay in corporate America much longer. I'll also have to learn Spanish.

 

My point is: We won't stop immigration from less fortunate places until they are on a par with us. And I don't think it's because the southern hemisphere will improve that much.

 

Other point was that those poor, downtrodden undocumented workers will not stay content to remain on the bottom or underground segment of society. Their kids are already getting education and will move up out of the fast food, farming, and construction industry. The older European migration of the 1900 will be replaced by the South American.

 

Please let me know how I've further offended you.

 

 

[Twisties]

Please let me know how I've further offended you.

 

You haven't. That's the level of discussion I would hope we could have here.

 

Jan

[Kitsap]

Have we, the U.S., ever gone to the extent of incorporating the languages of immigrants into "our" society as we have Spanish? I find it irritating the extent we're willing to go to accommodate the Spanish speaking public. This luxury was not present for either my parents or my wife for that matter when she arrived here. Millions of immigrants from places other than Mexico managed to "melt" in so be damned all this bilingual crap.

 

Rant over.

[KDeline]

Have we, the U.S., ever gone to the extent of incorporating the languages of immigrants into "our" society as we have Spanish? I find it irritating the extent we're willing to go to accommodate the Spanish speaking public. This luxury was not present for either my parents or my wife for that matter when she arrived here. Millions of immigrants from places other than Mexico managed to "melt" in so be damned all this bilingual crap.

 

Rant over.

 

 

It's called American greed. Lots of them come in and they spend so to get their money we cater. Pisses me off to. As to the topic I would like to see a decline, IMHO this planet and country is to crowded now, other countries can't even feed their masses.

[Twisties]

What do you consider to be, "the extent we're willing to go to accommodate the Spanish speaking public"? What are the specifics you find irritating?

 

Why do you find this irritating?

 

Jan

 

[Kitsap]

What do you consider to be, "the extent we're willing to go to accommodate the Spanish speaking public"? What are the specifics you find irritating?

 

Why do you find this irritating?

 

Jan

 

More government and private jobs require a proficiency in Spanish to gain employment. More and more product labels, ATM machines, automated phone services and others have become bilingual.

 

It ticks off my grandmother, she among nearly a quarter of the population of Scandinavia over the last century came here for a better life. Part of the deal was learning to be a member of society, learning English. We did not loose our heritage by learning English but simply became part of something bigger.

 

It has for me come to the extent that I am being discriminated against because I don’t speak Spanish in my little North West town; That is wrong.

 

[Kitsap]

What do you consider to be, "the extent we're willing to go to accommodate the Spanish speaking public"? What are the specifics you find irritating?

 

Why do you find this irritating?

 

Jan

 

We have a small store that carries exclusively products from Mexico. If you don't speak Spanish you are a "foreigner" and unwelcome. Yes, you are served but hurry up and get the hell out is the message.

[David]

So what? Don't go to that store.

[Twisties]

I love going to el Rancho Market. I'll be the only non-Hispanic in there and not too many customers speak English, but they all try to help. The ones that speak English will go to any length to help me find what I need. I got this Rick Bayless cookbook and he calls for all kinds of stuff that I can only find there. It's a little corner market, but just full of things I've never heard of and tons of fun.

 

The guy who runs the cafeteria in the bldg where I work is now a U.S. Citizen, but is an immigrant from the Guadalahara area. His wife was born in the US of Hispanic parents and speaks English as a first language. She does not consider herself Hispanic, she says she is "American". They listen to the same radio stations I do, he likes bikes, they're kids are fun, and I get great Mexican food on Tuesdays and Thursdays (he does Italian on Mondays, soup and sandwich on Wednesdays, and something awful on Fridays (fish sticks, clam chowder... yuck). I like speaking Spanish with him. He loves teaching me. It's fun. I consider them friends.

 

I can go on and on.

 

I'm really sorry you have this bad experience at this shop, but it is not typical of what I see around here at all.

 

Jan

[bakerzdosen]

We have a small store that carries exclusively products from Mexico. If you don't speak Spanish you are a "foreigner" and unwelcome. Yes, you are served but hurry up and get the hell out is the message.

I've been to a place like that before too, except the products are typically Cuban.

 

It's called Miami.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Take the trouble to learn a few words or phrases in Spanish. It isn't that hard to do and it goes a long way toward making you welcome. Might wish to learn a little about the culture as you go.

 

I grew up near Union City, NJ which had one of the largest Cuban populations outside of Cuba. First wave of immigrants were fleeing Batista, second wave came after Castro. My best friend when I was 9 or 10 was a kid named Roberto Mendez. He spoke broken English but quickly learned his way to American slang, his parents spoke only Spanish (I spent many an evening in their home). They were delighted to teach me.

[bakerzdosen]

Yeah, I forgot to mention that. I've spent probably three years of my life in one Latin American country or another and have taught a few Unix and database system administration classes in Spanish, so I worry more about my accent than vocabulary at this point. I also have an undergrad degree in German.

 

My point is, there are pockets of different cultures all over the place. I remember my first time out of the country when I was an exchange student in Germany. We spend the 4th of July on the military base near Heidelberg. I loved just that little slice of home (OK, so it's a big slice) when I was in a foreign country. I don't begrudge others for that same nostalgia or familiarity. I also know (when in a foreign country) how much slack I give others who are trying to speak to me in VERY broken English. It's nice to have people trying to learn more about you and your culture. Do I think that state/public services should be offered in Spanish as well as English? Nope. But I think if you're going to a Latin (or Polish, or Italian, or Japanese, or Chinese, or French, or Korean, or Thai etc) market, you're on their territory, and you should do your best to respect their customs.

 

I have no idea how we got so far off topic, but sorry for my part in it...

[hopz]

I am proud to be an American. I joined the military during a war. I served overseas for three years. I fly the flag. My ancestor arrived here in 1684 as an indentured servant and those who followed him have done the best they can.

 

I do not care if you are Mexican, Vietnamese or Balkan... if you come here to work and to make a better life I am all for it. I expect you learn our language, pay our taxes, and contribute to our collective local, state and national well being.

 

Even though our ethnic mix changes with the addition of each new member, I want our essential national character to remain American.

 

I want my grandchildren and theirs to be American, the America with ideals formed in our early history... not some collection of different cultures that insist on retaining their own national identity and resist joining us.

 

If you come to America to become American I am all for it. If you come to take what you can get and yet remain what you were, I resent and resist it.

 

I guess all this makes me a nationalist... I don't mind the label.

[chrisolson]

What do you consider to be, "the extent we're willing to go to accommodate the Spanish speaking public"? What are the specifics you find irritating?

 

Why do you find this irritating?

 

Jan

I appreciate the diverse nature of people who have come to the USA, but I also believe that a common language is the true glue that holds a society together.

 

To actively promote Spanish as a semi "official" language by mandating governmental documements to be offered in both languages (and only Spanish as that second language) is misguided at best and in the long run does not promote or celebrate diversity but creates barriers to a cohesive society based on language.

[Matts_12GS]

I am proud to be an American. I joined the military during a war. I served overseas for three years. I fly the flag. My ancestor arrived here in 1684 as an indentured servant and those who followed him have done the best they can.

 

I do not care if you are Mexican, Vietnamese or Balkan... if you come here to work and to make a better life I am all for it. I expect you learn our language, pay our taxes, and contribute to our collective local, state and national well being.

 

Even though our ethnic mix changes with the addition of each new member, I want our essential national character to remain American.

 

I want my grandchildren and theirs to be American, the America with ideals formed in our early history... not some collection of different cultures that insist on retaining their own national identity and resist joining us.

 

If you come to America to become American I am all for it. If you come to take what you can get and yet remain what you were, I resent and resist it.

 

I guess all this makes me a nationalist... I don't mind the label.

 

+1

 

What pisses me off is the silliness of having to provide forms/documents for official government transactions in different languages.

 

If you're here to visit, then extend the same courtesy and learn some phrases.

 

If you're here to work, learn at least the vernacular of your job and some phrases to get by.

 

If you're here to live, learn the language and incorporate our culture into yours since you CHOSE to come here.

 

I understand why Lowe's, Home Depot and Wally World have so many signs in spanish, but I don't like it and as such, will only go there when I absolutely can't get what I need elsewhere.

 

I'm ok with being a nationalist too.

[BadAdam]

So back on point, Who is planning to have some more kids?

 

I'll do my part if you can help me procure an additional 4 wives from the latest Victoria's Secret catalog.

[hopz]

For what it is worth, probably not very much, historians tell us that it was not all that long ago... about 100 years, that children were a nuisance, sort of a problem, and were often considered just a labor source.

 

Since then due to numerous societal forces they have become the center of the family, and if you live where we do it is a social and cultural norm to pop out as many as you can. It apparently is your duty to give a vehicle for those souls waiting up there for a physical conveyance.

 

It troubles me to see young mothers who are considered "breeders"....in this culture.

 

I worry about that.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

For what it is worth, probably not very much, historians tell us that it was not all that long ago... about 100 years, that children were a nuisance, sort of a problem, and were often considered just a labor source.

 

Interesting timing:

 

True or False: Having Kids Makes You Happy

[smiller]

Interesting timing:

 

True or False: Having Kids Makes You Happy

That is an unusually honest and insightful article.

[russell_bynum]

Interesting timing:

 

True or False: Having Kids Makes You Happy

That is an unusually honest and insightful article.

 

I've always found it particularly annoying that our society expects it. Like if you don't want to immediately have 2.5 kids, there's something wrong with you.

 

Get married and as soon as you're back from the honeymoon, people are asking when you're having kids. If you do like we did, and wait quite a while, it just gets worse and worse.

 

Personally, I don't care one way or another. Have kids or don't. If you want kids, do your best to take care of them and raise them well...and don't look down your nose at the childless people as if they were leppers or something. And if you don't want kids, that's cool too, but don't pretend you're somehow superior because of it.

 

As for who's happier....I think that's way too complicated a question. In general, the things that go along with raising kids (increased stress, increased responsibility, less free time, tighter financial constraints, etc) do not make for a happier person. But I can also see how you'd get a greater sense of accomplishment and purpose, which isn't a "woohoo!!!" type of happy, but it is certainly a nice feeling.

[smiller]

Yeah, yeah Russell, say whatever you want... you just don't know what a dreadful mistake you've made...

[motoguy128]

Anyone seen that movie "idiocriscy"?

 

But seriously... I have concerns that we will start to lose some of the diversity in the world. We have already lost some of it as cultures integrate, and capitalism has spread American ideals and culture around the world. I suppose if you step back and consider why the culture of Those of european descent is dominant, rather than Asian or Hispanic cultures, is simply a matter of colonialism and expansion dating as far back af the well... the early empires in Europe. Is it "fair" that most European languages are influenced by Latin? Equally, is it right that English is the only offiical language in the US?

 

However, I think that a balance of immigration allowing equal opportunity to other regions around the world should be allowed. For every illegal that sneaks into the country, perhaps someone from India, China, Turkey, Africa, will be denied an oppotunity.

 

I don't think that someone should be looked down upon for choosing not to have children. Although I think ironically, that someone intellegent enough to make a rational decision not ot have children is probably likely to be a very responsible, and giving parent, compared to a teenager that Oops... got pregnant. So it's a missed opportinity for a child to grow up in a healthy environment.

[motoguy128]

For what it is worth, probably not very much, historians tell us that it was not all that long ago... about 100 years, that children were a nuisance, sort of a problem, and were often considered just a labor source.

 

Interesting timing:

 

True or False: Having Kids Makes You Happy

 

I wonder if the studies were normalized for economic standing. I suspenct, perhaps wrongly, but that childless parents are more commonly 2 income households in the upper 10% economically. I think much of the stress of having children is having too many children or not having enough money to support them. Perhaps it's the expectations to provide " The best of everything". that create the stress... although that in itself means that having children is more stessful.

 

Very interesting.... since my wife and I are just about to start trying. We were only practicing for the first year. Part of me looks forward ot being a parent, while another part of me will miss the freedom of just enjoying each others company. While on our motorcycle trip this week we both realized this could be the last long trip we take together and I'll be most like taking solo trips in the future for a few years. I guess since I actually enjoy spending time with my wife, I'm not sure if I'll enjoy touring by myself like I did when I was single.

[leikam]

And if you don't want kids, that's cool too, but don't pretend you're somehow superior because of it.

 

A couple years ago I ran across this site which is an odd sort of support group for people who don't want to have children. I never knew that the decision to not have children was a "lifestyle".

 

A friend of mine says that you can have kids and pets or furniture. I guess the "childfree" among us will just enjoy our designer sofas while drinking martinis and having adult discussions. It might be shallow and vain, but one must do something with all this leisure time. Another day of riding? Oh, why not...

[dogboy11]

I live in Texas and I am kind of in between .... I don't mind learning some phrases and communicating with people... but when it comes to the point that you feel like you are irritating them because they don't know english and you don't know spanish then that's when it bugs me.

 

 

DB

[dogboy11]

Has anyone seen the movie Idiocracy ? Terrible movie but it makes a point that I have been making for years .... the intelligent people in the world are not having children or only having 1 or 2 max. However, the stu ... er, sorry .."undereducated" people are pushing out kids left and right. What is this going to do to our society in the future?

 

 

DB

[David]

That was wonderfully helpful and thoughtful. Thanks much.

 

--signed, a Mensa member with kids

[ghaverkamp]

--signed, a Mensa member with kids

 

Apparently, they'll let anybody in.

[David]

Get back to preparing for the bar exam. And that doesn't mean swigging.

[ghaverkamp]

Get back to preparing for the bar exam. And that doesn't mean swigging.

 

As a non-Mensa member, I find the distinctions confusing.

[KDeline]

That was wonderfully helpful and thoughtful. Thanks much.

 

--signed, a Mensa member with kids

 

 

Come on, he's right. High percentage of poor, uneducated are belting them out. Who are we sending relief to? If you lived in a country with no food, water, living in poverty, belly bloated because you are hungry, would you have had kids? They do have a choice.

[David]

He's right, eh? He painted with an idiotically broad brush WITHOUT QUALIFICATION OR NUANCE. And he's going to school us on intelligence? That's rich.

 

Try seeing the world in shades of gray.

[Whip]

the intelligent people in the world are not having children or only having 1 or 2 max. However, the stu ... er, sorry .."undereducated" people are pushing out kids left and right. What is this going to do to our society in the future?

 

 

 

Wow!!!!!!

 

Old thought....bad result.....

 

Eugenics

 

 

[SeanC]

Is it "fair" that most European languages are influenced by Latin? Equally, is it right that English is the only official language in the US?

Well, Latin was a European language, spoken by the most influential Europeans of the time, so the fact it influenced other European languages seems unavoidable. But while Latin was the official language of the Roman Empire, English is not the official language of the American Empire. Nor should it be. Officialdom killed Latin, as it's killing French and a number of other centrally controlled and mandated languages. A government blessing would be like a funeral shroud to our language, which, in its current state, is more like a quilt onto which the patchwork of other languages is sewn. It's too young, too healthy and thriving, to start preparing its burial rites. Let's keep it that way.

[VinnyR11]

That was wonderfully helpful and thoughtful. Thanks much.

 

--signed, a Mensa member with kids

 

I think you spelled "Mensa" wrong.

[VinnyR11]

Has anyone seen the movie Idiocracy ? Terrible movie but it makes a point that I have been making for years .... the intelligent people in the world are not having children or only having 1 or 2 max. However, the stu ... er, sorry .."undereducated" people are pushing out kids left and right. What is this going to do to our society in the future?

 

 

DB

 

Geeeez, it's a good thing I stopped at 3. That should put me in the slightly dumb category.

 

What really shocks me is that my friend's boss, and CEO of his company, has NINE...yes 9 (!) kids.

I always thought he was a bit of a brainiac becuase he has his undergrad with honors from MIT and a Harvard MBA, but I guess I was wrong.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

the intelligent people in the world are not having children or only having 1 or 2 max. However, the stu ... er, sorry .."undereducated" people are pushing out kids left and right. What is this going to do to our society in the future?

 

 

 

Wow!!!!!!

 

Old thought....bad result.....

 

Eugenics

 

 

Eugenics is about deliberate attempts to improve a breed (in this case, humans) through external intervention.

 

One need not be an advocate of eugenics to observe a dysgenic trend.

 

On another note, people get awfully sensitive about the broad brush, to the point where they seem to dispute the basic truth of what is said. In this case, yes, there are smart folks out there (such as Vinny's friend's boss) with more kids than they can count, and dumb ones who were somehow smart enough to control their family size. But the basic truth is that overall, smart folks tend to have fewer kids. For "smart," you can use IQ, or substitute some other proxy, such as income or education, and the trend will be basically the same.

 

Case in point: with two kids, Mensa member David is, statistically speaking, below the replacement level, which I believe is something like 2.1 in the US. Similarly, many of the people I went to grad school and/or work with (I don't know their IQ's, but I'd bet they're well above average) are rapidly approaching the end of their fertile years with no kids in sight.

[hopz]

Don't breed 'em if you can't feed 'em....

[leikam]

But the basic truth is that overall, smart folks tend to have fewer kids. For "smart," you can use IQ, or substitute some other proxy, such as income or education, and the trend will be basically the same.

 

I recall seeing a study of family size among immigrants to the US. The upshot was that first-generation family size approximated the "ideal" family size in the ancestral country but that within 2 generations, family size more closely approximated the average US family size. (If anybody can find this study or a similar one on the same topic, please post a link.) Assuming that the IQ of the great-grandchildren wasn't far off, this would seem to suggest a cultural influence on family size rather than a genetic or IQ-related basis.

 

If it were universally true that smart people had fewer children, then this trend would have been affecting humanity over the last million years or so. Over that time, a lot of important evolutionary changes have happened; surely if this is a universal trend, we are already less intelligent than our ancestors. In fact, after tens of thousands of generations, wouldn't we already be in the "idiocracy" world? Perhaps we're just too dim witted to realize it.

 

In socio-economic conditions quite different than those common in the developed world, having a large family may in fact be a smart choice. Think ready labor, inter-familial marriage ties and increased security in old age. Add in high infant mortality and more births take on a different look than in the western world where only care in old age really resonates.

 

The dysgenic worry is only one part of what gets painted with that broad brush; the other damaging thing is the assumption that the developed world is full of smart people and the rest of the world is full of stupid people. Could it be that there are plenty of smart people in underdeveloped parts of the world and that one concern is that "they" are the future and "we" are losing influence?

[tallman]

That was wonderfully helpful and thoughtful. Thanks much.

 

--signed, a Mensa member with kids

 

I went to a Hotel where there were two meetings the same evening.

I went to the Mensa meeting, but didn't join.

Everyone thought they were smarter than me.

So I went to the Florida Skyliners (a Social Club for Tall People) meeting and had a blast.

In the end I passed on both.

I know where I fall in both areas w/out the secret handshake.

 

Happiness is a relative concept.

So, people can't know what it means for someone else to be happy.

I'm happy to have had the opportunity to raise our children.

And, I'm happy that some people choose not to do so, for whatever reason.

I know I'm happier for my choice.

I find it strange that someone w/out children would want to attempt to quantify emotions from non-intersecting areas of personal experience.

Ideals are subject to change, happiness is relative, but neither can measure up to the love of a parent for their child.

Childless couples, who later have children are qualified to address both lifestyles.

Couples who choose not to have children can't speak from personal experience about raising children.

 

Best wishes to both.

[Woodie]

If it were universally true that smart people had fewer children, then this trend would have been affecting humanity over the last million years or so.

I must disagree. Prior to the 1960s, (before MY time ), there was no reliable birth control mechanisms, other then abstention. In addition, the economic/survival forces of an agrarian economy (also referred to as "developing" nations) rewarded large families.

 

 

[smiller]

Reasonably effective contraceptive methods (spermicides, etc.) have been available for centuries, in fact millennia, and the IUD has been available since the early 1900's.

[SeanC]

Tim, you need to keep in mind that David's a member of the Tennessee chapter of Mensa, whose motto is "Pickin', Grinnin' and Thinkin' 'Bout Stuff." I saw some of the questions from the entrance exam:

 

"Squeal like a pig!" Ernie said to Jethro. "Squeal, SQUEEEEAL!"

 

In the above sentence, Ernie has A) used a metaphor, B) uttered a simile or C) thinks Jethro has a purdy mouth.