My Clutch is Slipping??

[Randyjaco]

Today I took a 300-mile jaunt in east Texas and noticed on hard acceleration that I was getting some clutch slipping above 5K rpms. The bike is a 2017 R1200RT with 17K miles on it. It has led a pretty easy life and has no power mods. Last week I finished up my annual maintenance and otherwise, the bike is running great. Before I start buying clutch plates, I thought I would ask for some opinions.

I have made no adjustment to the clutch lever and it engages about halfway through the travel.

I am wondering if it could be the oil? It is the same 5w-40 that I have always used and I don't see ECO claims.

Any comments?

[MikeB60]

That's not the correct spec for motorcycles.  You need a JASO MA or JASO M2 for the wet clutch. I would dump the Mobil 1 and replace with an oil with the proper spec. Lots of options Castrol Power 1 is one of many choices. 

[Dave_in_TX]

5 hours ago, MikeB60 said:

That's not the correct spec for motorcycles.  You need a JASO MA or JASO M2 for the wet clutch. I would dump the Mobil 1 and replace with an oil with the proper spec. Lots of options Castrol Power 1 is one of many choices. 

For wetheads you want a JASO MA2 oil. It should also meet API SL (because of API backwards compatability requirements, SM, SL and later are OK).

 

You probably won't be able to find a 5W40 locally that meets those specs. However, Mobil 1 and Castrol Power 1 10W40 should be fine for Texas' climate. Note: The current formulation of Rotella 5W40 no longer has an API gas rating.

[Randyjaco]

Thanks guys. I will be changing the oil today

[reg26]

14 hours ago, MikeB60 said:

That's not the correct spec for motorcycles.  You need a JASO MA or JASO M2 for the wet clutch. I would dump the Mobil 1 and replace with an oil with the proper spec. Lots of options Castrol Power 1 is one of many choices. 

I agree. I have been using this since bike was new. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008MISDII/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Skywagon]

I use exactly what Reg26 posted.  I just received a case of 6 from Amazon a couple of days ago.  Randyjaco....I think you live in the Houston area.  If you need it right away, I'll loan you my oil as long as you order and replace it.  I just changed all my fluids last weekend.

 

My owners manual for the 2014 actually says BMW recommends this oil...the one above.  I understand in later years they took that recommendation out of the manual in support of their own branded oil.

[Audi403]

I'm surprised you made it 17,000 miles using car oil before it showed symptoms. Hopefully the correct oil sorts you out and you haven't caused any damage. 🤞

[TSConver]

The clutch material maybe toast after being in that oil for that long.  BTW I use this, it is also MA2 approved.

 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IKCY7L8?ref=nb_sb_ss_w_as-reorder-t1_k0_1_4&amp=&crid=5Q30Q2ZE41CR&amp=&sprefix=motu

[Rob Nowell]

 I just had my 36k service performed, and they mentioned "finding clutch material" when they changed the oil.  I used Mobil-1 when I changed it myself @ 30k.  The dealership did the 24k service prior to that.  I have not experienced or noticed any clutch or shifting problems, so I told them I'd take my chances without replacing clutch at this time.  Am I crazy?

[wbw6cos]

My apologies for the thread tangent, @Randyjaco, but was the oil analysis performed by the dealer, or did they send it out?   @Rob Nowell

 

The reason I ask is how did they determine clutch material in the used oil?

 

......enquiring minds......

[Randyjaco]

Thanks, David. I appreciate the offer. I replaced the oil today with Mobile1 motorcycle  10w40. I took it out for a hearty spin and did the ton a couple of times with a heavy throttle. The bike is really running good. The slippage had considerably reduced. I believe that I am OK. Time will tell 

Randy

[Dave_in_TX]

It may take a few hundred miles to undo the effects of the improper oil. In the meantime, I would suggest avoiding heavy throttle.

[reg26]

13 hours ago, Randyjaco said:

Thanks, David. I appreciate the offer. I replaced the oil today with Mobile1 motorcycle  10w40. I took it out for a hearty spin and did the ton a couple of times with a heavy throttle. The bike is really running good. The slippage had considerably reduced. I believe that I am OK. Time will tell 

Randy

I think I would change the oil again and run it for a while then change again after a couple thousand and you might be good to go.

[Rainman48]

On 3/5/2023 at 4:43 PM, Randyjaco said:

Thanks, David. I appreciate the offer. I replaced the oil today with Mobile1 motorcycle  10w40. I took it out for a hearty spin and did the ton a couple of times with a heavy throttle. The bike is really running good. The slippage had considerably reduced. I believe that I am OK. Time will tell 

Randy

Randy, do yourself a favor and use the proper WEIGHT oil as well.  Your bike calls for  for SAE 5W-40, API SL/JASO MA2, not 10W.

[Rob Nowell]

On 3/5/2023 at 1:21 PM, wbw6cos said:

My apologies for the thread tangent, @Randyjaco, but was the oil analysis performed by the dealer, or did they send it out?   @Rob Nowell

 

The reason I ask is how did they determine clutch material in the used oil?

 

......enquiring minds......

Nothing was sent out...

Unfortunately, I'm beginning to "wonder about" my dealer ("Trust no one, Agent Mulder").

[wbw6cos]

Sorry, but I get the image of the tech rubbing the oil between his fingers, giving it a sniff, followed by a lick- "yeah, that's clutch material alright.   Time for a new clutch!"  Or words to that effect.  

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, Rob Nowell said:

Nothing was sent out...

Unfortunately, I'm beginning to "wonder about" my dealer ("Trust no one, Agent Mulder").

Afternoon Rob 

 

I also have doubts about the tec's observation, either that or I have doubts about your oil filter being up to the job. If he found clutch material in the oil then the clutch material was obviously getting through your oil filter. 

 

Next oil change cut your oil filter open, then spread the filter element out & see if there is any clutch like material caught (this should tell the story). 

[Dave_in_TX]

4 hours ago, Rainman48 said:

Randy, do yourself a favor and use the proper WEIGHT oil as well.  Your bike calls for  for SAE 5W-40, API SL/JASO MA2, not 10W.

Yes, if you want be obsessive about it use 5w40 but in the Texas climate, it won't make any difference if 10W40 is used instead of 5W40 as long as the oil is API SL/JASO MA2.  The viscosity at operating temperature will be the same with both weights, the 10W40 will be slightly thicker on cold starts.

[Bernie]

Well Bro, you guys do it do it your own way in TEXAS!

I am just glad it doesn't get that Hot in FL. 

[Skywagon]

Randy… following DR advice; I have an oil filter cutter that will cleanly cut the filter so you can lay out the paper and check. There is another Housto Tech Day March 26. Let me know if you would like me to bring it. 
 

Bernie… It’s winter here. See how low it’s gettingMay need to break out the longjohns ?😁

[Randyjaco]

I am already scheduled for that Tech day. What are we going to be looking for on the filter paper? Do you really expect to find pieces of clutch friction material on the paper? I'm game, but I would be surprised to find anything unusual.

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, Randyjaco said:

I am already scheduled for that Tech day. What are we going to be looking for on the filter paper? Do you really expect to find pieces of clutch friction material on the paper? I'm game, but I would be surprised to find anything unusual.

Evening Randyjaco

 

You are going to be looking for anything that shouldn't be in your oil. Things like clutch material. You probably won't find anything but that will put the tec's clutch material find to rest & make you feel better. 

[Skywagon]

We can also check for metallic material. I’ll bring it and see you there. 

[Rob Nowell]

2 hours ago, Skywagon said:

Randy… following DR advice; I have an oil filter cutter that will cleanly cut the filter so you can lay out the paper and check. There is another Housto Tech Day March 26. Let me know if you would like me to bring it. 
 

Bernie… It’s winter here. See how low it’s gettingMay need to break out the longjohns ?😁

would you like to adopt me?  I don't eat much!

 

[Scott9999]

Send the oil to Blackstone Labs (or equivalent).  What's in your motor/clutch oil, @Randyjaco, won't be a mystery.   Depending on what they report back, maybe a second oil change ahead of schedule and send that in, too (if it's too soon, there probably won't be enough change to make a lab report worth anything).

 

My 2 cents (highly depreciated currency).

[9Mary7]

I think his dealer is F.O.S.

My son smoked a couple clutches during our road racing days and while the oil smelled burnt, I couldn't "see" any friction material in the oil.

Just trying to sell unneeded work to boost sales....... my .02, (probably inflated currency).

[Dave_in_TX]

@Randyjaco, Is your clutch still slipping now that you have JASO MA2 rated oil?

[Randyjaco]

I took it out today for about 200 miles. At normal speeds and acceleration, I don't notice any slippage. But, if I really shower down on it at high rpm's, there is a little bit 

[LAF]

Well the clutch pack is easy to get too so that is a good thing. 

 

From my FJR days they had us do clutch pack soaks for clutch not releasing.  I replaced mine and its spring pack with a after market.

 

But I would think you could pull the clutch pack and spray the plates down with brake cleaner and then soak them in the correct oil for a bit.    Not sure what gasket is there or if you need to use Permatex sealant on it?  I do not think running it is going to flush those plates and rings before the wrong oil does destroy the clutch plates.  The only "hard" part is knowing if there is a first and/or last plate as they can vary on each clutch pack with a ring and plate that may need to be in a specific order.

 

Hope you get it worked out.

[dirtrider]

35 minutes ago, LAF said:

Well the clutch pack is easy to get too so that is a good thing. 

 

From my FJR days they had us do clutch pack soaks for clutch not releasing.  I replaced mine and its spring pack with a after market.

 

But I would think you could pull the clutch pack and spray the plates down with brake cleaner and then soak them in the correct oil for a bit.    Not sure what gasket is there or if you need to use Permatex sealant on it?  I do not think running it is going to flush those plates and rings before the wrong oil does destroy the clutch plates.  The only "hard" part is knowing if there is a first and/or last plate as they can vary on each clutch pack with a ring and plate that may need to be in a specific order.

 

Hope you get it worked out.

Morning Lee,  Randyjaco

 

That is one of the problems in trying to cleanse the lined clutch plates with just an oil change. The clutch spends most of it's life with the clutch pack clamped tightly together so you only get  a short time exposer to new (correct) oil that can migrate into the entire plate.  About the only time you get full plate exposer is during  shifts or sitting in gear in traffic but otherwise not much full exposer to purge the plates.

 

I have had some success in the past soaking contaminated clutch plates in hot automatic transmission oil overnight (I have not tried on a BMW though). 

 

Randyjaco__ If you keep riding it with a slipping clutch (even testing it) you will glaze the plate material then it will never lock up tightly or correctly.

 

Before you actually dig into it, or completely glaze (ruin)  your clutch, you might try using a piece of Velcro strap or zip tie to hold the clutch lever in for a couple of hours after every ride (after getting the oil very hot from riding) . This will allow the hot correct oil to have full contact with the (loose) clutch plates so it can soak in over the full plate face & not just the outer & inner edges.  

 

If this doesn't work then about all you can do is try to clean the plates (LAF's brake clean suggestion is probably a darn good start). Or just bite the bullet & replace the effected plates & springs so you only go in once. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Skywagon]

Following this thread so I can learn. What actually happens to the plates with correct oil vs not correct oil?  How much of the plates actually sit in the oil bath versus rotate through it ?  Is the incorrect oil causing the plate to disentigrate more creating more dust or???  

[dirtrider]

58 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

Following this thread so I can learn. What actually happens to the plates with correct oil vs not correct oil?  How much of the plates actually sit in the oil bath versus rotate through it ?  Is the incorrect oil causing the plate to disentigrate more creating more dust or???  

Afternoon Skywagon

 

 

That is a darn good question. Supposedly the newer (mostly automotive motor oils have some anti-friction anti-wear additives in them that can, under some circumstances, cause clutch slippage). Therefore modern motorcycle oils for wet clutch usage are rated with a JASO MA or JASO MA2 rating.    Ma2 is basically a more defined (Narrower window) MA oil.   The JASO specifications are basically a Japanese engineering specification (kind of like the API is to USA oil specs).   

 

Personally I'm not disputing that but I have used non  JASO MA or JASO MA2 motor oils in motorcycles & 4 wheelers my whole life without any slipping issues (at least that weren't my doing & not the oil's doing).  But I still use a lot of older spec SG rated oil in my older motorcycles as those oils have a lot more ZDDP in them & probably also contain a lot fewer modern friction modifiers. 

 

But I can sort of tell some difference with using the correct MA or MA2 oil as far as the clutch launch feel goes on some motorcycles. Usually not a dramatic difference in launch feel but after the oil has been in the motorcycle for a while then a slight difference. 

 

The improper oil can effect the clutch slippage but I haven't seen that be a big deal in the motorcycles that I own or have owned.

 

Using MA2 in my 800GS does seem to give a little better spin-down time (released clutch drag) so finding neutral is a bit easier using the MA2 specified oil .  

 

There is probably no doubt that using the proper MA or MA2 specification oil in higher powered modern motorcycles is the correct thing to do. 

 

 

[Paul De]

Most of my experience has been once the clutch has been noticeably slipping, it will eventually get worse. Be ready to replace it.  Buy the parts and hold them on your shelf until slippage gets intolerable.   It might be that the clutch performs normal for a good while, but eventually will get way worse quickly. At least that has been my experience anyway.

 

[Prz42]

Do you self a favor and only use the clutch to start, then use the auto up & auto down shift. Also at stop light put the bike in neutral. Do this as often as you can in safe area's. I have a 2017 with 50,000 miles on it and the bike is holding up pretty good. I also use 5-40wt  I normally buy my oil from this dealer when on sale.

https://www.shopbmwmotorcycle.com/products/bmw-motorcycles-5w40-advantec-ultimate-synthetic-engine-oil-1l

 

[Audi403]

6 hours ago, Prz42 said:

Also at stop light put the bike in neutral.

I don't recommend this, neither would any riding school.

[9Mary7]

6 hours ago, Prz42 said:

at stop light put the bike in neutral

Very unsafe; Also, his use of the clutch will help flush out the friction modifiers that have contaminated his friction plates.

[TSConver]

8 hours ago, Prz42 said:

Do you self a favor and only use the clutch to start, then use the auto up & auto down shift. Also at stop light put the bike in neutral. Do this as often as you can in safe area's. I have a 2017 with 50,000 miles on it and the bike is holding up pretty good. I also use 5-40wt  I normally buy my oil from this dealer when on sale.

https://www.shopbmwmotorcycle.com/products/bmw-motorcycles-5w40-advantec-ultimate-synthetic-engine-oil-1l

 

 

Neutral at a stop light is asking to be rear-ended.

 

 

[Skywagon]

 I agree with the above video with a bit of modification.  Yes point to an escape route....but make sure you don't turn the bike somewhat sideways such that your brake light is off-set at an angle that the driver behind you has less visibility of your brake light.  Additionally I have Hyperlights on the back that flash.  I have them set to flash and then go solid.  When I stop, I pull the brake lever every few seconds to insure they continue flashing if a vehicle is approaching from the rear.

 

Now back to the purpose of the thread....slipping clutch.  It will be interesting to see if it clears itself up with the correct oil or just continues to decline.

[Paul De]

+1 on not shifting to neutral at stoplights.

When first riding street bikes, I was out riding later at night. It was getting close to bar closing time and was worried about  the drunk drivers who would be out. At a red light I had the dreaded headlights rolling up from behind while anxiously waiting for the light to go green.  Thankfully,  all cross traffic had cleared and my eyes stayed on the rear view mirror.  I could see the car from behind didn’t change its closing rate and it finally spooked me into a hard launch through the red light.  At that moment I heard the idiot driver lock up in a panic stop. His car did stop…right on the spot I had vacated.  The hair on my neck still stands up writing about this almost 48 years later.

 

Besides, folks advising here are hoping that with enough time with the clutch disengaged the open plates circulating in the right spec oil bath it will wash the slip modifiers out of the fiber of the friction plates.  Hope that works out without the need for an R&R of the friction plates. 

[Randyjaco]

Well, I thought I would finish up this thread. The clutch is now running like new. No slippage at all. What happened? I replaced the friction disks with new ones and filled the motor with proper  MOTORCYCLE oil.

 

As stated before the old friction plates even with the old oil replaced continued to slip. I probably could have replaced the oil a dozen times and the result would have been the same. What ever was in the car oil had done its damage and it wasn't going to fix itself. It is my belief that the bad actor had been fully absorbed by the friction plates and wasn't going to come out. I believe that even if I had removed all the plates and soaked them all in solvent and then reinstalled them, I probably would have only slowed down the demise of the clutch; not fixed the problem. Since tearing down the clutch is a pretty big job, I elected to instaul all new clutch disks and get the job done right. Earlier this week the complete clutch plate set cam in and I began the task. On removing the old plates, I could see nothing obviously wrong with them. There was no tell tail odor. The friction and steel plates actually looked pretty good. There was very little wear and no burned or glazed steel plates. There was no evidence that the clutch had been slipping. The stack of friction plates was within BMW recommendations.

Upon installing the new plates, I found that the new steel plates did not fit 

Rather than wait two more weeks, I opted to go with the old steel disks, as I saw no damage and the thicknesses were within spec. I soaked the old steel disks first in gasoline and then abraded them with a ScotchBrite pad. After that they were rinsed in paint thinner. The new fiber disks were soaked in new motorcycle oil for about an hour. Everything was then assembled per the BMW manual. Upon final assembly, I did have a hitch with the hydraulic clutch, which was ironed out and documented on another thread on this website.

Finally, everything was functioning properly. I buttoned everything up and installed fresh synthetic motorcycle oil. Initially the bike would go through all the gears, but would not go into neutral when the motor running. That corrected itself after about an hour's worth of running. During that ride, I did my best to cause the clutch to slip. It now only slips if I depress the clutch lever

I have learned my lesson: Only run motorcycle oil in a motorcycle engine!  Back in the old days one could get away with it, but times and technology have changed.

 

 

 

Some thoughts: I doubt that even a professional could determine if the wrong oil was used, without a chemical analysis. If bad oil is introduced, the only proper solution is probably replacing the disks. Removing and retoqueing the upper two screws on the clutch cover is a royal bitch. It either requires removing the front end of the motorcycle or some ingenious special tool. I probably spent an hour on just those two screws. Before starting work on your clutch, become very familiar on the workings of the hydraulic clutch assembly.

 

I still have the old oil filter, if someone wants to see its contents. That is probably a waste of time. 

 

Thanks again for everyone's help.

[Skywagon]

Nice write up Randy... Glad you got it going.  Hold on to the oil filter.  I didn't make the tech day because it was raining here when it started.  I would still like to cut it open and check it.  I doubt there is any issue, but will be interesting to see.  I rode to Surfside Beach today and met the guys from the Westside for lunch.  Came home and did a final drive spline lube.

[Paul De]

Glad to hear you’re back to a normally functioning clutch.  What ever the friction modifier additive is in that automobile oil you used it seems like some darn effective stuff if you couldn’t see any glazing on your clutch fiber and steel plates.  I suppose if you ran it slipping for a good while longer glazing would eventually be observed.  I’ve also reused the steel plates many times. As long as they spec out for thickness and are not warped, with a light sand blast to the friction surface have worked like a champ.

 

Sorry that an oil change with automotive oil cause such a messed up clutch and I consider myself fully warned of the pitfall of doing so.

 

Happy trails!

[Dave_in_TX]

On 3/13/2023 at 1:08 AM, Prz42 said:

Do you self a favor and only use the clutch to start, then use the auto up & auto down shift. Also at stop light put the bike in neutral. Do this as often as you can in safe area's. I have a 2017 with 50,000 miles on it and the bike is holding up pretty good. I also use 5-40wt  I normally buy my oil from this dealer when on sale.

https://www.shopbmwmotorcycle.com/products/bmw-motorcycles-5w40-advantec-ultimate-synthetic-engine-oil-1l

 

I rarely used the shift assist (auto up & down) on my 2014 R1200GS, yet the original clutch was still fine when bike was sold at 132k miles.

[Randyjaco]

I love using the Shift Assist, but after 60 years of shifting with a clutch, it is damn hard to remember not to use the clutch lever

[Skywagon]

On 4/4/2023 at 5:08 PM, Dave_in_TX said:

I rarely used the shift assist

 

I can count on one hand how many times I've used it since my bike was new in 2014.

[Audi403]

I only use the clutch from 1st to 2nd gear...

[Red]

I have a 2018.  Have never used shift assist.

[bendbill]

28 minutes ago, Red said:

I have a 2018.  Have never used shift assist.

How much shifting can there be after downtown Burns 

[Paul De]

I can go either way.  Never went clutch-less shifts on my street bikes until I bought a Wethead with SA.   I was always worried that the weight of the bike, grip of the tires on a paved surface, and ratio spacing between gears could beat hell on the dogs and maybe cause a bent a shift fork.  I have tended to use SA a lot more over the years of having my 2015, but still always use a clutch on down shifts when riding frisky to make damn sure I get the gear I want at the moment I want it.  I've had the computer decide a few times to not do a down shift for a moment after my foot says now, which has made for some sphincter pinching moments. The up shifts are just too fun not to use SA.  The feel of strong linear pull up to speed when hard on the throttle is awesome...your mileage will suck though

 

 

[MikeB60]

On 4/7/2023 at 5:56 PM, Paul De said:

I can go either way.  Never went clutch-less shifts on my street bikes until I bought a Wethead with SA.   I was always worried that the weight of the bike, grip of the tires on a paved surface, and ratio spacing between gears could beat hell on the dogs and maybe cause a bent a shift fork.  I have tended to use SA a lot more over the years of having my 2015, but still always use a clutch on down shifts when riding frisky to make damn sure I get the gear I want at the moment I want it.  I've had the computer decide a few times to not do a down shift for a moment after my foot says now, which has made for some sphincter pinching moments.

 

 

This is the opposite of my experience with shift assist pro.  The downshift function is brilliant when setting up for a corner. I've never experienced an issue with my 2016 or 2019 GS when downshifting using the shift assist. I'm typically on the hard on the brakes and high in the rpms in this scenario. I've spoken with others who use shift assist in the same type of riding who also share my thoughts.