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Master Yoda's Riding Position


rdfrantz

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Being 6'4" I find tall screens uncomfortable. I keep the RS's screen all the way down unless it's cold. Are you comfortable on a naked bike?

 

The Laminar Lip I had on the K100RS did wonders at taking pressure off my shoulders and chest.

 

 

Yes, I've been riding my ZXR1100 a lot lately, but if weather is bad I needed the RT and it's protection..also even with Al's ears the helmet buffering and noise will make it difficult to ride all day and my wife won't get on the ZRX.......

 

FYI I put Cee Bailey's Sum Vee on the RT and I love it...just move it up or down depending on the weather...

 

 

Whip

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I have tried different screens....the more air hitting me in the head helps me to hold the helmet up and relieve some of the strain..... a bigger screen will only make it worse I think.

 

Whip

 

Whip,

It has been my experience that neck and upper back / difficulty in keeping head up problems are usually caused by backpressure on the helmet. Your position may be otherwise perfect, but fighting a "hand" pushing your head forward for hours can be extremely tiring and will cause the symptoms you describe.

I normally do long distance with my stock windscreen in the lowest position. For me, this position insures a smooth airflow around my entire helmet. If I raise the windshield more than about an inch of the rests, then I experience turbulance on the helmet, which will cause fatigue over a long ride. With the windshield raised any higher, I can feel the pressure on the back of my helmet.

Windshields and helmet design all make a difference.

I have used Aeroflow & BMW tall shields and always come back to the stock shield. It works best for me.

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We seem pretty much all agree that the information in this thread is very important and needs to be accessible to all. Without it I never would've adapted to my GT for the long distance rides from my RT not to mention the control I gained cornering while using it.

 

As Dick said there was a lot of good information lost in the purge, but I can totally see why the dev's would want to try to keep the clutter down. I would like to suggest copying the original post by Dick and whatever updates he has for it into a single clean post and making it a sticky and locking it in say the Ride Well Forum so that anyone that looks at Ride Well would easily find it in it's intended form by it's creator without the clutter. Then if others wanted to continue discussing or debating it here they could without diluting the important information from Dick.

 

There's probably several threads around here from the years that we would all agree are timeless and useful for everyone that could be placed in a stickied/locked form at the top of some of the forums which would make finding or pointing to them easier. It might even cut down on some of the repeat questions we see that seem to come back every other month. I understand we don't want to load up the forums with a ton of stickies, but maybe just a select few such as this thread, which we all agree is timeless and very important. This way we won't have to worry about the clutter or discussion that might distract from the creators original intent.

 

Most Discussion Boards usually have a few stickies for keeping the important stuff easy to find and most likely this suggestion already came up amongst the dev's, but I thought I'd suggest it just in case.

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Ed

 

I use the CB sum-vee...it's lower than the stock, but I think I use it set too high, I'll work on it.....right now I'm having a blast riding the ZRX around with that little bikini fairing.....but it may rain on the way home tonight.

 

Whip

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Hi, Whip. I hope you'll let me address some things to others first. OK?

 

Laney, thanks so much for re-posting the picture of you on the Sport Bike. I always use pictures of you to illustrate great Riding Position because you do it with such fluid grace, and exhibit the Relaxed Connection with the bike that is so helpful not just straight and level but when we begin to get active with the bike. May I post some other pictures, particularly those taken during the K1200RS "orientation" oriented toward turning/controlling that big bike?

 

Dennis, your caring brotherhood always makes me aware of Why. Thank you, brother.

 

So Whip, I find Ed's reflections highly pertinent. I'll share that I've had to back off from long rides on my KRS, despite or also proven to me by the past Summer's cross-US trip, because it and my current (older, mature?) physiology is going to bring me neck pain when my torso is angled that far forward -- but along with other very subtle reasons as well. The discs in my neck are damaged from use, things like high G pull outs from dive bombing and extreme G turns in Air Combat Maneuvering, and loads and loads of more mundane Childishness. The "it" and "me" don't work together well for long days, and days-after-days. But, it's more "me" than "it".

 

But it does point out that we all differ in our physiology. The Concepts in MYRP are Starting Points, classes of things we each Adopt to set our body positions optimally, and also Adapt the setting of our body positions to in order to reap the huge rewards the hard won concepts can provide. I alone am not responsible for MYRP. Doctors, Physiologists, Sport Medicine and Trainers, as well as several profoundly great riders contributed to produce the principles we've all fought to learn - and all you folks keep adding to that benefit and helping others gain it.

 

But the point its, that while we Adopt, we do so only to a given level (that might increase with experience). Conversely, that while we Adapt, we do so only to a given level (that might increase with TRAINING). But while the opportunity of our experience to increase the benefits we receive is potentially Infinite, our abilities to Adapt through training are not: We DO have physical limitations.

 

Me sitting north of LA and you over there in Yeeee-Haaaaa TEXAS prevents looking at and touching so I can understand what you are DOING. Your Doing, in response to your own bike's configuration is what is yielding the result(s) you are experiencing. So it's up to you, buddy, to provide the physical Diagnosis about what's going on. I'm always here, along with these wonderfully caring Board Members, to help as best I can with your understanding of what that "means", and what path (Actions) you might take to achieve what you are seeking.

 

Sore necks seem to come most often from a less than optimum angle, for THAT person, of their shoulders in THE FORE-AFT PLAIN. The "gentle arc of the back" of MYRP is after getting a "natural", quite level fore-aft tilt of the shoulders. Conversely, "rounding the back" - in ANY manner, and at ANY place, including "bending at the waist - tilts the shoulders forward. Are you CERTAIN, you've completed the erection/gentle arching of your back?

 

Next to know about that Factor is that "natural" fore-aft shoulder tilt is that it is a ACCOMPLISHABLE RANGE. You have the ability to TRAIN yourself to set the shoulders in a less forward tilted arrangement. An exercise would consist of sitting in a low, hard backed chair and moving where YOU think the base of your neck is BACK. Do it with first light, and then increasing force. Hold the position for a 5 count and then relax that part of your body. After 5 to 7 cycles, stand up and move your outstretched arms in large, SLOW circles, of increasing intnesity, first BACK. Continue until you JUST begin to feel a strain or tiredness (5 - 10 circles, usually0. Then, RELAX all that circle muscle stuff and then 1/4 that many times, circle forward. Repeat the entire series of sit and circle about three times. Repeat for as long as you feel positive change... and then do it for one week more. grin.gif

 

This also points out, through the advocation of those arm swings, that our "rounded versus braced-backward shoulder angle" has something to do with all this stuff that has us focusing on our neck. I ended up with TERRIBLE neck troubles from riding the RT that went away with the arrival of my FJR. Two things were at work there. The first was that I was continuously having to push on the left grip to counter that bike's severe PTTR. It led to cramping of the trapezius muscle. With further strain, in order to hold the bike's and my position as that tired, it invoked the muscle between shoulder blade and spine. That would cramp and now the neck erection muscles were tightened both to help in "keeping it all together", but also TO HOLD BACK THE OTHER PAIN!!! My pain in fact had not one thing to do with "holding my head up".

 

The second factor stems from both the specific Adaptation of MYRP posture to the RT's seat/bar/peg arrangement - exacerbated by the need to HANDLE its PTTR. Unlike the FJR the RT does not allow MANY of us to get our butt far enough aft to achieve enough forward torso angle in order to get hands on grips WITHOUT REACH. The magnitude of this indeed affected by how well we've trained ourselves, but also our individual physiologies.

 

That RT "ergonomic" gets my torso far more vertical than I'd like (While Laney, with her different physiology, just seemed to fall into a "quite low head position"). That in turn has me REACHING, but reaching DOWN somewhat to what we'd all consider an quite HIGH bar position. Despite that "high bar" consideration, take a look and see if it IN FACT is a low RELATIVE bar position for YOU -- because of how high off the ground your shoulders are. OK?

 

For me, not only could I "see" the RT grips WERE "down", but because of the aforementioned PTTR handling, I was PUSHING "down". Lots of Pain, buddy. Lots of Pain.

 

That "down push" comes up when riding my RS as well. And even sometimes on my glorious VFR. In EVERY case, I find my FOREARMS ARE NOT LEVEL. Given even the LEAST opportunity, I will STILL tend to PUSH DOWN on the grips of those bikes. As I Adapt to the VFR, getting my torso more forward and thus shoulders and head lower, my forearms stay more level, and I don't "push". And even with my head so low, "looking up" does NOT produce a strain on my neck.

 

Oh, I've also learned to ALLOW my head to angle "relaxedly". I can do that AND STILL SEE UP because I raise the brim of my helmet and get my glasses as high as that allows. A PROPERLY FITTING HELMET will stay in that position even in the face of a blast over 150 mph on the VFR. grin.gif

 

ALL those pieces very much are a part of MYRP. MYRP provides Concepts, and Directions To Head. We Adopt them, and Adapt to them, one by experience and knowledge. The other through experience-and-knowledge-based Training.

 

"Getting it Right", is getting it right for each one of us. The DETAILS of how we are Adopting and Adapting are how we take what is inarguably Fundamentally "right", and make it right for our own self.

 

If and when we reach physiological limitations about our own Adaptation, it points to Adopting control arrangements, perhaps on a different bike - with a different range of relationships - one(s) to which we will be able to Adapt.

 

Did I mention that PUSHING DOWN WITH THE FEET can ALSO remove neck strain? Oh Lordy!! MYRP really and truly WAS created by phyisologists to be an INTEGRATED USE of all the muscles it talks about.

 

 

So Whip, Feel the individual muscles above your waist to find out what you are Doing - but there are perceptual limitations to that. Perhaps you can have somebody TOUCH you, Whip, so they can feel what muschles you are using. Get the Details.

 

Happiness is in the Details.

 

Best wishes.

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Hey Dick

 

Thanks for your long distance observations. From what I can understand of the riding positions it uses many of the same terms as a two plain golf swing. I picture my posture like Tiger with a driver. I know you know what I'm talking about because of your Bio. Bending at the hips is golf talk and something I've worked on for years. I do feel cramped on the RT and the raised bars made it worse. I also worked on raising the helmet, it seemed like a good idea when I was ridng around Wyoming one day, but I don't remember the results. I think I may work on bending my arms more and changing my back angle while keeping Tiger in mind. I don't want to go all the way to VJ(one plain swing). More pushing down with my feet is also something I will monitor more closely.

 

That touching stuff sounds good...I'll let Mrs. Whip go first. It's her B-day tomorrow. 39 for the first time grin.gif

 

Thanks Again

Whip

 

BTW....When are we gonna play golf?????

Edited by Whip
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May I post some other pictures, particularly those taken during the K1200RS "orientation" oriented toward turning/controlling that big bike?

 

Sure Dick -- I thought some of them might be good too. I thought I had copies of all of them, but couldn't find them anywhere on my drives.

 

Shaun, you don't have to take the RS off the dartboard, just don't aim so well. It's been 1200 miles and more than a month since the last problem, unless you count the broken license plate bracket, so I'm starting to get encouraged. smile.gif

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  • 3 months later...
The real beauty of the Master Yoda position is that it can be practiced quite effectivly at a bar stool. In fact, those who yelp about it would benefit from that very thing.

 

 

I reread this little piece this evening to see if I can improve on anything, and there is, of course. Whats interesting to me about this riding position is as I sat here reading it and kind of as I'm typing this, I'm sitting in the forward position, the 'sit up and beg' position always bothered me in chairs, so I never really sat like that. Pretty amusing to me. smile.gif

 

I've come along way since the first time I took Tri-States R12ST out around the belt way for an hour, I was one hurtin puppy, wrists, back, neck, fore arms, yea it was bad, BUT that was my first esperience on that bike so I was pretty tense. After a while I was starting to do some of the things I read here without even realizing what I was doing.

 

After I got my own ST in Oct I didn't get aquainted with this bike til a few months ago. So What I DO need to work on is better weight distribution. I was on on a few 3 hour journeys, one today in fact, and I'm fine, just tired from the wind. As I remember, my first 3hr trip in November, i was lying on the tank cuz I was tired, today I came home, wind beat, and made dinner, and went out and did other things in the evening. smile.gif

 

No pain, no aches, just wind beat, and well actually I'm suffering some calf cramps, but come to think of that over the last 10 minutes I also realize that since I'm sitting in this position, there kind of... gone. I'm pretty sure its no head trick either. I was in the popasan chair, hurting, watching tv, then I lyed down, hurting, and now im here. and they're not so... hurting. Still there but not, hurting. hm smile.gif

 

 

Thanks for the body saving post! clap.gifclap.gif I'm glad to know theres something very useful in something I've done for alot of my own life, and wasn't even aware of it thumbsup.gifgrin.gif

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Shawn, I'm feeling intensely grateful that I was able to produce something to contribute to your enjoyment of riding.

 

I hope to soon rewrite the piece with more simplicity, more also more clarity about it's helpfulness, and better illustrations and better ways to train up to do it well, and thus get its benefits.

 

Ride on, brother.

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  • 4 months later...
Shawn, I'm feeling intensely grateful that I was able to produce something to contribute to your enjoyment of riding.

 

I hope to soon rewrite the piece with more simplicity, more also more clarity about it's helpfulness, and better illustrations and better ways to train up to do it well, and thus get its benefits.

 

Ride on, brother.

 

I know I've arrived late to the dance, but boy, I'm glad I found this thread.

 

I just did a demo ride on a GT, coming from an LT, and I found I was leaning forward, and that I was putting a great deal of pressure on the handle bars. I thought, "Well, if I can move the bars back and up, then I can almost sit as upright as I do on my LT." I now see I was thinking all wrong.

 

I'm about to prove, once again, that I'm not the brightest bulb in the box...But, what you are saying is that a proper amount of forward lean is not only normal, but good for you as well.

 

I have been thinking of ways to make the GT more LT like in terms of riding posture, but now I realize it's my position on the GT that has to change, and not the GT to accomadate my riding position.

 

Thank you so much for posting your MYRP information.

 

Is there a site where pictures would be available? That would be a great help.

 

Thanks again, you've have provided a great deal of encouragement to me.

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russell_bynum

I'm about to prove, once again, that I'm not the brightest bulb in the box...But, what you are saying is that a proper amount of forward lean is not only normal, but good for you as well.

 

Exactly.

 

Human beings aren't built to sit on our butts. We're built to squat. 2-year-olds already know more about the Master Yoda Riding Position than any adult. Just watch them squat down to pick up something on the floor. thumbsup.gif We have to learn how to do it wrong.

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Exactly.

 

Human beings aren't built to sit on our butts. We're built to squat. 2-year-olds already know more about the Master Yoda Riding Position than any adult. Just watch them squat down to pick up something on the floor. thumbsup.gif We have to learn how to do it wrong.

 

Thanks for the confirmation.

 

Do you know where there might be some pictures on the web that would show the proper/improper position? That would be extremely helpful to me, as I tend to overdo things a bit.

 

Thanks again.

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The keynotes to "the" Riding Position are:

Bend at the HIPS, not waist

Maintain a SLIGHT arch to the back, not allowing it ever to "curve"

 

I have noticed that I get a pain in my right shoulder blade. I assume it is from being tense and wrong posture.

 

I have a question about the above line I quoted. As stupid as it may sound, I cannot figure out "Bend at the HIPS, not waist". Should you keep your back 'locked' straight and lean forward? I cant tell if I am bending at the waist or hips.

 

I have noticed that my back will tend to 'sag' as I ride and I'll staighten out. By this time the shoulder is already hurting. Another problem is I'm sure I am putting weight on my arms.

 

The good thing is I have not been riding the RT that long - only about 700 miles. Hopefully any bad habit(s) I have been utilizing will easily be unlearned.

 

BTW - I was considering BarBacks. I did a search on them and stubled across this thread.

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I have a question about the above line I quoted. As stupid as it may sound, I cannot figure out "Bend at the HIPS, not waist". Should you keep your back 'locked' straight and lean forward? I cant tell if I am bending at the waist or hips.

 

I have noticed that my back will tend to 'sag' as I ride and I'll staighten out. By this time the shoulder is already hurting. Another problem is I'm sure I am putting weight on my arms.

 

Here you go. The first one is bad. The second is good.

 

1bad.jpg

 

 

1good.jpg

 

This isn't necessarily true in other venues, but on a motorcycle, the easiest way to check yourself is to verify that there is a slight concave curvature in your chest, like you're pushing it outwards. That ensures that your hips are rotating forward to make the lower half of your upper torso point forward so that the upper half of your upper torso can angle more upright (vs. forward). Notice especially the difference in curvature that Nathan's demonstrating. It's a little hard to see with his bulky suit.

 

Bad position, looking from the side, has the lower half of your upper torso angling straight up, and your upper half angling forward. Good position has the lower aiming forward and the upper aiming upward.

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Thanks for posting those pics with the description.

 

Turns out I try to start off like in the 2nd picture, but after a while, I revert to the 1st picture. This is when the pain starts and I am reminded to correct the posture.

 

That must be why Yoda suggests practice! I'll go try it on the centerstand since we have 50 mph winds here today.

 

Thanks again -

Perry

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Here you go. The first one is bad. The second is good.

 

Excellent pictures. Thanks so much. Without those pictures I think I would have fallen into the "bad" position, and think it was right.

 

I did some crude photoshoping and added some lines which bring out the differences in posture, and would be interested in some comments as relates to the lines and where they fall in relation to the feet.

 

The Good -

goodline.jpg

 

The Bad -

badline.jpg

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The curvature of the back--which you highlighted--is the telling thing, and it can be achieved on any bike, now matter how much you are leaning forward.

 

The position of the footpegs will vary from bike to bike, and in those cases you'll need to compensate.

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The curvature of the back--which you highlighted--is the telling thing, and it can be achieved on any bike, now matter how much you are leaning forward.

 

The position of the footpegs will vary from bike to bike, and in those cases you'll need to compensate.

 

Thank you.

 

So the old, "chest out soldier" is one of the keys of proper riding position wink.gif

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russell_bynum
Yes. Imagine that you have breast implants and want to show them off. Just keep thinking that and your back will never hurt. smile.gif

 

I'm pretty sure this is a good place for this emoticon: eek.gif

 

 

 

thumbsup.gif

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Yes. Imagine that you have breast implants and want to show them off. Just keep thinking that and your back will never hurt. smile.gif

 

That word picture will stay with me a lifetime. Thank you...I think thumbsup.gif

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First, let me say thank you to all who responded.

 

Secondly, I'm staying with the LT. It was the ergonomics, who for me just didn't work.

 

From reading all about correct riding posture, I realized my first test ride was bending at the waist, elbows locked, etc. In other words, the only thing I did right was not drop the bike.

 

My second test ride, today, was picture perfect in terms of posture. Bending at the hips, elbows bent, chest out, arch in back, barley touching the hand grips, etc. But, it just wasn't comfortable.

 

I'm sure in time, I may, (and that's the key word) gotten used to the lean forward position, but $20,000 plus, is too pricey experiment, only to find the GT is not the right bike for me.

 

There's no denying the GT is one fantastic bike, but just not for me.

 

Thanks to everyone who responded.

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First, let me say thank you to all who responded.

 

Secondly, I'm staying with the LT. It was the ergonomics, who for me just didn't work.

 

From reading all about correct riding posture, I realized my first test ride was bending at the waist, elbows locked, etc. In other words, the only thing I did right was not drop the bike.

 

My second test ride, today, was picture perfect in terms of posture. Bending at the hips, elbows bent, chest out, arch in back, barley touching the hand grips, etc. But, it just wasn't comfortable.

 

I'm sure in time, I may, (and that's the key word) gotten used to the lean forward position, but $20,000 plus, is too pricey experiment, only to find the GT is not the right bike for me.

 

There's no denying the GT is one fantastic bike, but just not for me.

 

Thanks to everyone who responded.

Good Going!! You've started!

 

It can take some time to undo any Habitual Behavior. "Strange Sitting on a Motorcycle" is just an "educated into our doing bucket" item. We "learned", actually taught ourselves, to sit on a bike the way we do.

 

Now we can teach ourselves to do that thing differently.

 

It takes persistence. In my articles about MYRP I suggest that we learn the position on a static, non-moving bike. Tense, stretch and feel the proper postion. Do it "wrong" too, and feel that. Getting the feel of both is important.

 

Then, when we go riding, start of doing it the new, more life-serving way. Be certain then to only ride that new, life-serving way. When we feel we've slipped out of it, just Notice that and no more - don't get into beating ourselves up over the "drop off". Just notice it and get back to doing things the way we're wanting to; Get back in the desired position and Ride On.

 

Stop riding when we find we're needing to make that correction more and more frequently: We're getting tired. We've reached the current limit of the endurance of the new muscle set we're using for the new, more life-serving Riding Position. Get off and give it a rest.

 

At least, get stopped, off the bike and walk around it in a circle. Stretch, bend, flex and relax all the body muscles. Get down in a half squat and push with the heals, not the balls of the feet, to stand up. Feel that set of muscles: They are the ones we need to be applying pressure with in order to provide support for the torso.

 

That's the key. That's where riders get off track with MYRP. Get back on track and be pushing downward, gently but persistently, constantly, at the heels on the footpegs. Keep that gently arch backward in the torso bent at the hips. Flop the elbows from time to time to prove we don't have pressure on the bars and are not using the hands and arms to keep the torso erect.

 

As we do this correctly, achieve the "bone" positions and angles, more and more we we finally come to the place where we are using the correct muscles to achieve those postions and angles. When we start off, we are not. Really, we need to "cut and try" until we find the actually, specific, "just those" muscles that do that without tiring. Honest, they are there - We've proven that with now about at thousand Riders. Those muscles do not tire very quickly. Eight, ten and twelve hour days really are available when we get those exact muscles identified, and train ourselves up to use just those.

 

Only ride as long as we can do this correctly. Stop and re-group when we tire. Take the time to re-educate.

 

It pays off in the long run.

 

 

Best wishes.

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I have noticed that I get a pain in my right shoulder blade. I assume it is from being tense and wrong posture.

 

...

 

BTW - I was considering BarBacks. I did a search on them and stubled across this thread.

This is not an item greatly covered in MYRP, but is something that I personally suffered that actually led to doing the research, and the years of development of MYRP. It's most likely something a little different, something additional to what's handled specifically by MYRP.

 

MYRP calls for "arching the back", a backward bowing of the torso as if attempting to get the backs of the shoulders to touch our butts. We don't to this strenuously, but rather it's a gentle, a slight, "backward bend". This is called for because it evokes the use of certain other muscle groups, ones that are used to erect or "hold up" the torso - keep our chin off the tank.

 

That "straightening" of the torso is what takes us away from the damaging actions of "normal sitting upright on a motorcycle". It removes downward pressure by the vertebra onto each other, squishing the "discs" that interpose between them. Any gentle arching action creates a less damaging alignment of those vertebra one to the other. Less pain results. A sense of less tiredness results.

 

In the same way that "bending forward" with the torso, a motion toward getting the shoulders to touch the belly button, brings a less desireable alignment of the vertebra: So does "Rounding The Shoulders Forward". That's a motion/position where we'd be trying to get our shoulders to meet in front of us beneath our chin.

 

This is a damaging movement/position for it too compresses the discs in an ultimately painful manner. It in fact promotes a "bend forward" of the spine in a specific area of the back - between the shoulder blades. This will produce "muscle" pain - actually a Pain Response that emanates from the nerves at that pinched spinal area. Muscle tension is a respose, actually a Reaction, to that "squish pain" thing we're doing to ourselves.

 

KEEP THE SHOULDERS BACK !!!

 

In the same manner we achieve "A gentle arch of the back", be certain we are also achieving: "A gentle 'pull back' of the shoulders".

 

The pain in muscles around the T3 to T5 area will disappear.

 

 

That is the reason I never tell folks not to use bar backs: It just may be that a given individual cannot get the arm/shoulder/back/hip thing adjusted so they don't Round The Shoulders to reach bars that far away from their belly button.

 

I personally want to have my upper arm vertical when I ride, and my lower arm parallel to the ground: My elbows will then be directly behind the grips, and the 90 degree bend at the elbow "just feels in a way that always tells me 'All this Stuff is OK.'" That's the Optimum... for me.

 

I'll adjust things about the bike trying to reach that or get as close to that as possible. Bar backs may be part of that.

 

Part of the reason I seek this 90 degree bend is that when my upper arms are pointed forward, I like all other humans, will tend to round my shoulders forward across time seeking support for Holding my hands up so they don't put pressure on top of the grips.

 

Do what works for you.

 

Keep them shoulders back.

 

 

Best wishes.

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It really takes a lot of work to ride like that. Every couple miles I tend to slowly lean forward and have to correct the posture.

 

I will work on that before buying the barbacks.

 

Thanks,

Perry

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I also tend to find myself gradually slumping again into a forward position mostly I think because I catch so much more wind when I keep my shoulders up and back..But I will say it does seem like a better riding position.

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I also tend to find myself gradually slumping again into a forward position mostly I think because I catch so much more wind when I keep my shoulders up and back..But I will say it does seem like a better riding position.
Billy, I'm wondering if your position is perhaps still "too upright"?

 

When I see you ride an RT which has massive air deflection, and hear about "...I catch so much more wind when I keep my shoulders up and back.", it brings me to envision a near vertical, or quite vertical torso. If one is led to do what ultimates in "lowering the position of the head" in response to "catching air", that head was perhaps too high to begin with... and lowering it was a kind of sound move.

 

Lowering it by bending, throwing a curve forward of the spine, is of course going to cause fatigue and a degree of pain in the near term and produce unnecessary damage across time. The best way I can think of to stop that, is get the head lower in the first place !!!

 

I'd try sliding the butt aft a few inches on the seat. Then, lean forward more, bending at the hip joint, until you get the head down where "you are seeming to want it."

 

Sliding the butt aft provides two primary aids. First, it allows getting the upper body weight more directly over the foot pegs - it's Balanced (see the photos on this page of the thread posted by David). Balanced like that, less energy is required to hold that position.

 

The second benefit of sliding the butt aft is that the downward pressure on the foot pegs we should constantly maintain, now gets "easier" in that the pressure vector (from where the knee is now further aft) is more nearly vertical. It makes it easier to "lift" the butt off the seat (the kind of motion/pressure we're using to help hold the torso up). It's like exchanging a pair of rear-sets for more forward pegs - always a comfort inducing change.

 

I hope that proves of some help.

 

 

Best wishes.

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"I'd try sliding the butt aft a few inches on the seat. Then, lean forward more, bending at the hip joint, until you get the head down where "you are seeming to want it."

 

You are spot on! I've learned to do that but after a while I begin to tire somewhat in my back..Still all in all I can stay comfortable longer adding your suggested riding style to an assortment of other positions..Remember I'm just an old Harley rider that still misses the forward controls of my Wide Glide sometimes.. grin.gif And while I don't use the backrest when practicing the Yoda position I do still use it other times... thumbsup.gif

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It really takes a lot of work to ride like that. Every couple miles I tend to slowly lean forward and have to correct the posture.
Perry, I know what you mean, getting the sense about "it being a lot of work". But I want to bring forward a degree of truth: There's a different Reality.

 

Holding any Riding Position is Work - it takes energy to sit on and ride a bike. We are always using muscles to hold our Riding Position --- no matter which position that is.

 

With MYRP we're not adding work, we're calling for using different muscles to do the work. Not "More"; Just "Different".

 

In fact, the whole idea in MYRP is to change the muscles used over to those which are already stronger at that task, and which tire less easily.

 

"The work", what seems like "work", is just Change. It is a mental change that takes place first - Thought always precedes and drives Action. We lose our Determination, our Decision, to "act differently". It comes about because we are receiving new sensations, new calls, feedback from our muscle use. That seems like a discomfort mostly because it is new.

 

We've always been receiving feedback from the constant muscle use to hold our "old" Riding Position. We've just become accustomed to that; It's come to seem normal - that constant input of feeling.

 

Now we've got a different Feeling, a different set of sensations of Feedback. All it is is... new.

 

We'll "get over that", cease to have what seems like an unnecessary discomfort. Just notice it. Understand what it is: A different set of feedback sensations. That's GOOD!!!! It means we're being successful!!! We're doing it correctly. We're winning!!

 

Then, get on with flexing and relaxing so we "fall" back into our new way of aligning our body parts when Riding.

 

That next minute of doing it correctly is our Success.

 

 

Best wishes.

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Good Going!! You've started!...

 

 

Thanks, Dick.

 

I've started adapting your riding technique on the LT, and have found it becoming more comfortable. I use the MYRP for a bit, then go back to the "old" way, try MYRP for a bit more, etc. I am getting more used to it.

 

Perhaps, this spring I may give the GT another try.

 

Thanks for your encouragement, and your time in helping all of us ride in a more healthy manner.

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  • 6 months later...

I have been advising 2 friends: one a 65 year old on an R1200C who has a pinched nerve in his neck & a 58 year old who is having trouble visualizing a shift from his Harley cruiser position to a K1200 or R1200 riding position. I have explained the ergonomics, but am afraid pictures would be better than my feeble verbal explanations. Is there a website for the Dick Frantz discussion or Alexander method. Pls forward to drbiker@cox.net. Thanks.

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russell_bynum
I have been advising 2 friends: one a 65 year old on an R1200C who has a pinched nerve in his neck & a 58 year old who is having trouble visualizing a shift from his Harley cruiser position to a K1200 or R1200 riding position. I have explained the ergonomics, but am afraid pictures would be better than my feeble verbal explanations. Is there a website for the Dick Frantz discussion or Alexander method. Pls forward to drbiker@cox.net. Thanks.

 

Look up a few posts in this thread. David posted pictures of his son Nate on his R1200GS demonstrating the right and wrong position. The exact position will change depending on the bike, but the fundamental ideas are the same. I use the same basic position fundamentals if I'm on my CBR600RR with racing rearset footpegs and racing clip-on handlebars as I do on my Aprilia Tuono, Lisa's R1100RS, and even my dirt bike.

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I want to thank Dick for all the energy he has put into leading us to relearn the important things...

 

I have come to this forum from many years on cruisers and on Harley Touring bikes, which as you might imagine were apparently not designed with MYRP in mind. I did learn years ago that to help improve my comfort on the long ride, I could rotate my hips forward, as if I had a huge beer belly and at the same time to hold my shoulders back.

 

(In-fact I have often thought that some of the people in the Harley crowd DO have huge beer bellies, and that the weight of the belly tilts the hips forward and perhaps an unintended consequence is that they are somewhat more comfortable as a result )

 

In fact, that was a major part of me getting my sweet R1100R and I am now in the market for the K1200GT.

 

NOw, having said all that I want to ask Dick and others- what the relationship is between MYRP, the Alexander Technique, and Moshe Feldenkrais' work, especially "Awareness Through Movement" , and Muscle Memory Work- especially at the Cellular level?

 

And, I believe Awareness is an important prerequisite to re-learing and change.

 

OBTW. I am loving my mare active participation in this Forum, and now that I am a certified BMW guy- look forward meeting many of you at a future Torrey... since I live in Utah.

 

Thanks again.

Bob

 

MNHBWY... (May New Habits Be With You)

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Bob:

 

MYRP was developed independently without recourse to either Alexander Technique, or Moshe Feldenkrais' work. I do find similarities in several of my teaching methods, more toward other motorcycling matters than MYRP, but my methodology is unique. "Imaging", and developing "muscle use patterns" are present, but the work overall bears more resemblence to Homer Kelley's "The Golfing Machine" than anything else. But again, that applies more to things I teach wholly aside from MYRP.

 

Perhaps one aspect of MYRP does bear great similarity to Mr. Alexander's self-describing quote: "Anyone can do what I did, IF they will do what I did." I had a problem; I identified it; I devolved it; I rebuilt my position solving the problem; I sought help in understanding how to provide support for it from other musculature. At the time work was underway by DP Produces to insturment golfers to understand the physiology of the golf swing, and then with gymnasts to understand the implmentation of their Skills. Sports Medicine was not a widely recognized discipline yet, so I sought information and direction from sports trainers who were trained physical therapists, and from kinesthesiologists. The latter was mainly to confirm what I had learned/discovered, and to ensure nothing damaging was likely to pursue. They also provided additional insight on "what had gone wrong for most folks" (sitting upright), and "why this new way of sitting a motorcycle works".

 

Generally, MYRP is JUST DO IT!! Keep the head stuff out of it. KISS.

 

I do not consider that dynamic motion is of great importance to learning the MYRP technique. Sufficient of its benefit will accrue from the simple training demonstrations presented, and the light exercise I suggest. That exercise is not designed as a "strenth builder", but rather to identify the muscle groups to use. It also provides focus on the body positions required.

 

"Flex and Relax" exhortations in the self-demonstrations is indeed about building muscle memory. If one has Visualization skills they wish to augment this with, they should feel free to do so. I rely heavily on visualization in my other teachings. I don't consider such to be highly useful with MYRP - an entirely personal choice and consideration - because there are low dynamics - little movement.

 

I do consider that Feel is of paramount importance - especially in this less dynamic realm. However, I adamantly reject and discourage at high cost the use of developing "cellular level memory" about any work I'm involved in!!! I strive for conscious level understanding and control in virtually all spheres of life.

 

I consider Behavior patterns to be important. However they are usually considered by others, and acted with and upon with/as less than fully concious methodologies.

 

For Skills much more dynamic than a Riding Position, I instead teach the building of - The Copyrighted - conscious Action Package. It consists of Visualization, sensory recording, dynamic recording, and several other elements, that ultimate as a Process.

 

MYRP is far more simple. Get on a bike and produce the key results, straight or slightly arched back, that torso leaned somewhat forward, no hand pressure atop the grips, as great a balance of the torso/head/arm mass over the feet as possible. Support with downward pressure of the feet - at the heels, not toes. Adjust to fit (slide the butt usually aft). Do it for longer and longer periods, but only ever ride doing it correctly. KISS.

 

Flex and relax the pieces that are working so you can identify what makes it happen.

 

 

I don't really have much more to say in the broad pubic realm about technicalities - and in fact imagine what I've said in this post will have bored most readers already. If you wish, you can PM me for further techical interchange. I'm always glad to discuss things with friends.

 

 

Best wishes,

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Lower back discomfort was quickly apparent to me after picking up an '02 RT last October. My usual ride to that point had been the '86 K100RS.

 

After reviewing the MYRP I realized that the bar-backs, installed by the previous owner, were forcing me to the near vertical position. I removed them and now ride all day in comfort. Interesting how an inch of movement can make miles of difference.

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  • 11 months later...
TryingToLearn

Hi, This is Omer, all the way from Turkey :)

 

In another forum, in reply to my question about riding position, some nice person pointed me to this very topic. And I am really glad that he did. I really have benefited from all the writings already.

 

However, because this is an old topic, some of the pictures are missing which seem to help a lot of people to understand what is being said. The pictures would especially help me as I am not a native speaker. Any idea how to restore those pictures? Or somebody nice enough to post them again?

Edited by TryingToLearn
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TryingToLearn

Are you kidding me! This link is like the holy grail that Indiana Jones keeps looking for :).

 

I am reading it and trying to understand every bit. The pictures are missing though, and that's a shame.

 

I believe that driving a motorcycle is not just hopping on and turning on the gas. One must first learn how to sit on it first.

 

Anyway, I really thank you for pointing out this site and this link. Also, thank everyone for their input on this great topic.

 

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  • 3 years later...

Just joined here and like riding tips. I feel uncoordinated starting from a stop and making a right. Working on sitting up straight and lightly touching grips. Also my BMW shifts much more strongly than my Honda 600vlx and I'm trying to smooth out my shifting, up and down.

Disagree about swimming upstream- Why fight needlessly, instead become master of the Flow!

Where can I learn more about riding in these forums? Suggestions?

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Disagree about swimming upstream- Why fight needlessly, instead become master of the Flow!

Where can I learn more about riding in these forums? Suggestions?

 

Going with the flow of traffic will get you complacent, & any cages around you are likely to forget you are there, assuming they ever saw you in the first place.

 

Check out Ride Well for more riding techniques than you could ever want. Oh, & welcome to the asylum.

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Welcome.

You're talking about shifting the '98 RT, correct?

A different critter compared to the K bikes in this forum.

MYRP (Master Yoda's Riding Position) works very well on the K1200 RS/GT and is adaptable to other models.

Danny's suggestions are good and check out the Ride Smart session planning over in Events.

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  • 5 months later...
Are you kidding me! This link is like the holy grail that Indiana Jones keeps looking for :).

 

I am reading it and trying to understand every bit. The pictures are missing though, and that's a shame.

 

I believe that driving a motorcycle is not just hopping on and turning on the gas. One must first learn how to sit on it first.

 

Anyway, I really thank you for pointing out this site and this link. Also, thank everyone for their input on this great topic.

Yes. Very interesting read -especially for me.Yes, very helpful the Pictures would be . ;)

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  • 5 months later...

David - would you mind re-posting your 2006 pic's?

 

Here you go. The first one is bad. The second is good.

 

1bad.jpg

 

 

1good.jpg

 

This isn't necessarily true in other venues, but on a motorcycle, the easiest way to check yourself is to verify that there is a slight concave curvature in your chest, like you're pushing it outwards. That ensures that your hips are rotating forward to make the lower half of your upper torso point forward so that the upper half of your upper torso can angle more upright (vs. forward). Notice especially the difference in curvature that Nathan's demonstrating. It's a little hard to see with his bulky suit.

 

Bad position, looking from the side, has the lower half of your upper torso angling straight up, and your upper half angling forward. Good position has the lower aiming forward and the upper aiming upward.

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