ABS - How Important?

[minatophase3]

I sold my 1100RT about 3 years ago to help start a small photography company. It was my first BMW and my first bike with ABS. I loved everything about the BMW (except the amount of maintenance), and I loved the BMW riders and the sense of community that is involved with riding a BMW, truly a bunch of great people!

 

Now I am really starting to miss riding, it is bad every spring/summer, but this year in particular has been even tougher. I can't afford a new bike right now and am looking at some used BMW's and other makes. But since I have had ABS I really want another bike with ABS.

 

I just read a discussion on this board about ABS and how many riders thought it wasn't overly important and was basically an excuse for poor braking habits. Up until I read that discussion I was completely set on getting another ABS bike, now I am having some differnt thoughts. I remembered back to my time on the RT, I spent approximately 2 years with the bike and about 25,000 miles, about 1/2 of those in the rain. The only time the ABS kicked in was when I was on a dirt road and wasn't thinking and hit the front brakes harder than I should have. I was only going about 10 miles per hour then, would I have crashed, probably not as I was completely upright.

 

So, I guess what I have determined is that ABS allows me personally to feel comfortable grabbing a hand full of brakes on wet pavement, knowing that if I make a mistake I will have something to correct me without paying a higher price. But since I never had the ABS kick in on the RT while on the road, does that mean that I am braking properly? I know nobody can answer that question but me. I am just trying to decide how important ABS is to me.

 

Any thought would be greatly appreciated. If money were not an issue I know for 100% certainty I would have it, but that isn't the case here.

 

Also, I haven't posted for a while so I thought I would and say "hi" to everyone.

 

Tim

 

PS - Anyone want to sell me a low mileage RT or GS with ABS at a fantastic price?

[BamaRider]

ABS is a crutch for guys that don't know how to brake properly??

 

IMHO, ABS is essential on a sport touring bike, that is going to be ridden cross country and subject to all kinds of weather and traffic patterns. In my eye a non abs is deal breaker.

[motoguy128]

I think it's like most safety equipment... not absolutely nessesary, but when you need it in an emergency, are you willing to rely on you skills to provide maximum stopping power?

 

I've ridden a sportbike on a racetrack and hauled the bike down repeatedly from 130+mph with the rear wheel hovering off the ground. I've done the same in the rain from 110mph with the rear end dancing around as it hydroplaned acorss puddles. I'm very confident of my braking skills, but my BMW doesn't have the same front end feel or weight advantage of a 600cc sportbike. With a passenger and lugggage, I like knowing I have an electronic co-pilot backing me up.

 

COnverserly, my car doesn't have ABS, but it also has an excellent safety rating with airbags everywhere. My motorcycle has no other safety measures.

 

I also appreciate the linked braking. Lets be honest, you shoe wiht a boot on it has very little dexterity, and the rear end of a bike has a limited amount of feel. I've always felt like rear braking was mostly guesswork.

[Firefight911]

So, I guess what I have determined is that ABS allows me personally to feel comfortable grabbing a hand full of brakes on wet pavement, knowing that if I make a mistake I will have something to correct me without paying a higher price. But since I never had the ABS kick in on the RT while on the road, does that mean that I am braking properly? I know nobody can answer that question but me. I am just trying to decide how important ABS is to me.

 

I was a pretty adamant poster regarding ABS as a crutch for those who don't practice and practice and practice their braking. I still stand by my statements in that post, BUT, your above statement answers your own question.

 

If having ABS makes you more comfortable which, in turn, will allow you to ride more competently by way of allowing you to concentrate on teh task at hand, then get one with it.

 

ABS has merits and valid points about it. My frustration comes out of the wholesale statement that it allows shorter brake distances, it does not when compared to a practiced rider, and allows the user to "just grab a handful" of brake and not worry.

 

Do not rely on technology, rely on sound practice and skill acquired through active and focused practice.

 

Regardless whether you get a Non-ABS or ABS bike, get out there and PRACTICE.

[Stan Walker]

IMHO, ABS is essential on a sport touring bike, that is going to be ridden cross country and subject to all kinds of weather and traffic patterns. In my eye a non abs is deal breaker.

 

+1 on that!

 

After 8-10 hours on the road, faced with a unexpected need to brake (think Banbi, for example) at the threshold limit on a strange road in all types of weather, I won't guarantee that I'm going to get it right the first time. I like knowing that ABS is there for those cases where I don't.

 

Do I depend on it? No, in the last 120,000 plus miles I can only think of one time it actually was invoked. That involved an unlit country road on a dark night, hard braking to avoid a car that slammed on it's brakes, and an unseen patch of pea gravel from a dirt side road in the middle of the braking. Would Jan and I have went down without ABS? Or ran into the car? Who knows! I'd like to think not, I've been riding bikes almost forever, but I could be wrong. Instead, I'm still here, and Jan too.

 

Stan

[T__]

As a group there is probably no better road/street everyday riders than motor officers.. They go through a vigorous training & must be very proficient to even become a motor officer.. Not to mention they spend hours upon hours in the saddle every day rain or shine.. Then why do so many police departments require ABS brakes or buy the ABS equipped motorcycles? Even Harley is putting ABS on the police versions of their motorcycles.. If ABS was such a limitation & a crutch why in the world would the cops not require a non ABS bike..

 

Twisty

[Geoff2]

That question is solely dependant on how good a rider you are. ABS, as has been said soooooo many times will not make you stop any quicker, in fact your breaking distance compared with non ABS will be longer. What ABS will do is keep you in control of the bike. Now the question, how good a rider you are, if bambi jumps out in front or another vehicle, if you just grab all the brake you can, ABS will make no difference, however if you grab all the brake and try to steer round bambi then ABS is essential. So it is down to how good you are NOT how good you think you are. My R1100RT was ABS and I never used it as far as I know, and I think you would know when ABS kicked in, my last bike, a GS was non ABS and I didn't miss it. My current bike, linked ABS with servo is sh** hot, but again I have not used ABS yet, only done 500miles on it. Just my 2p

[tallman]

Phil,

While I appreciate your POV, and recognize that you, and many posters here practice, practice, practice, braking procedures....

I submit that in all of those case you knew when you were braking and it was not to stop or avoid a moving object that you had no control over.

Also, longer stopping distances may occur w/ABS, when the ABS system activates. .

But, if you are cpable of taking non ABS brakes to the threshold of locking up and not doing so, then you can do the same w/ABS brakes, and therefore should have the same braking distances.

I have seen numerous situations where professional riders, LEO's, who practice much more than any other riders I know, being in situations in the real world that the only response possible was to try and stop short of the immovable object.

I know of at least 4 where the officer either survived, or avoided serious injury because the road conditions mandated ABS brakes to achieve greatest possible stopping for the conditions.

I'm sure that for a rider who is accomplished enough to always bring the bike to a safe stop, under all road and weather conditions, ABS is not a priority,

I submit that even for this rider, there may be a time that ABS would improve the outcome of using brakes.

I know of no circumstance, and would ask those that do to post and verify from personal experience, of a real world situation where ABS brakes led to the death or injury of a rider. I know of many, including personal experience, where it an ABS system has prevented, or greatly reduced the negative outcome.

Again, I respectfully submit that the choice may be a personal one, but it may be as dangerous on both sides of the discusssion, in the real world.

Those who blithely rely on ABS and exceed safe riding for the conditions and those who believe that in all circumstances they can control the bike well enough to achieve better results than if they had ABS brakes in that situation.

Shawn's original post wasn't that ABS isn't a good thing.

His post was about not practicing w/non ABS brake systems.

Another way to look at his post would be to espouse the benefit of ABS because it would have prevented the situation from happening.

If someone who rides as much and as well as he does can have such an experience, what about a part-time rider?

Best wishes.

[T__]

Seeing as we are in a BMW based site here might as well include some BMW test data taken in controlled testing..

 

Click on link then scroll down to wet & dry road stopping distances..

 

 

 

 

ABS vs Non ABS test data_Click Here

 

Twisty

[Lawman]

ABS is a crutch for guys that don't know how to brake properly??

 

IMHO, ABS is essential on a sport touring bike, that is going to be ridden cross country and subject to all kinds of weather and traffic patterns. In my eye a non abs is deal breaker.

 

+2

[Ken H.]

I've written a bit in the other threads too in favor of ABS, so I won't repeat it all here, but here's my summary on it:

 

If the ABS on my bike engages, to me that means I messed up something. I miss-judged the available traction at the moment, miss-read the situation, despite all my braking practicing my skills weren't 100% at that moment, or something else. I have failed at some aspect of riding a motorcycle optimally. But at that movement I'll be damn glad ABS is on my bike. I can (and will) kick myself a bunch later for having miss-handled the situation, but at least I'll be a bit more likely to be around to do so.

[MikeH]

I just read a discussion on this board about ABS and how many riders thought it wasn't overly important and was basically an excuse for poor braking habits.

I think that statement refers to the later EVO servo ABS system with linked brakes. My friend has that system on his R1150RS and reckons that it makes him lazy as he's only using the front brake lever and relying on the electronics to do the work.

 

My last bike R1100RS had the same ABS-2 system as your RT nd I just used the brakes as I had been trained to do before ABS was ever thought of. And like you, I don't ever remember the ABS cutting in to save my skin. I did however try the ABS out when I first bought the RS and it really impressed in stopping without drama in wet slippy conditions.

 

I've just replaced the RS with a non-ABS '06 R1200ST, which I opted for out of choice. The reason being that I've got no faith in the reliability of the servo assisted ABS system fitted to bikes before 2007. It would have been nice to have ABS as a back-up, but not with those dreaded servos. NO THANKS!

 

I'll just have to spend some time honing my braking skills - the same ones that I've been using for the past 40 years.

[wellcraft]

i look at ABS as an important safety feature that can help keep you out of an accident. you won't appreciate ABS until you find yourself in a situation where ABS saves your behind from crashing. better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it.

[StevenM]

I haven't heard much about reliability issues with the servos. Did I miss something?

[minatophase3]

Thanks to everyone for the responses. After giving it more thought and hearing the responses as well, I think I would really appreciate having another ABS bike.

 

And up until recently I never thought about the ABS activating as meaning the rider had mis-judged the available traction for braking. I had really thought that with ABS you were always much safer because you can't lock up the brakes. The recent discussions here have helped me understand that ABS is more like your airbag in your car, you goal should be to never use it, but when it deploys you are probably glad it did.

 

Lots to think about and I know when I do get another bike I will practice braking a bit more than I did in the past, even with ABS.

 

Thanks again to everyone.

 

Tim

[MadDuck]

My personal feelings are that the value of ABS is entirely related to your individual riding style. Those that ride every day or with firm schedules find themselves riding in adverse motorcycle conditions often, for them ABS relieves a lot of the worry associated with that kind of riding. Those of us in the "fair weather" mainly camp don't really need it and don't like the added complexity. If you can figure your percentage of miles traveled when tired, wet and uncomfortable and it exceeds about 10% ABS is probably a good idea. Sunny and clear and two lane touring, you probablly don't need any more brakes than a sailboat.

 

I don't think I would buy a motorcycle over 4 years old with ABS as the degree of maintenance required for a system 2 generations old will get very problematic. Good on new but be careful of "old technology". BMW seems to change the heck out of its system every 2-3 years. How those older systems will be maintained is going to be an issue.

[Rich06FJR1300]

i had the same feelings about ABS as well. Until mine crapped out and found out its 2 grand to replace the unit. So if you're going to by a beemer...either buy a pre-servo bike or a 2007...i can't find anyone who refurbishes the servo motors so the dealers just replace them. I did find one on ebay though which saved me a significant chunk of change. It really doesn't matter if they're reliable or not, it just takes one time to change your mind real quick.

[upflying]

ABS quietly lurks unnoticed in the background. It does not interfere with your professional and experienced braking habits..until you grab a handful in a panic.

[Stan Walker]

until you grab a handful in a panic.

 

or....

 

You are braking right at threshold and the road surface changes. This could be unseen gravel, painted lines, tar snakes, leaves, ice patch, etc. For those who ride at night, or in the rain / snow, ABS isn't a crutch to use every time you brake, but a safty net to save our skin when the poo hits the fan.

 

Stan

[russell_bynum]

I just read a discussion on this board about ABS and how many riders thought it wasn't overly important and was basically an excuse for poor braking habits.

 

My feeling:

 

ABS is often used as an excuse for poor technique. i.e. "I have ABS, so I don't need to go practice braking." or the equally idotic "I'm not a professional racer, so I don't have the skills to brake well."

 

ABS is a crutch. Crutches can be good...they keep you from falling down. But they can also get in your way. And the absolute worst thing you can do is just roll along fat dumb and happy because some salesman told you you have ABS so you don't have to worry about "grabbing a handful."

 

Over-reliance on a technology that you do not understand will result in problems.

 

Does that mean I don't like ABS? No! If it is implemented well, I like it. I pretend I don't have it, and I go practice stopping like my life depended on it (which it does). It doesn't take much practice to get reasonably proficient at using the brakes. And it doesn't take much practice to stay reasonably proficient. You just have to decide to get off your ass and go do it.

 

If your training fails you and you're in one of the limited situations where ABS can help you, then be glad you've got it. But until that moment, you should act as if you do not have it...and that means getting off your ass, going to a parking lot, and spending a Saturday morning learning how to use the brakes.

[USAF1]

So........are you going to have a "welcome home" party when the time comes??

 

Pat

 

PS......about danged time!!

[minatophase3]

So........are you going to have a "welcome home" party when the time comes??

 

Pat

 

PS......about danged time!!

 

"IF" the time comes, yes I will have a welcome home party and will even do a beef brisket on the Traeger for the first 25 people that RSVP!

 

Still need to work out finances and such, might be one more riding season before I'm back. Let me know if you ever have an urge to drive the Civic, I'd be happy to take your LT off your hands for a while.

 

Tim

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I don't think I would buy a motorcycle over 4 years old with ABS as the degree of maintenance required for a system 2 generations old will get very problematic. Good on new but be careful of "old technology". BMW seems to change the heck out of its system every 2-3 years. How those older systems will be maintained is going to be an issue.

 

 

My RT is 8 years old now. I replaced a bad wheel speed sensor four years ago, but other than that, it's been trouble-free.

[smiller]

How those older systems will be maintained is going to be an issue.

My ABS system is over ten years old with 90k miles. I'll let you know about maintenance issues... as soon as I experience one. I've only really noticed the ABS one time when it saved me from a serious accident (too bad that I didn't do enough parking lot braking training to allow me to see a nearly invisible oil slick in the road... )

[leikam]

For me, ABS is largely a non-issue.

 

I have bought and would consider bikes that don't have ABS so it's not a deal-breaker. Having ABS isn't really a compelling reason to buy a particular model so it's also not a deal-maker.

 

ABS has neither saved me from an accident nor contributed to one. The bonus of peace-of-mind roughly balances out the downside of complexity.

 

The more interesting question is whether I would pay more for a bike where ABS is offered as an option. And for that I don't have an answer. I think a lot would depend on the implementation, the price and my purpose for the bike.

[UberXY]

I've had it 8 years, starting with a 99 R1100SA, and now on my RT. Never caused a maintenance problem, never saved my life, but I like to know it's there in the rain. I suspect it can out brake me as I am not Kenny Roberts nor do I practice braking in parking lots.

[Jim VonBaden]

I've written a bit in the other threads too in favor of ABS, so I won't repeat it all here, but here's my summary on it:

 

If the ABS on my bike engages, to me that means I messed up something. I miss-judged the available traction at the moment, miss-read the situation, despite all my braking practicing my skills weren't 100% at that moment, or something else. I have failed at some aspect of riding a motorcycle optimally. But at that movement I'll be damn glad ABS is on my bike. I can (and will) kick myself a bunch later for having miss-handled the situation, but at least I'll be a bit more likely to be around to do so.

 

And that sums it up necely right there!

 

Jim

[CoarsegoldKid]

Well there are guys who like technology and those that pick and chose. I don't buy the argument that ABS is for "so so riders". I never had it(42 years riding) until this RT. It works fine and I don't think about it. I had the opportunity to ask Fresno City motor officers about it and they loved it. "Grab a handful in the wet and all will be okay.", they said. If it's good enough for them I can live peacefully with it.

I have done some practice stops to determine how it works. Grabbing a handful on some surfaces it engages, st...st..stops and on other surfaces it flat jerks the bike to a stop the bike with the rear tire off the ground at about 25mph. I was amazed and so were many other riders practicing the same thing.

SO I think it's a good thing. You still have to pay attention.

[russell_bynum]

Well there are guys who like technology and those that pick and chose. I don't buy the argument that ABS is for "so so riders". I never had it(42 years riding) until this RT. It works fine and I don't think about it. I had the opportunity to ask Fresno City motor officers about it and they loved it. "Grab a handful in the wet and all will be okay.", they said. If it's good enough for them I can live peacefully with it.

I have done some practice stops to determine how it works. Grabbing a handful on some surfaces it engages, st...st..stops and on other surfaces it flat jerks the bike to a stop the bike with the rear tire off the ground at about 25mph. I was amazed and so were many other riders practicing the same thing.

SO I think it's a good thing. You still have to pay attention.

 

"Grabbing a handful" is dangerous, idiotic advice, ABS or otherwise.

[Firefight911]

"Grabbing a handful" is dangerous, idiotic advice, ABS or otherwise.

 

+1 to that!!!!

[Bob]

I ride well within my envelope and never like I have ABS, but I still prefer ABS. It has saved my bacon twice. Once on an unannounced newly oiled section of pavement (overcast and drizzle), and again discovering broken pavement before entering a shaded gravel-strewn corner – ABS kicked in like two fighting squirrels and got me slowed down – no way I am a good enough rider to deal with changing and sliding surfaces. Will I ever encounter those situations again? I doubt it. Will I ever encounter a situation where I need ABS again in my life? I don’t know, but I sincerely hope not. I am just grateful that ABS took over me or I would have gotten banged up from the oil and suffered serious injury in the corner. As the rider, I was in charge in both situations and obviously responsible for any goof-up or miscalculation I did not have to ultimately physically suffer. About a year ago, I seriously considered a non-ABS because of its cost differential and simplicity. I finally pulled the trigger on an ABS model. ABS was my personal choice and I paid the premium for something I may never use. No one can answer your ABS question but you. I personally view my ABS as part of simple risk management. Should my ABS ever have occasion to kick in again and save me from going down or getting hit, I retain responsiblity as the rider for anything missed or my miscalculation (I also acknowledge not being perfect), but its premium will be paid for. I guess that I am weird because I also will not purchase a car or truck without 4-wheel disc brakes, ABS, comprehensive air bag system, traction control, and an excellent safety rating. It all comes down to personal choice and what we each feel comfortable with. Succinctly stated, to each their own based on its intended use (paraphrasing Michael above).

[dzervit]

"Grabbing a handful" is dangerous, idiotic advice, ABS or otherwise.

Sometimes you gotta grab a handful. Plus, you have no idea how the officer meant it. I grab a handful frequently.**

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

** while your automatically thinking I'm a dolt rider that wails on his brakes in panic, I'm not even talking about motorcycling.

[russell_bynum]

Sometimes you gotta grab a handful.

 

If you insist on following that logic, please never ride behind me.

 

 

Plus, you have no idea how the officer meant it.

 

Right. I guess, in the middle of a discussion on ABS brakes, he might have drifted off and started talking about how he frequently grabs a handfull of popcorn while at the movies.

 

"grab a handful" (when talking about motorcycle braking technique) is stupid, idiotic, moronic, and dangerous advice. Even with the very best and most advanced ABS, that sort of stupidity will increase your stopping distance because it overwhelms the compression damping circuit in the front forks/shock. The result is the front end compresses so that the forks/shock is out of the middle 1/3 of the travel where it works best. Suspension not working up to par means you have less traction. Less traction means increased stopping distance. Note: BMW's Telelever front end reduces this a qood bit, but you can't break the laws of physics.

[Ken H.]

I haven't heard much about reliability issues with the servos. Did I miss something?

No you didn't miss anything. Like any mechanical issue on any Internet forum, you'll hear plenty from the 0.2% who do have a problem, and little if anything from the 99.8% of the owners of servo equipped bikes that never have an issue. Overall the servo system on BMW bikes has been reliable. More people complain about the feel of the system, but that's a personal preference thing.

[Lawman]

Can someone explain to me the difference between "grabbing a handful of brake" and "braking hard" because to practice my braking skills I need to know how to brake hard but I sure never want to grab a handful of brake..

[russell_bynum]

Can someone explain to me the difference between "grabbing a handful of brake" and "braking hard" because to practice my braking skills I need to know how to brake hard but I sure never want to grab a handful of brake..

 

"Grabbing a Handful" implies just grabbing onto the brake lever and squeezing for all you're worth. i.e. Getting as much braking force into the system as quickly as possible.

 

It would be easy to think that this is the right approach with ABS-equipped bikes since the ABS will kick in and modulate pressure for you. But there are many flaws in that logic.

 

First, even with ABS, if you overwhelm the compression damping circuit on the front suspension by applying too much force too abruptly, you will compress the front end out of the range where the shock (or the damping components in conventional forks) works best. The result is reduced traction and subsequently increased stopping distance.

 

Instead, you want to smoothly bring the brakes up to "full" pressure ("Full" meaning, whatever the maximum pressure traction allows.) The way I practice, is I take a full second to go from nothing to maximum. That's what seems to result in the best stopping distances in the drills that I've done.

 

Now...if you do just grab a handful, jam on the brakes, etc...and you are upright, ABS will take over and bail you out. And if you smoothly bring the brakes up to full pressure, but you misjudge what "full pressure" is, and you're upright, ABS will bail you out. That's where ABS is good. BUT...even though it has bailed you out, your stopping distance has increased from what it would have been if you hadn't made that error.

 

Other reasons why "grabbing a handful" is a bad idea: If you're leaned, ABS isn't going to help you, and your suspension isn't working 100% either. Abruptly applying too much braking force while leaned is a surefire way to end up taking a soil sample.

 

And also, if you ever ride a bike without ABS, or if your ABS fails and you have to ride your bike withtout it, you will need good braking habits.

 

So...there's absolutely ZERO reasons to practice or advocate "grabbing a handful", and every reason to practice good braking habits as if you didn't have ABS.

 

Good braking habits will serve you well in every situation (upright, leaned, ABS, no ABS, rain, dry, etc).

[Silver Surfer/AKAButters]

I've put 10K on my 02 RT since I bought it in February, and to my knowledge the ABS hasn't engaged yet, but I'm glad to know it's there for when I really screw up. It's gonna happen.

[russell_bynum]

I've put 10K on my 02 RT since I bought it in February, and to my knowledge the ABS hasn't engaged yet, but I'm glad to know it's there for when I really screw up. It's gonna happen.

 

My advice: Get to an empty parking lot some morning, and practice. See what happens when the ABS kicks in.

 

For all you know, it'll scare the hell out of you and cause you to release the brakes.

 

You're relying on a system that you haven't even tested. That's like grabbing any old parachute you see laying around, going up in a plane, and jumping out without ever testing to make sure there isn't actually an anvil in that pack instead of a parachute.

[russell_bynum]

I don't know if it's right, but I start with pressure from my little finger, then apply pressure from my 3rd, 2nd and finally my index finger. Like Russell, this takes about a half to full second. I do this each time I brake. I don't know where or when I started doing this.

 

Whatever works. That sounds like a pretty good way to do it.

[tallman]

Russell,

Although your reply is logical, it does seem to contradict the results from the link above.

Their data showed the "average" ABS stop was measurably better than the "best" non ABS stopping distance, under all road conditions.

Not trying to be provocative, but I think that's what it said.

Your thoughts?

[Geoff2]

Russell, am I being thick,no need to answere that too directly but, surely if more weight is pushed onto the front wheel as a result of braking, traction is increased not decreased, admitedly on the front with the lower traction on the back as the load shifts forward. Is that not the main reason for dual discs on the front and single on the rear

[T__]

Can someone explain to me the difference between "grabbing a handful of brake" and "braking hard" because to practice my braking skills I need to know how to brake hard but I sure never want to grab a handful of brake..

 

Billy, there really isn’t much difference.. If you grab a handful you are BRAKING HARD (very hard).. You can brake hard without grabbing a handful but that adds stopping distance.. The quicker you get to full (USABLE) brake pressure the shorter you will stop.. Problem is; how much is too much?

 

(basically when most people speak of grabbing a handful it means squeeze the brake lever as quick & hard as possible, no modulation & no progressive braking) __That’s basically what most riders do in an emergency situation when there is suddenly a large (unavoidable) object directly in front of them & closer than their perceived total braking distance..

 

You can brake hard for a corner, or brake hard for a close call, you can even brake hard to practice, but if someone turns left right in front of you & you don’t have the real-estate to avoid trust me when I say You-Will-Grab-A-Full-Handful ,, it will be right now & violent- if your are lucky you will stop short,, if you are somewhat lucky you will scrub off enough speed to not kill yourself.. The one place where ABS brakes makes your day is it allows you to grab a handful quickly,, allows you to get to max decel as quickly as possible,, hopefully keeps you upright if you over brake,, & if you do get the tire skidding can cycle the brakes about twice as fast as any human being can, it can also control each wheel individually from a single apply lever..

 

Having ABS brakes is a lot like having an air bag in an automobile.. A good driver shouldn’t need the air bags.. A good driver should NEVER place his/her vehicle in any situation that could lead to an accident therefore never needing the air bags.. If an oncoming vehicle suddenly crosses the centerline, a good driver should have known it was going to happen & made sure their vehicle wasn’t in the travel path.. Same with ABS brakes, a good rider ALWAYS knows when a car will abruptly turn left in front of them (NOT)..

 

Twisty

[Lawman]

Twisty,

Couldn't agree more.

[russell_bynum]

The quicker you get to full (USABLE) brake pressure the shorter you will stop

 

Wrong.

 

If you apply pressure faster than your font suspension's compression damping circuit can react, you will NOT stop shorter. You will either have to start modulating pressure sooner, or your ABS will kick in. In either case, you will take more distance to stop.

 

but if someone turns left right in front of you & you don’t have the real-estate to avoid trust me when I say You-Will-Grab-A-Full-Handful ,, it will be right now & violent

 

If you have not developed the proper response, you are correct.

 

If you have trained and built the correct reflexes, you are MUCH more likely to use them. And even if you do have a split second where you brake too abruptly, you are much more likely to have your training quickly take over.

 

I do not consider myself to be a particularly exceptional rider. But since I started making a concerted effort to practice braking, I have not had a SINGLE instance where I got into an "Oh sh*t I need to stop RIGHT NOW." situation and just "grabbed a handful". I've had several of those situations including one where I came around a blind corner at night on a non-ABS bike (K75) and found two cars side by side, with one squarely in the middle of my lane, both with their high beams on. I immediately fell back on my training (without thinking) and got on both brakes as I was making my way towards what I thought the outside edge of the road was (I was blinded by the oncomming lights, so I couldn't see it.)

 

I wound up sliding the rear a little, but modulated the front fairly well. I distinctly remember, in slow motion, the front starting the slip, then re-gripping as I modulated pressure.

 

That story shows how proper training can replace your normal survial reactions (i.e. "OH SH*T!!! GRAB THAT STOP LEVER AS HARD AS POSSIBLE RIGHT NOW!!!!") with more appropriate ones.

 

Virutally every complicated and dangerous sport has things like this where you train to remove your survival reactions. For example, in a stall in an airplane, your natural reaction is the yank the control yoke into your lap and firewall the throttle. Wrong reaction. Pilots train to do the opposite. There are countless examples of things like that where people successfully train to replace their natural reactions with proper ones. This is no different.

 

 

The one place where ABS brakes makes your day is it allows you to grab a handful quickly,, allows you to get to max decel as quickly as possible,, hopefully keeps you upright if you over brake,, & if you do get the tire skidding can cycle the brakes about twice as fast as any human being can,

 

You are technically correct, but that's potentially misleading. Yes, ABS will bail you out if you just jam on the brakes as hard as you can. (assuming you are upright) By "Bail you out", I mean it will take over and keep the wheels mostly turning. Your stopping distance will be less than if you didn't have ABS.

 

BUT...people seem to thing that "because I have ABS, I can just grab a handful."

 

That's dangerous thinking, for the reasons I outlined in my post above.

 

That's sorta like saying that it's OK to have a heart attack because you're in a location where there's a defib. machine. Yeah...the machine is there, and in some circumstances, it will save your butt. But don't count on it.

 

it can also control each wheel individually from a single apply lever..

 

That's not ABS, that's linking. Linking has nothing to do with ABS.

[smiller]

Virutally every complicated and dangerous sport has things like this where you train to remove your survival reactions.

Tell me about it... I just bought a dirt bike.

[russell_bynum]

Virutally every complicated and dangerous sport has things like this where you train to remove your survival reactions.

Tell me about it... I just bought a dirt bike.

 

[T__]

Russell,,

 

Quote:

 

 

The quicker you get to full (USABLE) brake pressure the shorter you will stop

 

 

 

 

Wrong.

 

If you apply pressure faster than your font suspension's compression damping circuit can react, you will NOT stop shorter. You will either have to start modulating pressure sooner, or your ABS will kick in. In either case, you will take more distance to stop.

 

Actually you are incorrect.. Are you trying to convince me that you can transfer weight to the front end faster than the compression dampening can react.. NO WAY.. If that happens to you, you better get your suspension looked at.. You hit a bump in the road & the compression dampening isn’t out traveled & that reaction is only over a foot or so of travel.. In any case the late BMW’s have a geometric anti dive designed in so they control arm angle actually is such that there is little dive & the harder you brake the more lift it puts in..

Quote:

 

 

but if someone turns left right in front of you & you don’t have the real-estate to avoid trust me when I say You-Will-Grab-A-Full-Handful ,, it will be right now & violent

 

 

 

If you have not developed the proper response, you are correct.

 

If you have trained and built the correct reflexes, you are MUCH more likely to use them. And even if you do have a split second where you brake too abruptly, you are much more likely to have your training quickly take over.

 

I do not consider myself to be a particularly exceptional rider. But since I started making a concerted effort to practice braking, I have not had a SINGLE instance where I got into an "Oh sh*t I need to stop RIGHT NOW." situation and just "grabbed a handful". I've had several of those situations including one where I came around a blind corner at night on a non-ABS bike (K75) and found two cars side by side, with one squarely in the middle of my lane, both with their high beams on. I immediately fell back on my training (without thinking) and got on both brakes as I was making my way towards what I thought the outside edge of the road was (I was blinded by the oncomming lights, so I couldn't see it.)

 

I wound up sliding the rear a little, but modulated the front fairly well. I distinctly remember, in slow motion, the front starting the slip, then re-gripping as I modulated pressure.

 

That story shows how proper training can replace your normal survial reactions (i.e. "OH SH*T!!! GRAB THAT STOP LEVER AS HARD AS POSSIBLE RIGHT NOW!!!!") with more appropriate ones.

 

That sounds like you had PLENTY of real estate & time to AVOID.. If you have the room most competent riders can avoid a situation even while braking.. Put yourself 50 feet closer & at the same speed & see if you can avoid while braking.. You were just lucky that you could see the danger in time to react & avoid.. Now that could be due to good riding skills, or luck, or not being able to see a clear exit..

 

Virutally every complicated and dangerous sport has things like this where you train to remove your survival reactions. For example, in a stall in an airplane, your natural reaction is the yank the control yoke into your lap and firewall the throttle. Wrong reaction. Pilots train to do the opposite. There are countless examples of things like that where people successfully train to replace their natural reactions with proper ones. This is no different..

 

I agree that proper training & practice is an absolute must for safe riding, or flying, or driving.. In a lot of cases survival depends on the subconscious & muscle memory.. But there are situations where you still need to stop in the required distance & if you give up precious stopping distance due slow pressure build or taper braking then that is means you just hit harder or won’t stop in time.. Most riders go most of their life without doing a max G braking event.. Good riders place themselves in a position of not needing a max G braking event.. It’s that once in a lifetime event that you need the max decel & you won’t get there by pussing around on that darn brake lever..

Quote:

 

 

The one place where ABS brakes makes your day is it allows you to grab a handful quickly,, allows you to get to max decel as quickly as possible,, hopefully keeps you upright if you over brake,, & if you do get the tire skidding can cycle the brakes about twice as fast as any human being can,

 

 

 

You are technically correct, but that's potentially misleading. Yes, ABS will bail you out if you just jam on the brakes as hard as you can. (assuming you are upright) By "Bail you out", I mean it will take over and keep the wheels mostly turning. Your stopping distance will be less than if you didn't have ABS.

 

BUT...people seem to thing that "because I have ABS, I can just grab a handful."

 

Actually if you have ABS you CAN GRAB A HANDFUL.. In an emergency you can & MOST riders WILL..

 

That's dangerous thinking, for the reasons I outlined in my post above..

What’s so dangerous in stopping as short as possible in an emergency.. Look at the motorcycle ABS vs. non ABS braking tests.. NO, not you in a parking lot fooling around but actual documented testing.. With few exceptions the ABS bike will out-brake a like non ABS bike.. & that is under testing conditions where the rider knows the road friction coefficient & is braking at a given command or marker.. I would be willing to bet in an emergency situation the ABS bike would out stop the non ABS bike by even more. That is shown in the brake pressure build on some of the testing data..

 

That's sorta like saying that it's OK to have a heart attack because you're in a location where there's a defib. machine. Yeah...the machine is there, and in some circumstances, it will save your butt. But don't count on it..

 

I fail to see the similarity between a heart attack & relying on your brakes to function in an emergency.. Of course the ABS system can fail,, but so can the base brake system,, or tires,, or you could even snap a brake lever off.. That’s life..

Quote:

 

 

it can also control each wheel individually from a single apply lever..

 

 

 

 

That's not ABS, that's linking. Linking has nothing to do with ABS.

 

 

Again I must disagree.. Linked brakes allow both brakes to operate from a single apply point but it takes an ABS system to allow individual control with an apply from that single point..

 

 

Twisty

[BamaRider]

[David]

Sorry, but you're wrong in your understanding of suspension and braking. For just one example (and I'm not going to get mired in this nonsense), compression damping is the issue here, and you typically set compression damping last, looking for about 1 second of travel time. You can easily lock a front wheel (invoking ABS) in significantly less time. Adding front brakes firmly but gradually allows the suspension to remain in its middle third, where it is most likely to follow the road surface. The BMW suspension setup makes very little difference. It masks dive--but not weight transfer. And by "locking" the front too quickly, you lose the impact of rear braking.

[Silver Surfer/AKAButters]

I've put 10K on my 02 RT since I bought it in February, and to my knowledge the ABS hasn't engaged yet, but I'm glad to know it's there for when I really screw up. It's gonna happen.

 

For all you know, it'll scare the hell out of you and cause you to release the brakes.

 

 

The scary part will be something coming up on me that quick with an unstable road surface below. Not likely I'll relalease the brake due to ABS pulsing in that situation.

Sounds a little like airbag testing to me.

Just kidding.

 

Just so you know, I do practice emergency braking regularly in a parking lot, and have obtained very satisfactory results without locking up the fron wheel thereby precluding the need for the ABS assist. However, after reading the article and seeing the superior stopping distance offered by ABS, particularly at higher speeds, I will give it a go the next time I'm conducting my parking lot drills. It appears my many years of experience have programmed me to brake in a way that keeps me from locking up the front wheel. This method clearly will not provide the full benefit of ABS in an emergency.

 

Best,