Anatomy of a Crappy Turn, with photos

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Lineareagle said:

My BIG issue, and I have seen his almost everyday this year, is that being close to the line on a blind corner leaves absolutely NO room for the other squid coming the other way who is out at the line and maybe a little over it.

 

In your shots you have no room for that.

 

That's the thing about my photo sequence that makes me cringe the most. Levering my tires off the ground and sliding into the scrub at 20 MPH would be bad, but slamming head-on into a Corvette with a 40-MPH speed differential would be a lot worse.

 

Quote

Yep its slower but still fun and it takes care of some of the certainty that there is a dork out there on my side of the road.

 

Oh, there definitely was a dork on my side of the road, alright...

 

Staying wider (at least until you can see through the turn) doesn't have to be slower at all. Looky-here:

 

 

The red line is approximately what I did (stars are roughly where the photos were snapped); the green line is more like what I shoulda done. If I'd stayed on the green line, I could have held about the same speed through most of the turn. Note that when riding the green line, you don't get near the center line until you can see what's coming around the bend, and you can add power sooner, since you're done with the heavy leaning sooner.

 

As was noted though, it's hard to hug the fog line when you're coming into a turn too hot to begin with. As a famous wise man once said to Russell, "you're going too f**king fast." Or at least, that's what I shoulda told myself that day.

[Albert]

Excellent explanation!

 

I can only echo David's comment. Having taken David's own Ride Smart course I can tell you this is one of biggest differences in my riding today compared to before. Although nowhere near Mitch's level of accomplishment, I am constantly amazed by the control and margin of error I now posses. I find myself practically giggling on sweeping turns as I lean my body in and have no applied countersteer whatsoever. Minute body motoins are all that's required to track true through the turn (I'm not talking Tail of the Dragon type turns here).

[lawnchairboy]

thanks mitch, the picture is really helpful in illustrating what you discussed in your killboy shots. I think one of the most disturbing things about riding that darn road is that if you attempt to take the green line, with a later turn in point, someone squiddly from behind could take you out from the rear. The corners are so tight that even a second of inattention to your six could result in an unexpected surprise to your left as you attempt to late apex the left hander...

 

 

chris

[SC_SVRider]

Wow! I am glad you posted this Mitch. This morning I have been doing a lot of reading on the net to get an idea of how to improve my riding. This post has helped tremendously. I found a website that teaches the "old" way I rode, and still try to avoid falling back into.

 

"In decreasing-radius turns, bad habits are especially tricky. In decreasing-radius turns, the rider must slow down continuously while in the turn. This decelleration means that centrifugal force wants to make the bike go vertical. To compensate, the rider must countersteer to keep the bike leaned over, and perhaps to increase his lean angle. However, the bike is already leaned over the majority of its lean angle, so the handlebars and front wheel never completely point in the opposite direction. This can confuse the unwary and uneducated rider. What this sensation feels like is a "counterforce" on the handlebars, resisting the natural tendency of the bike to want to stand up under decelleration. When a rider unexpectedly comes upon a decreasing-radius curve, ignorance of countersteering can lead to a fright at the very least. A similar sensation is experienced in an off-camber turn, since the bike is also decellerating."

 

It's almost scary to see the differences. Your picture and description makes so much more sense.

 

Thanks again for posting this, it's given me a lot to think about.

 

[Francois_Dumas]

There's one thing about hugging the fog line that I am weary of...... more often than not it is strewn with little stones and sand, brushed to the side by passing traffic.

 

So one can not stay too close to the edge, or risk not being able to brake, or even steer, at all when the time comes.....

[Kitsap]

Mitch,

 

Your third frame indicates what I experienced yesterday, not as a rider but as a driver. I had to make an abrupt mid turn correction of my auto to avoid taking off the heads of two oncoming riders who had eatin up the apex way to early. This particular turn requires a way late entry but I don't know how many times I've seen even the locals blow it.

 

My input.. we've all done this at one time or another. Wise men learn from their ways others don't.

 

now where's the picture of your rear wheel lug cover

[leikam]

The blue line here is an option if you realize that you're on the red line and decide to not ride it out.

 

 

The two arrows for braking are the ends of one braking event, not two separate applications. It's neither fast nor elegant, but it gets the job done and puts you in a good place for what's next.

[russell_bynum]

The blue line here is an option if you realize that you're on the red line and decide to not ride it out.

 

 

The two arrows for braking are the ends of one braking event, not two separate applications. It's neither fast nor elegant, but it gets the job done and puts you in a good place for what's next.

 

But that requires braking while in a turn! Surely your bike will burst into flames and you'll die the instant you try that.

[leikam]

But that requires braking while in a turn! Surely your bike will burst into flames and you'll die the instant you try that.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much how it happens. On the upside though, you'll almost certainly make killboy's front page. And it's better than running off the road.

[russell_bynum]

But that requires braking while in a turn! Surely your bike will burst into flames and you'll die the instant you try that.

 

Yeah, that's pretty much how it happens. On the upside though, you'll almost certainly make killboy's front page. And it's better than running off the road.

 

Good point!

[Francis]

ATGATT---riding pants?

[big-t]

ATGATT---riding pants?

 

 

I'm pretty sure Mitch wears the kevelar jeans with armor.

 

 

[Lone_RT_rider]

ATGATT---riding pants?

 

 

I'm pretty sure Mitch wears the kevelar jeans with armor.

 

 

Yep, he wears Draggin Jeans with hip and knee armor inside. I tried that for a time, but man.... talk about Monkey butt! LOL.

 

Shawn

[Ken H.]

The blue line here is an option if you realize that you're on the red line and decide to not ride it out.

 

 

The two arrows for braking are the ends of one braking event, not two separate applications. It's neither fast nor elegant, but it gets the job done and puts you in a good place for what's next.

 

But that requires braking while in a turn! Surely your bike will burst into flames and you'll die the instant you try that.

 

But to another part of the equation - On the blue line option, during the period marked "braking" (it probably should have been labeled first location,"start or increase amount of braking and then second location, "stop or decrease amount of braking"), the very act of temporarily reducing the turn's radius, going straighter (going toward the outside) during that portion of the blue line, involves straightening the bike up, thus making more traction available for braking.

 

But then you knew that...

 

 

[russell_bynum]

The blue line here is an option if you realize that you're on the red line and decide to not ride it out.

 

 

The two arrows for braking are the ends of one braking event, not two separate applications. It's neither fast nor elegant, but it gets the job done and puts you in a good place for what's next.

 

But that requires braking while in a turn! Surely your bike will burst into flames and you'll die the instant you try that.

 

But to another part of the equation - On the blue line option, during the period marked "braking" (it probably should have been labeled first location,"start or increase amount of braking and then second location, "stop or decrease amount of braking"), the very act of temporarily reducing the turn's radius, going straighter (going toward the outside) during that portion of the blue line, involves straightening the bike up, thus making more traction available for braking.

 

But then you knew that...

 

 

But it's still "braking in a turn" and everyone knows that means instant death.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

The blue line here is an option if you realize that you're on the red line and decide to not ride it out.

 

 

The two arrows for braking are the ends of one braking event, not two separate applications. It's neither fast nor elegant, but it gets the job done and puts you in a good place for what's next.

 

But that requires braking while in a turn! Surely your bike will burst into flames and you'll die the instant you try that.

 

But to another part of the equation - On the blue line option, during the period marked "braking" (it probably should have been labeled first location,"start or increase amount of braking and then second location, "stop or decrease amount of braking"), the very act of temporarily reducing the turn's radius, going straighter (going toward the outside) during that portion of the blue line, involves straightening the bike up, thus making more traction available for braking.

 

But then you knew that...

 

 

But it's still "braking in a turn" and everyone knows that means instant death.

 

All kidding aside, Michael's blue line solution is a valuable option to keep in mind; everyone screws up their turn-in at some time or another, and it's important to know that you can correct for it instead of following through and hanging your head on the wrong side of the yellow line through the entire blind turn. The double-apex turn doesn't look as graceful to the untrained eye (the "eject ego here" remark was a nice touch!), but it's safer, smarter, more likely to get you home than the red line.

[Yeeha! Stephen]

The blue line here is an option if you realize that you're on the red line and decide to not ride it out.

 

 

The two arrows for braking are the ends of one braking event, not two separate applications. It's neither fast nor elegant, but it gets the job done and puts you in a good place for what's next.

 

But that requires braking while in a turn! Surely your bike will burst into flames and you'll die the instant you try that.

 

But to another part of the equation - On the blue line option, during the period marked "braking" (it probably should have been labeled first location,"start or increase amount of braking and then second location, "stop or decrease amount of braking"), the very act of temporarily reducing the turn's radius, going straighter (going toward the outside) during that portion of the blue line, involves straightening the bike up, thus making more traction available for braking.

 

But then you knew that...

 

 

But it's still "braking in a turn" and everyone knows that means instant death.

 

All kidding aside, Michael's blue line solution is a valuable option to keep in mind; everyone screws up their turn-in at some time or another, and it's important to know that you can correct for it instead of following through and hanging your head on the wrong side of the yellow line through the entire blind turn. The double-apex turn doesn't look as graceful to the untrained eye (the "eject ego here" remark was a nice touch!), but it's safer, smarter, more likely to get you home than the red line.

 

You have time/willingness to draw up the series of curves in the photos and the way they should have been taken together? The first photo says you're coming out of a tight right hander... How quick do you run over to the Fog Line (we called them Berm Stripes when I worked in the Street Dept) coming out of the right hander? Then, in the drawing, where the green add throttle runs you back to the Fog Line, Do you quickly hit the Center Stripe again for the next right hander? I would be tempted to keep the Green apex continuing close to the Center Stripe for the next tight right hander. Would I be doing that all wrong?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Yeeha! Stephen said:

You have time/willingness to draw up the series of curves in the photos and the way they should have been taken together?

 

Sure, but it's probably wrong. In fact, it HAS to be wrong: there's no good way to get through all of that. :-P

 

We can nitpick "the best line" endlessly. No doubt I haven't envisioned the best line, and haven't even really drawn exactly what I envisioned - but something like this might work:

 

 

 

Obviously the initial entry and final exit points/trajectories/speeds will be dependent on what lies beyond the view of the camera.

 

[DavidEBSmith]

At 7 pages of thread isn't it time to quote Gleno?

 

"You guys will analyze a haircut."

 

[russell_bynum]

At 7 pages of thread isn't it time to quote Gleno?

 

"You guys will analyze a haircut."

 

 

Yeah, except very few people die from bad haircuts.

[leikam]

Besides, it's only page 3 for me...

[Woodie]

At 7 pages of thread isn't it time to quote Gleno?

 

"You guys will analyze a haircut."

 

+4

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

At 7 pages of thread isn't it time to quote Gleno?

 

"You guys will analyze a haircut."

 

 

Yeah, except very few people die from bad haircuts.

 

There have been times when I wanted to die because of my haircut...

[Lone_RT_rider]

There have been times when I wanted to die because of my haircut...

 

You were saying?

 

 

[Jake]

 

;-)

[TN_R_Girl]

Leikam, have you ever ridden it?

 

No, I've never been to the mountains east of the Mississippi.

 

It's a great ride. It's hard to explain how relentless the corners are, though. There's nothing particularly difficult with regards to radius changes, chamber, etc but the corners are just one after another with very little time to rest.

 

Personally, I like it better than the Cherohala. Cherohala is a great road, but it's VERY fast (by that, I mean...if you're riding it as a sporty pace, your speed will be very high) and there are quite a few decreasing radius corners that will really kick your ass if you're not on top of things. Big corner speed freaks me out, so I take it easy on the Cherohala.

 

+1

I get postively freaked out on the Cherohala ... but I absolutely LOVED running the gap. It reminds me of slalom snow skiing ---If I can get the first couple turns just right, I find there's a swish/swooping rhythm to it.

 

But "relentless" is a perfect description ... boy can you get messed up if you lose that rhythm

 

(Hey Mitch ... how about we run the Gap together instead of the Cherohala next time?? )

 

 

 

[E30TECH]

 

 

I get postively freaked out on the Cherohala ... but I absolutely LOVED running the gap.

 

I rode the Cherohala at a spirited pace on the way to the dragon. I was a little disappointed by the dragon after riding the Cherohala.