Group Riding "non-riding" etiquette?

[PhillyFlash]

And if I screw up a line going through a turn (which happens more often than I care to admit), no one sees it but me.

 

That's not true. I saw you miss a line in Colorado once. I wrote it down in my journal.

 

Yep. It's in my journal, too. "Monday, July 22, 2002. 2:23 pm. Riding after lunch from Creede back to Gunnison. Fernando crossed center line on tight twisties." Is that the one?

[PhillyFlash]

Don't park so close that I can't even get my saddlebags open!!

 

Oops. Sorry.

[David]

Yep. It's in my journal, too. "Monday, July 22, 2002. 2:23 pm. Riding after lunch from Creede back to Gunnison. Fernando crossed center line on tight twisties." Is that the one?

 

Nope. "Chasing Cary. Who was chasing misguided two-up couple on Adventure. Sparks flying until we backed off. Observed FB three inches off appropriate line. Immediately noticed FB's PIAA 910s illuminated to hinder further observation in mirror."

 

--Gunnison Ride on Day 1

 

[PhillyFlash]

Yep. It's in my journal, too. "Monday, July 22, 2002. 2:23 pm. Riding after lunch from Creede back to Gunnison. Fernando crossed center line on tight twisties." Is that the one?

 

Nope. "Chasing Cary. Who was chasing misguided two-up couple on Adventure. Sparks flying until we backed off. Observed FB three inches off appropriate line. Immediately noticed FB's PIAA 910s illuminated to hinder further observation in mirror."

 

--Gunnison Ride on Day 1

 

 

Yep. Same ride.

[EffBee]

Yep. It's in my journal, too. "Monday, July 22, 2002. 2:23 pm. Riding after lunch from Creede back to Gunnison. Fernando crossed center line on tight twisties." Is that the one?

 

Nope. "Chasing Cary. Who was chasing misguided two-up couple on Adventure. Sparks flying until we backed off. Observed FB three inches off appropriate line. Immediately noticed FB's PIAA 910s illuminated to hinder further observation in mirror."

 

--Gunnison Ride on Day 1

 

 

Yep. Same ride.

 

Ha! And you thought those 910's were for road use!

 

Temporary hijack aside, I've ridden with both David and the Philly Flasher, and both are well-prepared, courteous riders. . .good examples of what this topic is about. They come prepared, they are generous, and they group ride as part of a team, not as the star of the team.

[Laney]

Temporary hijack aside, I've ridden with both David and the Philly Flasher, and both are well-prepared, courteous riders. . .

 

True, and add to that Philly often leads the slow ride.

 

[/hijack]

 

Hey, did anybody mention it's a nice thing if the group leader shares any knowledge of upcoming gravel roads, gas stations, or parking lots? It's nice for those of us with less experience in these things, and/or smaller muscles to deal with slips to have an option to make plans to hit the gas station before, or park across the street and walk over to meet the rest of you for lunch, etc.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Have some cash with you; forget about stressing over finding an ATM... it won't kill you to have a $20 bill in your pocket, but having some smaller bills comes in handy, too.

 

After withdrawing a stack of $20 bills from an ATM before a trip, I pay for cash items (usually just food) with a $20 bill for the first day or two, until I have a bunch of $1's, $5's, and $10's taking up space in my wallet. Not only does this make it easy to pay at group dinners and such without having to beg for change, but I am usually able to make change for others on such occasions.

[philbytx]

First group ride Deb and I went on (total of 4 bikes us being 2up), we met up at the "organizer's" home at the appointed time (8.00am) and his wife (also a rider!) then proceeded to tell us that he "discovered" at 7.30am that he needed a new tire due to the carcass showing through! He went to the local dealer to await their opening at 8.30!

 

He then returned around 9.15 and told us that he then needed to stop and gas up......the other rider was waiting for us about 25 miles away and didn't have a cell phone! We arrived to meet him 1 1/2 hrs late......then our group leader and he who waited proceeded to steam off into the distance....

 

So....What's my beef (and remember I AM entirely anal)?

Very simple, just make sure you and the bike are READY for the departure and don't waste other peoples valuable time........

[KMG_365]

Have some cash with you; forget about stressing over finding an ATM... it won't kill you to have a $20 bill in your pocket, but having some smaller bills comes in handy, too.

 

After withdrawing a stack of $20 bills from an ATM before a trip, I pay for cash items (usually just food) with a $20 bill for the first day or two, until I have a bunch of $1's, $5's, and $10's taking up space in my wallet. Not only does this make it easy to pay at group dinners and such without having to beg for change, but I am usually able to make change for others on such occasions.

Thanks, Mitch--I was just going to add that one!

 

I've been on a few group rides where we all sit down to eat and the restaurant won't do separate checks! If everyone needs to use their Credit/ATM card because they didn't bring any cash . . . "Houston, we have a problem!"

[Erick]

I've been on a few group rides where we all sit down to eat and the restaurant won't do separate checks! ...

Huh? Why would a restaurant refuse to do that? They want their money, don't they?

And even so, wouldn't you be able to sort it out without separate checks?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Huh? Why would a restaurant refuse to do that? They want their money, don't they?

 

Can be a hassle for the waitstaff when a large group is involved. Some restaurants make it a matter of policy. Other places it's not a big deal if there's maybe three or four people, but if you've got a small army there, asking for separate checks is just being cruel to the waitstaff.

 

And even so, wouldn't you be able to sort it out without separate checks?

 

Suppose you have a table of ten people, and that each person's share of the tab is $7-$10, and nobody at the table has anything smaller than a $20. Either the waitstaff is burdened with bringing back a wagonload of small bills, or one person pays with a credit card and everybody (maybe ) pays him back later, or whatever. Much easier for everyone (including the waitstaff) if each individual shows up with the ability to lay out just enough cash so that he/she doesn't need to ask for change back.

[Erick]

[About refusing separate checks]

 

Huh? Why would a restaurant refuse to do that? They want their money, don't they?

Can be a hassle for the waitstaff when a large group is involved. Some restaurants make it a matter of policy.

I would avoid such restaurants.

 

Other places it's not a big deal if there's maybe three or four people, but if you've got a small army there, asking for separate checks is just being cruel to the waitstaff.

Yup. That's where you simply don't ask for separate bills, but have one guy pick up three or four 20 dollar bills and walk across the road to the nearest bank in order to get some change.

 

At least, that's what I would think.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I would avoid such restaurants.

 

Even if they have awesome food? Even if the rest of your crew has already decided they're going to eat there?

 

Yup. That's where you simply don't ask for separate bills, but have one guy pick up three or four 20 dollar bills and walk across the road to the nearest bank in order to get some change.

 

You could do that...but the whole point of this thread is about how to prepare for (or behave during) group rides so that you avoid making someone else do extra work on your behalf.

[Yeeha! Stephen]

Gassing Up Etiquette...

 

I almost always pay cash for my trips. Gas, food, tips, hotels, everything.

 

Lately at fuel stops, I'm the only one going inside to pay. Everyone else is "Pay at the Pump". That makes me the last to pop in ear plugs, plug in wires, suit up, etc... Do I need to change my routine?

 

School me on the finer points of Upscale BMW Etiquette. I'm having a hard time here, holding the gas nozzle with my pinkie out.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

That's pretty much the way my friends and I do it. Actually, we sometimes take it a step further when the group is just a couple or four of us.

 

One guy hits the pump with his credit card, all gas up on the one card. The guy who pays for the gas gets a free ride at the dinner table. Lunch stops on any group bigger than 4 are always single check, add 25% tip (big tables are a PITA), divide equally by number of participants, one person at the table is the designated paymaster and he rules the change department. There is no silver change, everything to the nearest dollar. For the most part, we just pile the money in the center of the table and each takes out change as required, if the pile is short, the paymaster asks for more, if the pile is long, the waitstaff has a better day. If food or service is bad, the manager is appraised long before hand and an adjustment is made.

 

Nobody in my group bothers to count pennies or the like. Newcomers are informed of the arrangements and there has never been an issue. I appreciate that this system could get awkward with a large group but it serves our bunch of 3 to 6 pretty well.

 

Ed

[Rich_O]

This is a great topic. There are a couple of things mentioned here that I wanted to comment on.

 

The Handshake. I'm not a stickler for "gloves off". Ok, standing around, off the bikes, making introductions, gloves should definitely be off for hand shakes.

 

Now suppose I'm meeting a buddy for a ride someplace. He pulls up beside me at an intersection or gas station, first thing I want to do is shake hands. Gloves are no problem for me here. Same thing with a last g'bye at the end of a ride. Suited up, on bikes ready to depart, final handshake, leather-on-leather is no problem here.

 

Touch my bike. No problem, if I know you, especially if we're standing around talking about some mechanical thing, accessory installation or what-not. UH, not that anybody really wants to touch my bike.

[mrzoom]

OK!!! Let's practice all this and go ride!!

Seriously, with large groups food stops can be quick and easy.When I was den mother for my kids hockey team I was able to feed 17 kids and 10 adults in one hour flat by stopping at a buffet. True some of these can be eh, well..

but everyone paid the same price and got the food they liked. I put all on my card and collected later.

In fact since it was a new place the manager let me eat for free.

[Dan M]

One guy hits the pump with his credit card, all gas up on the one card. The guy who pays for the gas gets a free ride at the dinner table. Lunch stops on any group bigger than 4 are always single check, add 25% tip (big tables are a PITA), divide equally by number of participants, one person at the table is the designated paymaster and he rules the change department. There is no silver change, everything to the nearest dollar. For the most part, we just pile the money in the center of the table and each takes out change as required, if the pile is short, the paymaster asks for more, if the pile is long, the waitstaff has a better day. If food or service is bad, the manager is appraised long before hand and an adjustment is made.

 

Nobody in my group bothers to count pennies or the like. Newcomers are informed of the arrangements and there has never been an issue. I appreciate that this system could get awkward with a large group but it serves our bunch of 3 to 6 pretty well.

 

Ed

 

That's the way it should be Ed. I can't imagine a few guys riding $16,000 motorcycles quibbling over 5 bucks. Who cares who had fries?

[KMG_365]

Gassing Up Etiquette...

 

I almost always pay cash for my trips. Gas, food, tips, hotels, everything.

 

Lately at fuel stops, I'm the only one going inside to pay. Everyone else is "Pay at the Pump". That makes me the last to pop in ear plugs, plug in wires, suit up, etc... Do I need to change my routine?

 

School me on the finer points of Upscale BMW Etiquette. I'm having a hard time here, holding the gas nozzle with my pinkie out.

 

It's funny you should mention this one: I learned this the hard way also. I remember early on in my Sport Touring/Iron Butt/Group Riding career, stopping at an ARCO/AM-PM station because it was cheaper (in CA anyway, and it had islands where you could use your ATM card--thereby saving you time dealing with a cashier). Well, there was just one machine for each of four pumps, but no card reader at each individual pump, so folks had to actually get off the bike to pay for their gas! I was informed afterwards that "they" only stopped at "pay at the pump" stations to keep up a good pace!

 

 

 

And Erick,

 

Your notion of being able to pick and choose which restaurants you will patronize based on their willingness to accomodate separate checks is, well . . . "quaint" by "Western American" standards. Sometimes when crossing the western deserts, you are lucky to even find food and gas in a reasonable distance and one really can't afford to be too picky. "Ooooh, they're open!" is often the main, or even ONLY criterion!

[Erick]

I would avoid such restaurants.

Even if they have awesome food? Even if the rest of your crew has already decided they're going to eat there?

Sorry, you're absolutely right. Thanks for getting me back on track. I've had a good night's sleep right now, and can clearly see that I won't get a prize for the smartest-comments-of-the-day made in this thread.

 

Yup, group riders will need to prepare for several ways to pay for their expenses, including cards and small cash.

[kzz]

[...] If we ride in bigger (>10) groups we always lock the crossroads to keep the group together.

Is it legal in your country to 'lock' cross-roads that way? Do you need any kind of permit for that?

What if a car from such cross-road doesn't want to wait, takes off despite presence of the 'locker' and - according pending traffic laws - has right of way?

 

Well... locking the junction is not strictly permitted here but we don't do it on daily basis. When we're touring in bigger groups we do it on weekends when the traffic is lower and we always try to avoid the cities and the primary roads. Otherwise to lock a roundabout for 100 bikes requires about 1 minute of patience (and 10 secs for 10-12 bikes) from everybody else and we've got this patience. The presence of a mass of bikers on the hungarian roads somewhat uncommon sight, people often stop their cars to jump out and wave us.

If we need to lock the roads for a more serious reason we ask the police for permission and for motorcycle officers to help us. This happened recently by the occasion of our friend's funeral.

[R-1150-RS]

I think 'locking intersections' is bad form.

 

Since when does the convenience of remaining in a single group override other motorists' rights to not be arbitrarily detained??

 

It is not like the group cannot rejoin down the road.

It is not like the group doesn't know (or should!) where their next destination is and cannot meet there.

 

Why is it more a priority that they should not be inconvenienced in even such a minor way, to the inconvenience of other motorists?

 

I think for some the 'group ride' mentality has overtaken common sense and common courtesy. Because they are able to exercise the ability to organise an intersection block, and inconvenience others for the sole purpose of maintaining the group, they get an ego boast.

 

How shallow!

 

Gary

[santaferider]

I think for some the 'group ride' mentality has overtaken common sense and common courtesy.

 

Well said, Gary!

 

Etiquette, like many other things, is always a two way avenue.

 

I will continue to overtake slower riders, one at a time, if I can do it without endangering them, or myself.

[flyingreg]

And here's my little contribution. I haven't had a chance to read through the 80+ postings on this thread, so hope I'm not repeating someone. (I know this is a DB etiquette issue )

 

Aside from introducing ourselves before a ride, it is a good idea to exchange personal cell phone numbers for the unlikely event a rider gets separated from the group. This isn't such a big deal on short rides but on all day or multi-day rides, it is a must do. I have been on rides where one or more riders decided to split off from the group without telling anyone, thinking, "I'm a big boy and can do whatever I want cuz, I don't answer to you." I was not the ride leader, but I was still uncomfortable the rest of the ride. I never saw those cats again, and can't say I miss them.

 

Another item is the ride leader and sweeper should have each riders, emergency contact information. Usually, when this informnation is needed, you're in no shape to provide it.

 

I carry a laminated card with me on solo rides out of town that has all my emergency information on it, including contact info., prescription med. info., medication allergy info., etc. I wear this on a lanyard should I be found unconscious along side the road...

[kzz]

Gary,

 

I don't feel my 'ego boasting'. I think this is just a practical approach of handling a traffic situation and I can accept from anyone else as well. I often see and wait for group of trucks coming out from building sites. The drivers want to be together for a particular reason and they stop the traffic. So what? I relax and let'em go. In my opinion it's more safe to keep a motorcycle group together at decent speed than waiting or slowing down on the roadside for the missing drivers.

[mikef97]

Regarding group passing, my riding years have taught me that we encounter only two types, those with class and those without. The one's with are usually skilled and experienced, and the one's without are either unskilled, arrogant, or both. I know for a fact that if a group approaches ours, our back rider is immediately on the radio letting all of us know there is a group needing through, and we immediately do whatever is necessary while safe. We separate into groups of two bikers and give them space to ladder up ahead of us. We slow if passing time is tight. We wave them on and wave as they pass. Not bragging here, it's just a matter of knowledge of the circumstance and being polite. Our group has many times been the recipient of the classless attitude. If we come upon a slower group, we recognize they may not have radio communication. We wait until someone in their group recognizes the situation, sometimes it requires a "gentle" flick of the high beam. Then you just wait and see which type of group they are. Many times we have had to simply wait until the group ahead decided to stop, or we turned onto a different route. We always resist impolite gesturing or blasting past them because we recognize they may simply be a group of newer or unskilled riders that just haven't had a chance to learn yet. We want their brush with us to be pleasant and unoffensive. We may run into them at a stop down the road and a pleasant experience on the road certainly opens up the possibility of making new acquaintances. It's easy to assume that the group who won't let us pass is arrogant (or whatever term you care to use), but that requires an unpleasant mindset that the whole motorcycling experience is meant to avoid. And just a comment about radio communication. I have been on many trips without it, and certainly everyone gets along fine. But having the communication can make all the difference in the world. It's not just being able to share conversation along the way, but what a wonderful tool for letting each other know about spotted trouble, people needing to pass, a turn coming up, what happened to Tony?, a beautiful sight, a light out or an unlatched saddlebag, the list goes on.

[santaferider]

not only we should we concern ourselves with accomodating real needs of other vehicles with which we share the road, but we need to take into consideration traffic laws dictated by the different parts of the world where we ride.

 

For instance, in New Mexico the size of the group is limited by law, and in Washington State slower motorists should pull out and yield to faster traffic if they are slowing 5 or more vehicles behind them.

 

Using the gang approach to ignore those laws and to inconvenience other motorists is not something I would call "etiquette".

[Ken H.]

[hijack]

I think 'locking intersections' is bad form.

Plus, I think it's dangerous. One (or even two) bikes can't really effectively block a cage from pulling around and out if (s)he really wants to. And with road rage being all the rage these days, someone's going to get PO'ed at being blocked and go for it.

 

Heck we saw it happen last year on a large organized benefit ride where LEOs were doing the blocking. The guy in the SUV just said, -uck it, I'm going, and gunned around the LEO's bike and pulled across the intersection in the crowd, almost taking out three bikes in the process.

 

[/hijack]

[PhillyFlash]

Another item is the ride leader and sweeper should have each riders, emergency contact information. Usually, when this information is needed, you're in no shape to provide it.

 

I carry a laminated card with me on solo rides out of town that has all my emergency information on it, including contact info., prescription med. info., medication allergy info., etc. I wear this on a lanyard should I be found unconscious along side the road...

 

I think this is one of the most important ones mentioned. I do carry some contact information, but it is not always updated, and I don't carry any medical information. This is something that we all need to take seriously, because as said, when that info is needed, you're not always in a position to let people know where it is kept. If you're not carrying any contact info, it may be extremely difficult to locate a family member or friend in an emergency. While we don't necessarily need to exchange emergency info on every group ride, it might be good to have contact info in several places,both on our person and on the bike, to be sure that it can be located easily. On extended group rides (several days), it might be a good idea to actually exchange your info with a couple of others on the ride.

 

Contact information - good addition.

[Erick]

Contact information - good addition.

Yup, I agree. On the other hand, I suppose that most riders will have something like "Home" stored in their cell phone. Perhaps this would be something for a poll, in order to find out.

 

(And what about your driver's licence? Doesn't it mention your home address in the States?)

[PhillyFlash]

Contact information - good addition.

Yup, I agree. On the other hand, I suppose that most riders will have something like "Home" stored in their cell phone. Perhaps this would be something for a poll, in order to find out.

 

(And what about your driver's licence? Doesn't it mention your home address in the States?)

 

Yes, it does have home address, but some of us live alone, or there may not be anyone home during the day when you may have to contact them. Having the cell number of your SO or a family member would be helpful.

[ghan]

When you open my cell phone the greeting message says "Call Ivy".

 

In the numbers list are all of Miss Ivy's possible contact numbers.

 

If I'm ever found unresponsive and you can find my cell, you'll always know who to call.

 

I also carry a laminated card in my wallet with brief medical info (blood type, medication allergies) and Miss Ivy's cell phone number. It's the first thing you'll see when you open my wallet.

[R-1150-RS]

[hijack]

I think 'locking intersections' is bad form.

The guy in the SUV just said, -uck it, I'm going, and gunned around the LEO's bike and pulled across the intersection in the crowd, almost taking out three bikes in the process.

 

[/hijack]

You realy don't want to get me started on SUV's!

 

Trust me on this!

 

Gary

[Jim VonBaden]

[hijack]

I think 'locking intersections' is bad form.

The guy in the SUV just said, -uck it, I'm going, and gunned around the LEO's bike and pulled across the intersection in the crowd, almost taking out three bikes in the process.

 

[/hijack]

You realy don't want to get me started on SUV's!

 

Trust me on this!

 

Gary

 

Same here!

 

Jim

[SNC 1923]

I'm very new to group riding (out for 15 years) and am finding this thread really helpful and enjoyable to read (take off your gloves before shaking hands, take off your gloves before. . . . )

 

One guy hits the pump with his credit card, all gas up on the one card. The guy who pays for the gas gets a free ride at the dinner table. Lunch stops on any group bigger than 4 are always single check, add 25% tip (big tables are a PITA), divide equally by number of participants, one person at the table is the designated paymaster and he rules the change department. . . .

 

This above quote about how to pay is a great idea. I'm astonished at how many of us ask for separate checks, even in a group of three. Waitstaff work very hard for low wages and we all know this is a pain in the *** for them.

 

My philosophy has always been divide the check by the number of participants and be prepared to put in more than you spent. As someone said, "who cares who ordered the french fries?" And a 25% tip for good service on a <$10 entree is quite reasonable.

 

Another new and surprising convention is for everyone to put their ATM/credit cards in a pile. Waitstaff will gladly divide the bill by the number of cards and process each one; however, I still say cash is best. Be prepared with your own cash and NOT all $20s.

 

The idea of one rider buying gas, another rider buying lunch is brilliant, IMHO.

[Erick]

The idea of one rider buying gas, another rider buying lunch is brilliant, IMHO.

Great! Try that in Europe, then. You pay at the pump. <<evil grin>>

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

The idea of one rider buying gas, another rider buying lunch is brilliant, IMHO.

Great! Try that in Europe, then. You pay at the pump. <<evil grin>>

 

Works only if you eat at five-star chop houses for lunch...

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

Works only if you eat at five-star chop houses for lunch...

 

Hey Jim! Someone let the cat out of the bag!

[Couchrocket]

Hey Jamie,

 

Are you going to do a "distilled wisdom" summary of this thread? Might even be something that could end up a some kind of FAQ thing or something like that. Lots of good thinking here.

I'd hate to see it evaporate into cyber humidity.

[beemerman2k]

Allow me to emphasize the "emergency contact" issue. I am an insulin dependent diabetic and whenever I ride with a group, I let at least someone in that group know that. In fact, oftentimes I would reluctantly inform the group of my condition only to spark many other riders coming forth with their afflictions as well.

 

This is very important. In my case, if my blood sugar should fall too low because of the insulin I inject and maybe not enough food over the past hour or so, I could lose consciousness and unless someone was aware of my condition, no one would have any idea what was wrong with me. By the time an ambulance showed up, it may be too late.

 

I am very diligent about taking care of myself, and in the 10 years I've been riding with this condition, I have never had any issues. But I don't want to leave my buddies guessing should something ever happen either.

 

If you have a medical condition that could possibly -- be it ever so unlikely -- present problems while on the road, tell somebody!!! You'll be doing yourself and the group a major favor. Tell them what your affliction is, what the signs are of its presence (slowed thinking and/or erratic riding) and what to do in the unlikely event it should become a problem out in the middle of nowhere.

[Jim VonBaden]

...

 

This above quote about how to pay is a great idea. I'm astonished at how many of us ask for separate checks, even in a group of three. Waitstaff work very hard for low wages and we all know this is a pain in the *** for them.

 

My philosophy has always been divide the check by the number of participants and be prepared to put in more than you spent. As someone said, "who cares who ordered the french fries?" And a 25% tip for good service on a <$10 entree is quite reasonable.

 

Another new and surprising convention is for everyone to put their ATM/credit cards in a pile. Waitstaff will gladly divide the bill by the number of cards and process each one; however, I still say cash is best. Be prepared with your own cash and NOT all $20s.

 

The idea of one rider buying gas, another rider buying lunch is brilliant, IMHO.

 

I really don't mind having the checks divided. The waitstaff usually makes a bigger tip that way.

 

That said, we usually just pass the hat and everyone puts in their share. We generally end up tipping between 20-30%.

 

Jim

[KMG_365]

Couchrocket,

 

The thread has been "kept" so it will not autodelete after the allotted time to be available for searching, if people set the date range long enough. Good idea on the FAQ thing. Perhaps if no-one else steps up first, when I transfer to the "slow" station next month I'll get some time to work on that list of items. Thanks for the idea.

 

beemerman2k,

 

Wow, ten years as an IDDM rider without incident--that's pretty impressive. It also shows a pretty good discipline and healthy attitude towards your condition. I've ridden with a few IDDM riders from here and have been impressed with the candor about the situation. It really is a good idea to let your riding group know--before you take off on a long trip--and it certainly is nothing to be embarassed about.

 

 

As far as the shaking hands thing goes: here is a good synopsis from the US/business perspective. I've found that most Europeans are much more frequent hand-shakers than most Americans--especially my generation and younger and even in what would seem to be more informal situations. I just had a long chat with a prospective Firefighter candidate (a family friend of my Captian's) who had an interview coming up that he was preparing for. His handshake was weak, clammy and awkward as he looked at his shoes--we addressed that point first.

 

Of course, if you come out to California (or even if many of us Californians invade Torrey), be prepared to get hugged! Many of us Californians have no idea about etiquettte or impropriety! Of course, you can also take it to the other extreme: Here's a quote from the Men's Fashion of the 1840s

from The Handbook of Fashion, 1849 edition (first published in 1839)

 

"Among trivial matters, nothing, perhaps, more often distinguishes a gentleman from a plebeian, than the wearing of gloves. A gentleman has worn them so constantly from his earliest years, that he feels uncomfortably without them in the street, and he never suffers his hands to be bare for a moment; a vulgar person, on the contrary, finds himself incommoded by a warmth and confinement to which he is unaccustomed, and even if, in compliage with usage, he has supplied himself with what he deems unworthy of the expense, he will do no more than swing them between his fingers, or wrap them around his thumb. It is not enough that you carry gloves, you should wear them. It is a very common thing to see young men, parading upon some place of public promenade, expensively and even genteelly dressed, having canes, rings, &c.,-but without gloves. The ungloved hand is the cloven foot of their vulgarity.

 

In full-dress evening company, white or yellow gloves should be worn, but should be taken off in eating. But at a small evening party of thirty or forty persons, which is necessarily a half-dress occasion, it is more proper to wear dark gloves than white ones.

 

It is offensive to offer a gloved hand to a person, unless he, too, is gloved. If two persons meet one another and both have their gloves on, they should shake hands without removing them; men unfamiliar with the world often withdraw the glove on such an occasion, not considering that equality of position is the only thing to be desired. But if one draws off his glove, it would be the grossest rudeness for the other to retain his. As it is troublesome to be compelled to unglove, if you, having your glove off, salute one who has his glove on, you should not offer him your hand. The ceremony of shaking hands should, like every other that a gentleman performs, be done with deliberation and composure; if, therefore, there occur to yourself or the other party, any delay on occasion of this sort, you should wait without embarrassment or agitation, and quietly offer or receive the hand wherever it is prepared. In paying a morning visit, have one glove off, or partly off, in entering; for you may meet some gentleman of the family, with whom it would be necessary to exchange the hand.

 

 

In receiving company in one's own house, one should not be much dressed. A man should not wear gloves; not only because it is senseless and unmeaning, seeing that men, unlike women, only wear them abroad, but also because if any of the company had forgotten that part of his apparel, the gloves of his host would make him feel awkwardly. [ . . . ]

 

 

[steve.foote]

Whoa! Can't we all long for a simpler time when proper glove ettiquete was the dominant thought upon our minds.

[Bob Palin]

And Erick,

 

Your notion of being able to pick and choose which restaurants you will patronize based on their willingness to accomodate separate checks is, well . . . "quaint" by "Western American" standards. Sometimes when crossing the western deserts, you are lucky to even find food and gas in a reasonable distance and one really can't afford to be too picky. "Ooooh, they're open!" is often the main, or even ONLY criterion!

And when we eventually tempt him to Torrey he'll find the nearest bank is 17 miles away, makes for a long lunch if you go for change.

 

Hand shaking: gloves are OK if you are both wearing them, however, one bare hand requires another.

[hANNAbONE]

And if I screw up a line going through a turn (which happens more often than I care to admit), no one sees it but me.

 

That's not true. I saw you miss a line in Colorado once.

 

 

eR...uMMM - dAVID -- that be me..!!