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Anatomy of a Crappy Turn, with photos


Joe Frickin' Friday

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Joe Frickin' Friday

I attended a RidingSmart class in fall ‘04. I paid attention and learned all of the things that I ought to be doing on a big fat sport-touring (some say just plain touring) bike, but in the three and a half years since, it's been rare that I've hit a turn where I managed to do everything right. Some of my turns, in fact, are still downright atrocious.

 

I got caught on film a week and a half ago, and I figured it might be helpful to post the pics here along with comments on what I think I did right and wrong. Hopefully other experienced riders can chime in, and in the melee, maybe other aspiring-expert riders can glean something useful.

 

If you've been riding – and reading the web – for long enough, you've likely heard of Deal's Gap. If not, the short version is that it's an 11-mile stretch of road in southeast Tennessee with 318 turns in it. 2nd gear hairpins, blind corners, bizarre squiggles and camber changes, not much straightaway at all. Something of a mecca for sportbike riders and sportscar driving clubs. In recent years it's become insanely popular, probably as a result of the web. Weekends there can be scary and fun: the road itself is crowded with people moving pretty fast, but the gas station/resort at the southern end is packed with a really entertaining mixture of people and vehicles.

 

If you've been on this road at the right time, you've probably noticed a guy parked on a tight turn somewhere in the middle of the whole thing. That would be Killboy (probably; there are a number of imitators lately). If you saw him, then he saw you and took your picture, and about a week later you can find your pics for sale on his website.

 

He also posts highlights for each day. I passed through the Gap on Wednesday 4/30, on the way to BRR, and sure enough, he snapped a few shots of me. A week later I was happy to see the first photo in my sequence made his highlights page (click here and do a ‘Find' for the phrase “through the turn”). It shows a promising start to the turn, but after that, things pretty much go to hell.

 

The first shot (the one in the highlights), in larger size:

 

2008-04-anatomy-of-a-crappy-turn-001-L.jpg

 

 

So far, so good. It's a left turn, and I've started fairly close to the fog line. I'm looking through the turn nicely, and already starting to lean my body to the inside. With a little straightaway I'd probably have been leaned off further already, but as you can see I just came out of a hard right.

 

Next shot:

 

2008-04-anatomy-of-a-crappy-turn-002-L.jpg

 

 

Unfortunately I've already left the fog line in the dust. This is nearly a 180-degree turn, I'm barely 45 degrees through the arc, and I've already sucked right up to the double-yellow, something that ought not happen until maybe the final 60 degrees of the turn, when I would finally have a good sight line all the way through to the end.

 

Next shot:

 

2008-04-anatomy-of-a-crappy-turn-003-L.jpg

 

 

I'm still leaning toward the inside of the turn, which is good, but not as much as I should.

 

Other obvious problems in this shot:

 

  • My butt should be farther back (see the gap in front of the backrest?).
     
  • My upper body should be leaned farther forward/down. My tankbag sometimes gets in the way. This is a rather large tankbag, suitable for transcontinental tours, but I don't put much stuff in it for a weekend in the Smokies; I've been meaning to buy something with a lower profile.
     
  • The footpeg is under the arch of my right foot; I should be up on the balls of my feet. I struggle with this one all the time in very tight twisties: I want to retain the option of rear-wheel braking, but I know I should have that footpeg under the balls of my foot. What to do??? I still haven't figured this one out.
     
  • My right hip is firmly planted in the saddle. If I'd lift that half of my butt up, my upper body would probably lean to the inside of the turn more like it should.

Next shot:

 

2008-04-anatomy-of-a-crappy-turn-004-L.jpg

 

 

All of the things I highlighted in the previous two pictures come back to haunt me. Poor body position means the bike is leaned over farther than it needs to be, and hugging the center line means I'm carving a tighter radius than necessary, further forcing the bike to lean over. Look under the left side case: those sparks used to be part of my centerstand. The touchdown rattles me, and I think as a result my upper body instinctively sits up: you can see my spine trying to curl back up to come in line with the lean of the bike itself. On the plus side, I'm definitely looking through the turn like I ought to (the gray diamond is the rear center of my helmet).

 

Next shot:

 

2008-04-anatomy-of-a-crappy-turn-005-L.jpg

 

 

My wits have returned – just a bit. I'm starting to lean my upper body back over (though still not as much as I ought to, and not forward/down enough), and I'm starting to pull away from the center line.

 

Next shot:

 

2008-04-anatomy-of-a-crappy-turn-006-L.jpg

 

 

Looks like I've managed to lean forward/down just a bit more.

 

Final shot:

 

2008-04-anatomy-of-a-crappy-turn-007-L.jpg

 

 

The turn is mostly over: I'm hard on the throttle, straightening up bike and body.

 

Shawn rides behind me most of the time on these weekend get-togethers. I'd expect he'll tell you that I do pretty good in longer/faster turns (like those found on the Cherohala), and that I'm pretty sloppy in tight stuff like Deal's Gap. My biggest problem is that the Ridingsmart position isn't really an ingrained habit for me, so when I get a little flustered, naturally I don't do the right stuff. Shawn, OTOH, is a Ridingsmart disciple. He adopts an exaggerated posture even during fairly mellow turns; it looks kinda goofy when I happen to glance in my mirror, but man, when the gnarly tight twisties arrive, he never misses a beat! I need to get over my hang-ups and start practicing all the right moves even on more gentle turns; I'd feel good as a rider if doing the right things in hairy situations (like when a turn gets tighter than expected) becomes automatic.

 

Questions and comments welcome.

 

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ShovelStrokeEd

Mitch,

Don't feel alone, this happens to me all the time.

 

To correct, I do get into the extreme body position way early and then go into a little mantra. "Not yet, not yet, not yet, OK now turn the SOB." Kinda hug that fog line as long as I dare.

 

I think the worst thing you did is early apex the turn. Given that you are making a left, it is not prudent to get too far inside the bike (headlights make poor face shields) so you are kinda limited in getting yourself down and further in. The early cross into the inside radius means holding a lean longer than you want to and gets hairy when hard parts are dragging, even just a boot toe.

 

You already know the answer here. Back off a bit and work on technique rather than speed. The smooth will come back in short order. There are also some days when you are just not in the game and there is nothing to be done but switch to smell the roses mode.

 

One more note on re-reading your original post. In the last pic, based on the upcoming right, IMHO, you should still be positioned near the double yellow to better have you ready for that right to come. It will give you much more time to set up for that turn.

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celebrationrev

You call it crappy, I'm in awe. I dream of that kind of form and the brass to lean that far over. I wish I could take an advanced rider course but time and bucks get in the way.

Seeing the pics is a lesson, though, so thanks for posting. Gives me something to visualize next time I'm in the mountains.

What was your speed through that turn?

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russell_bynum

I think the worst thing you did is early apex the turn.

 

I agree.

 

The body position stuff could be a bit better, but the early turn-in is where you really went wrong.

 

The footpeg is under the arch of my right foot; I should be up on the balls of my feet. I struggle with this one all the time in very tight twisties: I want to retain the option of rear-wheel braking, but I know I should have that footpeg under the balls of my foot. What to do??? I still haven’t figured this one out.

 

One of the most pressing reasons to keep the balls of your feet on the pegs is for ground clearance. When you're turning left there's really no harm in keeping your right foot on the arch rather than the ball.

 

But...it can be an issue with right turns.

 

I don't know about you, but I run Deal's Gap in one gear (either 2nd or 3rd...I forget which), so shifting isn't a problem....just leave your left foot in the "proper" position with the ball of your foot on the peg. But...on many roads, you do shift a bunch, so the left foot has to move.

 

At the track, it happens all the time. I don't use the rear brake very often (if at all) at the track, but shifting is pretty constant so the whole "what do I do with my feet" thing is an issue.

 

The short answer: Put it back into the proper position when you're done braking/shifting.

 

There...wasn't that simple. :)

 

Realistically, taking your weighted (inside) foot off the peg or moving it around is likely to upset things, so you should try to get that done while the bike is upright. Generally, it's easy enough to bang a downshift in the split second that the bike is upright as you're going through a transition, but braking is a bit harder.

 

What I do when I want to be using rear brake and lots of lean angle (which doesn't happen very often) is I just leave my right foot over the brake pedal and tuck it in as tight as possible.

 

On the RT, that was enough that the peg would touch down before my foot did. On Lisa's RS, my foot still touches first, but really...the lean angle required to get to that point is so far past what I would ever use on purpose, that it's not an issue.

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markgoodrich

Mitch, your analysis of your technique is right on, and Ed's comments are, too...I just recently did the Ride Smart course, and constantly practice the body positioning.

 

One thing I am curious about: you say you want to be able to use rear brake. Why? Freddie Spencer correctly says, and teaches, that the front brake is used to get the bike to change direction, is the brake to use for trail braking, and the rear brake is useful in the toes of an expert to help set the suspension up going into a turn. Schwantz is quoted as saying he never once touched the rear brake during his career. I hope this doesn't sound like criticism, as it's not intended to be. I never use my rear brake except when executing a tight slow turn in a parking lot or such...except of course that the RT has linked braking, which I don't like, but live with.

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You're over-thinking it, my man. The problem isn't your body position, but these two things:

 

1) Entry was too hot, which in turn caused you to...

 

2) Turn in too early to subconsciously protect yourself.

 

That sequence of mistakes, in turn, causes this:

 

1) Steeper lean angle on the exit because you have to effect a tighter radius, and...

 

2) You aren't on the throttle as much as you could be, which results in less cornering clearance.

 

You understand the body position physics purposely, but the line selection and throttle control/entry speed are next. "Go slow to go fast."

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Freddie Spencer does not "correctly" say that. He says it, but it's not "correctly" said. :) Top racers do use brakes when cornering, but not to corner. Freddie is in the distinct minority--not about using brakes while corning, but about using them to turn.

 

And Schwantz does indeed say that, but he was a) on a sport bike with very little rear wheight and b) better front brakes on c) courses that required much hard braking (Road Atlanta, where he teaches, is a good example: 160 mph in 6th, down to 45 in 2nd, in seconds).

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One thing you can do when you realize you've turned in too early is to make the turn a double apex. Head back out towards the fog line (slowing as necessary) and turn in again to hit your exit. It won't be fast -- you've already blown that by your initial line choice -- but it may help you avoid the tight inside line and it will set you up nicely for the next turn.

 

On the shot with the sparks, I'd look for my rear tire to be a good 30 degrees to the right. So slide it out there or set up your entry to hit that line. That's the part of the turn where I'd hope to be on the gas.

 

I use the same technique Ed does: set up early so that I have to wait for the turn-in moment. If you're just getting set at the last moment -- at the moment you need to turn in -- you're mentally behind, probably riding too fast (or too unfocused) and should slow down.

 

+1 on using good body position and line choice every time, even when not "necessary".

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Oh sure, try to play it off as bad riding... you're not foolin' me. If I ever get out that way and see him on the side of the road I'm gonna be sure to let the sparks fly too. :grin:

 

Kinkos called, you're poster sized glossy print is done... it'll look great on your office wall.

 

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russell_bynum
Oh sure, try to play it off as bad riding... you're not foolin' me. If I ever get out that way and see him on the side of the road I'm gonna be sure to let the sparks fly too. :grin:

 

Kinkos called, you're poster sized glossy print is done... it'll look great on your office wall.

 

What a wonderfully misguided thought.

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russell_bynum

I use the same technique Ed does: set up early so that I have to wait for the turn-in moment. If you're just getting set at the last moment -- at the moment you need to turn in -- you're mentally behind, probably riding too fast (or too unfocused) and should slow down.

 

Normally I'd agree but one thing about Deal's Gap is the turns come one after another with very few straights in between. Imagine all of the turns on Pamolar's South Grade tied together back to back with no straight between them. Getting set early is nearly impossible.

 

Of course...a late apex helps straighten things out a bit to give you more time to get set.

 

I definitely agree on the last part, and David nailed it. The symptom was early turn-in, but the cause was "too fast". Drop your entry speed so your brain doesn't go into survival mode and force a turn when you shouldn't be turning.

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Sure, when the turns are back-to-back, there's not much time to wait, but it doesn't need to be for minutes. Plus on roads like that, I'd want to be reading a turn ahead for two reasons: so that my exit doesn't put me too hot into the next turn and to minimize the setup time for that next turn. All in all, this means I mostly go slow on tight, unfamiliar roads.

 

Edit: at base, I'd say that I value a good turn over a fast one even if I do sometimes sacrifce the former for the latter.

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ShovelStrokeEd

One thing I have learned on that road and similar ones in the area is to not get behind. If that means slowing a bit, so be it. I alluded to this in my earlier edit.

 

The line Mitch is taking out of that turn is gonna find him on the wrong side of the road to set up for that hard right that is coming up. Sure, he can steer back over to the left side of the road but that means he is going to have to spend more time turning right at the next corner and probably wind up early apexing that one too. That series of corners calls for very late apexes and follow through on all the turns so you are positioned for the next turn at the very exit point of the previous one. This results in much more time to get the right body position and to set your entry speed for the next corner.

 

This is not the fastest way around there as the necessary late apexes call for much slower entrance speeds but it sure reduces the hurry factor. These things can sneak up on you in that an error in line 2 corners back can lead to a progression resulting in being totally out of position for the current corner. DAMHIK!!

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Joe Frickin' Friday
Normally I'd agree but one thing about Deal's Gap is the turns come one after another with very few straights in between. Imagine all of the turns on Pamolar's South Grade tied together back to back with no straight between them. Getting set early is nearly impossible.

 

That's one of the reasons I really like the Cherohala: there's generally a little bit of straightaway before each turn, and in the rare cases when there's not, the turns are generally longer-radiused than those found in Deal's Gap, which means things happen a bit more slowly. Basically, you've got a bit of time to think and make sure you're all set before each turn begins - something that's pretty rare in Deal's Gap. In fact, if you follow through the photo sequence, you can see there's a 90-degree right, followed by a 180-left (where the photos are taken), followed by a 90-degree right, followed by another hard left that disappears around the final corner, all with pretty much no straightaway in between. And I feel like that's a big part of the problem, i.e. having to think to make this stuff happen. I feel like I ought to have made it a burned-in habit by now, getting past the "survivial instink" and just reflexively biting the mirror whenever the bike leans over.

 

I definitely agree on the last part, and David nailed it. The symptom was early turn-in, but the cause was "too fast". Drop your entry speed so your brain doesn't go into survival mode and force a turn when you shouldn't be turning.

 

Ayup, that's probably the biggest thing I did wrong, coming in too hot. I could say it was just from powering out of the previous turn, but that'd just be making excuses; there was plenty of room to brake harder, even bring the bike to a dead stop, before coming into this turn.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
What was your speed through that turn?

 

Running Deal's Gap, I bounce between second and third gears, but you won't catch me watching the speedo; that was probably second gear, so maybe 25 MPH?

 

There are also some days when you are just not in the game and there is nothing to be done but switch to smell the roses mode.

 

I guess it's worth noting that I had already done about 550 highway miles at this point. I was feeling pretty good in spite of it, so I opted for the Gap instead of I-40 east out of Knoxville. I might have done better if I had shot the Gap as part of a day ride instead...

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Mitch, your assessment is correct and the first shot says it all. It looks like an almost symmetrical front shot and the only thing off the centerline is your upper body. Move your butt further left and hang a knee out and you will not be scraping hard parts at 25mph. And of course, if your shocks are stock like mine, then any minor bump at this lean angle makes for spectacular fireworks.

 

Also don't feel that you have to apex a 180 degree left turn in typical cornering fashion (meaning right edge to left apex to right edge). Every hairpin is different and it depends on the camber (flat/off/banked), grade (uphill/downhill), lane width (wide/narrow), hairpin size (tight/lazy), etc.

 

I used to take a flat camber, uphill grade, wide lane, tight hairpin turn in my area in classical knee-dragging fashion at about 25-30mph only to find out some months later that if I went wide (staying in the right rut), my exit speed was higher by at least 5mph.

 

And all my references are to my RT and not the R1.

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Directed at o one, and everyone.

This is precisely why I go through the mountains at a sedate pace.

Try, not always successful, for late apex and a speed that allows me to stop if needed.

And it has been needed.

Every trip to the mountains I have had numerous bikes coming the other way who entered "too hot" and were over the double yellow heading at me/us.

If I had been riding the same way, wouldn't be here.

Then there are the deer, dogs, sightseeing tourists, wide running locals, children, rocks, etc...

Now in Mitch's photo, the series of turns is visible (after rounding the first one) and there isn't another vehicle oncoming.

But at Deal's Gap, once you miss a turn, it generally leads to a series of mistakes.

Leikam, have you ever ridden it?

Like Russell, I generall run the Gap in second gear (which on a GT gives you plenty of speed). With the Boxer 2nd and 3rd.

I agree with David.

Going too fast at the start leads to problems during, and at the end.

On a race track probably correctable as everyone is going the same direction (usually).

On the street, in the mountains, through the technical roads, it may require someone else to make a difficult maneuver to save your buns.

I don't want to rely on that.

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I just got back from Deals Gap - did it a week before you (April 17th).

 

All the body positioning stuff aside - which can be debated to death amongst those with 'opinions' :) - I think it was a simple mistake of 'too early in'. I think the biggest sins with that are twofold. 1) Three-quarters of your bike is leaning across the centerline in pics 2 and 3. If I'm coming from the other direction, I'm not going to be real happy being forced to accommodate your position in deciding upon MY line. And 2) anytime one sees that sandstone 'wall' to the inside of a turn at the Gap - it's likely a nearly-blind turn. My guess is you out-rode your sightline, meaning you were forced to react, rather than pro-act, all the way through the turn. Not good if a rider was down/oncoming in your lane just around the bend.

 

JMHO

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ElevenFifty

Thanks for sharing Joe, and all ... great lessons here.

 

The BMWGOA rally was last weekend up in the No GA mountains ... one of our members rode the gap with a really good camera setup. I saw the video a few hours later ....

 

About half way through the ride, a blur goes flying by in the opposite direction IN THE WRONG LANE!! Inches away from a collision ... happened so fast that if you blinked, you missed it. Very scarey.

 

That's the (potential) tragedy of Deals Gap ... it invites you to ride hard and too many people ride above their ability. I love the road ... early in the morning, on weekdays, during the school year.

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Back to OP direction.

I didn't mean to turn thread so far.

What David said.

Too fast, too soon turn in.

After 550 miles and with the rapid changes on that road, easy to happen.

There are many technical roads in this area.

Loss of focus results in a miss also.

On the Gap, hitting one curve just right is no guarantee you're set up properly for the next one.

Or the one after that.

Thanks for posting this.

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exwingnut

Thaks for posting the pictures, Mitch; and thanks to all the rest of you for your comments. I would not have thought to put the 'too fast entry speed' and 'turned into the apex too early' together which would explain a lot about why I find myself throwing the bike into the corner too early when I am trying too hard to go quickly.

 

A good ride and an opportunity to learn about riding better, Magnifico! :D

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russell_bynum
Leikam, have you ever ridden it?

 

No, I've never been to the mountains east of the Mississippi.

 

It's a great ride. It's hard to explain how relentless the corners are, though. There's nothing particularly difficult with regards to radius changes, chamber, etc but the corners are just one after another with very little time to rest.

 

Personally, I like it better than the Cherohala. Cherohala is a great road, but it's VERY fast (by that, I mean...if you're riding it as a sporty pace, your speed will be very high) and there are quite a few decreasing radius corners that will really kick your ass if you're not on top of things. Big corner speed freaks me out, so I take it easy on the Cherohala.

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Thanks for posting this, Mitch, and for the thoughtful analysis, everyone.

 

Great to have this all layout out with pics for us newer riders who are waiting for the next Ride Smart class.

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You call it crappy, I'm in awe. I dream of that kind of form and the brass to lean that far over. I wish I could take an advanced rider course but time and bucks get in the way.

Seeing the pics is a lesson, though, so thanks for posting. Gives me something to visualize next time I'm in the mountains.

What was your speed through that turn?

 

What he said!!!

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Matts_12GS
It's a great ride. It's hard to explain how relentless the corners are, though.

 

There are corners something on the order of 250 ft apart. Pretty much as you are out of one you're setting up the next which is why the mistakes that get made so often multiply so fast.

 

It is a great ride, and one I'll probably put back in the hopper for a future trip up there, but I too like the Cherohala much better, especially as a "training" road. On the skyway you get the chance to catch your breath between "sets" of corners. Think surfing...

 

You get 5-6 corners and then a little more lengthy straight to collect your thoughts. You can try a piece of technique for a "set" and then add another and another since it's 45 or so miles long. I also like the longer sweepers as they really reward good entry speed and body position with an extended sense of what you're doing. Great for muscls memory both physical and mental.

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Mitch,

 

It looks like you've got alot of weight in the seat instead of on the pegs.

 

When I get in the really tight stuff I'm usually not shifting much (2nd gear in most cases), so the balls of my feet are on the pegs and I try to weight the pegs more than I would in sweepers. I make sure I bend at the hips and I have to keep reminding myself to stay light on the bars (my main problem). My legs are burning after awhile of this and I know I'm doing it right at that point.

 

Also, I find that in some circumstances, looking too far ahead can get me turning in early. I try to pick the turn in point, then exit of each curve, but it happens fast and sometimes I skip an exit and look for the next turn in and that's when I get out of line.

 

 

 

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You call it crappy, I'm in awe. I dream of that kind of form and the brass to lean that far over.

 

I'll second that.

 

I get goosebumps looking at those lean angles. :o

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russell_bynum
You call it crappy, I'm in awe. I dream of that kind of form and the brass to lean that far over.

 

I'll second that.

 

I get goosebumps looking at those lean angles. :o

 

You folks are missing the point. The pictures show Mitch screwing up.

 

Mitch is an excellent rider, so rather than doing what most people do in that situation (Panic, stand the bike up and run wide off the road.) he used extra lean angle to bail himself out.

 

That's not a "Wow, I wish I could be like that!" moment, it's a "Wow...nice save." moment.

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Not that I've got a lot of expertise from which to comment, but the things that kind of jumped out to me from the photos...

 

I don't think you're getting yourself inside of the bike's line enough. You seem to be sort of taking the bike over with you instead of taking yourself inside while trying to leave the bike more upright. Which in the end is the real goal - to have a body position that allows the bike to lean less. Try to keep a mental thought about the bike being independent and on an outside track from yourself.

 

Your arms and elbows seem way high up in the air and as a result your wrist are bent way up instead of neutral or even slightly downward. This I suspect makes it harder to keep light on the bars and let the bike maintain (once established) it's own track. Also resulting in your body position negatively effecting the bike's (too far over) position. It also makes it harder to move your upper body inside when your high elbows are interfering with your shoulders/back movements.

 

And all the other stuff mentioned about butt back, more at the hips lean, balls of feet, apexing too soon, etc.

 

My .0175 (devaluation of the dollar).

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You call it crappy, I'm in awe. I dream of that kind of form and the brass to lean that far over.

 

I'll second that.

 

I get goosebumps looking at those lean angles. :o

 

You folks are missing the point. The pictures show Mitch screwing up.

 

Mitch is an excellent rider, so rather than doing what most people do in that situation (Panic, stand the bike up and run wide off the road.) he used extra lean angle to bail himself out.

 

That's not a "Wow, I wish I could be like that!" moment, it's a "Wow...nice save." moment.

 

Yep, you're right Russell.

 

Okay, WOW, nice save Mitch!

 

(but dang, you look impressive trying to save your a$$)

 

 

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Ya know, Mitch, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the mental aspect. Have you considered the possibility that you were distracted by Killboy? Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all accusing you of posing for the camera. But I do know that when I go through there, even though I don't consciously change anything when I see him, my sub-conscious is very aware of his presence.

 

I'm only suggesting that perhaps your sub-conscience is what caused you to blow the turn, not necessarily anything you did wrong.

 

As an aside, a lot of people think Killboy should be run off the mountain because of being a distraction. I'm not one of them, & that's not the context in which I use the word. I'm glad he's there, & hope he stays for a long time to come.

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russell_bynum
Ya know, Mitch, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the mental aspect. Have you considered the possibility that you were distracted by Killboy? Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all accusing you of posing for the camera. But I do know that when I go through there, even though I don't consciously change anything when I see him, my sub-conscious is very aware of his presence.

 

I'm only suggesting that perhaps your sub-conscience is what caused you to blow the turn, not necessarily anything you did wrong.

 

As an aside, a lot of people think Killboy should be run off the mountain because of being a distraction. I'm not one of them, & that's not the context in which I use the word. I'm glad he's there, & hope he stays for a long time to come.

 

I've never seen the guy. I mean...I know he's there and the next day the pics are proof, but as I'm riding, I've never seen him there.

 

I never see the photogs at the track either.

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Mitch,

I think you should not have tucked your pants into your boots. You lost some serious style points on that. :D Seriously, thanks for sharing. Despite your doubts, you point out lots of food for thought for us "lesser" riders.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
Ya know, Mitch, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the mental aspect. Have you considered the possibility that you were distracted by Killboy?

 

I'm inclined to agree with the assessment of David and others, i.e. I just went into the turn too hot to begin with, and the other stuff (particularly my line) was a consequence of that; I can't blame him for my choice of entry speed.

 

As an aside, a lot of people think Killboy should be run off the mountain because of being a distraction. I'm not one of them, & that's not the context in which I use the word. I'm glad he's there, & hope he stays for a long time to come.

 

Wow. People really will blame anything but themselves for their own crappy riding decisions, won't they? I'll admit to being possessed of a desire to look good on film, but that's not Killboy's fault. If the guy has a flare gun and is repeatedly firing shots across my bow, yeah, I'd call that a problem; but a dude standing quietly off to the side of the road with a camera? In terms of innate distraction value, not much different than a tree.

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Other obvious problems in this shot:

 

 

My butt should be farther back (see the gap in front of the backrest?).

 

Disagree. The RT's balance point, 'specially with the weight of all of those dang stickers, is snug up against the tank with your knees in the pockets to keep you from sliding forward during braking on that slippery seat - keeping your arms loose in the process. Once you are up front, you only have to worry about going side to side.

 

The Gap invites going in too hot on all those corners - there's not enough tarmac to have fun doing anything else. The RIGHT road for the RT is a bit further south on the Richard B Russell Parkway. That's fun, a good balance between the Cherohala and the Gap. Just right.

 

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Disagree. The RT's balance point, 'specially with the weight of all of those dang stickers, is snug up against the tank with your knees in the pockets to keep you from sliding forward during braking on that slippery seat - keeping your arms loose in the process. Once you are up front, you only have to worry about going side to side.

 

I think you might be missing the reason for our 'butt back' suggestions. It is not dealing with the balance point of the bike, it is to give you more room to bend your upper body forward, and inward from the hips. If balance point is an issue (and I wonder) then moving your main body mass forward, which you can do better with your butt back, accomplishes the same thing as being slid forward. And a whole lot more.

 

Being 'anchored' to the bike such that you can't slide forward during braking is accomplished with your thighs' side pressure and loading of your body weight on the pegs through the balls of your feet.

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Francois_Dumas
but a dude standing quietly off to the side of the road with a camera? In terms of innate distraction value, not much different than a tree.

 

 

..... unless you have a large ego I guess.....

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Dave_zoom_zoom

I have to appreciate the insight and desire to improve by Mitch and others. I'm sure it is that mindset that helps make the "good" even "better!

 

Many good insights and comments here.

 

I THANK ALL OF YOU. Your sharing of technique helps to confirm what I do know and learn what I don't know.

 

Dave

 

 

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Joe Frickin' Friday
but a dude standing quietly off to the side of the road with a camera? In terms of innate distraction value, not much different than a tree.

 

 

..... unless you have a large ego I guess.....

 

Again, something for which the cameraman cannot be blamed at all. ;-)

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I think you might be missing the reason for our 'butt back' suggestions. It is not dealing with the balance point of the bike, it is to give you more room to bend your upper body forward, and inward from the hips.

 

If that is the reason, then you are right - missed me entirely! I'm having a difficult time reconciling how keeping your butt back (if this is Ride Smart mantra) is useful on a touring bike. If it were a more performance oriented bike, the seating position would give one little choice - the entire seating geometry would be so that forward/backward movement would be out of the equation. It strikes me that the butt back position minimizes the thigh-to-tank contact, and promotes using your feet (notice Mitch's boot heels locked on the pegs) to stabilize everything. Leaning forward also means leaning to either side, so being up front shouldn't inhibit this. In fact, the seat is narrower up front, so in the event of wanting to lean off a bit you would need very little movement to do so, and it would be sideways only. Butt back puts one on the flat part of most saddles, which would splay your legs out which equals loss of thigh contact.

 

I've always felt "behind" the bike when riding aggressively in places like Deal's gap while sitting further back in the saddle. Perhaps that's my own personal deformed geometry at work, but I find it much easier to adjust to rapidly changing road and speed conditions when I'm up tight on the tank.

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Francois_Dumas

Being, and continuing to be, a beginner at this racing stuff I too was wondering about the 'other' thread (by Tom '3Putt'). I thought I saw he was sitting too straight up and figured it was at least partly caused by the big tank bag on the 1200RT.

 

Seeing Mitch here is much more forward.... but don't know if he has a tankbag?

 

I tried it out a little myself yesterday (we have a few turns on our IJsselmeer Dijk road) and found that I would automatically bend over more when turning in those curves.

 

I am not hanging out and not going as inclined as Mitch by a long shot, being a very conservative rider, but I sure would like to have a Killboy on our dike one day.... and see how bad I really do.

 

My tankbag isn't big (collapsed now), but it was when traveling on holiday and it most certainly prohibits extreme positions on the bike.

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On the track, you definitely want to be back--the main purpose is to keep your lower body from rotating AROUND the tank, instead of sliding laterally. A secondary purpose is that it's easier to lock your outside leg onto the tank. And finally, it promotes getting your upper body down and over the front contact patch. It's pretty cut and dried for the track: butt back.

 

On the street, however, there are good arguments on both sides.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
Seeing Mitch here is much more forward.... but don't know if he has a tankbag?

 

Check the third photo:

 

289106363_axbre-L.jpg

 

I do have a tankbag, and I hate it; it's way too bulky. The extra storage is nice for long trips (without the topcase), but it gets in the way when I'm trying to lean forward toward a mirror. Even with it unpacked, the slightest resistance against my stomach/ribs makes me relent, unless I consciously force myself to crush the tankbag with my gut; leaning forward comes much more naturally when it's not there. Ideally, by this fall I will find a smaller tankbag with a more favorable profile on its rear surface.

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Francois_Dumas

Ah, I didn't look close enough :-)

 

I bought a tankbag that is very flat, only an inch or so, and serves mainly as a map holder.... in practice however I left the bulkier bag on because it is so convenient to carry stuff (notably my camera). I do wish it would sit further forward indeed and leave more room to bend over.

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Rob_Mayes

I hate to sound like an idiot, but are you using your body lean to lean the bike or are you counter steering the cycle to get the lean and your body follows it? Some riders create the counter steering effect by leaning, but you can get the same effect by intensionally counter steering and then your body does not lean as much as the bike.

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Joe Frickin' Friday
I hate to sound like an idiot, but are you using your body lean to lean the bike or are you counter steering the cycle to get the lean and your body follows it? Some riders create the counter steering effect by leaning, but you can get the same effect by intensionally counter steering and then your body does not lean as much as the bike.

 

You can indeed steer the bike just with body english, but because of the inertia of the chassis it happens very slowly; for the stretch of road depicted in my photo sequence, no way can you get the bike to lean over rapidly enough just by hanging your body off to the side. You do get your body positioned first, but only because doing so later is likely to upset the bike. You get the bike to lean over (i.e. you start the whole turn) by applying countersteer inputs to the bars, effectively steering the bike out from under itself.

 

Moving your body weight off to the inside of the turn by a relatively modest amount will result in neutral steering, i.e. the bike will track through the curve nicely without any further handlebar inputs (after the initial countersteer to enter the turn); moving your body weight even further to the inside will improve cornering clearance (important on a fat pig of a bike like the RT) and orient the suspension more vertically for better performance over bumps and dips.

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Lineareagle

My BIG issue, and I have seen his almost everyday this year, is that being close to the line on a blind corner leaves absolutely NO room for the other squid coming the other way who is out at the line and maybe a little over it.

 

In your shots you have no room for that.

 

I am riding now to keep my wheels just inside the center of my own lane, off the oil soak.

 

Yep its slower but still fun and it takes care of some of the certainty that there is a dork out there on my side of the road.

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