This left me in tears..

[Dave McReynolds]

I see your point, Bheckel.

 

To simplify, if there were only male veterans, the male suicide rate would have to be equal to the suicide rate for veterans taken as a whole. The more the male suicide rate diverges from the overall suicide rate, the smaller the population of males has to be compared to the overall population. If the overall suicide rate were 10%, and the male suicide rate were 100%, then males could represent no more than 10% of the population. If the overall suicide rate were 10%, and the male suicide rate were zero, then males could represent no more than 90% of the population.

 

If I can understand that, as a dumb CPA, it seems like a pretty blatant error to include in a published piece by a national news organization, particularly given that they have been burned before.

 

To quote from CBS's piece where they explained how they arrived at their numbers:

 

"In order to calculate rates of suicide, we needed to find a reputable independent biostatistician. We consulted with several experts from across the country and approached the University of Georgia’s Epidemiology and Biostatistics Department.

 

The acting head of the department, Prof. Steve Rathbun, agreed to do the analysis for CBS News. He did this as a public service entirely free of charge. We choose Prof. Rathbun because of his expertise in statistics and because he had no ties with any federal agency that could pose a conflict of interest in looking at military suicide data. For example, he had no paid relationship with the DoD or the VA.

 

CBS News did not pay Prof. Rathbun, the University of Georgia or any of its employees for the analysis.

 

To avoid bias, a protocol for statistical data analysis was specified to Prof. Rathbun prior to obtaining the data. This protocol included specific questions posed by CBS News like "what is the rate of suicide for veterans versus non-veterans," specification of the statistical model that was to be fit to the data, and the methods for computing age and gender adjusted suicide rates. All subsequent analyses were conducted according to this pre-specified protocol."

 

One would think that if the error were as obvious as it seems, it would have been picked up early on by someone who reviewed Prof Rathbun's work, or by other news media who would like nothing better, I'm sure, than to give CBS another black eye. So my assumption is that there is something in the way the statistics are weighted for age and/or sex that explains this problem. However, that is only an assumption, and I would like to know the explanation, if one exists.

 

On a post by someone else, I'm not so quick to judge a young person who joins the Army or Marines and either finds that they can't cut it or has lingering psychological problems related to combat. I don't think it is any more reasonable to expect a person to know in advance how they will react to Army or Marine training, or to combat, than it is to know how they will react to anything else they haven't experienced.

 

I don't think the answer is to exclude women from training, or to soften the training in any way. Skills of women and men overlap, and while you won't find many women with the personality, interest, or strength for combat, you'll find some, and the ones that qualify shouldn't be excluded. I do think it's a mistake to set some preconceived goal of having, say, 10% of your combat forces be women, and lower the standards until you get there.

[Les is more]

I don't think the answer is to exclude women from training, or to soften the training in any way. Skills of women and men overlap, and while you won't find many women with the personality, interest, or strength for combat, you'll find some, and the ones that qualify shouldn't be excluded. I do think it's a mistake to set some preconceived goal of having, say, 10% of your combat forces be women, and lower the standards until you get there.

 

Brilliantly stated! As a comparison, I've watched some Fire Depts. lower the physical agilities standards in order to allow women to make the grade just for the sake of having a woman on the Dept. All I want to know is whether a Firefighter, male or female, is capable of dragging my Husband's sorry butt out of a burning building. Lowered standards don't raise my confidence levels.

 

Another question I have, which I, admittedly, have not researched is about the numbers of young people who sign up for the military as a last resort. That is, could it be possible that significant numbers come from a place of already being financially and socially bereft, with poor education and dim prospects? From that perspective, the military might look like a great option. Between that and the spin that the recruiters generate, self delusion could be pretty easy to succumb to. It would be pretty simple, in that case to end up in a much worse place than where you started.

 

Also, given the approval of violence in this society (movies, TV, video games,etc.), might the IDEA of going out there to gloriously kill your enemies, be a thrilling prospect to an 18 year old? I'm sure the reality takes quite a bit of the shine off of the apple.

[Quinn]

Leslie,

 

What I remember from my military days was that most of the WAFs were plain looking girls from small towns who didn't want to marry either of the two guys their age. They joined as a way to get out of town and see the world. Soon they were deluged with attention from being outnumbered by all the young, lonely Airmen. Some didn't handle the attention very well. It was a very melodramatic age.

 

Most of the guys were there to avoid the draft. Some of us wanted to bail out of lives and start over. Some were beating minor drug charges. Some had been sold a bill of goods about training and travel. All of us were afraid of dropping out because we were told that the draft board would be notified and we'd be put at the top of their list. Vietnam was very hot at the time.

 

Once you're in, of course, there's no way out. Whatever happens, happens. Noone ever stood up and said, "My recruiter promised that you wouldn't yell at me." or "I'm supposed to be an AFRTS cameraman in Naples, not an MP in Korea." For a while it seems that you walked through a door that was labeled "Your bright future" and ended up in Dante's Inferno. We had two guys out of 300 try to commite suicide over Christmas holiday between Basic and Tech school.

 

It took a while to make your peace with all the new values and some never made the adjustment.

 

 

 

 

[Matts_12GS]

It took a while to make your peace with all the new values and some never made the adjustment.

 

Therein I think lies the crux of the issue.

 

People have refused to adapt to many things, however in this age of labels and identity "issues" (gender, race, ethnicity, creed, etc) we have used those labels as means to scapegoat the lack of willingness of many to adapt.

 

4 of the 80 in my boot camp company tried suicide, none succeeded.

 

There have been a couple different times when there's been a suicide watch on me personally. Yeah, I know what it's like.

 

Like labels, the stigma of seeking counseling/mental health care only stays with you if you let it. If you refuse to let the label or the circumstances weigh you down, there is little anyone can do to you. In other words, if you wear the fact that you had treatments as an armband of shame or something to hide, you're allowing yourself one more excuse for not achieving what you want.

 

The OP refers to an item of third party grief that they read in the newspaper. I'm not doubting the validity of it despite the fact it could be a hoax. I've lost one of each member of my family EXCEPT a child or sibling. I know how bad each of those has hurt and cannot fathom the difference in hurt that it would bring for it to be someone closer, especially someone I had invested xx years in teaching them values and morals and ideals.

 

However, there comes a time when each and every person much make value judgements, child/parent/sibling/etc. and no matter what we do or say, they may not choose what we wish they would.

 

Beating yourself over the choice of another adult is useless at best, damaging to self at worst.

 

While I agree that some of the opinions posted in this thread have not been completely helpful, I do agree that the OP of the thread was indeed trying to make a backhanded political statement.

 

 

[Mister Tee]

I don't think the answer is to exclude women from training, or to soften the training in any way. Skills of women and men overlap, and while you won't find many women with the personality, interest, or strength for combat, you'll find some, and the ones that qualify shouldn't be excluded. I do think it's a mistake to set some preconceived goal of having, say, 10% of your combat forces be women, and lower the standards until you get there.

 

Brilliantly stated! As a comparison, I've watched some Fire Depts. lower the physical agilities standards in order to allow women to make the grade just for the sake of having a woman on the Dept. All I want to know is whether a Firefighter, male or female, is capable of dragging my Husband's sorry butt out of a burning building. Lowered standards don't raise my confidence levels.

 

Another question I have, which I, admittedly, have not researched is about the numbers of young people who sign up for the military as a last resort. That is, could it be possible that significant numbers come from a place of already being financially and socially bereft, with poor education and dim prospects? From that perspective, the military might look like a great option. Between that and the spin that the recruiters generate, self delusion could be pretty easy to succumb to. It would be pretty simple, in that case to end up in a much worse place than where you started.

 

Also, given the approval of violence in this society (movies, TV, video games,etc.), might the IDEA of going out there to gloriously kill your enemies, be a thrilling prospect to an 18 year old? I'm sure the reality takes quite a bit of the shine off of the apple.

 

I am in complete agreement with all of these points. Military life can be harsh, and the reality of combat is ugly. The only way to live with yourself is to pump yourself up with adreneline, and put yourself in another fictional world. In fact, we used to call the outside world "The world." I aged from 18 to 35 in the course of just a few weeks.

 

My intent for the comments I make is not to downplay the tragedy, or to be condecending to anyone, but rather to explore the root cause, and perhaps find a way to avoid, if not necessarily cure, the problem.

[Huzband]

While I agree that some of the opinions posted in this thread have not been completely helpful, I do agree that the OP of the thread was indeed trying to make a backhanded political statement.

 

 

That's why I luv ya, Matt. You put into words what I'm thinking in a way I usually can't.

 

Thank you.

 

Edit;

 

This thread has gone from vile to disgusting. The powers that rule this this roost preclude me from continuing with my thoughts & opinions.

[Bheckel169]

Mama Hoon,

 

I suppose you might also deduce that some young people might have been influenced by patriotism or whatever that might suggest in a young mind, especially during the twin towers disaster and from another perspective a more practical side to their enlistment knowing that their future education through the GI Bill might provide a chance for them to advance their lives. Not all our decisions are based on naivete or ignorance.

Bruce

[Les is more]

I agree, Bruce.

 

I'm quite sure that patriotism figured into the decisions of many. My musings were really more wrapped around the suicide issue and some of the things which might be involved.

[Les is more]

While I agree that some of the opinions posted in this thread have not been completely helpful, I do agree that the OP of the thread was indeed trying to make a backhanded political statement.

 

This strikes me as possibly the least helpful statement in this thread.

[DaveTheAffable]

I find the linking of mental health care, suicide, and political agendas, rather disingenuous.

Don't know if I have the ability to refrain, but I'm going to try.

 

+1

[KDeline]

What did all these solders think they were getting into when they VOLUNTEERED for the services? Throwing marshmallows? Should have thought it out before signing on the line.

 

That's just plain ugly and not in the least helpful.

 

Jan

 

What the heck do you think WAR is? Pretty? If you want to take a chance to go and play Rambo with big guns, fine. Don't piss and moan when they shoot back and you see the inside of your buddy all over you.

[KDeline]

What did all these solders think they were getting into when they VOLUNTEERED for the services? Throwing marshmallows? Should have thought it out before signing on the line.

 

I spent 22 years in the military and agree with the original post, it is a tragedy when anyone, male or female takes their own life. Many people join the service based on glamorous military advertisements of travel, etc. Sometimes they're sold a bill of goods that isn't reality and it's too late once they get to basic training. As a physician in the military I saw many depressed soldiers. They would come in for other reasons, not wanting a mental disorder on their records. If fact, they often wouldn't go to the doctor for significant medical problems, either, for fear it would result in their discharge or assignment restrictions. It isn't like in civilian life where your medical or psychological problems are easily kept separate from your profession. Many would go to civilian doctors and psychologists and pay out of pocket in order to keep it off their records.

 

Also, the length of combat tours is much greater and repeated more frequently with less "in between training" than in SE Asia and other conflicts. This creates a greater strain on service men and women and their families. This was not how it was presented to them when they signed up to throw marshmallows.

 

 

When you sign up you have to know there is a chance you will be shot at, it's the MILITARY. All the weapons are not for parades.

[Matts_12GS]

While I agree that some of the opinions posted in this thread have not been completely helpful, I do agree that the OP of the thread was indeed trying to make a backhanded political statement.

 

This strikes me as possibly the least helpful statement in this thread.

 

Perhaps so! As Carl the greenskeeper said "I got that going for me, which is nice..."

 

So, I'll plead guilty to inferring what was not directly implied, and I'll offer a pre-emptive mea culpa that I'll most likely do it again.

[Trajan]

KDeline,

 

Did you serve in the military?

 

I did for 27 years and I served a combat tour in Afghanistan. I worked on a high echelon staff so if I didn't want to go in harms way, I didn't have to. But I did because that's what officers do - it's called leadership. I was 45, married and my daughter was in college.

 

So, unless you've been there, shut your piehole.

 

The issue is lack of leadership. Officers and senior leadership are stuck to the computer screen instead of being out where they can be seen by the troops. This is crucial. A handshake and a kind word, sharing the danger and hardship, being accessible to the troops, it helps. I still have Soldiers who call and write because of some of the things they saw. They do know what they are getting into and many of them go back as volunteers. But it is tiring and your brain gets tired too.

 

An issue that seems to drive them to suicide is the unrelenting defeatist attitude of the mainstream media and many elected officials. Get this straight - I do blame them for some of the problems. Words mean things. Are you a murdering rapist, KDeline? Apparently, I am. I read it in the paper.

 

Awagnon, thanks for taking care of troops. I know what you're talking about. All your points are valid. I remember unloading a Soldier's pistol and walking her to the doctor's office because she was just plain scared. We just took her off road patrol for a few days and made sure she slept and ate. It took three days. She was OK and it didn't go into her record. She showed up for work on the fourth day and was warmly welcomed by her team. We've all been there. It's called compassion.

 

If you know a veteran, just say "Thanks". Listen if they want to talk. It helps.

[Ken H.]

Also, given the approval of violence in this society (movies, TV, video games,etc.), might the IDEA of going out there to gloriously kill your enemies, be a thrilling prospect to an 18 year old? I'm sure the reality takes quite a bit of the shine off of the apple.

I think that's a lot of it personally. Kids both glorify violence & death and become desensitized to it by 1000s and 1000s of hours playing ultra-violent video games. Then suddenly they find themselves in the mist of the the real shit and (maybe understandably) mentally come apart. There's no "Start New Game?" button in (insert name of military conflict).

[Twisties]

KDeline,

 

Did you serve in the military?

 

I did for 27 years and I served a combat tour in Afghanistan. I worked on a high echelon staff so if I didn't want to go in harms way, I didn't have to. But I did because that's what officers do - it's called leadership. I was 45, married and my daughter was in college.

 

So, unless you've been there, shut your piehole.

 

The issue is lack of leadership. Officers and senior leadership are stuck to the computer screen instead of being out where they can be seen by the troops. This is crucial. A handshake and a kind word, sharing the danger and hardship, being accessible to the troops, it helps. I still have Soldiers who call and write because of some of the things they saw. They do know what they are getting into and many of them go back as volunteers. But it is tiring and your brain gets tired too.

 

An issue that seems to drive them to suicide is the unrelenting defeatist attitude of the mainstream media and many elected officials. Get this straight - I do blame them for some of the problems. Words mean things. Are you a murdering rapist, KDeline? Apparently, I am. I read it in the paper.

 

Awagnon, thanks for taking care of troops. I know what you're talking about. All your points are valid. I remember unloading a Soldier's pistol and walking her to the doctor's office because she was just plain scared. We just took her off road patrol for a few days and made sure she slept and ate. It took three days. She was OK and it didn't go into her record. She showed up for work on the fourth day and was warmly welcomed by her team. We've all been there. It's called compassion.

 

If you know a veteran, just say "Thanks". Listen if they want to talk. It helps.

 

Thanks.

[ltljohn]

KDeline,

 

Did you serve in the military?

 

I did for 27 years and I served a combat tour in Afghanistan. I worked on a high echelon staff so if I didn't want to go in harms way, I didn't have to. But I did because that's what officers do - it's called leadership. I was 45, married and my daughter was in college.

 

So, unless you've been there, shut your piehole.

 

The issue is lack of leadership. Officers and senior leadership are stuck to the computer screen instead of being out where they can be seen by the troops. This is crucial. A handshake and a kind word, sharing the danger and hardship, being accessible to the troops, it helps. I still have Soldiers who call and write because of some of the things they saw. They do know what they are getting into and many of them go back as volunteers. But it is tiring and your brain gets tired too.

 

An issue that seems to drive them to suicide is the unrelenting defeatist attitude of the mainstream media and many elected officials. Get this straight - I do blame them for some of the problems. Words mean things. Are you a murdering rapist, KDeline? Apparently, I am. I read it in the paper.

 

Awagnon, thanks for taking care of troops. I know what you're talking about. All your points are valid. I remember unloading a Soldier's pistol and walking her to the doctor's office because she was just plain scared. We just took her off road patrol for a few days and made sure she slept and ate. It took three days. She was OK and it didn't go into her record. She showed up for work on the fourth day and was warmly welcomed by her team. We've all been there. It's called compassion.

 

If you know a veteran, just say "Thanks". Listen if they want to talk. It helps.

 

 

I can not speak from personal experience but I know what Viet Nam did to my brother, when he returned he showed me and my other brother lots of very graphic pictures, burned them in the fireplace and then disappeared for 5 years. That being said, those of us that have never been there have no comprehension of what it is like. We can guess we can speculate but we will never know. What our returning Veterans need is compassion and respect from all of us and for their fellow combat veterans to talk to them as an equal and help them through their bad times.

 

And lastly to Trajan, WELL SAID!!!!

[Huzband]

While I agree that some of the opinions posted in this thread have not been completely helpful, I do agree that the OP of the thread was indeed trying to make a backhanded political statement.

 

This strikes me as possibly the least helpful statement in this thread.

 

While I fully understand, & accept, that this is your house, it's quite obvious that when an opinion you disagree with is posted, you find it "least helpful".

 

Not picking a fight, just sayin'.

[Matts_12GS]

I find it laughable how so many people actually believe this.

 

This whole idea of "gloriously killing ones enemies" that's floating around is bovine scat. But, maybe investing some time actually finding what motivates these kids to go without interjecting your opinions or biases into the conversation, that'd be time well spent. Go talk to a recruiter, find out what he hears. Listen without talking and without trying to dissuade them out of their choice.

 

When I joined it was for a chance to learn a trade. I didn't have the grades, maturity or ambition to go to college so I joined the Navy where my lack of maturity and ambition were countered so effectively I learned to live like an adult. I gave 10 years of my life to Uncle Sugar and in return I got experiences that can never be repeated, education, motivation and a taste of what can happen when you apply yourself.

 

I came out with a bachelor's degree and the ability to problem solve. I learned to stop sitting on the sidelines pissing and moaning about what's going wrong and actually get in the game and fix problems.

 

Maybe moving to a different country is the best you can contribute to the equation. If so, I bid you peace and implore you to drop your US Citizenship. Commit to what you believe in...

 

If some others think that our politicians are so corrupt or stupid or otherwise breaching the faith of the people I would likewise encourage you, run for office. Put some skin in the game and go effect change. If you're nearly a third as smart as you think you are, we'll all be better off once you're elected. I was courted by my local party to run and turned them down because they didn't care to support my ideas as well as theirs. I might still do it, but for now, I speak to candidates. I write letters, I call staffers. It's fun. And educational.

 

Besides, for those that like the government's "womb to tomb" care, what better place on earth could there be than nestled up to the government funded grocery spigot?

 

 

expecting the ban or the lock down in ...3 ...2 ...1

[KDeline]

[quote=

 

 

 

 

 

So, unless you've been there, shut your piehole.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was smarter then volunteering to become a target. Read into that statment whatever you want, you're probably right.

[Ken H.]

I find it laughable how so many people actually believe this.

 

This whole idea of "gloriously killing ones enemies" that's floating around is bovine scat. But, maybe investing some time actually finding what motivates these kids to go without interjecting your opinions or biases into the conversation, that'd be time well spent. Go talk to a recruiter, find out what he hears. Listen without talking and without trying to dissuade them out of their choice.

 

When I joined it was for a chance to learn a trade. I didn't have the grades, maturity or ambition to go to college so I joined the Navy where my lack of maturity and ambition were countered so effectively I learned to live like an adult. I gave 10 years of my life to Uncle Sugar and in return I got experiences that can never be repeated, education, motivation and a taste of what can happen when you apply yourself.

 

I came out with a bachelor's degree and the ability to problem solve. I learned to stop sitting on the sidelines pissing and moaning about what's going wrong and actually get in the game and fix problems.

 

Maybe moving to a different country is the best you can contribute to the equation. If so, I bid you peace and implore you to drop your US Citizenship. Commit to what you believe in...

 

If some others think that our politicians are so corrupt or stupid or otherwise breaching the faith of the people I would likewise encourage you, run for office. Put some skin in the game and go effect change. If you're nearly a third as smart as you think you are, we'll all be better off once you're elected. I was courted by my local party to run and turned them down because they didn't care to support my ideas as well as theirs. I might still do it, but for now, I speak to candidates. I write letters, I call staffers. It's fun. And educational.

 

Besides, for those that like the government's "womb to tomb" care, what better place on earth could there be than nestled up to the government funded grocery spigot?

 

 

expecting the ban or the lock down in ...3 ...2 ...1

Ignoring all the irrelevant to the subject at hand personal slams for the moment...

 

I don't know your age Matt, I can guess it's not a lot different than mine (early 50s). But I might summit for your consideration that the entertainment environment the 6 to 16 year olds live in today, and their perception of virtual reality warfare vs. reality warfare; is much, much different than when you were a teen in line at the Navy recruitment center.

 

The basic difference is participation vs. observation. We baby-boomers where exposed to a lot of violence on TV, mostly in cartoons, but it was by-and-large passive observation.

 

Today's youth play 1000s of hours of increasingly more realistic video games where they actively 'kill' people. By the hundreds an hour, and are 'rewarded' for doing so, it's the main goal of the games. You'll never convince me that that environment doesn't have an effect on their perception of reality and what they think death is.

 

And when the stark truth hits them, it's a factor (not the whole issue of course, but a factor) in the rising military suicide rates.

[Firefight911]

[quote=

 

 

 

 

 

So, unless you've been there, shut your piehole.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was smarter then volunteering to become a target.

 

Thank a vet for your being able to say that!!! And take your damn hat off when doing it.

 

Your welcome. Semper FI, Do or Die! 6 years active duty, 85-91, E-5 Sgt.

[Les is more]

While I fully understand, & accept, that this is your house, it's quite obvious that when an opinion you disagree with is posted, you find it "least helpful".

 

Not picking a fight, just sayin'.

 

What I find "least helpful" is smacking a poster for what you have determined to be his motive, rather than keeping the discussion about the issue. You have no idea about my opinion. I'm reading this topic in an attempt to learn something about a complicated issue. The only way these topics are going to survive is if we keep our comments directed to those issues without attributing motive to or making judgments about the people posting. That's our prejudice where this site is concerned and yes, based on that, it is Admin's party, Admin's rules.

[Redbrick]

[quote=

 

 

 

 

 

So, unless you've been there, shut your piehole.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was smarter then volunteering to become a target.

 

Thank a vet for your being able to say that!!! And take your damn hat off when doing it.

 

Your welcome. Semper FI, Do or Die! 6 years active duty, 85-91, E-5 Sgt.

[Bud]

Well, I'm late to this, however, I am aware that there is a bill in Congress to give benefits to vets and some members (including a former POW presidential candidate) say "We can not afford to do this."

 

I'm not at all sorry to say "Why the hell not?" These kids (from my old phart perspective) did their job and risked life and limb. No matter where one stands on this war, those who serve deserve more. If we can afford Billion$ to fight the war, we can afford the post war costs which include caring for vets.

 

Beyond those who don't come home, are 10's of thousands who would have previously died, but because of quick medical attention will return home disabled. Our country owes them competent medical care for the rest of their lives and it looks like the VA does not now have the resources nor is it likely the resources will be available in the future.

 

Getting off the soap box now but not the least repentant, in any manner, when it comes to fighting for those who served.

[Shaman97]

Well, I'm late to this, however, I am aware that there is a bill in Congress to give benefits to vets and some members (including a former POW presidential candidate) say "We can not afford to do this."

 

I'm not at all sorry to say "Why the hell not?" These kids (from my old phart perspective) did their job and risked life and limb. No matter where one stands on this war, those who serve deserve more. If we can afford Billion$ to fight the war, we can afford the post war costs which include caring for vets.

 

Beyond those who don't come home, are 10's of thousands who would have previously died, but because of quick medical attention will return home disabled. Our country owes them competent medical care for the rest of their lives and it looks like the VA does not now have the resources nor is it likely the resources will be available in the future.

 

Getting off the soap box now but not the least repentant, in any manner, when it comes to fighting for those who served.

 

They have already started the winnowing process.

 

I just recently found out that I am no longer eligible for VA coverage. Why? Because I did not enroll for VA coverage by 2003 - this after finding out about the deadline...in 2008!! No message from the DoD, VA or USN prior to the deadline informing me of the deadline. This way, they get rid of having to deal with millions of Veterans that otherwise would be eligible for coverage.

Something tells me that if they wanted to schlep my sorry butt to Iraq, they'd find my address alright.

 

Thank you Congress, and GW.

[Matts_12GS]

Thank you Congress, and GW.

 

I'm sure W and Dick were sitting around saying let's go ahead and stick a big ol' hot one right in Shaman's eye... we'll deny him coverage retroactively...

 

Buy a vowel, buy a clue, gain some perspective...

 

 

 

 

 

 

And be glad you had that option for coverage till then...

[Matts_12GS]

... You have no idea about my opinion. I'm reading this topic in an attempt to learn something about a complicated issue...

 

Les, as we have discussed in PMs, much of this is a difference of opinion, and I'll state here for the record that you are likely the only person here I'd attribute that trait to. None of the rest of these zebras are likely to change their spots, myself included.

 

Yes, I know zebras have stripes, if you were about to post that, you may consider yourself chastened for proving my point...

 

 

That's our prejudice where this site is concerned and yes, based on that, it is Admin's party, Admin's rules.

 

So, the golden rule works here (she w/the gold makes the rules...). Dang it, I hope the rules don't change just becuase I'm starting to understand them!

[Shaman97]

Thank you Congress, and GW.

 

I'm sure W and Dick were sitting around saying let's go ahead and stick a big ol' hot one right in Shaman's eye... we'll deny him coverage retroactively...

 

Buy a vowel, buy a clue, gain some perspective...

 

 

And be glad you had that option for coverage till then...

 

Laxative not kicking in yet?

 

Point being that I would still be eligible for coverage if I were informed of the change in policy that I enlisted and re-enlisted under for 14 years. My address hasn't changed since my last enlistment ended; the VA has my address also. My fellow SubVets members have been similarly surprised and affected. Why no notice? That's alot of people. You don't think that was a designed outcome?

[Les is more]

Thanks to a degeneration into personal attacks and politics, this thread is now locked.