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rdfrantz

Master Yoda's Riding Position

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rdfrantz

"Dick Frantz' Riding Position" gets referred to a lot on several forums of the BMWRT.COM Discussion Board. It turns out that when its PRICIPLES are applied to create certain kinds of body part relationships that it applies to almost all motorcycles. I view that as a "Perspective" to share, and my words as direction toward things to look at, and seeing, to learn what might make things better for you all.

 

So, I thought I'd write up a "short version" of it, and SAVE it somewhere. In the next few days, I'll build it into a comprehensive Article that can be referred to anytime -- and hopefully we'll get recourses to build us a FAQ particularly for those unfamiliar with the K1200RS, and place it there with the many, many things we've all found out about the K1200RS.

 

 

First, the K1200RS is NOT a Sport Bike. It is a Sport Tourer, and has characteristics that make it very strong at that task or that kind of riding. That also makes it LOOK LIKE a Sport Bike, and also DO THINGS that are considered strong points of Sport Bikes. From my perspective, the KRS is not better than "good" at being a Sport Bike, except that it rises to "very good" or even to "exceptional" at things like Linear Response; Handling Uneven Road Surfaces; Stability in All Cornering Modes; Stability Leaving Corners; and Braking. It also does All Day Sporty Riding at an elevated level, something that MASTER YODA expects from Sport Bikes (and is absent in the current Race Replicas that are CALLED Sport Bikes).

 

The "All Day Comfort Thing", is REQUIRED of a Sport Tourer. When someone finds that absent in the K1200RS, I question how they are operating it. True, individual physiology, our frigging size(S), and any deficiencies (I have two VERY injured knees), can effect how ANY riding configuration is responded to, and then thought about. But, I consider that any fairly healthy person who falls within perhaps the 95th percentile of sizes can be, or BECOME comfortable riding the bike. Why? IT WAS BUILT TO PROVIDE THAT.

 

 

You sit ON TOP OF a Sport Bike. You sit WITHIN a K1200RS.

 

Sport Bikes REQUIRE getting weight OFF YOUR BUTT so the rider can slide his/her butt inside corners to effect a different CG. CONSEQUENTLY, Sport Bikes INDUCE "weight on the handle bars".

 

Someone sitting on a K1200RS will note some ergonomic differences, and FALL TOWARD, positioning their body AS IF they were riding a Sport Bike. DUMB!!!! Well, not so much dumb as UNINFORMED. They've PREJUDICED, rather than EXAMINED.

 

They probably also CARRY FORWARD certain muscle memories DEVELOPED, NOT BORN WITH, from riding other conveyances, SOME of which can have been motorcycles. ARM CHAIRS come to mind wink.gif In short, people have LEARNED... TO SIT UPRIGHT. It is NOT in fact a FUNCTION for which the human body was designed ---- AND continued practice CAUSES DAMAGE.

 

AUTOMOBILES PROMULGATE THE SEATED POSTION. Only lately have they applied several things like Lumbar Support to keep that position from KILLING the user. Oh... forgive my hyperbole, but SITTING UP just is NOT good for you.

 

MOST motorcycles CONTINUE THE PROMUGATION. To one degree or another, they emulate "Sit Upright" (So much so that the term UJM, Universal Japanese Motorcycle, was partially defined by a riding position called "Sit Up and BEG", like a puppy.). This position became A MENTAL NORM. We THINK that's "how a motorcycle is ridden" -- HUGE numbers of us. Well, the important thing to remember is YOU LEARNED to do it that way (Remember how you BECAME ABLE to ride for longer and longer periods?): You can LEARN "something else".

 

 

The largest, developed, muscle memory is the angle between torso and thighs. This is controlled by the LARGEST muscles involved in riding. We set that PATTERN, not an "exactness" very early in American life by our caregivers "Sitting Us in Chairs". Note that SOUTHEAST ASIAN PEOPLES go about TEACHING their kids to SQUAT, and that brings on an ENTIRELY DIFFERNT THIGH/TORSO relationship. In fact, that posture is MUCH MORE COMMON ACROSS ALL OF ASIA. Anybody care to guess where JAPAN is located? People sitting on tatami mats, or with feet and legs folded beneath their butt -- and THUS, torsos leaned forward? Hmmmmm.

 

Anyway, some things can be difficult to overcome for some folks --- WHEN they have become HABITS rather than cognizant, controlled RESPONSES. A great example is about leaning motorcycles in corners. The human develops a sense of danger when leaning any farther than they can do so when STANDING UP. HUGE danger signals are sent when lean angle extends much beyond the angle the neck can be bent AND STILL KEEP THE EYES LEVEL (20 to 30 degrees). It's OUR Response to BODY SIGNALS I'm referring to that can make up our "sense" of our comfort levels. Those things can CHANGE --- WHEN WE CONTROLTHEM, rather than the other way round.

 

The K1200RS calls for, was DESIGNED TO PROMOTE a CANTED FORWARD RIDING POSITION. Yes, very much, this was done on purpose by BMW. They knew it was REQUIRED to get the K1200RS performing to the desired levels, AND, very much, KEEP the rider COMFORTABLE for LONG PERIODS OF TIME, in the regimes where the bike was intended to be most often used (i.e. NOT riding on city streets). It all starts with a LOW SEATING POSITION -- NOT high, like a Sport Bike.

 

BMW then set out to DISCOVER, "what else" needed to be done to: 1) ADD comfort to this position (Provide a supporting airflow); 2) SUPPORT the position (Move the pegs downward, but still allow GOOD clearance when cornering to SPORT TOURING levels); 3) Reduce effort to maintain the position (Move them FORWARD to change the "Support Vector").

 

THIS REMOVES THE NEED TO PLACE ANY WEIGHT ON THE HANDLE BARS. Do so if you wish, but you'll pay the price in Comfort. AND, you'll find that you MAKE THE BIKE FEEL DULL AND UNRESPONSIVE, when compared to properly, YES, PROPERLY, distributing your weight about the bike. "Properly" is appropriate here in light of GAINING the Performance Qualities BMW BUILT INTO the bike. And, this should give some insight into WHY Motorcycle Magazines don't seem to find the riding qualities we owners do when they test the K1200RS: THEY ARE RIDING IT WRONG -- Differently than it was designed to BE RIDDEN.

 

 

The keynotes to "the" Riding Position are:

  • Bend at the HIPS, not waist
  • Maintain a SLIGHT arch to the back, not allowing it ever to "curve"
  • Move the butt AFT so the weight is OVER YOUR FEET.
  • Apply pressure to the feet, using the THIGH muscles, so you are sitting "lightly"
  • ELBOWS BENT, now DROP the hands to the bars.

 

One needs to move fore and aft on the seat to make ALL those things happen. Except for the Hip Bend, they are NOT Absolutes, but rather RANGES. Move about until you can see ALL of them are happening to some extent -- and NO weight is being placed on the handlebars.

 

Do this when the bike is STATIONARY. Sit on the stopped bike. TAKE TIME TO do this. PRACTICE. LEARN.

 

In fact, one must TEACH their own body. This is called TRAINING. You'll notice all GOOD training is done by ABSTRACT EXERCISES, not "just running off to the playing field and doing what you HEARD."

 

LEARN to press down with the feet. Then, when riding, CHECK that's what you are actually doing. You SHOULD be able to lift your butt off the seat at a milisecond's notice: As when knowingly approaching a severe bump in the road.

 

LEARN to bend at the hips. Do it BOTH ways, and show YOURSELF that you CAN operate the body differently. BE WILLING to touch that frigging gas tank. SOME people are incredibly fearful of touching a gas tank -- It's almost laughable. WHO SAID you shouldn't touch the gas tank? (Afraid of scratches? Poo, poo. Get some clear tank protector.) Better to think "The gas tank is my FRIEND." It WILL be some day when you are six hundred miles into your ride and still two hundred miles from your destination. OR, while you are LEARNING to ride this bike and may be only an hour or so into your ride. Your body is NOT YET... TRAINED to operate that way.

 

FLOP YOUR ELBOWS. PROVE you have your weight supported, mostly by your feet, and by your butt. Do it while riding too. Even after 25,000 miles on an RS I STILL end up leaning onto the bars somewhat and need to readjust my position.

 

 

Many people will need to CHANGE the riding position they use for riding on the K1200RS. Understand one OPERATES their body to do virtually anything (except things like sleep, and even there...). Because "Sit Up" is so common in our lives, it can come to seem we are not OPERATING the body, even to "just sit". But, sit on a wooden stool for six hours and send me your impressions of what you encounter. ALL OF IT is something called WORK.

 

On bikes LIKE the K1200RS (Aprilia Falco and ZZ-R1200 come to mind) a MODERATE riding position is called for, but one that is still a CHANGE for some folks. What one must do, is FIRST Change One's Mind. Then, go about changing one's USE of one's body. Mind controls Body (In HEALTY people).

 

DO IT RIGHT. Take the time to sit on the stationary bike every day when you first get it (or go do a Test Ride). Flex, tighten, relax, and move about across a small but definite range of positions on the bike. Then, "get it right" and without moving, FLEX all your body muscles, in order, from the feet toward the hands and head. FEEL what that feels like when you relax each muscle, and are STILL holding the proper Riding Position. Close your eyes and FEEL IT. Not ALL the muscles are FULLY relaxed. You are USING some of them. How? How much? To do WHAT?

 

Then, when you've done that for all the body's muscles (even the ones you don't THINK you are using), Flex them ALL, and relax and FEEL IT OVER ALL. Even go so far as to "stand back 10 feet and look at yourself" if you can. Feel and See.

 

Now, in your ride, attempt to maintain THAT position (with appropriate changes to handle riding circumstances) for as long in your ride as you can. When you tire, STOP. Get off the bike and bend, stretch, and flex all your muscles. WALK until your walking feels normal. Then get back on the bike IN THE PROPER POSTION THAT YOU CHECKED BEFORE RIDING OFF, and repeat. You'll find you ride longer and longer, and comfort GROWS AND GROWS. Eventually, IT WILL SEEM NORMAL.

 

One note is that if you notice "being tense", either some "bulk of muscles are being tight", or that you have "a pain" or "a tight cord" or some other sharp discomfort, do stop. You are COMPENSATING for something that has ALREADY become tired. You should have stopped sooner, and you need to develop THAT muscle that you tired out. Right then, it will be had to find that muscle, so NEXT time you start riding, do a better job before riding off of FINDING what muscles you really need to use to hold that positions (like you hold ANY position). Then ride in perhaps a less intense environment so you can PAY ATTENTION to shifts in your muscles use, and PARTICULARLY, Elbow Flopping, Butt Lifting, and Neck Twisting. I promise, if you are doing this CORRECTLY, pains should disappear, and NOT be present. But note, that even MASTER YODA gets tired, his MUSCLES get tired during a 14 hour riding day... and sometimes a SIX hour riding day.

 

USE YOUR THIGH MUSCLES. They are the most powerful in your body. And, they tire less and less quickly. Place your body weight so THEY can be doing the work. Even with bad knees and a bad back, I can ride this lovely performing machine from sunset to long past sunrise. And, many guys can ride longer than I do. Dammit.

 

 

Blessings to you all.

 

rdf

 

 

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SageRider

As usual, a fascinating, interesting, and informative article.

Thank you!

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BWS

Its been awhile Dick,howya doin?I agree with your assesment.Living in extreme twistys and learning the "old fashioned way"(figuring it out for myself)I only have a cple of thoughts to add.Your idea about leaning a M/C over

is righton.This is one of the 12s strongpoints,how comfortable a rider is at extreme lean angles.Have had many discussions,usually ending up heated,with squidly remarks,or take it to the track responses.But the amt. of control and ease that the K handles corners has to be experienced.I have 36k on my '00,95% of which has been in twistys.Think about it,my K has spent practically its entire existance at some sort of lean angle.Building strong thigh muscles will reward you with a much more pleasant,safer ride.Upper body development,may not be quite as important but will/can get you out of trouble.Cold tyres,gravel,slow speed handling all can make for little oops,upper body strength seems to help.Personally,I "ride the tank",and have the scuffs on paint to prove it.But as you said getting into instead of onto K is correct.I tend to scoot foward wedging privates into tank while using feet to apply a little back pressure on pegs.This frees up torso,to better handle other minor issues.It also locks in your "offside" during corners allowing you to pickup inside foot,reposition,then wieght peg as much or as little as required.Relaxing elbows cannot be STRESSED enough,and further,say when viewing your posture from the side while riding.The angle that your forearms present should be worked on.Basically they should be flat,but setting up for a braking maneuver they should angle slightly down,towards bars,but still bent at elbow.Keep practicing this till it becomes second nature.Try holding on with inner thighs during panick braking to take stress off arms and upper body.Later Brian

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Mjames

In reply to:

The largest, developed, muscle memory is the angle between torso and thighs... We set that PATTERN, not an "exactness" very early in American life by our caregivers "Sitting Us in Chairs". Note that SOUTHEAST ASIAN PEOPLES go about TEACHING their kids to SQUAT, and that brings on an ENTIRELY DIFFERNT THIGH/TORSO relationship.


As a student of the Alexander Technique, Alexander teaches at length on this very issue. It's not just Asian's who "sit" correctly but just look at any young child. Young children naturally bend where the torso meets the thighs – the hip joint. Young children always bend at the JOINTS. Never inbetween. Children naturally adopt the squat, or sit in a "perch" position. You will never see them bending or hunched over at the waist. This happens LATER. Usually when they start school and start sitting in chairs that don’t fit and are badly designed.

 

On a whole Asians sit much better than we do, as well as the so called "primitive" cultures such as the Australian Aborigines or tribal Africa. It’s not so much that these people are taught to squat as children, as it is they are NOT taught not to. That’s really what Alexander Technique is all about. It’s not so much a "learning" process but an "unlearning" process of bad habits.

 

This unlearning takes place throught a series of lessons using a mechanism called "inhibition" combined with conscious "direction." The idea is to eventually brings our body back to where we started. And as the body returns to a more natural state, the mind remarkably follows.

 

If you adopt Master Yoda’s instructions, you will be in a more natural riding position. But any "child" could have told you that. smile.gif

 

 

 

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rdfrantz

James, you are so very correct.

 

I didn't want to get into that, already needing to redirect attention from the main subject a few times to make some points. AND, I didn't believe I could express it NEARLY as well as you have. In my heart I simply feel the Buddha said, "Do what comes naturally."

 

When I teach riding, or particularly Shooting to children, especially girls who don't tend to develop strong ego, "ME can FORCE it" thoughts more common to boys, they "Just Do It", and so wonderfully well. They operate their bodies like little ballerina angels, and that is JUST what's needed in Shooting -- And very much anathematical to boys. Boys have had to STRAIN to surpass their current muscle development to excel. In so doing they flex their body (back) between the joints. They "round" their shoulders. They lock their shoulders, AND ELBOWS, so they can apply force with larger muscles in actions like throwing. When a SUPPLE sport like Golf comes along for adults, we spend sometimes HUNDREDS of hours getting them to undo that LOCKED "posture", and the sense of FORCE application, and again operate naturally --- like KIDS.

 

It might be VERY helpful if you could POST some information about The Alexander Technique -- along with links or references to it. It might save many folks a lot of time "Getting Back to Nature". Would you please?

 

 

You point out the heart method of my Instruction Technique. I now apply it to all the venues I teach or coach in:

  • Do it THIS way. (Usually manipulating them into a position)
  • What did you EXPERIENCE?
  • What was the RESULT?
  • How did that FEEL? (Mostly BODY, but other conceptions are appropriate too - especially to Mastery.)
  • OK. Set up CORRECTLY again.
  • Good. Repeat.

 

What's most important in this is THEIR Experience.

 

Some people are thought to learn "better" (more quickly?) from Visual media, others Audible. But everyone finally forms THEIR OWN CONCEPTION of what they do to succeed. Starting there makes considerable sense. And, with older folks who have developed a pattern of, or need to, "figure it out" beforehand, it short circuits that process that can lead down so, so many "wrong" roads, confusing them, wasting their time, and bringing frustration. Really quickly they can "see" what it is that works. THEN, they can go about "describing it to themselves." HOW they describe it may not make ANY sense to you or me.

 

That also brings up the method's ability to overcome lack of, and mis-, understandings about Language and its Meanings. It even allows "silent" teaching, and is very effective with the deaf and blind (And at least SOMETIMES, even I am certain I'm one, the other, or both of those things).

 

The Mind WILL follow the body. When the Mind, or one's other "faculties" might be a hindrance, it is good to LEAD with the body. The important thing is to Develop Conception, for always, in ACTION, it is the Mind which Leads the Body. Once an IMAGE, and the clearer the better, can be developed, the person now has the chance to turn that into Reality. However THEY think they do that.

 

And, remember that Image, and the highly touted "Envision", is more than just visual. Our mental images can contain all our perceptions, and many of those are more important than simply what it looks like. How it FEELS is very important to dynamic motion activities -- like Motorcycling.

 

 

Becoming familiar with the techniques, and the principles, within the Alexander Technique can provide a basis to make learning Physical Actions much easier for all of us.

 

MTFBWY

 

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Mjames

In reply to:

It might be VERY helpful if you could POST some information about The Alexander Technique -- along with links or references to it.


 

Someone once said that if you can't explain something in twenty-five words or less, then it isn't worth knowing. Well, the Alexander Technique is a big exception to this, as it works on so many different levels. I'll post some links later, but since it is "experience" oriented, you can only get so much from reading about it.

 

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ghan

Good write up Dick, seems I found this site and your exceptionally fine explanaitions on proper riding position after I discovered them for myself through trial and error and letting the bike tell me how it should be ridden. One question though, you said "Maintain a SLIGHT arch to the back, not allowing it ever to "curve"

 

Particularly what part of the back are you referring to as the back has 3 distinct parts with 2 different curvatures. Specifically cervical - lordotic curve, thoracic - kyphotic curve, lumbar - lordotic curve. The natural slight lordotic curvature of the lumber spine can get straightened out or even become a slight kyphosis when leaning forward if you lean incorrectly and bend at the waist and not bend as you describe at the hips. I guess my question is what do you differentiate by "arch" and "curve" and what part of the spine? I assumed you were referring to the lumbar region.

 

Again, good write up and keeps the words of wisdom coming.

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Mjames

In reply to:

It might be VERY helpful if you could POST some information about The Alexander Technique -- along with links or references to it.


Just posted in "Ride Well" Forum.

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RXGOLF

Great points!! I just printed them all out. I am lucky in that I can be taught to do most things quickly. However, this is the insight I needed in order to change a very good ride into great ones. It is much easier to copy a sucessful idea, than to explore all of the right and wrong ways on your own.

 

 

 

Sincerely Thanks!!

 

Greg

 

 

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rdfrantz

Oh CRAP!! We WOULD have to have a Thoracic Specialist on board!! wink.gif

 

So... Back Arch:

 

Sit in chair;

Use hands on knees as support;

Bend forward until chest touches or comes closest to knees;

Straighten back;

Remove hands as support;

Lift head up as far as possible, and look forward;

Bring shoulders back as far as possible

Raise torso 3/4 to upright.

 

99% of folks now have a "slightly arched back". There should be a distinct but mild tightness in the lower back, or lumbar region. The "thoracic" area (That's the area you can feel "between your shoulders") is what I conceive to be "neutral" having its normal bend.

 

This is a "good" posture for the lumbar region, the area where the majority of back suffering is encountered, especially by Riders. The ERECTION of the back is being conducted by a CONTINUOUS host of muscles from "butt" to "brain". This is EASY to feel and accomplish, and learn to maintain.

 

So... "Curve" is any bend forward that comes from NOT holding that "erecting tension".

 

 

This "erecting tension" also particularly provides support for that area between the shoulders. Some of us are somewhat weak or injured here (My T5 vertebra often pops out of place). Part of that problem comes from ROUNDING THE SHOULDERS FORWARD.

 

With bikes that do/SEEM/look like they have a "long reach to the bars", some of us are prompted to round our shoulders forward to help reach them. It's better to give away SOME elbow bend if really needed, rather than do that rounding which will later cause fatigue and pain. And, as well, in order to do that rounding, some of the "erection tension" must be given away... and things begin to go to Hades in a hand basket

 

 

One will find this "erection tension" is better not "practiced in a vacuum". It is SUPPORTED BY LEG MUSCLES... despite any mystery you may have as to why. Don't believe it? OK, try:

 

Sit with at least half your thighs overhanging the seat of a chair;

Achieve the "slightly arched back posture with the torso leaning forward about 45 degrees";

Now, lift both feet one inch off the floor.

 

Hmmmm.

 

 

This posture has a slightly, or radical, forward lean. The more lean, the more aft the butt must be placed behind the feet to produce BALANCE. Remember the LEGS provide the supporting power... THOUGH foot contact with the footpegs. One is balanced OVER the feet (Screw Rear-Sets. BMW built the K1200RS as a Sport Tourer, not a Sport Bike).

 

With greater forward leans, we encounter resistance from uh... er... the Middle of the body -- perhaps moreso for those of us who are fond of large quantities of malt beverages. wink.gif Some find it easier to accomplish greater forward leans if the thighs are angled outward somewhat.

 

I teach an exercise to help strengthen what we use to support this Riding Posture that incorporates that slightly splayed leg position:

 

Standing, bend SLIGHTLY at the knees, and place hands on them to support your back;

Spread feet to just beyond shoulder width;

Point feet and thighs outward so a 30 to 45 degree angle is achieved between them;

Straighten the back, and arch it backward slightly --- Hold that throughout;

Keeping the feet FLAT ON THE FLOOR, squat until thighs are parallel to the floor;

Hold that for 10 seconds;

Keeping the posture, raise the butt about 3 inches --- hold for three seconds;

Return to thighs level and hold for three seconds;

Repeat rise and fall 10 times.

End.

 

As one becomes accustomed to this exercise, one can hold the "raised" position for longer and longer periods. Eventually one can get so they can hold it for several minutes, but this doesn't do as much good as holding it for a few seconds and MOVING back an forth. The PURPOSE is not only to strengthen the muscles, but to IDENTIFY them, so you are certain THAT is what you are using when you mount the bike and ride off. So if you can hold it more than 10 seconds 10 times, increase the reps.

 

Very best wishes.

 

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ghan

So... "Curve" is any bend forward that comes from NOT holding that "erecting tension".

 

We call that a kyphotic curve and the thoracic spine does have a small natural kyphotic curvature, but it's a bad thing to happen to the lumbar region. Your exercises for maintaining proper lumbar lordosis and reducing thoracic lordosis are spot on. The comment about movement is equally important because maintaining "erecting tension" WILL cause muscle fatigue and eventually lead to pain despite the proper posture. Any body held in one position will ache after some time, movement is what it's made for.

 

Also your comments about the rounded shoulders are great. Holding the shoulders in a forward rounded position is what often leads to that "ice pick between the shoulder blades" feeling that nags so many. That's because of the stress on the rhomboid muscles, levator scapuli muscles and the facet joints of the thoracic vertabrae. Again movement would help, never getting in that position for any length of time is the best prevention.

 

Good write up Dick

 

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rodneyrx

Very Interesting....!

I just purchased a slightly used 2002 K12 in Missouri ..... and am working my way back to Arizona. I've put 3,000 miles on it during the last week. I'll have to learn the techniques mentioned; but I owned a 1997 RT that several years ago I rode to the east coast, down to the Carolinas and home. A couple of things that drove me crazy on the RT were the seat (a sore butt), lack of cruise control and the lack of a 6th gear.

I can't believe I have yet to have a sore butt from the RS (came with a Sargeant seat), only I do get sore around the sides of my knees, although the RT was worse (I am allergic to exercise).

So far, everything has been wonderful and better than expected except the windshield which doesn't block 30 degree air on my hands! Can you imagine?

Well, thanks for the posts as my final decision was based on viewing and thinking about the information received from this forum.

Believe me, this K12 is a wonderful machine for me. I loved the RT also.

A car dealer I know once said "There is a seat for every ass." Well, this ass has found his seat.

"Betty" is going to have to go. Sorry girl, but I'm not a GL kind of guy.

 

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mcoyote

Like I told Paul Mihalka today at Bob's:

 

"Yeah, and it really got good last month when I figured out how

to ride the thing!"

Edited by mcoyote

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Mjames

In reply to:

Note that SOUTHEAST ASIAN PEOPLES go about TEACHING their kids to SQUAT


Dick, In my elevator today I saw an 18 month old boy go into a perfect full squat with heels flat on ground. Immediately, his mother tugged on his arm and said, "stand up!" I was about to say something but figured she'd never understand.

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rdfrantz

That's a beauty, Mark.

 

Thanks.

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gene
"Dick Frantz' Riding Position" gets referred to a lot on several forums of the BMWRT.COM Discussion Board. It turns out that when its PRICIPLES are applied to create certain kinds of body part relationships that it applies to almost all motorcycles. I view that as a "Perspective" to share, and my words as direction toward things to look at, and seeing, to learn what might make things better for you all.

<br>

<br>So, I thought I'd write up a "short version" of it, and SAVE it somewhere. In the next few days, I'll build it into a comprehensive Article that can be referred to anytime -- and hopefully we'll get recourses to build us a FAQ particularly for those unfamiliar with the K1200RS, and place it there with the many, many things we've all found out about the K1200RS.

<br>

<br>

<br>First, the K1200RS is NOT a Sport Bike. It is a Sport Tourer, and has characteristics that make it very strong at that task or that kind of riding. That also makes it LOOK LIKE a Sport Bike, and also DO THINGS that are considered strong points of Sport Bikes. From my perspective, the KRS is not better than "good" at being a Sport Bike, except that it rises to "very good" or even to "exceptional" at things like Linear Response; Handling Uneven Road Surfaces; Stability in All Cornering Modes; Stability Leaving Corners; and Braking. It also does All Day Sporty Riding at an elevated level, something that MASTER YODA expects from Sport Bikes (and is absent in the current Race Replicas that are CALLED Sport Bikes).

<br>

<br>The "All Day Comfort Thing", is REQUIRED of a Sport Tourer. When someone finds that absent in the K1200RS, I question how they are operating it. True, individual physiology, our frigging size(S), and any deficiencies (I have two VERY injured knees), can effect how ANY riding configuration is responded to, and then thought about. But, I consider that any fairly healthy person who falls within perhaps the 95th percentile of sizes can be, or BECOME comfortable riding the bike. Why? IT WAS BUILT TO PROVIDE THAT.

<br>

<br>

<br>You sit ON TOP OF a Sport Bike. You sit WITHIN a K1200RS.

<br>

<br>Sport Bikes REQUIRE getting weight OFF YOUR BUTT so the rider can slide his/her butt inside corners to effect a different CG. CONSEQUENTLY, Sport Bikes INDUCE "weight on the handle bars".

<br>

<br>Someone sitting on a K1200RS will note some ergonomic differences, and FALL TOWARD, positioning their body AS IF they were riding a Sport Bike. DUMB!!!! Well, not so much dumb as UNINFORMED. They've PREJUDICED, rather than EXAMINED.

<br>

<br>They probably also CARRY FORWARD certain muscle memories DEVELOPED, NOT BORN WITH, from riding other conveyances, SOME of which can have been motorcycles. ARM CHAIRS come to mind wink.gif In short, people have LEARNED... TO SIT UPRIGHT. It is NOT in fact a FUNCTION for which the human body was designed ---- AND continued practice CAUSES DAMAGE.

<br>

<br>AUTOMOBILES PROMULGATE THE SEATED POSTION. Only lately have they applied several things like Lumbar Support to keep that position from KILLING the user. Oh... forgive my hyperbole, but SITTING UP just is NOT good for you.

<br>

<br>MOST motorcycles CONTINUE THE PROMUGATION. To one degree or another, they emulate "Sit Upright" (So much so that the term UJM, Universal Japanese Motorcycle, was partially defined by a riding position called "Sit Up and BEG", like a puppy.). This position became A MENTAL NORM. We THINK that's "how a motorcycle is ridden" -- HUGE numbers of us. Well, the important thing to remember is YOU LEARNED to do it that way (Remember how you BECAME ABLE to ride for longer and longer periods?): You can LEARN "something else".

<br>

<br>

<br>The largest, developed, muscle memory is the angle between torso and thighs. This is controlled by the LARGEST muscles involved in riding. We set that PATTERN, not an "exactness" very early in American life by our caregivers "Sitting Us in Chairs". Note that SOUTHEAST ASIAN PEOPLES go about TEACHING their kids to SQUAT, and that brings on an ENTIRELY DIFFERNT THIGH/TORSO relationship. In fact, that posture is MUCH MORE COMMON ACROSS ALL OF ASIA. Anybody care to guess where JAPAN is located? People sitting on tatami mats, or with feet and legs folded beneath their butt -- and THUS, torsos leaned forward? Hmmmmm.

<br>

<br>Anyway, some things can be difficult to overcome for some folks --- WHEN they have become HABITS rather than cognizant, controlled RESPONSES. A great example is about leaning motorcycles in corners. The human develops a sense of danger when leaning any farther than they can do so when STANDING UP. HUGE danger signals are sent when lean angle extends much beyond the angle the neck can be bent AND STILL KEEP THE EYES LEVEL (20 to 30 degrees). It's OUR Response to BODY SIGNALS I'm referring to that can make up our "sense" of our comfort levels. Those things can CHANGE --- WHEN WE CONTROLTHEM, rather than the other way round.

<br>

<br>The K1200RS calls for, was DESIGNED TO PROMOTE a CANTED FORWARD RIDING POSITION. Yes, very much, this was done on purpose by BMW. They knew it was REQUIRED to get the K1200RS performing to the desired levels, AND, very much, KEEP the rider COMFORTABLE for LONG PERIODS OF TIME, in the regimes where the bike was intended to be most often used (i.e. NOT riding on city streets). It all starts with a LOW SEATING POSITION -- NOT high, like a Sport Bike.

<br>

<br>BMW then set out to DISCOVER, "what else" needed to be done to: 1) ADD comfort to this position (Provide a supporting airflow); 2) SUPPORT the position (Move the pegs downward, but still allow GOOD clearance when cornering to SPORT TOURING levels); 3) Reduce effort to maintain the position (Move them FORWARD to change the "Support Vector").

<br>

<br>THIS REMOVES THE NEED TO PLACE ANY WEIGHT ON THE HANDLE BARS. Do so if you wish, but you'll pay the price in Comfort. AND, you'll find that you MAKE THE BIKE FEEL DULL AND UNRESPONSIVE, when compared to properly, YES, PROPERLY, distributing your weight about the bike. "Properly" is appropriate here in light of GAINING the Performance Qualities BMW BUILT INTO the bike. And, this should give some insight into WHY Motorcycle Magazines don't seem to find the riding qualities we owners do when they test the K1200RS: THEY ARE RIDING IT WRONG -- Differently than it was designed to BE RIDDEN.

<br>

<br>

<br>The keynotes to "the" Riding Position are:

  • Bend at the HIPS, not waist
  • Maintain a SLIGHT arch to the back, not allowing it ever to "curve"
  • Move the butt AFT so the weight is OVER YOUR FEET.
  • Apply pressure to the feet, using the THIGH muscles, so you are sitting "lightly"
  • ELBOWS BENT, now DROP the hands to the bars.

<br>

<br>One needs to move fore and aft on the seat to make ALL those things happen. Except for the Hip Bend, they are NOT Absolutes, but rather RANGES. Move about until you can see ALL of them are happening to some extent -- and NO weight is being placed on the handlebars.

<br>

<br>Do this when the bike is STATIONARY. Sit on the stopped bike. TAKE TIME TO do this. PRACTICE. LEARN.

<br>

<br>In fact, one must TEACH their own body. This is called TRAINING. You'll notice all GOOD training is done by ABSTRACT EXERCISES, not "just running off to the playing field and doing what you HEARD."

<br>

<br>LEARN to press down with the feet. Then, when riding, CHECK that's what you are actually doing. You SHOULD be able to lift your butt off the seat at a milisecond's notice: As when knowingly approaching a severe bump in the road.

<br>

<br>LEARN to bend at the hips. Do it BOTH ways, and show YOURSELF that you CAN operate the body differently. BE WILLING to touch that frigging gas tank. SOME people are incredibly fearful of touching a gas tank -- It's almost laughable. WHO SAID you shouldn't touch the gas tank? (Afraid of scratches? Poo, poo. Get some clear tank protector.) Better to think "The gas tank is my FRIEND." It WILL be some day when you are six hundred miles into your ride and still two hundred miles from your destination. OR, while you are LEARNING to ride this bike and may be only an hour or so into your ride. Your body is NOT YET... TRAINED to operate that way.

<br>

<br>FLOP YOUR ELBOWS. PROVE you have your weight supported, mostly by your feet, and by your butt. Do it while riding too. Even after 25,000 miles on an RS I STILL end up leaning onto the bars somewhat and need to readjust my position.

<br>

<br>

<br>Many people will need to CHANGE the riding position they use for riding on the K1200RS. Understand one OPERATES their body to do virtually anything (except things like sleep, and even there...). Because "Sit Up" is so common in our lives, it can come to seem we are not OPERATING the body, even to "just sit". But, sit on a wooden stool for six hours and send me your impressions of what you encounter. ALL OF IT is something called WORK.

<br>

<br>On bikes LIKE the K1200RS (Aprilia Falco and ZZ-R1200 come to mind) a MODERATE riding position is called for, but one that is still a CHANGE for some folks. What one must do, is FIRST Change One's Mind. Then, go about changing one's USE of one's body. Mind controls Body (In HEALTY people).

<br>

<br>DO IT RIGHT. Take the time to sit on the stationary bike every day when you first get it (or go do a Test Ride). Flex, tighten, relax, and move about across a small but definite range of positions on the bike. Then, "get it right" and without moving, FLEX all your body muscles, in order, from the feet toward the hands and head. FEEL what that feels like when you relax each muscle, and are STILL holding the proper Riding Position. Close your eyes and FEEL IT. Not ALL the muscles are FULLY relaxed. You are USING some of them. How? How much? To do WHAT?

<br>

<br>Then, when you've done that for all the body's muscles (even the ones you don't THINK you are using), Flex them ALL, and relax and FEEL IT OVER ALL. Even go so far as to "stand back 10 feet and look at yourself" if you can. Feel and See.

<br>

<br>Now, in your ride, attempt to maintain THAT position (with appropriate changes to handle riding circumstances) for as long in your ride as you can. When you tire, STOP. Get off the bike and bend, stretch, and flex all your muscles. WALK until your walking feels normal. Then get back on the bike IN THE PROPER POSTION THAT YOU CHECKED BEFORE RIDING OFF, and repeat. You'll find you ride longer and longer, and comfort GROWS AND GROWS. Eventually, IT WILL SEEM NORMAL.

<br>

<br>One note is that if you notice "being tense", either some "bulk of muscles are being tight", or that you have "a pain" or "a tight cord" or some other sharp discomfort, do stop. You are COMPENSATING for something that has ALREADY become tired. You should have stopped sooner, and you need to develop THAT muscle that you tired out. Right then, it will be had to find that muscle, so NEXT time you start riding, do a better job before riding off of FINDING what muscles you really need to use to hold that positions (like you hold ANY position). Then ride in perhaps a less intense environment so you can PAY ATTENTION to shifts in your muscles use, and PARTICULARLY, Elbow Flopping, Butt Lifting, and Neck Twisting. I promise, if you are doing this CORRECTLY, pains should disappear, and NOT be present. But note, that even MASTER YODA gets tired, his MUSCLES get tired during a 14 hour riding day... and sometimes a SIX hour riding day.

<br>

<br>USE YOUR THIGH MUSCLES. They are the most powerful in your body. And, they tire less and less quickly. Place your body weight so THEY can be doing the work. Even with bad knees and a bad back, I can ride this lovely performing machine from sunset to long past sunrise. And, many guys can ride longer than I do. Dammit.

<br>

<br>

<br>Blessings to you all.

<br>

<br>rdf

<br>

<br>

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Dennis Andress

Thanks. I've been concentrating on changing my riding style to follow this for a couple weeks now. What a big difference and boy do I have a lot to unlearn. dopeslap.gifdopeslap.gif

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rdfrantz

Dennis, I'm glad you found something that's being helpful.

 

I cannot emphasize enough how valuable doing the floor exercises, and the sitting on the bike exercises are. They very much shorten the learning process.

 

The Emphasis in the Exercises is to STRESS the proper muscles so that you FEEL them -- It's not so much about Strength as it is about Communication, building Familiarity. When Riding, there is NO stress, NO strain; Very little "activity", use of the muscles, is required to hold the body in The Position. But reaching that point requires learning, more and more, reaching upward toward KNOWING it's "those" muscles that get used. Then, actually USING them brings about The Transition, which is really a Mental "swap over", a building of "Oh yeah, this is how it's done."

 

The shorter rides are a huge help too, taken where you explicitly MAKE the chance to stop, breathe and stretch and then continue the ride when you reach a point at which you can no longer hold The Position. A good Goal is to make ONE ride where The Position is held for it's entirety. Getting that done, and then done more and more times -- Entire Rides That Are a Success -- will RAPIDLY build what's needed to win at making The Transition. When determination is THAT high, the Rider will be closely monitoring Position, and then ACTIVELY working the muscles that hold it. To GET those First Successful Rides done, it is entirely acceptable to make the ride up from short stretches of Success. SUCCESS is what it's all about, eh?

 

Best wishes.

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edge51

Here it be.

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swmckinley

Dick,

I have also found that I can TRAIN those muscles while sitting at my office desk during the day. I push my office chair away from the desk and sit on the edge of the chair. I then balance myself on the balls of my feet and lean forward slightly bend my elbows and place my hands on the edge of the desk, never allowing them to bear weight. This helps my muscle memory and while it is not a replacement for sitting on the bike it is at least helpful for me.

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ShovelStrokeEd

The real beauty of the Master Yoda position is that it can be practiced quite effectivly at a bar stool. In fact, those who yelp about it would benefit from that very thing.

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hANNAbONE
The real beauty of the Master Yoda position is that it can be practiced quite effectively at a bar stool.

 

thumbsup.gifthumbsup.gifssED...i pRACTICE every chance I get.. dopeslap.gifclap.gifdopeslap.gif

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rdfrantz

hANNAbONE, Benjamin Franklin said, "Beer is proof God loves us and wants us to be happy."

 

Dick Fantz said, "MYRP is how you get to the good hotels to learn about God's Love." blush.gif

 

Announcement:

 

"Services" will be held next... grin.gif

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hANNAbONE
grin.gifgrin.gifgrin.gifgrin.gifgrin.gif

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rwehavnfunyet

Thanks for the great instruction. I'm getting back on a bike after 40 years and this will help reduce the unlearning.

 

If I may branch from your topic, you focus on the K bike's ergonomics and have ridden or are riding an FJR1300. I'm starting to look for an appropriate sport touring bike and wonder how you would compare the FJR, the K, and the RT in the light of the ergonomics you are describing...

 

I'm re-training on a Kawi ex500D9 and can sense some of what you are describing. My only problems have been from wind buffet at freeway speeds giving me neck aches. I have some martial arts induced calcium in the neck so I'm a little sensitive.

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rdfrantz
If I may branch from your topic, you focus on the K bike's ergonomics and have ridden or are riding an FJR1300. I'm starting to look for an appropriate sport touring bike and wonder how you would compare the FJR, the K, and the RT in the light of the ergonomics you are describing...
Sorry, FunYet, but I don't know your first name.

 

I was shocked to see my post show up, but happy too as I've wanted to update it. Wonder what that flashing icon next to it on the list of posts means?

 

Anyway, the history is that I had written a post, and also a magazine article about MYRP. Then, some folks expressed some distress at becoming comfortable, or having pains on the K1200RS. So I dusted off SOME of the items/facts/concepts and wrote it up in a way that would mostly apply to a KRS rider. Unfortunately, the K1200RS focus of the post causes riders of other models to "tune it out". That makes me sad because ORIGIANLLY, MYRP was put together to handle bikes with ergonomics like an R1100RT.

 

REALLY, MYRP is about riding ANY bike.

 

Bend torso at hip joint, no waist

Butt behind feet

Support with foot pressure from the BACK of thighs

Back with slight arch

Shoulders back

Elbows bent

(Forearms as closely level to ground as possible)

No weight on bars.

 

All that changes from bike to bike about THAT is torso angle.

 

Now, it's true bikes will have our feet in a range from fore to aft of optimal to lift our butts up at will. Seats will restrict how far for or aft we can move our butts to get the body CG over the feet. The distance from shoulders to bars will determine the elbow bend. But none of that change the PRINCIPLES of MYRP.

 

Cruisers don't seem to allow MYRP, right? WRONG!!! It's true one is unlikely to do it ALL. But benefits will be realized from WHAT YOU CAN DO.

 

Sport Bikes? They got foot peg locations that don't help. Bars can be hugely low and forward. BUT, we can keep our back arched, and bent at the hip joints. We CAN keep our elbows bent, and forearms level. Perhaps we'll LEAN ON THE TANK ALL THE TIME!!!

 

Do what you have to do to CONSCIOUSLY get as many of the PRINCIPLES into action. REGARDLESS OF BIKE MODEL. Uh... Please. blush.gif Sorry, about getting so emphatic there.

 

 

FJR? The Torso Angle it calls for is half way between my K1200RS/GT and my RxxxxRT. In fact, there's a RANGE of Torso Angles available that spans from almost one to almost the other. That's a factor that makes the bike so pleasing to me. More upright and I'm happy across the same or longer distances than when on my RT. Facing curvy sections, I'm "Down, Forward, and In(side)" almost like on the RS - but without the neck strain to hold up my head, and my elbows are more greatly (comfortably) bent.

 

The only shortcoming to riding position on the FJR, to me, is the foot pegs would be more comfortable 3 inches forward, and that wouldn't impede anything about sporty use. As it is, it's more difficult than it should be to lift one's butt up (and thus provide support for torso erection). Also all else about the body in "normal" position, the toes are pointed way down. It can be very fatiguing to KEEP the feet above the brake and shift controls as one needs to do for long duration in traffic, an also SHOULD be doing in the twisties.

 

I do use bar-backs on my FJR. That allows a greater elbow bend that I like. Stock it was OK, but after their installation "something" relaxed and I felt much more tension free. It affected "all" my body. It was an experiment that bore great fruit - for me personally.

 

Best wishes to you all.

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Whip

The only shortcoming to riding position on the FJR, to me, is the foot pegs would be more comfortable 3 inches forward, and that wouldn't impede anything about sporty use. As it is, it's more difficult than it should be to lift one's butt up (and thus provide support for torso erection). Also all else about the body in "normal" position, the toes are pointed way down. It can be very fatiguing to KEEP the feet above the brake and shift controls as one needs to do for long duration in traffic, an also SHOULD be doing in the twisties.

 

You think it was easier to get rid of the shifter than move the pegs...and then link the brakes so you don't use the rear brake as much....LOL....See 2006 FJR autoshift and linked

 

Whip

Edited by Tool

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lexxol

Ed,

You've done it again. All through the land men will have a new answer to to the age old question, where have you been dear? I was with the guys, practicing the Master Yoda Position. Bless you Ed. grin.gif

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cat0020

Here are pictures of my highway riding position between 85-125 mph..

 

RS_at_speed.jpg

 

TonVFR01.jpg

 

I was able to stay comfortable holding that position for someone riding next to me and take pictures.. no signifcant weight on my arms, neck, nor back. My feet arn't even close to the rider's pegs, so that my knees are relaxed. With a rubber band on the throttle, I don't even need to keep my hands on the grips sometimes.

Just some little tricks I picked up on how to ride fast and still be comforatble from riding trips starting in Philadelphia, PA to Key West, FL in 22 hours, including gas/rest stops. I probably should have enter some Iron Butt contest, but it would be a waste of money IMO. I just ride to where I want/need to be, not to log miles on my bike for some trophy or recognition.

 

I'm a musician, I value my hearing more than most, I havn't gone to custom earplugs just yet, but with good wind protection/aerodynamics, the wind noise is also reduced significantly in your helmet.

 

As a cyclist since my teenage years, spending 8 hours on a bicycle saddle in one day isn't all that difficult to me. On a bicycle, you really need to know your body's capability and comfort level to be able to perform fast riding hour after hour. Some of that knowledge help me greatly in finding my comfort level on motorcycles.

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ShovelStrokeEd

While that position may be comfortable, it sucks in terms of bike control. Upper body is nice but with your feet off the pegs you will lose a lot of the ability to swerve the bike quickly and may, in fact, lose control if you attempt to do so. I own a VFR, R1100S and a Blackbird, all with similar ridng positions and have no problems with knees and keeping my feet on the pegs, even riding 700 - 900 mile days day after day. It's all a matter of conditioning.

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rdfrantz

Ed, like you, I ride a VFR, and also have the "more difficult" K1200RS. With the proper position, trained up through occasional re-examination of the position, occasional identification and strenth drills, and then ensuring that I ride only in the correct postion, I stay in that poised, and effective position for 10 and 12 hour days on either one. While that's vital for Sport Touring days, it's certainly important and highly doable for those "transition" days of pure Tour on the Interstate. While each is free to do as they wish, I'd rather not "train" myself to do it less optimally just because it seems "easier" to fall away from it. That just removes one more ride that would not only strenthen my body to do the best thing well, but also strengthen my determination to do so. With the result of encreased self-esteem. Don't you think, Ed?

 

Best wishes.

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ShovelStrokeEd

Agreed. I strive to maintain the good position all through my ride. I will admit to being heavier on the seat during the 'relaxed' portion of the ride and even (gasp) moving my feet so that my heels are on the pegs as a useful alternative and to give my knees a new angle to play with. The only bike that seems to give my knees much trouble is my R1100S which has the pegs too high and too far forward for comfort for me. A minute or so of stretching, on board, every hour pretty much keeps the fatigue in check. My Blackbird has near ideal, for me, seat to bar to peg relationship with the stock bars, stock seat and my adjustable rearsets set low and as far back as possible. That hump in the tank has some utility when matched with the one above my belt in that I can gain a brief respite for my core muscles any time I wish.

 

If by self esteem you mean pride in a job well done, knowing I am able to ride long distances day after day, arriving at my destination(s) nearly as fresh as when I departed. Yes, I feel good about it. Many folks a generation younger than I haven't learned to do it yet. Many never will, as it does take time and effort to unlearn years of conditioning. What amazes me is how anyone can manage even a 500 mile day on a "sit up and beg" bike, not to mention the rolling gynecological exam type bikes.

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Tool

Ahhh... it certainly IS refreshing to see Dick's post come up again. I truly hope that MOST members here have the substance either committed to memory, or copied to a word doc, or at least bookmark this thread!

 

Especially after Dick got the chance to "update" the focus in light of the original direction being to address using MYRP on a K-bike.

 

 

 

Dick to answer your question:

"Wonder what that flashing icon next to it on the list of posts means?"

 

 

 

I believe the software annoints "hot topic" threads with icons to bring attention to the fact it has an inordinate number of responses, but also - as in this case - "viewings"... which at present is at 11100K and counting! thumbsup.gifthumbsup.gif

 

 

If you look at the lower right on the page, there is a legend to explain. The "Flaming" icon designates "Topic with over 1000 replies or 10000 views."

 

 

Dick, you should feel proud, and justifiably so; presuming that SOME of the people who have read the post have put your suggestions to work - you have helped a LOT of riders. As for me, I remember the weekend I met you, at Gleno's Tech Daze in August of 2001... you held class outside the Garage-Majal, and introduced us to MYRP, as it has come to be called. I started riding that way later that very evening, on the trip back to San Diego! cool.gif

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russell_bynum

As for me, I remember the weekend I met you, at Gleno's Tech Daze in August of 2001... you held class outside the Garage-Majal, and introduced us to MYRP, as it has come to be called. I started riding that way later that very evening, on the trip back to San Diego!

 

Same here. Before that, I was just sure my RT needed barbacks, an aftermarket saddle, and an aftermarket windscreen. My longest ride was 250 miles and I was in agony after that...sore shoulders, sore butt, etc. After a couple of weeks of doing the MYRP on my commute, I did a SaddleSore and at the end of the day, the only thing that was bugging me was my right wrist...since I didn't have a throttle lock.

 

The cool thing is the fundamentals of MYRP work on pretty much any bike. It works great on my RT, Lisa's RS, and the CBR.

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Shaun

It's been a while but I did read the description/explanation, and it seemed to make sense to me in words at the time, but I just can't visualize it (MYRP). Could anyone provide a side view (picture) of a rider with the corresponding posture, or point me to an existing photo. Thanks in advance for the thousand words.

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David

From here forward let's keep this thread on subject. It's an excellent piece of explanation by Dick, and it deserves to remain that way. smile.gif

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rdfrantz

David and all my Riding Enthusiast friends,

 

There were many more posts that have been deleted from this thread which were CONTRIBUTIONS I feel were very helpful to gaining a greater sense of this Foundation item to Riding Well - Riding Position.

 

They've been shuttled off to a thread that became a dissenting diatribe. I am so very, very, very saddened that these fine ideas, by these great and caring people are now missing to a visitor new to this topic. THEY ARE HUGELY VALUABLE.

 

I WANT THOSE CARING PEOPLE'S IDEAS BACK !!

 

An unhealty MANNER of dissent should not be allowed to darken our personal view of life in general, and this subject of Riding Position in particular, and WASTE good help. Please, don't let Darkness win.

 

The dissenter had a view-point. All our views are valid and important. I feel David/Moderators were wise in recognizing that, and keeping that stream of ideas present - in its own thread.

 

I also feel they were wise to attempt to prevent that Digression from detracting from the grand stream of ideas presented about MYRP, and limiting this thread to posts about the thread's core idea.

 

But now, ideas are missing.

 

 

Please, restore the PERTINENT posts to this thread if you can.

 

OR, inform me and I will create a new thread, posting ALL the contributions in its head thread. I don't want to do this because it will take so much time. AND, the recogntion of the contributing partys would be reduced, as well as some - unintentional - likelihood I might diminish some idea or nuance of their lovinginly tendered thoughts.

 

I am devastated by this. I only wanted to help, not have a War. I only want my friends to have their good ideas prevail as their own help, not have them demeaned and discarded.

 

This is far more than my heart can stand.

 

Can't we get this back on track? It's REAL and COMPLETE track?

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David
Please, restore the PERTINENT posts to this thread if you can.

 

We don't have any way of doing this in the software, which I regret. But I think of it as collateral damage.

 

Feel free to recreate this with the contributions from others and we'll do a better job of protecting the thread in the future. We don't normally feel the need to "protect" threads, but we considered this one a bit more timeless than others, and the thought of forcing thousands of people to read through the nonsense over the next few years outweighed the collateral damage of cutting out certain parts.

 

Thank you for your patience.

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Shaun

David, I assume that your response is simply a general tag on my message and not directed at my sincere request for a MYRP photograph. I second Mr. Franz’s opinion and could add more … but that would definitely be off topic.

 

My interest is twofold. First, I am curious about the relationship between the hips and back and second, I want an easily recognizable example to show others. I’m baffled that Laney’s picture was removed as it seemed a valuable asset to the thread (IMHO) and annoyed that it disappeared before I had a chance to copy it.

 

Therefore, my request remains …

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David
David, I assume that your response is simply a general tag on my message and not directed at my sincere request for a MYRP photograph.

 

Yes, you are correct. Sorry about that. Your sort of question is exactly what this thread ought to address.

 

Carry on! smile.gif

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ShovelStrokeEd

Go to any zoo, or any bar, for that matter, and observe the occupants of the primate house. Their resting position is just what Dick describes. We are, after all primates. It's natural!

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Dennis Andress

David, you've got to do what you've got do. Thanks.

 

Dick, It'll get better. We love ya man!

 

Shaun, these pictures were taken at the braking class Dick held last spring. He also taught the MYRP during that class so these shots are probably fair examples.

 

Laney

l1.jpg

 

Rich_O at top right. Russell at the bottom. And, I forget whose at top left.

four.jpg

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Laney

I’m baffled that Laney’s picture was removed as it seemed a valuable asset to the thread (IMHO) and annoyed that it disappeared before I had a chance to copy it.

 

Don't be annoyed... smile.gif

 

Not only can you copy it (and ignore the oddly placed left foot!), but for a small donation to the DB, I'll send you an autographed copy, complete with Photoshopping that left foot into a better position wink.gifgrin.gif

 

 

 

screensizecodesschool.jpg

 

And the upper left person on the silver RT in Dennis' group of pictures is Bob (TWEETY BIRD) from Fallbrook, CA.

 

PS to David -- Thanks for putting this thread back on track clap.gif

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ShovelStrokeEd

Notice a very important aspect of this.

 

By bending at the hips and allowing the back to maintain its natural curve the head is much more erect than it would be if you bet the same amount at the waist to keep your elbows at the level of your hands.

 

It is all important to reducing fatigue in the neck and shoulder muscles.

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Shaun

Hmmm, I get the idea … here’s hoping Monkey Butt isn’t an after effect. I just get lost trying to visualize hip gyrations, back arches, pelvic thrusts and needed a picture to put it into perspective. I wonder if gorilla’s ever get sore backs?

 

Thanks for the photo’s Dennis. And I found Laney’s picture under the dubious thread;

Ride Well - How to Ride Fast While Inclined and Then Roll Safely Off a Motorcycle

clap.gif

 

Geez (gee whiz), you people are too fast! Thanks Laney, best representation of the bunch. If I take the RS off my dart board will that do?

Edited by Shaun

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Whip

Dick

 

I understand the postion of the body in the pic and it makes good since.....at 6'2" the position tends to strain the back of my neck and upper back.... I have trouble keeping my head up....as the miles go by I end up not looking far enough down the road and get fixed on a spot 50 yards in front of the bike.....so I move forward by moving my butt close to the tank and straightening out my arms to get relief to my neck and back......I don't have this problem if I don't wear a helmet so the extra wieght is the problem....neck exercises and strengthening have not helped.....lowering the seat hieght has helped more than anything else...bar risers may have made it worse..

 

I don't remember feeling the same way on the FJR....just the RT......

 

FYI... I ride about 10 hours a day when on the road.

 

Whip

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Dennis Andress

Whip,

 

Taking these three statements out of context makes me think that your problem may well be how the slipstream is hitting your helmet. Have you tried a taller windscreen or perhaps something like a Laminar Lip?

  • at 6'2" the position tends to strain the back of my neck and upper back
  • I don't have this problem if I don't wear a helmet so the extra wieght is the problem
  • lowering the seat hieght has helped more than anything else...bar risers may have made it worse..

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tallman

Didn't Mitch post a diagram showing the hips and spine with the good/poor relationship in the riding position?

May have been in a thread about seat/pressure.

Did search but didn't find it.

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Whip

I have tried different screens....the more air hitting me in the head helps me to hold the helmet up and relieve some of the strain..... a bigger screen will only make it worse I think.

 

Whip

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Dennis Andress

Being 6'4" I find tall screens uncomfortable. I keep the RS's screen all the way down unless it's cold. Are you comfortable on a naked bike?

 

The Laminar Lip I had on the K100RS did wonders at taking pressure off my shoulders and chest.

Edited by Dennis Andress

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