This left me in tears..

[Twisties]

... and I'm still crying. The following appeared in a forum in the Salt Lake Tribune today:

 

My beautiful 22 year-old daughter committed suicide last December after a deployment in Iraq. Without a doubt, her death began during her tour of duty in that dry and dusty piece of earth.

 

When I suggested to her at one point that she see a therapist, her answer was, "I can't, it will appear in my jacket." Her fear of military reprisals, condemnation, and being a considered a "weak link" prohibited her from getting the counseling she so obviously required.

 

Historically, this country uses up its young, idealistic lions and sadly leaves them to their own devices when done with them. We are the ultimate throw-away society.

 

I am left asking, what do I do with all my dreams now?

 

 

[Francois_Dumas]

...........

[mickey05]

+1 too.

[Dave McReynolds]

On the average, 120 veterans commit suicide per week, which is over twice the rate of the US population as a whole.

[Huzband]

Jeez, not again.

 

Come on Jan, your getting redundant. We're all very clear on where you stand.

 

Give it a rest.

[Bheckel169]

I had a hard time with these numbers you posted. CBS News was able to produce these numbers under the Freedom of Information Act. "between 1995 and 2007, there were almost 2,200 suicides." That's about 188 a year, not the number you gave us. Granted, nobody wants to see these suicides. It's very sad, but it's clearly not the numbers you provide. Not even close.

Bruce

[tallman]

Jeez, not again.

 

Come on Jan, your getting redundant. We're all very clear on where you stand.

 

Give it a rest.

 

 

Another thread about progeny?

[chrisd]

How do we as a society get over the notion that getting professional help for mental health issues is a negative? Or before that, getting past the belief that having mental health issues automatically implies certain things about people?

[Dave McReynolds]

I had a hard time with these numbers you posted. CBS News was able to produce these numbers under the Freedom of Information Act. "between 1995 and 2007, there were almost 2,200 suicides." That's about 188 a year, not the number you gave us. Granted, nobody wants to see these suicides. It's very sad, but it's clearly not the numbers you provide. Not even close.

Bruce

 

My source, which contains this quote: "In 2005, for example, in just those 45 states, there were at least 6,256 suicides among those who served in the armed forces. That’s 120 each and every week, in just one year."

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

On the average, 120 veterans commit suicide per week, which is over twice the rate of the US population as a whole.

 

I gather this is the current (wartime) rate.

 

How does it compare with the peacetime military suicide rate?

[Twisties]

I had a hard time with these numbers you posted. CBS News was able to produce these numbers under the Freedom of Information Act. "between 1995 and 2007, there were almost 2,200 suicides." That's about 188 a year, not the number you gave us. Granted, nobody wants to see these suicides. It's very sad, but it's clearly not the numbers you provide. Not even close.

Bruce

 

Some info I found on rates of active service persons, the problem, the response:

Army.Mil/News - January '08

 

Voice of America - Pentagon listed as author - May '08

 

For Veteran Suicides:

CBS NEWS - How we got the numbers

 

Office of Inspector General Dept of Veteran's Affairs

[tallman]

Data for both, peace, and war-time, are available.

Suicide rates in the military are below the National average.

“In 2003, 24 soldiers deployed to Kuwait and Iraq committed suicide — a rate of 17.3 per 100,000. The overall Army suicide rate during the same time period was 12.8 per 100,000 soldiers. This compares to the Army's rate of 12.2 for 2003 and 11.9 from 1995 to 2002.

1. The suicide rate for deployed troops dropped dramatically in 2004. Swanner said no suicides were reported in January or February, and just one soldier took his own life in March. The cause of another fatality has not yet been determined.

Despite the spike, officials said these figures remain lower than the national average of 21.5 per 100,000 for males ages 20 to 34. This is the age bracket for most U.S. soldiers in Iraq. “

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/terrorism/a/arsuicide.htm

 

“The suicide rate for military members during 2005 was 11 per 100,000, Dr. David Tornberg, deputy assistant secretary of defense for clinical and program policy, told American Forces Press Service. That compares to about 19.5 per 100,000, the national average for Americans in the 20- to 44-year age group. And experts say this rate may actually be 40 or 50 percent higher than reported, Tornberg said

In fact, the suicide rate within the military has remained "remarkably steady" over the past decade, through peacetime and war, Tornberg said”

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=15687

 

“Suicides have been rising nearly each year of the five-year-old war in Iraq and the nearly seven years of war in Afghanistan. The 115 deaths last year and 102 in 2006 followed 85 in 2005 and 67 in 2004. The rate of 18.8 per 100,000 last year compared to a rate of 17.5 in 2006 and 9.8 in 2002 — the first full year after the start of the war in Afghanistan.

1. The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said the suicide rate for U.S. society overall was about 11 per 100,000 in 2004, the latest year for which the agency has figures. The Army said that when civilian rates are adjusted to cover the same age and gender mix that exists in the Army, the civilian rate is more like 19.5 per 100,000.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080529/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/military_suicides

 

All of which shows that;

1. Any loss of life may be tragic.

2. The difference in data is so vast that one might want to have all information.

3. Dave, your info cites statistics for veterans going back 7 years before involvement in Iraq.

4. The military is aware of, and addressing the problem.

5. CBS news reported (in that same article) suicide rates 50% lower for the age group than the CDC gov’t data shows. This CDC data would include the military suicides, so, how is that possible?

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus07.pdf#046

6. I can’t freaking believe that I’m responding to this .

 

But, the blatant misrepresentation of data is hard to abide.

[Dave McReynolds]

On the average, 120 veterans commit suicide per week, which is over twice the rate of the US population as a whole.

 

I gather this is the current (wartime) rate.

 

How does it compare with the peacetime military suicide rate?

 

My understanding is that in the past the suicide rate in the military has been less than the suicide rate for the population as a whole, and this has been the case during war and peace. This has been attributed to the fact that those in the military have generally been drawn from the more healthy members of society; many of those with obvious mental or physical problems were not accepted into the military. This understanding has been based on my association with people involved with this organization, the goal of which is to help in the transition of military veterans into civilian life. Unfortunately, a quick check of the internet did not provide me with anything to specifically back up this assertion.

 

So the current high suicide rate seems to be a result of factors in the current conflict that differ from conflicts in the past.

[Dave McReynolds]

5. CBS news reported (in that same article) suicide rates 50% lower for the age group than the CDC gov’t data shows. This CDC data would include the military suicides, so, how is that possible?

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus07.pdf#046

6. I can’t freaking believe that I’m responding to this .

 

So you disagree with this quote from the article?

 

"One age group stood out. Veterans aged 20 through 24, those who have served during the war on terror. They had the highest suicide rate among all veterans, estimated between two and four times higher than civilians the same age. (The suicide rate for non-veterans is 8.3 per 100,000, while the rate for veterans was found to be between 22.9 and 31.9 per 100,000.)"

 

It seems pretty specific to me.

[Fugu]

How do we as a society get over the notion that getting professional help for mental health issues is a negative?

 

Please don't interrupt the politicizing of this tragedy with your attempt at relevant discussion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tallman]

Yes,

it is contrary to CDC data, and reports isssued by the Gov't and the military.

That CBS data went back to 1995 and seems strangely out of whack w/all the other info.

Wouldn't be the first time CBS was the only one right.

 

 

Or would it.

[Twisties]

I just want to point out that the suicide rate in the military, how it compares to U.S. society as a whole, and whether the current conflicts affect that are only one aspect of the issues in the post. Certainly one that leaves plenty of room for discussion, along with it's follow-on question: Are we doing enough?

 

Personally, now that I've settled enough to think about the post more, I think rt1jones question is very important, and I hope we don't lose sight of it. In fact, the young ladies' resistance to treatment was one of the things that struck me as most tragic about the whole thing.

 

I also hope that we can discuss this concept of the throw away society as it applies to persons. This is the second time I've heard that used, but the first since I've had to deal with some family related aging issues, you know cancers, dementia, and the like. Recently I had a discussion with some retired persons about the struggle to find meaning and dignity in retirement. I think this "throw away" thing is a concept that is worthy of discussion.

 

Jan

[tallman]

Jan,

I deal w/"Throw away" children every day.

Children with both parents in jail, children where drugs, violence, crime, lack of education, permeates the environment.

Some of my kids come from different backgrounds.

The concept is not new to those of us who work with young adults/children.

I also worked in Neurological Health Care, when I was younger.

Even then, early '70's, the concept of "throw away" was omnipresent in the mental health care that was available for some citizens.

Remember VP nominee Thomas Eagleton?

Hospitalized for nervous/physical exhaustion and treated w/ECS?

He suffered the stigma of "needing" mental health care and was removed.

(He went on to better days).

I find the linking of mental health care, suicide, and political agendas, rather disingenuous.

Don't know if I have the ability to refrain, but I'm going to try.

 

[Fugu]

the young ladies' resistance to treatment was one of the things that struck me as most tragic about the whole thing.

 

And that is something that is prevalent in society as a whole, not just in our servicemen and women, cops, firefighters, whatever. Somebody with a "wimpy" desk job feels the same unwarranted shame at their mind being "broken" and needing help to cope with stuff. They fear reprisals of their own. These mole hills become insurmountable mountains, even if they can get past the stereotypical notion of what treatment entails (tell me about your mother...).

 

Many people still regard clinical depression when it's not triggered by something like PTSD as little more than "being down in the dumps" and think those who suffer from it just need a swift kick in the rear to get motivated. Ask somebody who has lived with it, or lived with somebody who did about how ignorant that point of view is, and how somebody who is really clinically depressed reacts to that kick in the rear.

 

Doctors handing out Paxil and other wonder pills like they are candy do more harm than good. They trivialize the issue along with the ridiculous commercials run by drug companies for these brain chemistry altering cocktails. They encourage people who really are just down in the dumps to abdicate their sense of self-responsibility and just take the happy pills, and they treat those who have an urgent need for real medical attention with the same flippant disregard- take these and call me in a month - with sometimes tragic results.

 

My wife had a medical issue last year and a lazy doctor missed a mass of scar tissue partially blocking her airway that was causing weezing, and gave her a stack of anti-depression meds samples to take. No follow up. Needless to say she didn't take them but holy cow- if she had? Who knows what the altered brain chemistry would have brought with it.

 

[keithb]

Thanks for your report on the numbers Bruce. I heard the same numbers as well.

[David]

I think you all will find that the stigma associated with admitting and asking for treatment of mental health issues varies by geography in the US, too. There's more stigma associated with it in the south than the west coast, for instance.

 

If you have a therapist in Arkansas, the presumption is that something is wrong. If you don't have one in California, the same thing is true--something is wrong.

 

That's a gross generalization, but I see very different levels of stigma attached to mental health issues based on geography.

[Twisties]

the young ladies' resistance to treatment was one of the things that struck me as most tragic about the whole thing.

 

And that is something that is prevalent in society as a whole, not just in our servicemen and women, cops, firefighters, whatever. Somebody with a "wimpy" desk job feels the same unwarranted shame at their mind being "broken" and needing help to cope with stuff. They fear reprisals of their own. These mole hills become insurmountable mountains, even if they can get past the stereotypical notion of what treatment entails (tell me about your mother...).

 

Many people still regard clinical depression when it's not triggered by something like PTSD as little more than "being down in the dumps" and think those who suffer from it just need a swift kick in the rear to get motivated. Ask somebody who has lived with it, or lived with somebody who did about how ignorant that point of view is, and how somebody who is really clinically depressed reacts to that kick in the rear.

 

Doctors handing out Paxil and other wonder pills like they are candy do more harm than good. They trivialize the issue along with the ridiculous commercials run by drug companies for these brain chemistry altering cocktails. They encourage people who really are just down in the dumps to abdicate their sense of self-responsibility and just take the happy pills, and they treat those who have an urgent need for real medical attention with the same flippant disregard- take these and call me in a month - with sometimes tragic results.

 

My wife had a medical issue last year and a lazy doctor missed a mass of scar tissue partially blocking her airway that was causing weezing, and gave her a stack of anti-depression meds samples to take. No follow up. Needless to say she didn't take them but holy cow- if she had? Who knows what the altered brain chemistry would have brought with it.

 

Just for the record, and yeah, I'm surprised too, I agree with EVERYTHING you said.

 

Jan

[Les is more]

Jeez, not again.

 

Come on Jan, your getting redundant. We're all very clear on where you stand.

 

Give it a rest.

 

These kinds of responses have little to do with the character of this site and add nothing to the conversation.

[Twisties]

I think you all will find that the stigma associated with admitting and asking for treatment of mental health issues varies by geography in the US, too. There's more stigma associated with it in the south than the west coast, for instance.

 

If you have a therapist in Arkansas, the presumption is that something is wrong. If you don't have one in California, the same thing is true--something is wrong.

 

That's a gross generalization, but I see very different levels of stigma attached to mental health issues based on geography.

 

There is plenty of stigma around here. I'm hoping that when Bullett gets home she can tell you a bit about how having a "psych" issue affects you in the medical and legal systems. I think she would council a loved one to avoid treatment unless their condition was very serious because having a psych record is so devastating down the road.

[Bheckel169]

Not sure of the origin but a straw horse is any weak argument or proposal that won't hold up to intense scrutiny but clearly represents an underlying agenda; in this case the underlying argument not stated specifically is that the Iraq War has caused a high rate of suicides. Its subtrafuge would suggest an argument for mental health studies but the truth is the data doesn't support the argument. Thus, the transitional argument to whit, we have to do something about the way we deal with the mental health questions that are the underlying problem.

I refer to the original argument and my statement which is, suicide is very sad. In war, after war, in children, in relationships but the numbers don't suggest that we have a statistical anomaly that warrants any more intense scrutiny.

Bruce

[DiggerJim]

But, the blatant misrepresentation of data is hard to abide.

I can relate. As a numbers geek (and LEAN and Six-Sigma guy too) it drives me nuts when inappropriate data comparisons are used. The best I've been able to do is teach my kids to apply a "reasonability skepticism" to all statistics they see. I think they understand now that 49.4% of all statistics are flawed or used inappropriately.

[Dave McReynolds]

Not sure of the origin but a straw horse is any weak argument or proposal that won't hold up to intense scrutiny but clearly represents an underlying agenda; in this case the underlying argument not stated specifically is that the Iraq War has caused a high rate of suicides. Its subtrafuge would suggest an argument for mental health studies but the truth is the data doesn't support the argument. Thus, the transitional argument to whit, we have to do something about the way we deal with the mental health questions that are the underlying problem.

I refer to the original argument and my statement which is, suicide is very sad. In war, after war, in children, in relationships but the numbers don't suggest that we have a statistical anomaly that warrants any more intense scrutiny.

Bruce

 

This is an article explaining how CBS got their information regarding veteran suicides. Are you aware of any authoritative challenges to their numbers?

 

I honestly didn't have any agenda when I posted the original comments and link, other than the fact that I have been concerned enough about the problem to support organizations in my local area that work with returning veterans who may have PTSD. Maybe I'm naive, but I had no idea this would even be taken as a political issue. Whether the war in Iraq is right, wrong, or indifferent, if veteran suicide is a serious problem, it ought to be addressed. If I'm deluding myself, or being deluded by the news media, I would like to know, so I can stop wasting my time.

 

But to be honest, I haven't learned very much about the issue from your comments so far. What is YOUR agenda?

[Mike]

I just want to point out that the suicide rate in the military, how it compares to U.S. society as a whole, and whether the current conflicts affect that are only one aspect of the issues in the post. Certainly one that leaves plenty of room for discussion, along with it's follow-on question: Are we doing enough?

 

Jan

 

Jan, I don't know if, in retrospect, we ever feel that we've done enough. However, I can speak with some authority with how the military deals with this, since I retired not too long ago, after 28 years of active and reserve duty in the Air Force. My perception is that the other services dealt with it in much the same way.

 

Suicide prevention was a significant and serious focus of the Air Force's leadership. While our rate of suicide was comparable to the civilian world's, it had a devastating impact on a unit when it occurred. Those who haven't been in the military don't always understand this, but those with whom you work often become as close as family, and the loss of a fellow servicemember to suicide often had a horrible affect on those around him.

 

As a result, suicide prevention training occurred on a regular basis, both aimed at getting those who were suicidal to seek treatment and encouraging those who had concerns about others to come forward and try to get them help. On more than one occasion, I walked with a young man or woman to our medical facility to get them to accept treatment.

 

Having said that, in the military there can be a particularly strong aversion to seeking help. There's the concern about the associated stigma, but at least equally important, people are legitimately concerned that they'll ultimately be medically discharged. So, despite the genuine efforts to prevent suicide, it still happened. But, at least we tried.

[Twisties]

Not sure of the origin but a straw horse is any weak argument or proposal that won't hold up to intense scrutiny but clearly represents an underlying agenda; in this case the underlying argument not stated specifically is that the Iraq War has caused a high rate of suicides. Its subtrafuge would suggest an argument for mental health studies but the truth is the data doesn't support the argument. Thus, the transitional argument to whit, we have to do something about the way we deal with the mental health questions that are the underlying problem.

I refer to the original argument and my statement which is, suicide is very sad. In war, after war, in children, in relationships but the numbers don't suggest that we have a statistical anomaly that warrants any more intense scrutiny.

Bruce

 

Bruce,

 

Hope we get to meet sometime, truly. I think we would have some very interesting discussions and I'm pretty sure we see eye to eye on several things.

 

I've read your post about 4 times. Let me see if understand it. Your argument is that because Dave McReynolds' reaction to the OP was that military suicide is an important issue, that I can't have any other interests or see any other issues in the OP? Further that in saying that I do have such interests I'm engaging in subterfuge and hidden agendas, e.g. dishonesty, because my only interest in posting the OP could only have been an attack on the Iraq war. Is that correct?

 

If that is the case, or something similar, let me just point out that I have made no argument whatsoever on the issue of the rate of military suicides. In fact, unless you want to call my statement that the OP left me in tears an argument, I don't believe I've advanced any arguments at all on anything in this thread, though I did agree with Mike (Fugu). Oh yeah and I said that social stigma related to psychological disorders is an issue. I guess that's an argument.

 

Jan

[Twisties]

I just want to point out that the suicide rate in the military, how it compares to U.S. society as a whole, and whether the current conflicts affect that are only one aspect of the issues in the post. Certainly one that leaves plenty of room for discussion, along with it's follow-on question: Are we doing enough?

 

Jan

 

Jan, I don't know if, in retrospect, we ever feel that we've done enough. However, I can speak with some authority with how the military deals with this, since I retired not too long ago, after 28 years of active and reserve duty in the Air Force. My perception is that the other services dealt with it in much the same way.

 

Suicide prevention was a significant and serious focus of the Air Force's leadership. While our rate of suicide was comparable to the civilian world's, it had a devastating impact on a unit when it occurred. Those who haven't been in the military don't always understand this, but those with whom you work often become as close as family, and the loss of a fellow servicemember to suicide often had a horrible affect on those around him.

 

As a result, suicide prevention training occurred on a regular basis, but aimed at getting those who were suicidal to seek treatment and encouraging those who had concerns about others to come forward and try to get them help. On more than one occasion, I walked with a young man or woman to our medical facility to get them to accept treatment.

 

Having said that, in the military there can be a particularly strong aversion to seeking help. There's the concern about the associated stigma, but at least equally important, people are legitimately concerned that they'll ultimately be medically discharged. So, despite the genuine efforts to prevent suicide, it still happened. But, at least we tried.

 

Mike,

 

That pretty much mirrors my understanding as well with respect to active service. The veteran's affairs link I posted earlier seems to suggest that the VA is only now coming on board with implementation of it's program, and that they have a ways to go. But I think we're seeing some progress, e.g. they recognize the problem and have a program.

 

Jan

 

[Mike]

 

Mike,

 

That pretty much mirrors my understanding as well with respect to active service. The veteran's affairs link I posted earlier seems to suggest that the VA is only now coming on board with implementation of it's program, and that they have a ways to go. But I think we're seeing some progress, e.g. they recognize the problem and have a program.

 

Jan

 

That's my perception as well, but I have to confess no great familiarity with the VA. One thing I will note, though, is this: ultimately the responsibility for the budget and the priorities of the VA lies with Congress and the President. If those holding the purse strings and calling the shots on what programs live or die don't fund and support the programs, it's beyond the ability of those in the VA to provide them. Maybe that's your point.

[AdventurePoser]

... and I'm still crying. The following appeared in a forum in the Salt Lake Tribune today:

 

My beautiful 22 year-old daughter committed suicide last December after a deployment in Iraq. Without a doubt, her death began during her tour of duty in that dry and dusty piece of earth.

 

When I suggested to her at one point that she see a therapist, her answer was, "I can't, it will appear in my jacket." Her fear of military reprisals, condemnation, and being a considered a "weak link" prohibited her from getting the counseling she so obviously required.

 

Historically, this country uses up its young, idealistic lions and sadly leaves them to their own devices when done with them. We are the ultimate throw-away society.

 

I am left asking, what do I do with all my dreams now?

 

 

Whatever the numbers, the loss of these young people is appalling. I think we've all been touched by the direct or indirect result of the war. My neighbor and his buddy joined up together, just couple of kids with little direction. One came home in a bag, the other minus a leg.

 

I can only imagine the feelings this soldier's parents are undergoing. My prayers to them.

 

Steve in So Cal

[Whip]

I was wondering how many men and women that have join the military have enriched their lives because of their service in Iraq. I've only met a few and they seem to have grown a lot since their deployment.

I think their chances for success have improved greatly. I also work very closely with a Vietnam vet that feels the same way.

[Dave McReynolds]

I was wondering how many men and women that have join the military have enriched their lives because of their service in Iraq. I've only met a few and they seem to have grown a lot since their deployment.

I think their chances for success have improved greatly. I also work very closely with a Vietnam vet that feels the same way.

 

I don't know if I feel "the same way," but I am a Vietnam Vet, and I have never felt devastated by my experiences in Vietnam. In many ways, I did better after I left the Marines than I was doing before I joined. When I joined the Marines, I had just wasted two years at Northwestern University, and if it hadn't been for the threat of the draft hanging over my head, I would have hit the road like Jack Kerouac (it was a little early for the flower children). I was a little surprised when the Marines assigned me to the infantry, given my stelar IQ and the fact that I had aced all my exams during boot camp and (in my mind) probably qualified for any job in the Marines up to and including Commandant. But my feeling is, after all these years, that the Marines saw through my bull$hit and put me where I would do the most good for the Marines and myself.

 

So I was off with the first bunch of regular Marines to go to Vietnam, where it wasn't much fun, and I saw good friends die. But I came back as a Sergeant E5, served out the rest of my time at Camp Lejeune, and enrolled at the Univ of Ariz. The rest, as they say, is history. I've done well in business and poorly in marriages. But at least all of my ex-wives are now my good friends and I seem to have finally learned how to make that aspect of my life work too with Nancy.

 

For whatever reason, I was able put Vietnam behind me. I have never felt that any of those that didn't were less of a man than I am. I never saw any Marine in Vietnam fail to do his duty, and felt that any of them would have given his life for me, as I would have for any of them.

 

How many of them who sleep under bridges would be sleeping under bridges if they had not been in Vietnam? How many marriages would I have had if I had not been in Vietnam? Who knows? Maybe it would have been the same.

 

As I have said before in other posts, I think the soldiers and Marines in Iraq and Afganistan are under a great deal more stress than we were in Vietnam. We had choppers bringing in beer along with C rations whenever they could get in. The Vietnamese people were generally friendly to us. Nobody had to pretend to be anything other than what they were, and if you felt like bitching, you bitched. The climate, bad as it was, was nothing compared to Iraq. We knew we were one year in country and then back to the world. We wore whatever parts of our uniforms we felt like putting on (or lack thereof). In other words, bad as it was at times, I think we all still pretty much felt like human beings.

 

To sum it up, I think the experience of being a Marine gave me the discipline and focus I needed to pull my life together. I think the Marine Corps, and maybe some genetics for which I can't take credit, did the job well enough that Vietnam couldn't pull it apart.

[BeamieToo]

... and I'm still crying. The following appeared in a forum in the Salt Lake Tribune today:

 

I am left asking, what do I do with all my dreams now?

 

 

The loss of a child is devestating to any caring parent under any circumstance. A child inexplicably taking their own life is indescribable. This ripped and tormented mother will need every bit of help and support she can get just to retain her sanity in a vacuum world of "Why" questions. I pray she gets whatever help she will need to survive this tragedy.

 

My heart and my tears too, go out to her.

[Bheckel169]

Dave,

From the onset I made it clear I was bothered by the numbers in the original post indicating veteran related suicide. As has been stated by many others, numbers can be used to promote agenda driven arguments but under the guise of some underlying theme apparently unrelated. We were talking about veterans, weren't we? We are in the middle of a war in the Middle East aren't we? I don't think it was too much of a stretch to see that there might be some correlation between suicides (especially the number indicated) and the direct affect of the conflict on these veterans; at least a reader could deduce where this was headed.

If that was not the stated intention, my apologies for the incorrect interpretation.

My father was a clinical and neurological psychologist. One of the more "normal" men in that field I've known I was intimately involved growing up with mental health issues as described by my father who ran mental institutions as well as studied suicides over many decades. It was clear from his studies that statistical evidence can be skewed to support any argument and I think we've seen on this thread that other statistics would refute the high numbers originally given.

As a former Vietnam veteran, I've met my share of "head cases", but I've also known many men and women who've come away stronger and more mature and better prepared to handle life's hard lessons. My perspective in this thread was to simply inject a bit of skepticism about the statistics, not to diminish the tragic consequences of veteran's suicides, whether 188 a year or any number for that matter.

Bruce

[Twisties]

Not sure of the origin but a straw horse is any weak argument or proposal that won't hold up to intense scrutiny but clearly represents an underlying agenda; in this case the underlying argument not stated specifically is that the Iraq War has caused a high rate of suicides. Its subtrafuge would suggest an argument for mental health studies but the truth is the data doesn't support the argument. Thus, the transitional argument to whit, we have to do something about the way we deal with the mental health questions that are the underlying problem.

I refer to the original argument and my statement which is, suicide is very sad. In war, after war, in children, in relationships but the numbers don't suggest that we have a statistical anomaly that warrants any more intense scrutiny.

Bruce

 

Bruce, DiggerJim, Tim, Dave,

 

I have now reviewed the information that we have each posted or cited and am ready to take a position on the issue of military suicide rates vs. non-military. All the following is from links already provided in this thread. If someone has more info, I will gladly consider it. I have concluded the following:

 

In active military suicide attempts have increased exponentially since 2002 (Source Army)

Suicide rates now double what they were in 2002, however they are now about what they are in the general population, erasing the military's historically low rates(Source Pentagon)

Military suicides are caused by all the normal reasons for suicide, plus the uniques stresses of war. (Source Pentagon)

74% of 2007 active military suicides had been deployed. (Source Pentagon)

The Military has acknowledged and responded to the issue. 55 new recommendations were introduced in October 2007 targeted specifically to in theater personnel.

 

In Veterans:

 

There are no federal government numbers. (Various agencies as quoted by CBS)

The VA is under mandate to develop numbers, but hasn't yet. (VA OIG)

CBS's number are compiled from available State data. (CBS)

 

My analysis: The CBS numbers appear to be the only numbers available. CBS has been open and clear about it's methodology and used independent unpaid experts. CBS appears to have been very careful. The CBS data relies on State data. The CBS data clearly show that the veteran suicide rate is about double that of the non-veteran population. None of the various objections that have been raised are unanswered by CBS, and so far as I can tell there is no serious objection to the CBS numbers. These numbers are the best available and appear to be reasonably reliable.

 

My conclusions (both active service and veteran):

 

Active military suicides have historically been low because of pre-screening of military personnel, and because of active support systems in the military. The recent conflicts have erased these advantages, and the problem is growing. The military is trying to respond.

 

Veteran suicides in 2004 and 2005, the only years for which data are available, are twice that of the non-veteran population, and Dave's number of 120 per week appears correct. The VA was congressionally mandated in 2003 to establish a support program. This program is just now starting to be implemented (see the VA OIG report). Little is known about the causes of veteran suicide, and much more work needs to be done. Veteran suicides remain a serious problem, and although the argument was not mine, I can't agree that it is weak or that there has been any inappropriate manipulation of the data.

 

I also disagree with any assertion that this issue is blatantly political, or raised for political reasons. The military and congress have acknowledged these issues and are acting on them. We can discuss if their actions are enough or appropriate, but so far we haven't. Dave appears to be actively involved in a citizen action (NGO) aimed at supporting veterans. So far we are mired in an argument as to whether there is a problem or not, whilst those involved readily acknowledge that there is a problem.

 

My suggestion is to lets move on. I want to thank Dave personally for his service in Vietnam, and now for his involvement in supporting other veterans.

[Knifemaker]

I feel for the loss of a child to any parent...

 

I have family members on active duty in Iraq as I type this message.

 

I questioned my nephew about this point (how are you going to deal with life after the military) after 2 tours of duty as a Marine sniper in Iraq and now on 24 hour call in Washington D.C. for "homeland security" in the Marines.

 

His answer was fairly streight forward...

 

Uncle Bill, unlike the past I signed up for the military I was not forced or drafted...I see things everyday that would make most people puke...but I signed the dotted line and I am proud to do what little I can do for my country...

 

My superiors do everything they can to properly train me and prepare me for what I've got to do but alot I learn in the field and I guess when I get out that training will stay with me and if I need more help I will learn in the field....

 

Maybe some of our children need to have a better understanding of what it truly means to be in the military before they sign the dotted line...

 

My son Cody took the time to ask questions and felt that maybe the military was not for him and opted for the drop clause before the final commitment and I am happy he made the right decision for himself.

[Lets_Play_Two]

I think you all will find that the stigma associated with admitting and asking for treatment of mental health issues varies by geography in the US, too. There's more stigma associated with it in the south than the west coast, for instance.

 

If you have a therapist in Arkansas, the presumption is that something is wrong. If you don't have one in California, the same thing is true--something is wrong.

 

That's a gross generalization, but I see very different levels of stigma attached to mental health issues based on geography.

 

There is plenty of stigma around here. I'm hoping that when Bullett gets home she can tell you a bit about how having a "psych" issue affects you in the medical and legal systems. I think she would council a loved one to avoid treatment unless their condition was very serious because having a psych record is so devastating down the road.

 

Let me put my two cents in here as a mental health professional, one who works in a drug and alcohol residential treatment facility. I would be naive to suggest that there is not a stigma at times to seeking mental health treatment, but it has nothing to do with the treatment, but the way it is paid for. At times we don't stop and think about this process even though the same thing happens every time you go to the doctor. In order for the dr. or mental health professional to get paid by an insurance company there needs to be a diagnosis. You break you leg and the diagnosis is "broken leg" and the dr. gets paid if your insurance covers broken legs.

 

The same thing happens when you go see a therapist. This diagnosis comes from a 932 page document know as the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders---DSM-IV-TR for short. It would be great if there were a code for "feels sad", but unfortunately there is not. You go to a therapist because you feel sad and want your insurance company to pay for the treatment (as limited as it might be) you will get a diagnosis that will follow you around and it is likely to be "Major Depressive Disorder", or "Depressive Disorder Not Otherwise Specified", or the diagnosis dejure these days "Bipolar II Disorder". It is likely you would not even be aware of this until some future time that you allow someone to look at your medical records. So what do you do if you are just sad and want to talk to a professional??? Pay for it your self--DO NOT involve your insurance company. You pay for it and if someone asks me what the diagnosis was, I tell them it is none of their business!!

[tallman]

October 4, 1986.

CBS News reports that over 100,000 Vietnam Vets have committed suicide.

1999

CDC Study shows that actual number was closer to 6,500.

 

When adjusted for Sex, age, race, the current rate is not different from the general population.

 

The same scenario was played out after Vietnam.

By the same network.

All research today shows that the Vietnam Vet is not the CBS News stereotype that they portrayed for so many years.

 

Statistics indicate that compared with peers who did not serve Vietnam veterans are:

More likely to have attended college.

More likely to be married.

Less likely to be unemployed.

No more or less likely to be imprisoned.

CBS NEWS reported differently, based on their “investigative” findings.

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051111/news_lz1n11vets.html

 

Enough already.

Trauma, stress, suicide, are major problems, for all of Society.

Rates among Native Americans are unbelievable.

One death is too many.

[Bheckel169]

I think we're beating this up and losing the thread to who has the best data to support his argument. But, I can't resist sharing some more statistics if you're interested.

Wednesday, November 14, 2007

[Eugene Volokh, November 14, 2007 at 7:34pm] Trackbacks

"A CBS News Investigation Uncovers A Suicide Rate for Veterans Twice That of Other Americans" -- Or Does It? The quote is drawn from this CBS News story, with results that CBS labels "stunning." And the story claims that the stunning results indeed remain robust when one controls for sex. Here's the data on the Methodolgy page:

 

Results for 2004

 

Overall Rates

Veterans: 17.5 to 21.8 per 100,000

Non-Veterans: 9.4 per 100,000

 

Male Rates

Veterans: 30.6 to 38.3 per 100,000

Non-Veterans: 18.3 per 100,000

 

Female Rates

Veterans: 10.0 to 12.5 per 100,000

Non-Veterans: 4.8 per 100,000

 

Results for 2005

 

Overall Rates

Veterans: 18.7 to 20.8 per 100,000

Non-Veterans: 8.9 per 100,000

 

Male Rates

Veterans: 31.5 to 35.3 per 100,000

Non-Veterans: 17.6 per 100,000

 

Female Rates

Veterans: 11.1 to 12.3 per 100,000

Non-Veterans: 4.5 per 100,000

 

Yet here's something odd about the data: For the overall rates to correspond to the male and female rates, the veteran pool would have to be 62% to 64% female, and the nonveteran pool would have to be about 66% female. Check it out, for instance, with the lower bounds on the 2005 data: 11.1 x 0.63 (female) + 31.5 x 0.37 (male) = a bit under 18.7 (overall).

 

Or, if you prefer, consider a veteran pool of 23 million people. You'd need:

 

14.5 million (23 million x 0.63) women, or 145 hundred-thousands, with 1610 suicides (145 x 11.1) and

8.5 million (23 million x .037) men, or 85 hundred-thousands, with 2680 suicides (85 x 31.5) to get

a total of 4290 suicides (a bit under 18.7 per 100,000) for the whole 23 million.

 

That can't be right. The VA reports that the veteran pool is only 7% female, which means that if the CBS News overall veteran and female veteran numbers are right, then the male veteran numbers would be 19.27 to 21.4 in 2005 and 18.06 to 22.5 in 2004, not far from the male suicide rate of about 17.7 per year (see WISQARS). Of course, we can't tell which of the CBS numbers are right — but it does seem like they can't all be right. Plus of course you can't have a population that's about 51% female but at the same time 62-64% female among veterans and 66% female among nonveterans.

You can imagine our confusion when we depend on studies that use statistical evidence to support that conclusion. Working backwards, we'd probably find that the numbers used in the CBS investigation have to have been poorly researched with such obvious discrepancies as male/female percentages per 100,000.

Bruce

 

 

[Twisties]

Bruce,

 

Thank you for that last. That does seem like an issue. Looking over Volokh's user comments I noticed this link cited:

 

Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health

 

Another study that came up with a two to one rate in male veterans (females not studied). This is a peer reviewed journal.

 

At this point I'm right back where I started, all I know for sure is that the OP is a tragedy that struck me hard.

 

Jan

[KDeline]

What did all these solders think they were getting into when they VOLUNTEERED for the services? Throwing marshmallows? Should have thought it out before signing on the line.

[Mister Tee]

What did all these solders think they were getting into when they VOLUNTEERED for the services? Throwing marshmallows? Should have thought it out before signing on the line.

 

I have to agree with you on this. I fought in a war I'm not allowed to talk about to this day, and I saw plenty of good people die - mostly by the "enemy" and accidents, and a few by suicide. You start to lose distinction of how they died, they just served now they're gone and you move along.

 

The fear I have is that the fallout from this is the armed services will be turned into a bunch of coddled p****ys, unable to be trained properly, or to be placed into duty when the need arises.

 

We unfortunately have a situation in our military at the present time where it becomes necessary to recruit the people that would have otherwise been rejected for suitability when the strength and readiness of our forces was higher. That's half the equation. The other half is, quite frankly, women are becoming increasingly placed in unsuitable duty assignments, a subject on which I could rant for hours.

 

I don't have the answer here. Yes she and other suicidal service members should have been afforded professional help. And then either reassigned or discharged, as appropriate.

[Twisties]

The other half is, quite frankly, women are becoming increasingly placed in unsuitable duty assignments, a subject on which I could rant for hours.

 

Well, we made it 36 hours before this bit of ugly trash came up. I pm'd beemerman2k yesterday that this thread was evidence that we had at least gotten to the point where gender wasn't the first thing we thought of. I almost was beginning to think we were going to scrape through without seeing it all.

 

Factually, it seems all the numbers indicate that male military suicide normalized rates are higher than female normalized rates, so it's very difficult to see how women's roles are the problem here.

 

Jan

 

 

[Twisties]

What did all these solders think they were getting into when they VOLUNTEERED for the services? Throwing marshmallows? Should have thought it out before signing on the line.

 

That's just plain ugly and not in the least helpful.

 

Jan

[Lets_Play_Two]

The other half is, quite frankly, women are becoming increasingly placed in unsuitable duty assignments, a subject on which I could rant for hours.

 

Well, we made it 36 hours before this bit of ugly trash came up. I pm'd beemerman2k yesterday that this thread was evidence that we had at least gotten to the point where gender wasn't the first thing we thought of. I almost was beginning to think we were going to scrape through without seeing it all.

 

Factually, it seems all the numbers indicate that male military suicide normalized rates are higher than female normalized rates, so it's very difficult to see how women's roles are the problem here.

 

Jan

 

 

FWIW, in the general population more women than men attempt suicide, but more men than women are successful. However, I could see where a military woman might choose a means with higher lethality.

[Mister Tee]

The other half is, quite frankly, women are becoming increasingly placed in unsuitable duty assignments, a subject on which I could rant for hours.

 

Well, we made it 36 hours before this bit of ugly trash came up. I pm'd beemerman2k yesterday that this thread was evidence that we had at least gotten to the point where gender wasn't the first thing we thought of. I almost was beginning to think we were going to scrape through without seeing it all.

 

Factually, it seems all the numbers indicate that male military suicide normalized rates are higher than female normalized rates, so it's very difficult to see how women's roles are the problem here.

 

Jan

 

 

Well you're wrong. You're wrong to think this is all about gender (it isn't, but gender plays a role) and you're wrong to think that some PC outlook on the world where we all make each other equal is the solution to the problem.

 

But regarding the gender part, you may have not figured this out yet, but men and women happen to be different. They think different. They act different. They have different motivators. Why is it necessary to group all people in to exactly the same category? Does it appeal to your PC sense of equality?

 

My message? Let's play on each other's strengths for betterment of a common good, not force everyone to try to be equal.

 

Sorry to taze you bro but you drew first blood.

[awagnon]

What did all these solders think they were getting into when they VOLUNTEERED for the services? Throwing marshmallows? Should have thought it out before signing on the line.

 

I spent 22 years in the military and agree with the original post, it is a tragedy when anyone, male or female takes their own life. Many people join the service based on glamorous military advertisements of travel, etc. Sometimes they're sold a bill of goods that isn't reality and it's too late once they get to basic training. As a physician in the military I saw many depressed soldiers. They would come in for other reasons, not wanting a mental disorder on their records. If fact, they often wouldn't go to the doctor for significant medical problems, either, for fear it would result in their discharge or assignment restrictions. It isn't like in civilian life where your medical or psychological problems are easily kept separate from your profession. Many would go to civilian doctors and psychologists and pay out of pocket in order to keep it off their records.

 

Also, the length of combat tours is much greater and repeated more frequently with less "in between training" than in SE Asia and other conflicts. This creates a greater strain on service men and women and their families. This was not how it was presented to them when they signed up to throw marshmallows.

[Twisties]

The other half is, quite frankly, women are becoming increasingly placed in unsuitable duty assignments, a subject on which I could rant for hours.

 

Well, we made it 36 hours before this bit of ugly trash came up. I pm'd beemerman2k yesterday that this thread was evidence that we had at least gotten to the point where gender wasn't the first thing we thought of. I almost was beginning to think we were going to scrape through without seeing it all.

 

Factually, it seems all the numbers indicate that male military suicide normalized rates are higher than female normalized rates, so it's very difficult to see how women's roles are the problem here.

 

Jan

 

 

Well you're wrong. You're wrong to think this is all about gender (it isn't, but gender plays a role) and you're wrong to think that some PC outlook on the world where we all make each other equal is the solution to the problem.

 

But regarding the gender part, you may have not figured this out yet, but men and women happen to be different. They think different. They act different. They have different motivators. Why is it necessary to group all people in to exactly the same category? Does it appeal to your PC sense of equality?

 

My message? Let's play on each other's strengths for betterment of a common good, not force everyone to try to be equal.

 

Sorry to taze you bro but you drew first blood.

 

My concern is forced inequality.