ABS - How Important?

[T__]

Sorry, but you're wrong in your understanding of suspension and braking. For just one example (and I'm not going to get mired in this nonsense), compression damping is the issue here, and you typically set compression damping last, looking for about 1 second of travel time. You can easily lock a front wheel (invoking ABS) in significantly less time. Adding front brakes firmly but gradually allows the suspension to remain in its middle third, where it is most likely to follow the road surface. The BMW suspension setup makes very little difference. It masks dive--but not weight transfer. And by "locking" the front too quickly, you lose the impact of rear braking.

 

David, NO, braking performance is the issue here.. Plus I seriously doubt you can lock a BMW front brake in significantly less than a second..

 

Adding front brake firmly but gradually gives good solid braking performance & good wheel control but you are adding to the total stopping distance.. Fine for braking for corners or braking while evading danger but not for shortest stopping distance.. Every foot you travel at less than max (usable) braking force is adding to stopping distance..

 

Twisty

[David]

Sorry, but you're wrong in your understanding of suspension and braking. For just one example (and I'm not going to get mired in this nonsense), compression damping is the issue here, and you typically set compression damping last, looking for about 1 second of travel time. You can easily lock a front wheel (invoking ABS) in significantly less time. Adding front brakes firmly but gradually allows the suspension to remain in its middle third, where it is most likely to follow the road surface. The BMW suspension setup makes very little difference. It masks dive--but not weight transfer. And by "locking" the front too quickly, you lose the impact of rear braking.

 

David, NO, braking performance is the issue here.. Plus I seriously doubt you can lock a BMW front brake in significantly less than a second..

 

Adding front brake firmly but gradually gives good solid braking performance & good wheel control but you are adding to the total stopping distance.. Fine for braking for corners or braking while evading danger but not for shortest stopping distance.. Every foot you travel at less than max (usable) braking force is adding to stopping distance..

 

Twisty, you're just flat wrong, and since you aren't open to that fact, I'd urge you to learn braking from people like Kevin Schwantz, Freddie Spender, Keith Code, and any other world class champion. I'm no braking master, but I have spent considerable time with each of these folks, and they all say you're wrong.

 

What are your credentials?

[russell_bynum]

It appears my many years of experience have programmed me to brake in a way that keeps me from locking up the front wheel. This method clearly will not provide the full benefit of ABS in an emergency.

 

Forget ABS, not knowing where that traction limit is keeps you from using the full stopping potential of the bike. If you haven't gotten to the point of ABS engagement, then you amost certainly haven't gotten to max braking pressure and you could therefore benefit from more tests and practice.

 

These bikes really are pretty amazing in their braking performance. Most people don't realize just how much traction is really available.

[russell_bynum]

Plus I seriously doubt you can lock a BMW front brake in significantly less than a second..

 

I did it repeatedly on my R1100RT. I have done it on Lisa's R1100RS. I have done it on every single bike that I've owned and many bikes that I've ridden.

[T__]

Sorry, but you're wrong in your understanding of suspension and braking. For just one example (and I'm not going to get mired in this nonsense), compression damping is the issue here, and you typically set compression damping last, looking for about 1 second of travel time. You can easily lock a front wheel (invoking ABS) in significantly less time. Adding front brakes firmly but gradually allows the suspension to remain in its middle third, where it is most likely to follow the road surface. The BMW suspension setup makes very little difference. It masks dive--but not weight transfer. And by "locking" the front too quickly, you lose the impact of rear braking.

 

David, NO, braking performance is the issue here.. Plus I seriously doubt you can lock a BMW front brake in significantly less than a second..

 

Adding front brake firmly but gradually gives good solid braking performance & good wheel control but you are adding to the total stopping distance.. Fine for braking for corners or braking while evading danger but not for shortest stopping distance.. Every foot you travel at less than max (usable) braking force is adding to stopping distance..

 

Twisty, you're just flat wrong, and since you aren't open to that fact, I'd urge you to learn braking from people like Kevin Schwantz, Freddie Spender, Keith Code, and any other world class champion. I'm no braking master, but I have spent considerable time with each of these folks, and they all say you're wrong.

 

What are your credentials?

 

 

David, you say I’m wrong & I say you are wrong so where does that leave us?

 

I have a good back ground in chassis controls (been doing it for over 40 years) & have been working advanced engineering for a major motor company for over 30 years now..

 

Those names you mentioned,,, I presume they do max G (shortest distance) brake testing for a living?

 

I guess about all we can do is take similar bikes & do a couple of 80 mph max braking events 80 to 0 mph on unfamiliar road surfaces at a not known in advance command from a 3rd party.. You on a non ABS system & me on an ABS system_ that will tell the truth won’t it?

 

Twisty

[russell_bynum]

Actually you are incorrect.. Are you trying to convince me that you can transfer weight to the front end faster than the compression dampening can react.. NO WAY

 

I've seen it happen on bikes that I was riding. We used to do it regularly on Lisa's K75 (notoriously weak front end). With a zip-tie on the fork slider, if I just "grabbed a handful", the forks would actually bottom out. The zip-tie proved it. If I brought the brakes in smoothly over about a 1-second period, the compression was considerably less.

 

BTW, when the forks bottomed, the front wheel locked.

 

That's an extreme example, but it illustrates the point very well.

 

In any case the late BMW’s have a geometric anti dive designed in so they control arm angle actually is such that there is little dive & the harder you brake the more lift it puts in..

 

I mentioned that in an earlier post. Yes, Telelever helps with this. But you can't change the laws of physics.

 

 

That sounds like you had PLENTY of real estate & time to AVOID.. If you have the room most competent riders can avoid a situation even while braking.. Put yourself 50 feet closer & at the same speed & see if you can avoid while braking..

 

I think you missed the point. If the cars had been stopped when they came into view, I would have hit them if I hadn't swerved. I did not brake to a stop in time to avoid the accident. (btw, that means I was going too fast for my sight lines...but that's a whole different story) The story was meant to demonstrate how, in a "panic" situation where your senses are suddenly overloaded, you will fall back on your training. Unless you don't have training, in which case you will fall back on your survival reactions...which will frequently get you killed on a motorcycle.

 

In that situation, without any conscious thought about braking, I applied both brakes, and modulated the front very close to the point of lockup, even going through the slip/grip transition a few times...all without thinking. I did that not because I'm some amazing rider...I'm not. It's because I spent a few hours a month working on braking and had replaced "grab a handful" with the proper response in the place where my brain stores the appropriate response when faced with the need to "STOP RIGHT NOW".

 

But there are situations where you still need to stop in the required distance & if you give up precious stopping distance due slow pressure build or taper braking then that is means you just hit harder or won’t stop in time..

 

Absolutely. I'm not talking about gently and slowly squeezing the lever. I'm just talking about smoothly and progressively bringing the brakes up to pressure rather than just "grabbing a handful".

 

 

Most riders go most of their life without doing a max G braking event.

 

I agree 100% and that's EXACTLY what I'm arguing here. There's NO reason that the average rider shouldn't be able to develop reasonably good braking skills and displacing their survival reaction with a more appropriate one. They don't because they're lazy. Or they use the cop-out that they're not Valentino Rossi, so they could never learn how to brake well. No...I'm not going to be able to out-brake Nori Haga by spending a couple of hours a month in the parking lot, but I can certainly get my skills to the point where they're much more likely to help me stay alive when I need them. Hell...most of the golfers that I know spend a couple of hours a month standing at a driving range hitting litle white balls with a long crooked stick. They're working on their swing. Having a good swing means you might hit the ball farther than your friend...it's hardly a life/death skill. But most motorcyclists spend more time washing their bikes than they do learning how to ride properly. There's no good reason for that.

 

It’s that once in a lifetime event that you need the max decel & you won’t get there by pussing around on that darn brake lever..

 

I agree totally. Again, I'm not talking about "pussing around" with it. Just bring the pressure up smoothly rather than just jamming as much pressure into the system as fast as you can.

 

Actually if you have ABS you CAN GRAB A HANDFUL..

 

You can, but it is not going to produce the most favorable outcome.

 

In an emergency you can & MOST riders WILL..

 

Yep, but only because they haven't taken the time to learn how to brake properly.

 

Look at the motorcycle ABS vs. non ABS braking tests.. NO, not you in a parking lot fooling around but actual documented testing.. With few exceptions the ABS bike will out-brake a like non ABS bike

 

Why is my experience, repeated over and over and over on many different bikes not valid?

 

On my 2000 RT (ABS, non-linked, non-servo assist), I tried four different methods for stopping:

1. Jam on the brakes as hard and fast as I could. Let the ABS sort it out.

2. Bring the brakes up to pressure smoothly to the point of ABS engagement. Hold that pressure and let ABS sort it out.

3. Bring the brakes up to pressure smoothly and manually manage pressure to maintain maximum braking force without engaging the ABS.

4. Disable ABS. Bring the brakes up to pressure smoothly and manually manage pressure to maintain maximum braking force.

 

Method 1 (aka the "Grab a handful" method) ALWAYS resulted in the worst stopping distance. 12-15 feet more than the best of the others from 45mph.

 

Method 2 (brake intelligently, but when ABS kicks in, just leave the brakes applied) resulted in the 3rd worst stopping distance, but was the most consistent. It was generally about 6 feet better than the idiot method.

 

Method 3 (brake intelligently and try to stay out of the ABS) would get the bike stopped anywhere from almost even with method 2 to 2-3 feet better (an improvement of 6-9 feet over the idiot method), depending on how good I did.

 

Method 4 (disable ABS and brake intelligently) was the most variable. When I got it really right, I would stop 12-15 feet shorter than the idiot method. When I didn't, the worst case was slightly longer than the idiot method.

 

 

I repeated this over and over, month after month. Unless someone can tell me otherwise, I have no reason to believe my test was flawed.

 

BTW, the situation started to change in favor of ABS when the pavement was wet and/or had a mix of conditions that I had to respond to. But under NO condition was it EVER better to just "Grab a handful" than if I brought the brakes up to pressure smoothly.

 

Again I must disagree.. Linked brakes allow both brakes to operate from a single apply point but it takes an ABS system to allow individual control with an apply from that single point..

 

I suppose you can disagree if you want. You're absolutely, dead wrong, but you're welcome to your opinion.

 

ABS uses wheel speed sensors at each wheel to monitor that wheel for the teltell acceleration that indicates a slide. When it detects that, it reduces brake pressure to that wheels' calipers.

 

Linking takes the rider input from one control lever and transfers that into brake pressure at both wheel's calipers. That has absolutely nothing to do with ABS.

 

It is a part of the braking system and can impact the bike's braking performance, but it has absolutely nothing to do with ABS.

[David]

Those names you mentioned,,, I presume they do max G (shortest distance) brake testing for a living?

 

You're kidding, right? You don't know who they are? Only the best riders in the world who are now teaching.

 

Like I said in my first post, these threads are usually nonsense--a lot of internet keyboard action without peer review.

 

Do some reading on the subject, ask the world's best riders, and finally, please don't transfer your car engineering to motorcycle chassis control without some filtering. They are different animals. How many cars, without ABS, can throw the rear in the air? How many have separate controls for front and rear braking? How many must account for significant lean and the impact on suspension systems that are no longer vertical? Each of these factors, to name just a few, is important when considering braking activation.

 

I'm moving on--thanks for the "interesting" chat.

[Jake]

You guys are smoking crack. I'm with Twisty1.

 

Here

 

Here

 

and as posted by Twisty1 earlier, here.

 

Crack, I say.

[David]

Huh? That first article, at least, is about ABS. I'm not talking about ABS (read back through my comments). I'm talking about initial braking application, whether ABS or not.

 

Don't confuse things--I love ABS, especially on the street. That's not what I'm talking about.

[russell_bynum]

Huh? That first article, at least, is about ABS. I'm not talking about ABS (read back through my comments). I'm talking about initial braking application, whether ABS or not.

 

+1

[Motorrad4fun]

Wet road, woman on cell phone runs red light. Engaged brake, maneuvered around rear bumper of car @ 45 MPH.

 

I give credit to my 26 years of riding and ABS breaking system, without either I would have nailed her car....

 

I will never own another road bike without ABS. I do no care how good you are, the brain is only so fast!!

 

ABS saved my Butt that day..!!

 

 

My 5 cents worth on the subject......

[Jake]

(edit: reply to David)

 

OK, I'm an open minded guy, search your feelings you know it to be true. I'm willing to be convinced of:

 

A) You are not actually smoking crack.

 

and/or

 

B) Modulation of over-abundance of initial braking application (a/k/a compression dampening overload) by the average decent rider can be accomplished and produces shorter stopping distances, as opposed to "grabbing a handful" on an ABS equipped bike.

 

If you have evidence, I'd be very interested to see it. Twisty1 is doing a fine job of speaking for himself, but, I believe he is saying that the acceleration of braking is faster by grabbing that handful on an ABS equipped bike than it would be by smoothly-but-quickly applying the brakes in the manner by which you and Russell espouse. I am inclined to agree with Twisty1.

 

Furthermore, I'm guessing that he absolutely knows who Keith Code, Freddy Spencer, and Kevin Schwantz are, and rightfully asked if those guys study maximum braking for a living, which they don't. They are cocky fast mo-fos - who don't want anything unnatural between them and their brakes. Makes sense to me for track use.

 

Our scenario is panic braking, and whether ABS equipped bikes are the better choice. There is more than one experienced rider out there who left skid marks on the road before passing from this life. Using Code's terminology, you are going to spend that entire dollar of attention on stopping your bike when presented with the dreaded panic scenario. When "oh $hit" crosses your mind, no one, not you nor Russell, is going to fall back on training and modulation. If you think you are, you are kidding yourselves.

[T__]

(edit: reply to David)

 

OK, I'm an open minded guy, search your feelings you know it to be true. I'm willing to be convinced of:

 

A) You are not actually smoking crack.

 

and/or

 

B) Modulation of over-abundance of initial braking application (a/k/a compression dampening overload) by the average decent rider can be accomplished and produces shorter stopping distances, as opposed to "grabbing a handful" on an ABS equipped bike.

 

If you have evidence, I'd be very interested to see it. Twisty1 is doing a fine job of speaking for himself, but, I believe he is saying that the acceleration of braking is faster by grabbing that handful on an ABS equipped bike than it would be by smoothly-but-quickly applying the brakes in the manner by which you and Russell espouse. I am inclined to agree with Twisty1.

 

Furthermore, I'm guessing that he absolutely knows who Keith Code, Freddy Spencer, and Kevin Schwantz are, and rightfully asked if those guys study maximum braking for a living, which they don't. They are cocky fast mo-fos - who don't want anything unnatural between them and their brakes. Makes sense to me for track use.

 

Our scenario is panic braking, and whether ABS equipped bikes are the better choice. There is more than one experienced rider out there who left skid marks on the road before passing from this life. Using Code's terminology, you are going to spend that entire dollar of attention on stopping your bike when presented with the dreaded panic scenario. When "oh $hit" crosses your mind, no one, not you nor Russell, is going to fall back on training and modulation. If you think you are, you are kidding yourselves.

 

 

Jake, I think we (Russell David, Me) might be kind of talking (well close to arguing) about different types of bikes here..

It dawned on me that they might be more referring to the light weight short wheel base sport bikes that lift the rear wheel easily (obviously those can’t be stopped with too much front brake force or they will flip over forwards).. On the other hand I am referring to the cruisers & sport touring type bikes (this was/is an ABS thread on a BMW sport touring B. board) that are very difficult to over brake the front & lift a rear wheel..

 

If you want some real live DOT approved test data of linked vs non linked & ABS vs non ABS (only shows early non servo BMW though) just click the link below & wait for it to load.. Being an engineer I really liked the brake pressure build data as basically shows the test riders trust in the ABS system to allow him to get it quickly to the max force window without over braking..

 

If you are not used to engineering graphics this might be Greek to some people..

 

ABS test data_Click Here

 

Twisty

[ShovelStrokeEd]

When "oh $hit" crosses your mind, no one, not you nor Russell, is going to fall back on training and modulation. If you think you are, you are kidding yourselves.

 

Damn, I hate these discussions and get pissed at myself every time I get drawn into one of them.

 

First off, Jake, you couldn't be more wrong. When "Oh Shit" crosses your mind, you will do exactly what you have been trained to do. If you have no training, you will do the survival reaction thing, which is to tense up (fight or flight) go into brain lock and "grab that handful". The entire purpose of training is to modify that survival reaction so that you will do what is right without having to think about it and thereby free your mind to work out a solution to your problem. That solution may well be to continue braking at maximum level until you come to a stop or it might be brake to a better speed and then turn the bike to avoid the obstacle. It might even be jump straight up in the air, spin around twice and bite yourself in the ankle. At least you will be able to think about it instead of staying locked into panic mode.

 

To those who have spoken about riding their bikes for X number of miles and never having engaged ABS, you have done yourself a disservice. You have no idea of just how hard your bike can stop and therefore have deprived yourself of a piece of valuable information. Valuable in that you only have a little time to make a decision as to what options are available to you and you don't know the parameters with which you are working.

 

I tend to side with Russell on the method of application and mostly for the reasons he has stated, including my own testing on a variety of bike I have owned and/or ridden. I also spend an hour or so a week working on my braking skills, not always panic braking but various other stuff as well, like use of the front or rear brakes in a turn, balancing rear brake against throttle in a slow speed U-turn and other stuff that occurs to me. Why? I want to be ready for whatever comes my way.

 

I happen to be a big fan of ABS, BTW. Without it, threshold braking, at least with the front wheel, is scary as hell. Yeah, with experience, you can recover from a front wheel slide, even a pretty good attempt by the bike to tuck the front wheel. ABS allows you to experience the extreme level of braking without the inherent danger of falling, a good thing.

 

Oddly enough though, none of the bikes I am currently riding has ABS. Its availabilty will be a consideration of I buy a new one but it won't be a deal breaker or a deal maker for me.

[Jake]

Sorry to drag you into this Ed, don't be too hard on yourself! (the beer offer is still good tho)

 

I don't mean to diminish the value of threshold braking practice at all. Note to everyone - practice until your wrists and knuckles bleed, please.

 

Repetitive training is certainly very worthwhile, and one can expect to provide peak performance in controlled conditions. Any trainer (Athletics, Flight Instructors, etc) will tell you that in less than perfect conditions one cannot be expected to perform at their peak, which is why you practice - to get close when the pressure's on. This is where ABS comes in - it's a safety net, not to be relied on, but there when you need it. Russell admitted to not getting his stopping distances perfect everytime. Even Big Cliff Lazarenko doesn't always hit the bulls-eye, and few threw more practice darts than him. It's also why a shotgun beats a .22 for home defense.

 

So, respectfully, I'm bloody well right.

[Lawman]

Can someone explain to me the difference between "grabbing a handful of brake" and "braking hard" because to practice my braking skills I need to know how to brake hard but I sure never want to grab a handful of brake..

 

So might there be a time when I actually do want to "grab a handful of brake"?

[David]

I'm willing to be convinced that...modulation of over-abundance of initial braking application (a/k/a compression dampening overload) by the average decent rider can be accomplished and produces shorter stopping distances, as opposed to "grabbing a handful" on an ABS equipped bike.

 

So we already know that engaging ABS lengthens stopping distance. And you need convincing that doing so lengthens stopping distance? I give up.

 

I am NOT saying ABS is bad. ABS is good.

 

I AM saying that immediately aiming for ABS activation lengthens stopping distance. So if you "grab a handful" in a panic, fine. At least you'll scrub off speed. But to intentionally do that? And teach yourself that's alright?

 

Again, this time a little slower:

 

1) The front suspension must load before you have maximum traction.

 

2) "Grabbing a handful" to do that causes the front to overload, rebound back, and lose some traction, especially if the surface isn't smooth.

 

3) "Grabbing a handful" wastes much of the available traction in the rear (even on a sport touring bike that's heavy back there). The rear is more effective at the beginning of a stopping sequence, and the front is more effective after the bike settles.

 

If you all need proof of that, we're starting way back at the stage where I'm going to have to prove gravity to you.

 

Furthermore, I'm guessing that he absolutely knows who Keith Code, Freddy Spencer, and Kevin Schwantz are, and rightfully asked if those guys study maximum braking for a living, which they don't. They are cocky fast mo-fos - who don't want anything unnatural between them and their brakes. Makes sense to me for track use.

 

I'm tired of people making artificial distinctions between the road and track where they are not necessary, especially if they haven't been on a track or listened to any of these guys firsthand. And the rest of the sentence makes no sense to me. You think they want to take longer to stop? I don't understand, and I think it takes quite a bit of nerve to dismiss what the fastest, best brakers in the world all have to say about initiating braking. Incidentally, none would have any objection to ABS off the track. But initiation of hard braking is the same, off or on.

 

Our scenario is panic braking, and whether ABS equipped bikes are the better choice.

 

Huh? That wasn't MY subject. Someone else brought up initial braking and I gave them my thoughts. I hope you all do a better job braking than reading.

[Jake]

I'm willing to be convinced that...modulation of over-abundance of initial braking application (a/k/a compression dampening overload) by the average decent rider can be accomplished and produces shorter stopping distances, as opposed to "grabbing a handful" on an ABS equipped bike.

 

So we already know that engaging ABS lengthens stopping distance. And you need convincing that doing so lengthens stopping distance? I give up. We don't know that, and the references don't suggest that in real world conditions for most riders.

 

I am NOT saying ABS is bad. ABS is good. I know, you already said that.

 

I AM saying that immediately aiming for ABS activation lengthens stopping distance. So if you "grab a handful" in a panic, fine. At least you'll scrub off speed. But to intentionally do that? And teach yourself that's alright? No one is claiming it's ok to rely on ABS

 

Again, this time a little slower: Thanks - I'm slow - I went to a state school.

 

1) The front suspension must load before you have maximum traction. Agreed.

 

2) "Grabbing a handful" to do that causes the front to overload, rebound back, and lose some traction, especially if the surface isn't smooth. Agreed.

 

3) "Grabbing a handful" wastes much of the available traction in the rear (even on a sport touring bike that's heavy back there). The rear is more effective at the beginning of a stopping sequence, and the front is more effective after the bike settles. Agreed.

 

If you all need proof of that, we're starting way back at the stage where I'm going to have to prove gravity to you. I think we're with you, boss.

 

Furthermore, I'm guessing that he absolutely knows who Keith Code, Freddy Spencer, and Kevin Schwantz are, and rightfully asked if those guys study maximum braking for a living, which they don't. They are cocky fast mo-fos - who don't want anything unnatural between them and their brakes. Makes sense to me for track use.

 

I'm tired of people making artificial distinctions between the road and track where they are not necessary, especially if they haven't been on a track or listened to any of these guys firsthand. Sorry, didn't mean to offend. And the rest of the sentence makes no sense to me. You think they want to take longer to stop? I don't understand, and I think it takes quite a bit of nerve to dismiss what the fastest, best brakers in the world all have to say about initiating braking. That's just me being me, but I didn't dismiss them.Incidentally, none would have any objection to ABS off the track. Are you making road/track distinctions? I thought we agreed that wasn't nice! But seriously, Keith Code said ABS is useful for those who panic. I agree, people panic. But initiation of hard braking is the same, off or on. Agreed

 

Our scenario is panic braking, and whether ABS equipped bikes are the better choice.

 

Huh? That wasn't MY subject. Someone else brought up initial braking and I gave them my thoughts. I hope you all do a better job braking than reading.

 

My mistake - I thought your response was taking into consideration the whole point of this thread. I presumed you were advocating that measured-but-firm brake modulation would stop - not slow like on the track - but stop your bike faster than hitting the brakes hard, for most riders, in real world conditions. That must not have been what you were saying, because you would have been wrong, and we know how much you hate that.

[minatophase3]

Ok, since I started this thread hopefully I can end it. A lot of good stuff mixed in here and I would like to thank those that took the time to reply.

 

But I am a little confused, do I need ABS?

[taters]

when the chp went to abs their accident rate dropped 30% at least that's what a nhp officer told me

[russell_bynum]

When "oh $hit" crosses your mind, no one, not you nor Russell, is going to fall back on training and modulation. If you think you are, you are kidding yourselves.

 

Did you read my story above? If coming around a blind corner at night and meeting up with two oncomming cars, one in your lane, both with their high beams on isn't an "Oh sh!t" moment, then I don't know what is.

[Jake]

C'mon, there was plenty of room! Just aim for the dark spot between 'em!

[russell_bynum]

I presumed you were advocating that measured-but-firm brake modulation would stop - not slow like on the track - but stop your bike faster than hitting the brakes hard, for most riders, in real world conditions.

 

Do the laws of phyics change if you don't intend to take the braking event all the way to a stop? Do they change if you are at a track vs. street?

 

We're talking about proper braking technique here. It doesn't make any difference if you have ABS or not...if you brake properly, you will stop the bike better than if you just "grab a handful".

 

It doesn't make any difference if you are on a sport bike in a race slowing from 180mph to 40mph for a tight corner, or on a GoldWing slowing from 70mph to 0mph to avoid Bambi.

[leikam]

Tim, I think most everybody here is in favor of ABS even if some are sadly mistaken about how it works, the benefit it offers and the importance of arguing this subject to death.

 

Now, back to the melee currently in progress...

 

(oh, and check your private messages)

[minatophase3]

(oh, and check your private messages)

 

I did get your message and tried to reply to you but it said your PM box was full.

 

Tim

[russell_bynum]

C'mon, there was plenty of room! Just aim for the dark spot between 'em!

 

 

Seriously, though...

 

No, you can't be expected to perform at peak in a panic situation. But you can absolutely expect to improve on what you would do with your survival reactions alone if you train regularly.

 

In my story, ABS would have allowed me to do a better job of slowing the bike because although I did a pretty good job with the front, I did slide the rear. ABS would have helped with that and put me in an even better situation.

 

I'm not Anti-ABS at all. I'm anti-idiot.

 

Understand how the system works and what it can and can not do for you. ABS can not, for example, violate the laws of physics. It will help haul you back from the brink of disaster if YOU attempt to violate the laws of physics....but you will always be better off if you strive to always brake properly as if you didn't have ABS.

 

Which, by the way, is also great advice in case you ever ride a bike without ABS, or if your ABS fails sometime.

 

I'll say it again...there's absolutely ZERO reason to brake like an idiot, and every reason to always strive to brake properly (and have ABS there to bail you out when you don't get it done.)

[leikam]

Try again. I didn't know that there was a PM limit or that I'd reached it.

[Jake]

I'll say it again...there's absolutely ZERO reason to brake like an idiot, and every reason to always strive to brake properly (and have ABS there to bail you out when you don't get it done.)

REVEREND!

[David]

My mistake - I thought your response was taking into consideration the whole point of this thread. I presumed you were advocating that measured-but-firm brake modulation would stop...your bike faster than hitting the brakes hard, for most riders, in real world conditions. That must not have been what you were saying, because you would have been wrong, and we know how much you hate that.

 

The issue is not real world conditions--the issue is whether people treat this as a hobby for fun or a sport that can kill you. The same "real world conditions" are there for the rider who works at his skills and the driver who doesn't. If any rider wants to stop faster, they ought to work on those skills, and the ones we've been talking about are a) taming your panic instinct to not "grab a handful" but instead modulate very forcefully and b) keep the braking at the edge of ABS engagement (and if you brake too much, or the surface changes suddenly, ABS will be there to help). Those are two important things, and all of the smirking aside, they can make the difference between life and death. That matters to me precisely BECAUSE real world conditions are tough to predict.

 

I am not morally comfortable telling people to not worry about it and just "grab a handful." I care too much about that, and I've spent hundreds of unpaid hours trying to teach people to survive (informally, and formally via RidingSmart). That's why this is important to me. If I'm wrong about it, as you say, well, then I deserve to get my ass kicked and embarrassed in public. This isn't a discussion of what kind of damn oil to use, dyno or synthetic. It's a discussion about basic survival--and it matters deeply to me.

 

US riders, in particular, pay scant attention to developing their riding skills. The rest of the developed world puts us to shame. Ask the normal guy on the street in the UK about some particular riding theory/skill, and he'll explain it to you while he counts down each point on his fingers. Ask the same typical rider in the US, and he'll stare at you with a blank look.

 

I don't feel haughty about this--just passionate. And I'm one of the few people who has gotten off his ass and tried to help people ride better and live longer. Frankly, I'm a lifelong student myself and I have a lot to learn, too.

 

We're way to cavalier about throwing stupid riding advice out on the internet, and as long as that keeps happening, I'm going to keep swimming upstream and being forthright in my opinions. I (and several others) did the same thing with linked brakes, and got thrashed about it all the time. We pointed out very specifically and in great detail why partial integration was so superior. Then lo and behold BMW changed them back on the next RT model--well, that's what I was calling for from the beginning. My point is that it's okay to be in the minority. Democracy is a flawed system of government. As long as I can be king, I prefer a monarchy.

[tallman]

David,

is the braking objective the same on the track and in the "real world"?

By this I mean is there a difference between braking on a track to set up entry/exit for a turn, and braking on the street where the rider is trying to avoid a collision?

It would seem that on the track, with controlled conditions, there are a number of factors that provide options not available on the street.

Failure on the track may lead to a lowside with little danger of another vehicle striking you, or a highside crash. The rider is wearing certain gear and the bike is prepped for the track. In this environment, the consequences can be serious, but rarely life threatening.

On the street, the topic seems to center on maximum braking to achieve the best stopping distance while avoiding a collision.

Aren't these two different skills?

Related, but different.

[David]

Tim, in both conditions you are aiming for maximum braking. There's no difference there.

 

On the street it's to stop before you hit something. On the track it's to slow from, say, 165 mph to 35 mph. I don't think there's any substantive difference there, though, because what happens at the outset of braking is a lot more important than what happens at the end of the sequence.

 

The consequences on the track are serious. A high side is a very violent event. There are riders behind you going very fast. There is never more than 22.5 feet of pavement on either side of you. On the street, you could also be hit, but from both directions. There are more stationery objects to hit, but there may be more room to maneuver, unless you are on a narrow two-lane road.

 

All this to say that I don't see any benefit in trying to make fine distinctions between street and track in this case. For other techniques, I see the value of making the distinction.

 

On the street, the topic seems to center on maximum braking to achieve the best stopping distance while avoiding a collision.

 

That's exactly what you are doing in both cases. My personal belief (as seems to be yours) is that riding on the street is more dangerous than riding on the track. Fewer accidents, but more severe and with greater potential for injury. Given that, wouldn't it be even MORE important to learn HOW to achieve maximum braking on the street?

[tallman]

I see your point.

Here's my next mod. Better than dual disks.

[Ken H.]

When "oh $hit" crosses your mind, no one, not you nor Russell, is going to fall back on training and modulation. If you think you are, you are kidding yourselves.

 

Damn, I hate these discussions and get pissed at myself every time I get drawn into one of them.

 

First off, Jake, you couldn't be more wrong. When "Oh Shit" crosses your mind, you will do exactly what you have been trained to do.

+1

 

On this point I have to agree with Ed (And Russell). I think the earlier flying analogy is a good one...

 

Short flying lesson - Pull the yoke or stick back - airplane goes up, push it forward - airplane goes down. BUT if the wings "stall" (quits providing lift) the airplane goes down. Our survival instinct from the basics therefore would be to pull the yoke/stick back right? Try to make the airplane go up. Doing so is WRONG. It is exactly the wrong thing to do and absent anything else will lead to death. In this analogy "pull the yoke/stick back" = "grab a handful" .

 

Rather, flight instructors train pilots over and over (about a 1000 times actually) that the correct response in a stall is push the yoke/stick forward. Analogous to "properly modulate your braking" on a bike. In flying you do indeed successfully retrain you brain that in this particular emergency scenario the proper reaction becomes the NON-instinctive one. I can guarantee you that every pilot on the planet worthy to be at the controls of an airplane, when encountering a stall, their instinctive reaction will now be = push the yoke/stick forward. When every survival instinct bone in his/her body would have at sometime in the past told them to do the opposite.

 

Riding, or any other high risk activity for that matter, is no different. You CAN with proper training and repetitive and recent practice re-train your survival instinct to do the more appropriate thing. In the discussion at hand - train yourself to not, "grab a handful." (I'm using "grab a handful" in the sense of squeeze/push as hard as you possibly can with no attempt to modulate/vary your application of the braking controls at all.)

[smiller]

You are making things too complicated. To go up in an airplane pull back on the yoke. To go down, pull way back.

[David]

[Whip]

m---phase3

 

I don't think you "need" ABS.

 

I personally don't like it.

 

In the last few years(100,000 miles) the ABS on my bikes has engaged twice. Both times it almost killed me.

 

Being more aware and riding safer is much more important than ABS.

 

But I think the real problem I have with ABS is that I don't want some guys in a cublicle somewhere to design a system that decides how fast I can stop and then farm it out to the lowest bidder to get implemented. It's bad enough the rest of the bike is made that way. I want to control my own life and am willing to except the responsibility for it and my pillion. The only thing that would be worse would be for me to depend on it and then it not perform the way I expected.

 

Whip

[Jake]

Let's take a fresh look at what's being discussed. All of us are advocating the need for proper braking technique through dilligent training. Bikes can stop faster by staying at the max braking limit and not engaging the ABS, but it sure is a narrow window that must be reached to obtain this performance. You can get there with some frequency through proper training, but you must have the skills and the determination to attain this performance (like you do, and Ed does, and Russell, and my good friend David). The tests and data show that most riders cannot or don't do this (ABS vs non ABS), and the data shows that almost no one can do this in the rain. The message should remain: Do not rely on ABS. Kumbaya.

 

I feel the airplane situation is not at all analagous to the situation of a left-hand-turner which is a common motorcycle fatality scenario. They are distinctly different due to the factor of time to recover. We lost a good friend earlier this year, a friend who was a skilled motorcycle rider, who trained more than most of you realize, was more cautious than most of you realize, and advocated safety more than most of you realize. Our friend left an over 40 foot skid mark on the pavement and was not speeding by all accounts. This is the scenario that training can't quite duplicate because your wits will be taken from you. Your options evaporate in a moment of time. I'm not going to say that ABS would have provided a different outcome, but damn that skid mark.

 

I'm advocating that in a certain life threatening scenario, the brain will override your training, or your training simply won't work. You will be overcome by the nightmarish scenario developing in front of you, and most riders are very likely to grab a handful. For those times - my definition of an "Oh Shit" scenario, I hope they bought a bike with ABS.

[Ken H.]

your training simply won't work.

But Jake, sir, to say that is to say we could never train to do anything that goes against our survival instinct. The very act of hurdling down the road on a two-wheeled machine at 70 MPH would not be possible. Doing so is having overcome the survival instinct that kept you from doing it before you learned how to react properly at 70 MPH. Training of instictive reactions in an emergency situation is just a further extension of that.

 

I can fly a Piper Arrow, but I damn sure can't fly a F16. My survival instinct would take over and I'd make all the wrong moves. Until I was trained to do the right things that is.

 

OK, fly analogies aren't working here. How about; in a formula race car my survival instinct would take over about turn one I suspect and I'd be, "ohmygawdImgoingtodie" frozen toast. Until of course my survival instincts had been relearned through training at to what was the proper reaction as I enter turn one at 180 MPH.

[russell_bynum]

Give it up, Ken.

 

You can train to remove or reduce your (incorrect) survival reactions in basically every other pursuit from scuba diving to flying. You can even train to overcome survival reactions on a bike (like not chopping the throttle when the rear slides). But once you touch the brake lever on a motorcycle, the rules governing the universe change and you can no longer influence your reactions with training.

 

 

[Jake]

OK, you guys are piling on! Superman always ducked when the bad guy threw the gun at him. I rest my case.

[big-t]

I'm advocating that in a certain life threatening scenario, the brain will override your training, or your training simply won't work. You will be overcome by the nightmarish scenario developing in front of you, and most riders are very likely to grab a handful. For those times - my definition of an "Oh Shit" scenario, I hope they bought a bike with ABS.

 

 

Having BTDT,thats exactly how it happens

 

First instinct was for maximun braking and to rely on my experience and training to not overbrake because there was sand and gravel on the road ahead.At some point in time when I realized there was absolutely no way on Gods green earth I was going to stop before hitting the guardrail....everything shifted to slow motion and one of the things I remember was hearing the ABS in the background going ching-ching-ching,keeping me in control.Somewhere in that process I went full lock on the brakes.....

[Firefight911]

Man, I spend a whole day away form the board and look what I missed!!!

 

I'll keep the whole thing simple and state that I am with Russel and David.

 

You CAN train to change your control operations. Do you think that I just showed up one day and decided to run into a burning building??? (We'll try firefighting since flying doesn't seem to work!!!!) No, I TRAINED my instincts and reactions until such time as I was able to operate at maximum efficiency in as many situations as possible.

 

Braking is the same. You CAN train yourself to utilize the brakes properly. It is just not reasonable to state you can't change this "grab a handful" reaction to some situation.

 

This reminds of a great saying that I apply in MANY situations, "The trained respond, the untrained react."

 

A reaction is an involuntary response to an outside stimulus based on a lack of knowledge to draw another response.

 

A response is a TRAINED action to an outside stimulus based on knowledge gained through training.

 

A reaction is almost always going to result in an uncontrolled, "grabbing a handful", whereas a response is going to be controlled.

 

One other thing I want to put out there, and it will probably be semantics but WTH, ABS does not modulate your brake pressure. It takes the brake pressure you have applied through your hand and brake lever and, when a speed sensor determines wheel lock up, it removes brake pressure and then reapplies it, and repeats until no wheel lock-up is sensed.

 

That being said, let's throw out something. What do you think your ABS system is going to do when you lock up BOTH your front and rear wheel due to your "grabbing a handful" along with a foot full?

 

Here's your answer; your going to be on the ground wondering what happened. ABS will not function as it is not "sensing" any skid.

 

Again, there is NO substitute for responsive, active training, and proper braking to prepare you for a given situation.

[russell_bynum]

That being said, let's throw out something. What do you think your ABS system is going to do when you lock up BOTH your front and rear wheel due to your "grabbing a handful" along with a foot full?

 

Here's your answer; your going to be on the ground wondering what happened. ABS will not function as it is not "sensing" any skid.

 

That doesn't match my understanding of how the system works. (I could, of course, be wrong.)

 

My understanding is it is looking at individual wheel speed looking for the rapid acceleration (deceleration is just negative acceleration) that indicates a slide. I think I recall this being called the "Jerk factor" or something like that. (Or maybe we were talking about Wurty around the campfire...who knows?)

 

In your scenario, it would sense the front wheel accelerating outside of the acceptible envelope and start working it's magic with the front brakes, and it would see the same with the rear wheel, and start working the rear brake.

 

That's my understanding anyway.

 

I definitely tested the "grab a handful and footfull" scenario in the parking lot and both ends went into ABS mode.

 

That does bring up an interesting point. With my R1100RT (and Lisa's RS) it is possible to get enough front brake pressure to get the rear wheel unweighted enough that it will start sliding side to side. I never did an actual stoppie, but I frequently would come up to turns hard on the brakes with the rear end sliding around. Countersteering pressure would cause the rear to slide out to one side or the other. The Rear ABS was cycling the whole time. If had continued to apply countersteering pressure, it would have eventually come out from under me and crashed.

[Lawman]

Do you think that I just showed up one day and decided to run into a burning building??? (We'll try firefighting since flying doesn't seem to work!!!!) No, I TRAINED my instincts and reactions until such time as I was able to operate at maximum efficiency in as many situations as possible.

 

Hey Phil,

Since you brought it up that's something else I'ver never understood..Why do firemen run into burning buildings when they have no reason to believe there is anyone inside?

[T__]

Phil, I think you have a misunderstanding of the ABS brake system..

 

 

 

One other thing I want to put out there, and it will probably be semantics but WTH, ABS does not modulate your brake pressure. It takes the brake pressure you have applied through your hand and brake lever and, when a speed sensor determines wheel lock up, it removes brake pressure and then reapplies it, and repeats until no wheel lock-up is sensed.

 

If that isn’t modulating I don’t know what is.. To modulate is to regulate..

 

3. modulate - fix or adjust the time, amount, degree, or rate of; "regulate the temperature"; "modulate the pitch" regulate

 

 

 

hat being said, let's throw out something. What do you think your ABS system is going to do when you lock up BOTH your front and rear wheel due to your "grabbing a handful" along with a foot full?

 

Here's your answer; your going to be on the ground wondering what happened. ABS will not function as it is not "sensing" any skid.

 

 

Sorry Phil ABS doesn’t operate that way.. ABS brakes, at least motorcycle wise monitors & controls each wheel individually. There are some instances it will look at the other wheel spin rate but that is more of a learning thing to help attenuate the adaptive learn to compensate for rear wheel lift.. ABS function is not just a simple look for wheel lock up then release then reapply.. It is based on a very complex fuzzy logic algorithm that looks at initial wheel speed then tracks it’s deceleration rate & when it sees the decel rate is falling below a complex predetermined rate curve it starts the release process.. If it waited until full lock up the release wouldn’t be quick enough to prevent lock up.. When the wheel starts spinning again it allows brake pressure to return to that wheel.. The process is very fast (at least twice as fast as any human could do it & adapts to keep the wheel decel rate at a point just under lock up.. There is more to it than the above but that is the simple explanation..

 

Twisty

[Firefight911]

Hey Phil,

Since you brought it up that's something else I'ver never understood..Why do firemen run into burning buildings when they have no reason to believe there is anyone inside?

 

Culture! And one that many of us are working feverishly to change.

 

Risk a lot to save a lot,

Risk little to save little,

Risk nothing to save nothing.

 

There are variables to whether or not we go in to a structure on fire so understand that I will go in to put out a bathroom fire when I know everyone is out. I won't put out the whole second floor and attic if everyone is out. I also won't go in if the life survability profile is one where it is merely a body recovery either.

 

As for the ABS question, if I am inaccurate regarding the action of ABS in teh advent of a 2 wheel lock-up, I stand corrected and openly acknowledge my error if I am in fact in error.

 

All other statements concerning ABS stand. Go practice and don't rely on it to stop you, keep you in control, etc. Those are, and always will be, your responsibility.

[Ken H.]

Having BTDT,thats exactly how it happens

Well one thing is for certain, if you believe that is how it inevitably will happen; it indeed probably is.

 

But yes Russell, I give up. Those that believe they can't change - won't.

[beemer_me_up]

I've been riding with ABS sence 1996. Twice it saved me from dumping the bike. Yes I was at fault one of the two times but I'm here to write about it.

 

Have you ever seen the LAPD bike demo's, or BMW's demo comparing an ABS bike to a non-ABS bike with outriggers on them to keep the bike from crashing. Pretty much says it all to me. Jus my 2 cents worth.

[bakerzdosen]

But yes Russell, I give up. Those that believe they can't change - won't.

And for those of us who are still fence-sitters?

 

FWIW, I used to have a natural instinct to put my foot down if I felt any sort of slippage in the bike. Luckily, I don't do that any more. I personally think you CAN teach an old dog new tricks, but after following this debate, I'm not sure what the answer really is. That would really suck if I had to go out and figure something out on my own...

[SageRider]

This whole thread makes me wonder how I ever survived pre-ABS.

Learning threshold braking was mandatory to survival for me in Southern California during the 80s. In multiple 100K miles, never went down due to braking errors. Had plenty of opportunities....

ABS, when designed properly (my 1200 is MUCH better than my 1100 was), is a useful backup to incrementally improve safety, but it is there for only if I screw up. So far, in 26K miles on my 1200, the only time I have triggered it is while practicing to learn it's responses.