Harley is making some big changes

[fourteenfour]

Well I could not resist, they really did some wonders with the engine management and tightened up the handling really allowing the rider to forget the size of the bike.  It pulls very well and you can quickly find yourself breaking the limits if you are not careful. One advantage Harley has over BMW is they do Apple Carplay and do it very well.

 

 

[JCtx]

That thing has the wheel base of a freight train. Ha ha. And maybe 10-deg of lean? My brother owns a Street Glide, which I believe it's just like that, one but with a fork fairing (rather than fixed). It handles a lot better than previous Harleys I've ridden, but I'd never, ever buy (or ride) something like that. Just not being able to lift my butt on the pegs is an absolute deal-breaker for me. Horrible riding position.

[RTinNC]

6 hours ago, fourteenfour said:

Well I could not resist, they really did some wonders with the engine management and tightened up the handling really allowing the rider to forget the size of the bike.  It pulls very well and you can quickly find yourself breaking the limits if you are not careful. One advantage Harley has over BMW is they do Apple Carplay and do it very well.

 

 

That is a sweet looking Harley and they do handle better than they appear.  While working on riding in all the lower 48 states and still "working" I would fly to Kansas City meet a retired buddy from Texas and rent a Harley (when Harley had their own rental program) I did that for about 5 years and always rented a Ultra Limited probably putting 15,000 miles on that model over the times I rented.  One of the most comfortable bikes when rolling down the highway and having ridden one through Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, South Dakota, etc.  I can tell you they handle surprisingly well.   When they redesigned the bikes with the Rushmore update they gave them more ground clearance.  NO ... they don't handle like an RT or GS but waaaay better than I expected.  And having a dealer in every city is pretty convenient too. 

 

Good Luck with your new ride!  I always  wanted to ride a Road Glide but never have.  They say once you do you'll never go back to a bat wing fairing 

[Lone_RT_rider]

7 hours ago, JCtx said:

That thing has the wheel base of a freight train. Ha ha. And maybe 10-deg of lean? 

It's actually closer to 30 degrees. For reference the R1250RT has a lean angle of about 45 degrees.  If you have the right riding position, you can make up for the floorboards wanting to scrape in the mountains.  Don't ask me how I know.  ;) 

[Hosstage]

RT - Sport Tourer

'Glides - Tourer

 

2 different machines with some crossover of goals and abilities.

I've ridden both and each have their strong and weak points.

 

If all machines were the same, it would be a boring world indeed.

[fourteenfour]

13 hours ago, JCtx said:

That thing has the wheel base of a freight train. Ha ha. And maybe 10-deg of lean? My brother owns a Street Glide, which I believe it's just like that, one but with a fork fairing (rather than fixed). It handles a lot better than previous Harleys I've ridden, but I'd never, ever buy (or ride) something like that. Just not being able to lift my butt on the pegs is an absolute deal-breaker for me. Horrible riding position.

 

You do realize the wheel base of a K1600 is within a fraction of an inch of the Road Glide...    just saying...  

 

I have owned my fair share of RTs from 96 through 19 and even a K1300GT plus other assorted BMW ...  all them have been fun.  What attracted me to this particular bike is Harley finally updated the electronics both what you can see and what you cannot and repackaged it all in, to my eyes, a very nice motorcycle.  I really appreciate the low seat height offers and most of all the customization options.  Really do wish BMW had delivered on the R18 lineup but its probably one of their biggest misses in ages. I don't think the R1200C was as wrong as the R18 turned out to be

[9Mary7]

18 hours ago, fourteenfour said:

I don't think the R1200C was as wrong as the R18 turned out to be

Yup......

[RTinNC]

1 hour ago, 9Mary7 said:

Yup......

Ironically it appears that Harley has done a better job creating an adventure touring bike (Pan America) than BMW has done creating a cruiser.  Neither are perfect but Harley did a pretty good job of making a "GS".   I suspect one of the issues BMW has struggled with is the engine design and having the 2 big jugs mandating a more "standard" riding position,  which BMW guys might appreciate but not what "cruiser guys" are looking for. 

[Lone_RT_rider]

4 minutes ago, RTinNC said:

Ironically it appears that Harley has done a better job creating an adventure touring bike (Pan America) than BMW has done creating a cruiser.  Neither are perfect but Harley did a pretty good job of making a "GS".  

 

What HD really did right was the addition of the optional self-lowering feature that actuates as you come to a stop. As much as I hate gadgetry for the sake of technology based sales, HD understands that a good portion of their demographic is vertically challenged.  If they were going to sell a tall bike to short people, they found a perfect way to do it. 

[fatbob]

On 3/17/2023 at 11:54 AM, fourteenfour said:

the side picture I posted in my second post reveals the 121 engine has VVT which helped explain the odd engine size considering their previous motors.

I’d sure be interested to see how HD gets VVT with pushrods.  

[fatbob]

On 5/3/2023 at 6:59 AM, Hosstage said:

Big changes going forward sometimes mean going back...

 

I really like that!   I’ve been riding this HD for 36 years.  

[TEWKS]

 I told my mother this would be the last bike I ever needed to buy, it has everything! She didn’t really care but probably thought I should be doing better things with my money.
 

A lot of bikes later I only half let her down, because I still have it after 32 years.  

[Ponch]

1 hour ago, fatbob said:

I’d sure be interested to see how HD gets VVT with pushrods.  

Not a big deal. The Chevy LS/LT v-8's have VVT as does Mopar Gen 3 Hemis. 

[fourteenfour]

On 4/2/2024 at 9:58 AM, RTinNC said:

Ironically it appears that Harley has done a better job creating an adventure touring bike (Pan America) than BMW has done creating a cruiser.  Neither are perfect but Harley did a pretty good job of making a "GS".   I suspect one of the issues BMW has struggled with is the engine design and having the 2 big jugs mandating a more "standard" riding position,  which BMW guys might appreciate but not what "cruiser guys" are looking for. 

 

However sales really dropped off a cliff for the Pan America, Harley shipped only a little over five thousand in 2023.  The brand has a real issue with that Revolution Max drive train, not that it is a fully water cooled mill but that it looks like crap from the left side and their radiator is just there with no attempt to minimize its impact on the look of the bikes. Harley engines should look good from any angle and Indian demonstrated how well they could hide the radiator with their revision to the Scout line up.

 

As for the R18 line up...  as a BMW tour bike it fails from not having an electronically adjustable suspension, having a fixed windscreen, and being ridiculously overweight.  The R18B which is their Street Glide equivalent weighs 877 pounds ready to roll which is near the weight of a Harley full on tour model with a trunk.  Plus go ride one, I didn't think the reviews were fair till I did and then I thought the reviews were a little too nice. The initial reviews of the B and Transcontinental were not very nice.

 

Feature wise BMW loaded up the bikes and priced them at what can be best described as "please take it" - with finance offers that scream the same. I will be surprised if we have a 2025 model but they did invest a lot into these.

[9Mary7]

1 hour ago, fourteenfour said:

The R18B

I really really wanted this to be a nice bagger for me....... then I rode one

 

 

[Bernie]

On 4/7/2024 at 7:58 AM, 9Mary7 said:

I really really wanted this to be a nice bagger for me....... then I rode one

 

 

My dealer confirmed your experience. He said it is huge mistake. It is so heavy, folks have a problem just getting it of the side stand.

It aint no RT that's for sure.

[Paul De]

On 5/3/2023 at 9:55 PM, Red said:

Looks like two hours of riding followed by 4 hours of cleaning and polishing.

 

On 5/3/2023 at 10:42 PM, Hosstage said:

For some, sadly, that is true. I got over that a long time ago. It's not easy though, they look so pretty when they're all shined up!

LOL, so true.

 

Tangent alert.

 

A long while back I took a friend who was a 100% HD guy to the local BMW deal who put on an annual ride-in open house.  It was always a nice event with many folks riding in from some distance and the models represented went from air heads from the 60's to the latest oilhead models and at the time the all new K1200 I wanted to check out.   When we got there my friend was shocked and noted that most of the bikes were bug splattered and the wheels had plenty of road grime.  I laughed and said that was typical and that bug splatter was not frowned upon and could be respected by the other riders as a sign the owner was spending his time racking up miles.  I point out something else he should take note of. I asked him to notice as the other riders were checking out each others bikes they always took a peek at the odometer (still the analog gauge days).  I let him know that the other riders were checking to see if the bug splattered bike belonged to real deal mile cruncher rider, or just a dirty garage queen bike.  He was amused and intrigued and as we went around he started looking at the odometers and became shocked when he realized that some of the bikes there were pushing 100K miles and were only a couple model years old. He was a little staggered by the couple of bikes there that were pushing 200K. He asked how many rebuilds were done to get that many miles.  I said aside from normal maintenance typically maybe only a new clutch and a few brake pads but it could also be the bike had only normal service with all original drive train components and just normal service.

 

We had a great time that day and continued to do many rides on free afternoons.  I would work a half day, take off from the office and swing his house before heading out. But his free afternoon rides were always all day affairs, with the morning cleaning and shining his beautifully chrome accessorized Ultra Classic and a full wipe down and possible re-clean on our return to his place.  But after that day at the ride-in, he never again give me crap about showing up with my dirty RT and would sneak a peek at my odometer to see how many more miles I had put on since our last ride.

 

Different strokes

[Ponch]

32 minutes ago, Bernie said:

My dealer confirmed your experience. He said it is huge mistake. It is so heavy, folks have a problem just getting it of the side stand.

It aint no RT that's for sure.

I've not ridden any R18, but I did own a 1600 Nomad which was around 818 wet (never had a problem with the weight). After I sold it, I test rode an ultra, vision and voyager and then the RT I ended up buying. Still have it. What I found was the extra weight did little positive. The Nomad was better in cross winds than the RT and my wife preferred riding on the Nomad. If I had more than one bike, maybe I'd entertain a cruiser tourer, but having only one bike, I want something more flexible in application. With retirement looming, at this point, it is what it is. 

[Hosstage]

The R18 just plain misses all the marks: cruiser, Tourer, sport anything. Sorry to say, BMW needs to stick with what it knows: God awful ugly GSs and supremely capable sport tourers. Even a couple sport bikes thrown in for good measure.

[RTinNC]

Well I pretty much do both ... riding and cleaning.  My '16 RT has 53K and my '18GS has 25K.  I travel a lot of overnight trips and usually on long tour each year.  But at the end of each riding day my bikes get a full wipe down.  NO .... not a detail but a good cleaning.   I just prefer a clean bike and like caring for my toys.   But hey ... I realize everyone is different and ride with some folks who believe a good rain is the same as washing the bike. 

[Hosstage]

I'm jealous of those that go "never wash", it sure would make life a lot easier. But, like RTinNC, I give mine a wipe, or at least a California Duster wipe, before going out for a ride. Every now and then, it gets the full wash and detail. A whole lot of bike and sweet metal flake paint to keep clean. I don't have the energy to keep up on it like I used to.

[Dave_in_TX]

My bike gets a full wash every couple of months. Any other cleaning is usually restricted to cleaning rhe windscreen.

 

I would rather ride than wash. Maybe that's why my year old 2023 GS has 35k miles.

[fourteenfour]

Well I went with blacked out on this Road Glide because it takes less work to keep it clean  :) 

 

I am still waiting to see if BMW puts the lowering suspension on the RT...  however this time around it will not be so easy to go back.  The new 24 Street Glide and Road Glide are worth the ride even if you would never consider a Harley

[RTinNC]

13 hours ago, Dave_in_TX said:

My bike gets a full wash every couple of months. Any other cleaning is usually restricted to cleaning rhe windscreen.

 

I would rather ride than wash. Maybe that's why my year old 2023 GS has 35k miles.

I love riding as much as anyone and while not a record mileage guy have averaged over 7000 a year for the past 24 BMW years and that's while working most of those years.  But for me I just enjoy a clean bike and it really is a labor of love for me.  I appreciate those guys who never ever wash of clean their bikes.  That's what's do neat about motorcycling ... you can ride a wide spectrum of motorcycle types and enjoy motorcycling in a myriad of ways and it's all good and I enjoy ALL Of it.   I enjoy seeing a totally custom Harley or a crud covered 250 dual sport and appreciate both.  I guess it is just a passion for all things 2 wheels.  

[ADulay]

On 4/7/2024 at 7:58 AM, 9Mary7 said:

I really really wanted this to be a nice bagger for me....... then I rode one

 

 

Yep.  I’ll second that.

 

AD

[Stiggy]

From my (pretty substantial) experience with Harley touring, any BMW is a piece of cake to keep clean by comparison to all the HD nooks and crannies.

I'm at the office with my RT or B most days. My coworker (with a jewel of an HD Ultra Classic,) wouldn't dare take it to work if it's foggy or the chance of rain exceeds 20%.

If super clean is important, I don't blame him. HisHarley is a weekend warrior IMO.

(I'm due for another oil change :))

[RTinNC]

1 hour ago, Stiggy said:

From my (pretty substantial) experience with Harley touring, any BMW is a piece of cake to keep clean by comparison to all the HD nooks and crannies.

I'm at the office with my RT or B most days. My coworker (with a jewel of an HD Ultra Classic,) wouldn't dare take it to work if it's foggy or the chance of rain exceeds 20%.

If super clean is important, I don't blame him. HisHarley is a weekend warrior IMO.

(I'm due for another oil change :))

Never owned a Harley BUT have owned a Yamaha Royal Star (Road King before the Road King :-) ) and Honda Valkyrie and both had lots of shiny bits and nooks and crannies.  Have to say my GS is about equal to clean if I have a rainy day.  My RT is not as bad.  But I have put about 15K on an Ultra Limited and cleaning it after a full riding day was not that bad.  You can hose it off and hit the shiny bits and it looks good enough when on a trip.   But cleaning is not something I dislike so any bike I own is OK for me.  The Ultra Limiteds were rentals and yup then got wiped down every evening.  Same when dealer gives me a loaner.  Heck the loaners usually get returned cleaner than when I got them. 

[TEWKS]

13 minutes ago, RTinNC said:

  Heck the loaners usually get returned cleaner than when I got them.

START Room 212, 2012 Triple Black R 1200 GS.  Ya sometimes the urge to clean is just overwhelming. It’ll be there to help. 

[RTinNC]

Too funny …. I have cleaned buddies bikes on trips    You may be surprised 

[JCtx]

On 4/6/2024 at 2:42 PM, fatbob said:

I’d sure be interested to see how HD gets VVT with pushrods.  

I don't understand why all of that extra complication, to only make like 100 HP out of a basically 2L engine; that's ridiculous. At least they make like 120 TQ, but only rev to 5K, I think. An engine like the Indian Scout makes way more sense IMO. I'd never own a Harley, just for the riding position. At least BMW has a more normal riding position, where you can raise your a$$ if you see a pot hole. But most folks want the 'gynecological' position, for some weird reason. Ha ha. I'm curious to ride an R18, but I already know I'd never like a cruiser. Just curious how it compares to my brother's new Street Glide, which  actually handles better (but still awful) than I expected. Once the current generation of old geezers who buy Harleys the most, stop riding due to age (or death), I wonder what's the future of those bikes.

[fourteenfour]

22 minutes ago, JCtx said:

I don't understand why all of that extra complication, to only make like 100 HP out of a basically 2L engine; that's ridiculous. At least they make like 120 TQ, but only rev to 5K, I think. An engine like the Indian Scout makes way more sense IMO. I'd never own a Harley, just for the riding position. At least BMW has a more normal riding position, where you can raise your a$$ if you see a pot hole. But most folks want the 'gynecological' position, for some weird reason. Ha ha. I'm curious to ride an R18, but I already know I'd never like a cruiser. Just curious how it compares to my brother's new Street Glide, which  actually handles better (but still awful) than I expected. Once the current generation of old geezers who buy Harleys the most, stop riding due to age (or death), I wonder what's the future of those bikes.

 

There is more to an engine besides numbers. They do feel really good and lets face it, very few bikes have any need for more power.  I like twins, my favorite BMW are the R bikes even though I have owned a 03 K1200RS and 09 K1300GT . I keep coming back to the R bikes because the sound and feel resonate with me, the same reason I have my current Harley.  Probably the only bike from BMW I would not even bother a test ride with is the K1600, in any form. 

 

The only bikes I rode recently that I felt needed more power were the BMW G310 series and a 350 Royal Enfield - though to be completely honest the local Royal Enfield dealer has one in a sand color that is less than 6k out the door that would have tempted me at one time. 

[JCtx]

I've also owned a K1200RS and K1300GT. Ha ha. Yes, we don't need more power than our Rs, but Harleys make a lot less. And it's not only the lack of power, but a bike that revs less than my car is just not appealing to me. My R is perfectly adequate, and it doesn't need any more than that. That's why I'll never trade it for an R1300R, or any other bike, for that matter. I guess I'm not attracted to antiquated engines. Ha ha.

[Hosstage]

I've never adjusted the valves on my Harley in 130,000 miles.

 

[DonB]

14 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

I've never adjusted the valves on my Harley in 130,000 miles.

 

Something to be said about that........

[JCtx]

That is an absolute advantage for sure. But that sounds like you chose a 'fatty' over a model for the lower maintenance. I MUCH rather put up with 12K-mile valve adjustments. Ha ha. But to each his own, of course.

[Hosstage]

I also chose a "fatty" because it has a strong dealer network across the nation, and a strong aftermarket to keep it on the road long after the manufacturer stops supporting it. They are comfortable and do just about everything I ask of them. I grew up near a chopper shop, so the seed was planted early.

Not to mention, I look GOOD on it (said no one on a GS)!

[RTinNC]

3 hours ago, Hosstage said:

I also chose a "fatty" because it has a strong dealer network across the nation, and a strong aftermarket to keep it on the road long after the manufacturer stops supporting it. They are comfortable and do just about everything I ask of them. I grew up near a chopper shop, so the seed was planted early.

Not to mention, I look GOOD on it (said no one on a GS)!

Yup .... there are some real benefits in owning a Harley ... 1) Amazing dealer network, convenient when touring 2) lots of good independent shops across the USA and 3) minimal maintenance costs with hydraulic valves and belt drive.   Not to mention extraordinary parts and accessories readily available. 

[Dennis Andress]

The same can be said for a Peterbilt. 

[Hosstage]

But not for BMW...

[taylor1]

BMW doesn't support the oil industry as well as H.D either  

[RTinNC]

Just now, taylor1 said:

BMW doesn't support the oil industry as well as H.D either  

????  Are you suggesting the MPG on Harley is not as good as BMW?   That was not my experience. 

[Hosstage]

1 minute ago, RTinNC said:

????  Are you suggesting the MPG on Harley is not as good as BMW?   That was not my experience. 

Maybe he meant in the excessive use due to leaking it out...

 

[taylor1]

Hosstage nailed it      Even my 250 sprint leaked back in the day

[Lone_RT_rider]

2 minutes ago, taylor1 said:

Hosstage nailed it      Even my 250 sprint leaked back in the day

I owned an 2018 FL Electra Glide Sheriffs edition Police bike (FLHTP) for 5 years.  It never leaked a drop.  The new Milwaukee 8 engines are a good engine. 

[RTinNC]

10 minutes ago, Lone_RT_rider said:

I owned an 2018 FL Electra Glide Sheriffs edition Police bike (FLHTP) for 5 years.  It never leaked a drop.  The new Milwaukee 8 engines are a good engine. 

Yup ... never owned one but for 5 years I rented and rode an Ultra Limited.   No it did not handle like a RT or GS but it was rock solid and never leaked a drop. 

 

[Hosstage]

They haven't really leaked since 1984 when the Evo motor came out. Previous to that, the leaking reputation was well earned.

That picture I posted was of mine over a few months of dripping, probably a total of an ounce or two, a leaky seal on the shifter shaft which was a bit of a pain to replace. All better now.

[Paul De]

3 hours ago, Hosstage said:

They haven't really leaked since 1984 when the Evo motor came out.

Yes indeed. AMF cut every corner they could to prop up their bowling pin biz and gave Hawgs a bad rap for leaking oil. 

When  engine cases started to use high tech gasket sealants they are oil tight.  Particularly true for vertically split engine cases like that used on HDs.  Now in the old days even my ‘71 R75/5 airhead always seemed  to have that oil film  spread out from the cylinder base gasket over time. Not really a leak but not perfectly oil right either.  Then there was that unintended “Wethead” Kawasaki  440 where the head casting was so porous it oozed oil out and no amount of Permatex could fix that! 
 

Hawgs properly assembled haven’t needed a diaper for decades!

[roadscholar]

3 hours ago, Paul De said:

Now in the old days even my ‘71 R75/5 airhead always seemed  to have that oil film  spread out from the cylinder base gasket over time. Not really a leak but not perfectly oil right either. 

 

Plenty of air-cooled 911's especially from the mid 70's (as the engine grew from 2.4 to 2.7L) leaked oil from a combination of factors but mainly because new US pollution controls thru exhaust systems (thermal reactors) and a lean mixture made the engine run much hotter than it's designed temperature range, sometimes as much as 250-260*. Aluminum air-cooled motors expand and contract during regular operation from cold to hot (0 to 180-210*) but getting much more than that has detrimental effects on parts and performance (a noticeable decrease in HP), especially where engine cases mate and at cylinder base and head gasket surfaces, there are six separate cylinders and heads held in place by case studs and 2 one piece cam towers. 911's had a dry sump engine and held 13 quarts of oil but even so in hot climates had trouble coping until the new/improved 3.0L case arrived in 1978 on the 911SC.

 

Yes, gasket material has improved substantially since then and we used Permatex when rebuilding motors which helped a lot. I remember Siggy the shop foreman (from the factory) at the local dealer liked to say, Porsche's don't leak oil, vee have seepage, perfectly normal : )

 

  

[taylor1]

Well, I jinxed myself. Took the 60/6 out for a ride last week. Last night I noticed 3 drops of oil underneath it. Time for new push rod seals. Guess I can't complain though, not bad for a 49-year-old bike.

[fourteenfour]

On 4/10/2024 at 7:11 PM, JCtx said:

I've also owned a K1200RS and K1300GT. Ha ha. Yes, we don't need more power than our Rs, but Harleys make a lot less. And it's not only the lack of power, but a bike that revs less than my car is just not appealing to me. My R is perfectly adequate, and it doesn't need any more than that. That's why I'll never trade it for an R1300R, or any other bike, for that matter. I guess I'm not attracted to antiquated engines. Ha ha.

 

If I were asked ten years ago if I would own a Harley I would have laughed the question off. However they are very much different machines these days while not as fast in the quarter mile they will get to speed just fine and be comfortable all the while. Throw in that the aftermarket is ridiculous so you can make it exactly how you want it.  The only feature I think my Road Glide would benefit from flat out, an adjustable windscreen.  The stock one does well but nothing beats being able to switch it up on demand.

 

Harley has been rocking four valve heads for sometime now and just like BMW they water cool only the heads on their big twins. The do have VVT on the CVO tour models but the bike as I have it never felt lacking for power, it still is a fraction over four seconds to sixty but I cannot recall when that last mattered.   

 

Go ride a 2024 Road Glide or Street Glide... they will surprise you.   Are they for everyone, nah...  even I still want to ride a R1300RT when they come out.