HOV problem in AZ

[KMG_365]

How cute. You're such a trusting little soul.

 

Yes. My life as a starry-eyed optimist does set me up for disappointment from time to time.

[RonStewart]

SgtYork2690 made his first ever post in this forum in this thread. I shot a snippy remark at him instead of welcoming him to the board. I did not care for his post, but that is no excuse for me being rude.

 

So, Sgt York, most decorated American soldier of WWI, welcome aboard.

 

Where are you from, what do you do, and what do you ride?

[JohnTena]

He also mentioned that his Lieutenant called the DPS legislative representative to address getting it fixed in the state statutes.

 

Doug

 

Does "fixed" mean that the legislature will make it clearly legal? Or clearly illegal?

[smiller]

Does "fixed" mean that the legislature will make it clearly legal? Or clearly illegal?

They don't have the option of making it illegal unless thay can effectively demonstrate that allowing motorcycles in the HOV lane would be dangerous or unsafe, and so far no one has succeeded in making such a claim.

[Draftermike]

As has been stated earlier, this thread and what it accomplished really rocks ..... but that HOV lane motorcycle tour would have been great fun

[Deadboy]

So glad Nick could show them the error of their ways

 

BUT

 

What about all the other riders that may have been sited under this bogus offence and were forced by Gilbert law inforcement to pay the fine.

 

I'm sure Doug was not the first. I can only hope he will be the last.

 

What I would like to see happen is a investigation into past citations issued in Gilbert to motorcyclists leagally using HOV yet being issued tickets.

 

Maybe a little more work could be done?

 

Could AMA possibly dig deeper?

 

Let me talk w/my boss first, I am not so sure they will willingly give me that info, nor do I know if I can force them to....we may have to do some sort of outreach to find riders who were ticketed, and (not being a lawyer myself) I am not sure what happens in cases where the rider may have already paid the ticket (basically pleading guilty by default).

[Effervescent]

Go us!

-Eff

[Bakaboy]

FYI, I sent an email to the Gilbert PD and already got a return phone call indicating they will be dismissing the ticket based on the federal code allowing MC's to use the carpool lane discussed already in this thread.

 

I expect Doug should be hearing from them soon if he hasn't already.

 

I sent Doug a PM also....

 

 

I wish we had AMA here.

 

Which vehicles are NOT allowed to use HOV lanes?

A vehicle with only the driver

Motorcycles with only the driver

Commercial trucks greater than 6.5 metres in length or with a gross weight of more than 4,500 kg

Taxis or limousines without a fare

 

 

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/traveller/hov/

 

David

[RonStewart]

Which vehicles are NOT allowed to use HOV lanes?

....

Taxis or limousines without a fare

Wish we had that rule here. I hate sitting in my cage in traffic while a dozen empty cabs pass me on the way to the airport, where they will wait for their fare for an hour or two.

[92232]

Not to long ago, motorcycles were aloud to use the HOV lanes. I would like to know when this was changed. Does this or is this part of stopping emission checks on motorcycles in Pime county only?

[92232]

I'm in!!!

[Doug_TX]

 

Let me talk w/my boss first, I am not so sure they will willingly give me that info, nor do I know if I can force them to....we may have to do some sort of outreach to find riders who were ticketed, and (not being a lawyer myself) I am not sure what happens in cases where the rider may have already paid the ticket (basically pleading guilty by default).

 

Try initiating a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)request. Perhaps have a lawyer talk with the Gilbert PD and ask if they have considered (in light of the Federal Statutes mentioned earlier) that the fines were improperly collected (based on a false charge). Perhaps use the word 'fraudulent' in the discussion might help. If ignorance of the law is no excuse on our part, it should not be so on the part of the Gilbert PD. Sauce for the goose so to speak............

[AZBaldur]

First, hats off to Nick "Deadboy", he's been a great help in getting this problem resolved.

 

Let me also say that the outpouring of support has been incredible. I'm usually someone who does a lot of reading but very little posting. I'm so glad I decided to tell my story. I've had a real eduction regarding Arizona and Federal law and never realized the amount of work the AMA does for us riders.

 

...and now, the rest of the story...I did receive a voice mail from the Sgt I spoke to earlier and he confirmed that the ticket will be dismissed. He wants me to call him in the morning so he can take care of the paperwork. He also mentioned that his Lieutenant called the DPS legislative representative to address getting it fixed in the state statutes.

 

Doug

Man, am I glad this one got resolved. I use my bike to commute to work in Phoenix 5 days a week and if I couldn't use the HOV lanes, well... I'd be just one more cager, further clogging up our already congested freeways.

 

I'm a 13-year member of the AMA and you can bet your family jewels I'm staying a member. Let's hear it for the AMA!

[Deadboy]

Sounds like they are going to do a magazine article as the best way to get the word out....these things take time but I would expect something in the next few months about this in the AMA's magazine.

 

Nick

[itroop]

 

I'm a member of a couple of other m/c forums as well as this forum. I have never seen the bonding and help from each other as I have just seen on this forum. My hat goes off to you, Deadboy. What a great thing to do for AZ. And I mean Arizona in general. When I ride to the east side from the west side, I always use the HOV lanes. Never have I been stopped by a LEO and I've passed quite a few of them.

 

Hats off to everyone in this forum You truly do "ROCK"!

[SWB]

Fighting this is going to cost you time and money, and if the local traffic judge has already pre-judged this, you will lose. It's time to go political. Depending on how that city is organized (i.e. who's an elected politician), express your frustration to the Chief of police, the Major, the City Council, and your local state representatives. You can allude to the number of outraged AZ riders that are now beginning to take up the cause. Politicians respond well to pain from constituents.

 

If "the law's the law", and you're in the wrong, you will lose, period. If it's a misinterpretation of the law, the local city attorney is going to get on top of this thing like white on rice, at the "urging" of the politicians you've contacted.

 

It'd still cost you a bunch of time, but probably less than traffic court and later appeals. I'd make the phone calls, and show up in person to a few select politico's offices, to make the case. If the law is murky enough that the Gibson police have misinterpreted, and (probably) written 100's of city-income-producing tickets, then the state politicos will have to change it, preferably before their next election. I'm usually on the side of the cops, but some are abusive, and some small towns use their traffic cops in thoroughfares (i.e. the roads the non-voting out of towners use) to pay a large chuck of their city payroll. In your case, ticketing every biker coming through on the HOV may truly be "about the money".

[DiggerJim]

Fighting this is going to cost you time and money, and if the local traffic judge has already pre-judged this, you will lose.

Scott, you might want to read the whole thread. When the AMA stepped in, the police admitted their error and were going to drop the ticket. The following discussion revolved around how to make sure they don't continue to do this to less informed riders. In this case, the "law's not the law" as it is superseded by the Feds.

Jim

[SWB]

Fighting this is going to cost you time and money, and if the local traffic judge has already pre-judged this, you will lose.

Scott, you might want to read the whole thread. When the AMA stepped in, the police admitted their error and were going to drop the ticket. The following discussion revolved around how to make sure they don't continue to do this to less informed riders. In this case, the "law's not the law" as it is superseded by the Feds.

Jim

 

Well, I did read most of the thread .... maybe I skimmed some of it ....

 

Thanks.

[SWB]

ME!

 

I'll be in Scottsdale around December! We'll stage a HOV-in!

 

We should invite their traffic unit to lunch! lol

 

-Eff

 

This is one thing that might even unite the Harley and BMW riders. Get a 100 or maybe even 1000 riders involved, pick up some local news media to spin it, and it'll become an Arizona-wide advertisement for what the law is regarding HOV lanes. Every bike rider in AZ would probably appreciate it.

[Effervescent]

Someone spearhead this. Work in a nice lunch lol We can all wear a sign about bikes and HOV on our back! Something like "Bikes & HOV: together forever, AZ!

 

I booked my flight today, btw.

 

-Eff

[Couchrocket]

This place is cool. Also, I just joined AMA.

 

 

[KMG_365]

Get a 100 or maybe even 1000 riders involved, pick up some local news media to spin it, and it'll become an Arizona-wide advertisement for what the law is regarding HOV lanes. Every bike rider in AZ would probably appreciate it.

 

Someone spearhead this. Work in a nice lunch lol We can all wear a sign about bikes and HOV on our back! Something like "Bikes & HOV: together forever, AZ!

 

I booked my flight today, btw.

 

-Eff

So, Eff--when are you going to be here? Let's talk some real dates! December is a busy month for a lot of people, but in case it works out even for just half a dozen of us it still sounds like fun! I'm up to my neck in alligators right now, but it might cool off a bit by then. If the Holiday schedule doesn't conflict I'd be interested in making this ride!

 

Just because our own awesome "Deadboy" and the AMA took this one down doesn't mean that it wouldn't still be a good way to get the word out to everyone in Arizona eventually. Besides, it sounds like a fun excuse to party!

 

Interestingly, we have the same problem here in CA. Many of our HOV lanes in CA used to have specific signage at the beginning and at every entrance point: "Motorcycles OK", but through construction, extention and vandalism (there are probably a lot of guys with one of those signs in their garage! ), there weren't many left and after the Federal law was passed the rest were taken down. Add to that the legislators, in their "finite" wisdom, decided that now that Federal law granted HOV lane access to motorcyclists the signs were superfluous and didn't need to be replaced. The result was that when the signs came down, the average brain-dead cager assumed that the law was changed barring motorcyclists from the HOV lanes and that they were justified in cutting us off and exacting vigilante justice on us (same thing with lane sharing here in CA ).

 

We've got a lobbying campaign going right now to get them replaced on every HOV lane entrance, but there's very little interest since the broad Federal law covers it they think it's not an issue (not to mention they don't want to spend the money).

 

Regarding making up for the past sins of the Gilbert PD, I think it would be a great idea if the local chapter of the AMA sent a letter to the Gilbert PD to have THEM spearhead a M/C HOV lane tour/ride as a way to atone for past sins. If it was phrased as Doug suggested--something like "in lieu of filing fraud charges or a class action lawsuit", etc., etc. it would be a win for the image of the Gilbert PD, it would get the word out about HOV lanes, it might take more cages off the roads if folks see that they can cut time off their commute (and thereby ease the congestion for non-riders as well), and potentially increase awareness of motorcyclists and improve the sport's image in general. The Gilbert PD could even have a quasi-rally before or after with door prizes or other incentives to use the opportunity to educate riders on other safety related topics, traffic laws, skill training, etc.

 

Dang! I'm on FIRE!!

[Couchrocket]

Dang! I'm on FIRE!!

See, you start becoming a labor rabble-rouser and the next thing you know you're taking on the whole world!

 

BTW, thretening a Police Department with a law suit is about like threatening a dog with a pork chop.

 

Oh, and count me "IN" for the Gilbert HOV tour!

[fla_rider]

I have been following this thread from the beginning , it's good to see that more informed members of the P.D. prevailed < even if they needed a little help, AMA rep >

 

I had recently renewed my AMA membership a few weeks ago, this just helps me realize the importance of continuing to support the AMA . If you ride you should really consider joining.

 

Nice to see a happy ending at the end of one of these stories, too often that's not the case.

[azkaisr]

Willing to let anyone stay here if this is a go and help with the party aspect.

 

Kaisr

[DryHeat]

Another rider was ticketed by Gilbert PD for an HOV violation (same ARS 28-737 as me) and the local news station, 3 On Your Side (Gary Harper), got a hold of the story. They ran the segment tonight on the 6pm news and stated several times that the Federal law clearly states motorcycles allowed, they also showed signs on a few of our freeways that said motorcycles allowed.

 

The ticket will be dismissed and when Gary Harper contacted Gilbert PD about the matter they informed him that they were already looking into it because of a complaint from a motorcycle organization (go Nick!). Gilbert PD issued a directive to their officers stating "please do not cite motorcycles for violating the HOV restrictions". I'm not keen on the wording because it looks like they are just overlooking the infraction, but at least the word is out now.

 

Doug

[Tony_K]

The Gilbert federales are finally being called out on their deliberate scam!! 

[KMG_365]

Another rider was ticketed by Gilbert PD for an HOV violation (same ARS 28-737 as me) and the local news station, 3 On Your Side (Gary Harper), got a hold of the story. They ran the segment tonight on the 6pm news and stated several times that the Federal law clearly states motorcycles allowed, they also showed signs on a few of our freeways that said motorcycles allowed.

 

The ticket will be dismissed and when Gary Harper contacted Gilbert PD about the matter they informed him that they were already looking into it because of a complaint from a motorcycle organization (go Nick!). Gilbert PD issued a directive to their officers stating "please do not cite motorcycles for violating the HOV restrictions". I'm not keen on the wording because it looks like they are just overlooking the infraction, but at least the word is out now.

 

Doug

Ooooooh, maybe we need to have that ride after-all!!

 

How about either Wednesday, December 27th, or Thursday, December 28th--right during the middle of the day? It should be kind of holiday traffic being between Christmas and New Years, the snow birds will be in town and the weather should be perfect!

 

Anyone have a bike to loan Eff if he can make it??

[Warren_H]

I just looked in the links section and there is not a link to the AMA. Can a link be added?

 

http://www.ama-cycle.org/

[azkaisr]

Link to the story that was on TV tonight

 

If you want to read about it.

 

Kaisr

[Brant Herbert]

Here's the video of that "3 on Your Side" Gary Harper piece -- link

[AZBaldur]

Ooooooh, maybe we need to have that ride after-all!!

 

How about either Wednesday, December 27th, or Thursday, December 28th--right during the middle of the day? It should be kind of holiday traffic being between Christmas and New Years, the snow birds will be in town and the weather should be perfect!

IN!

[Brant Herbert]

AMA link added to links page. Thx.

[Effervescent]

Another rider was ticketed by Gilbert PD for an HOV violation (same ARS 28-737 as me) and the local news station, 3 On Your Side (Gary Harper), got a hold of the story. They ran the segment tonight on the 6pm news and stated several times that the Federal law clearly states motorcycles allowed, they also showed signs on a few of our freeways that said motorcycles allowed.

 

The ticket will be dismissed and when Gary Harper contacted Gilbert PD about the matter they informed him that they were already looking into it because of a complaint from a motorcycle organization (go Nick!). Gilbert PD issued a directive to their officers stating "please do not cite motorcycles for violating the HOV restrictions". I'm not keen on the wording because it looks like they are just overlooking the infraction, but at least the word is out now.

 

Doug

 

YIPPEE!

 

-Eff

[Effervescent]

Anyone have a bike to loan Eff if he can make it??

 

Oh, I'll be there. Booked my flight!

 

Would love to borrow anyone's spare bike! I'll be an angel!

 

-Eff

[Effervescent]

Someone come up with a tee shirt design.

 

I can put together a CD mix of riding tunes that I'll reproduce for all.

 

Maybe, if it builds to something, we can get that news show to do a follow-up piece. We need to find out if that reporter rides!

Let's get this baby off the ground!

 

-Eff

[KMG_365]

Allright! Here's a chance for the Arizona Crew to show what they're made of!!

 

LET'S DO IT!!!!!!!!!

 

It looks like some great ideas/suggestions for making this event a boat-load of fun have already been given, so . . . we need at least someone--better would be a group--from the local "Crew" there in AZ to take up point and start organizing/delegating!!

 

Of course I'll do what I can to help from here, but I'm busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest right now (up until elections in November)!

 

I've got a block of four days off from the 26th to the 29th of December, so for purely selfish reasons, that Wednesday or Thursday would work very well for me. I know Eff will be in town as well and if no one has an extra bike to lend, I'll happily ride pillion on Leslie's bike and he can ride Maynard.

 

Hey, Eff--it looks like we might get to finally meet after all--since you never come to any UnRallies! (hint, hint!! ) Are you gonna bring your Dancin' Santee along?? He'll attach easily to Maynard's TopOfTheLine Rack!

 

This sounds like a really fun time and for a good cause, as well!!

[Firefight911]

Of course I'll do what I can to help from here, but I'm busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest right now (up until elections in November)!

 

It's merely a flesh wound!!!!

 

Sounds like fun! As things firm up, we'll see if I can put a resounding, "IN" as well. Scheduling is a little touch and go but if I can make it work, we'll try!

[KMG_365]

AMA link added to links page. Thx.

Hey, thanks, loads, Brant!!

 

With regard to the AMA, I looked into joining quite a few years ago when some of their "official positions" on some topics (i.e. helmet use) as well as the conscpicuous absence of positions for others (i.e. excessive motorcycle noise), left me pretty cold. I just re-read their latest "official positions" on motorcycling issues page, and it looks like they've really come around to a reasonable stand (in my mind at least).

 

I just read through them all, and while I still might focus slightly differently on a few topics, there is nothing there that I could not support. Considering all the things that the AMA--and their hard working advocates like our own "Deadboy" here--do for us in the courts and the public eye, I feel I HAVE to throw my support behind their efforts.

 

"Deadboy", I think you'll see our names on the roster pretty soon!

[R4ND0M_AX3]

I'll happily ride pillion on Leslie's bike...

Doesn't that kinda defeat the purpose of riding solo in the HOV lane?

[upflying]

I was excited to read of the success in overcoming ignorance of the Gilbert Police Department.

Just a what if question though. Had the opinion of the HOV laws of Gilbert PD been upheld in court which requires 2 occupants per vehicle, how would I safely and legally allow a second occupant to ride on my one occupant RT-P?

Not that I am a supporter of the ACLU but I feel I could easily claim unfair discrimnation over my right to use an HOV lane based on the type of vehicle I chose to operate.

Congratulations to all those who helped, can you imagine what would have happened had there not been the internet?

[DiggerJim]

Another rider was ticketed by Gilbert PD for an HOV violation (same ARS 28-737 as me) and the local news station, 3 On Your Side (Gary Harper), got a hold of the story. They ran the segment tonight on the 6pm news and stated several times that the Federal law clearly states motorcycles allowed, they also showed signs on a few of our freeways that said motorcycles allowed.

I so hate it when my low opinion of gov't officials is borne out. Yet for some reason I always hold out this little kernel of hope that *this time* it will be different. My earlier prediction that they'd still issue the tickets despite the AMA's stepping in and getting the original one tossed out was a reflection of my cynicism. I'm willing to bet (especially in light of the way they worded the directive to the cops) that they'd still be in the business of ticketing motorcycles in the HOV lane if they hadn't wound up on TV over this latest one.

 

In the meantime, how many other people have been jacked up deliberately & without cause? Anyone want to volunteer for a class action suit?

 

Jim

[R4ND0M_AX3]

...how would I safely and legally allow a second occupant to ride on my one occupant RT-P?..

Same problem with the Corbin Sparrow. Single seat 3 wheeled vehicle classified as a motorcycle.

Also some sport bikes.

[AZKomet]

This may have been posted already. It clearly does not include motorcycles...not that I agree with it. The lawmakers need to change it. And the posted signs that do allow m/c come under ARS 28-644.

[Tony_K]

It clearly does not include motorcycles

 

You haven't been following this thread. AZ is overriden by FEDERAL STATUTE.

They are in the wrong.

[DiggerJim]

This may have been posted already.

It has.

It clearly does not include motorcycles...

It's also been noted that federal law pre-empts and the state's only option is to convince the feds that motorcycle use of the HOV lanes is unsafe. Virginia tried that and finally gave up (thanks in some part to AMA intervention). The point is that the state knows their law is not legal and the PD in question knew it too but continued to issue tickets. That's the kind of thing that fuels the generally negative public perception of lawmakers and others' perception of LEO as little more than tax collectors despite protests to the contrary.

 

Jim

[chrisolson]

Jamie,

 

Not much available for organizing, but I would have a spare bike here in AZ for anyone to borrow for the day

[AZKomet]

Well, having the insight I do in Law enforcement I disagree. And yes, I have been reading the thread. AZ LEO's enforce state stautes. The federal laws may be points of law, however don't absolve one to violate a state staute. The federal system don't dictate what state laws are to be enacted. Only laws that violate the U.S. CONSTITUTION can be regulated by he FEDS. Likewise, only violations of the U.S. constitution will be heard in the Supreme Court. I would say that if convicted of the HOV violation then hear it in the Super Court and see what happens.

[AZKomet]

Another rider was ticketed by Gilbert PD for an HOV violation (same ARS 28-737 as me) and the local news station, 3 On Your Side (Gary Harper), got a hold of the story. They ran the segment tonight on the 6pm news and stated several times that the Federal law clearly states motorcycles allowed, they also showed signs on a few of our freeways that said motorcycles allowed.

 

The ticket will be dismissed and when Gary Harper contacted Gilbert PD about the matter they informed him that they were already looking into it because of a complaint from a motorcycle organization (go Nick!). Gilbert PD issued a directive to their officers stating "please do not cite motorcycles for violating the HOV restrictions". I'm not keen on the wording because it looks like they are just overlooking the infraction, but at least the word is out now.

 

Doug

 

YIPPEE!

 

-Eff

 

 

Like I said earlier, ARS 28-644 allows signs to control traffic. By doing so this overrides ARS 28-737. This is why one MAY have ridden in the HOV lane. Removing that sign then reverts back to ARS 28-737. It is that simple. ADOT has the authoirty to make that decision.

[DiggerJim]

Only laws that violate the U.S. CONSTITUTION can be regulated by he FEDS.

I believe that is where the argument is made. The U.S. Constitution provides Federal authority over interstate commerce. The roadways in question are part of the Interstate Highway system and thus under jurisdiction of the federal government. Of course, I believe another option is for Arizona to voluntarily withdraw from the federal interstate highway system by revoking all claim to federal highway funds and returning any money they currently have.

 

Connecticut faced a similar issue when they had tolls on Interstate 95. Faced with losing federal highway funds or abiding by the federal restriction on toll roads, they chose to keep the federal money and abolish tolls (didn't hurt that trucks with sleepy drivers kept plowing through the toll booths and killing people). Of course, there are states where the toll collection receipts exceed the federal funding and thus they decline federal funds and keep the tolls.

 

Jim