Electricians, can ya answer me this

[Rougarou]

My daughter has a mobile home.

 

I was over installing a dishwasher, so I needed a 20amp circuit to run it on.

 

Her kitchen has three outlets.  Fridge is on a circuit by itself, which leave two other outlets (microwave one one and she has her coffee maker on the other).

 

Trying to find the correct breaker proved an issue.  One by one, I'd flip the breakers and the outlet I wanted to tap into, never went off unless I killed main power........which was odd.

 

So, I opened the outlet box and find a spiders web of lines going in.  Outlet has four sets of push in type connectors of which, all four were filled (see example below--but my wording).  One set could easily be ID'd as it was to an overhead light.  After I found this issue out, and before continuing on, I checked the breakers and that outlet and what appears to be all items attached to the "lights" breaker and "kitchen" breaker would not go out unless I killed BOTH the 15amp breaker and 20amp breaker,......leaving either on would keep power to it all.  What I found was the 15 amp breaker labeled "lights" fed into this outlet as well as a 20 amp breaker labeled "kitchen".  So, I start disconnecting the others, un by un and checking the breakers to see which went to what.

 

Once I determined what went where I tied the 15 amp lines (two sets) to each other as well as adding the over head light to it.

 

This left me with plenty of space to add the dishwasher line to.  I think on the 20amp circuit, this is the last outlet in the line

 

My question is this:  Why would both the 15 amp and 20 amp feed into the same outlet?  Doesn't make sense to me, but I'm just a shadetree electrician.

 

 

[Hosstage]

Which appliance does this outlet feed?

I have a feeling that the 15 amp feeder was not supposed to be tied to the outlet, but rather spliced to the lights. You can double feed an outlet in order to use one outlet as a switched lamp circuit, but then the tab linking the two outlets needs to be cut (I think the gold tab shown in the pic).

Is it a 20 amp rated outlet? Pretty rare that lights need 20 amps unless something special.

[Rougarou]

That single outlet only had her coffee maker plugged to it.  Outlet is in the kitchen and while it should be a 20amp outlet, I did not verify.  (the picture above is just an example I pulled showing the ability of four sets being plugged in the back)

 

Right now, that outlet now only has the line coming in (feeder) and a single line going out to the dishwasher.

 

I'm thinking it was not supposed to have the light circuit fed to it as well.

 

The perplexing thing was when you killed each individual breaker, that outlet and those lights would not go off.  You had to kill the 15 amp lights breaker AND the 20 amp kitchen breaker, only then would that outlet, those lights go dead.

[9Mary7]

"I'm thinking' y'all ain't the first shadetree electrician that's been in that panel"- Captain Obvious

[Hosstage]

1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

That single outlet only had her coffee maker plugged to it.  Outlet is in the kitchen and while it should be a 20amp outlet, I did not verify.  (the picture above is just an example I pulled showing the ability of four sets being plugged in the back)

 

Right now, that outlet now only has the line coming in (feeder) and a single line going out to the dishwasher.

 

I'm thinking it was not supposed to have the light circuit fed to it as well.

 

The perplexing thing was when you killed each individual breaker, that outlet and those lights would not go off.  You had to kill the 15 amp lights breaker AND the 20 amp kitchen breaker, only then would that outlet, those lights go dead.

 

Yes, the reason one breaker didn't kill power is because it was being fed with 2 circuits, very very dangerous. It's a good thing you found it and pulled one circuit off and isolated it, or at least I hope you did. 

[Rougarou]

8 hours ago, Hosstage said:

 

Yes, the reason one breaker didn't kill power is because it was being fed with 2 circuits, very very dangerous. It's a good thing you found it and pulled one circuit off and isolated it, or at least I hope you did. 

 

As far as I know, this was an original outlet.

 

Wiring looked to be "professionally" done as it had the crimps on the ground wire.

 

Daughter's been living in this place three plus years with no issues.

 

Just found it odd that the this could be done.

 

Now the 15amp breaker only powers the lights and the 20amp is on the kitchen outlets.......rougarou wired

[Hosstage]

Glad you got it straightened out. I'm sure it was original and"professionally" installed, but even professionals make mistakes. Mobile homes are assembly line manufactured, for sure an apprentice doing much of the wiring, or not even an electrician required depending on the state of manufacture.

[Rougarou]

1 hour ago, Hosstage said:

Glad you got it straightened out. I'm sure it was original and"professionally" installed, but even professionals make mistakes. Mobile homes are assembly line manufactured, for sure an apprentice doing much of the wiring, or not even an electrician required depending on the state of manufacture.

 

Well, if it was an apprentice, the senior technician/installer failed, the quality control failed and the inspector failed.

 

That'd be alotta failures.

 

To me, it's quite simple.  Main on, all breakers off, flip them on one by one.  If two breakers power the same items, there "may" be an issue.

[Hosstage]

You are correct, there were a lot of failures that happened. How many other homes built by that company at the same time have that same failure?

[RogerC60]

Residential 110/220V power in the United States is done by a center-tapped 220V secondary on the transformer. The center tap goes to earth ground and is also the neutral (white wire). The two ends of the transformer secondary are the two 110V hot (black) wires. So, between the two "hot" feeds into your breaker box you have 220V. Between either one of them and neutral you have 110V.

 

Those two separate circuits going to that one outlet MUST have both been on the same side of the transformer. Otherwise, the main breaker would immediately trip as soon as you closed it.

[Dennis Andress]

Brutally honest, yet sound advice...

[Twisties]

The answer to your question, "why" is error.  No reason for this.  As was pointed out above, if the connecting tab had been severed it may have had some purpose and been legal.  However, you proved that it was not because you found either feed drove the lights.  So, this was mis-wired, and in a dangerous manner.  Sounds like you got it right now.  Good job.

[Dennis Andress]

2 minutes ago, RogerC60 said:

Residential 110/220V power in the United States is done by a center-tapped 220V secondary on the transformer. The center tap goes to earth ground and is also the neutral (white wire). The two ends of the transformer secondary are the two 110V hot (black) wires. So, between the two "hot" feeds into your breaker box you have 220V. Between either one of them and neutral you have 110V.

 

Those two separate circuits going to that one outlet MUST have both been on the same side of the transformer. Otherwise, the main breaker would immediately trip as soon as you closed it.

 

So that's how it works. Thanks.

[Rougarou]

15 minutes ago, RogerC60 said:

Residential 110/220V power in the United States is done by a center-tapped 220V secondary on the transformer. The center tap goes to earth ground and is also the neutral (white wire). The two ends of the transformer secondary are the two 110V hot (black) wires. So, between the two "hot" feeds into your breaker box you have 220V. Between either one of them and neutral you have 110V.

 

Those two separate circuits going to that one outlet MUST have both been on the same side of the transformer. Otherwise, the main breaker would immediately trip as soon as you closed it.

 

 

I didn't crack the cover to see how the internal wiring of the breaker box was laid out but the breakers are on separate sides of centerline.  Dunno if mobile home breaker boxes are set up different than standard home.  The box states its good for 200amp service.

 

I thunk that two feeds would produce 220v as well, but meter only pulled 110v.

 

Wife's happy that I didn't just try to hotwire the damn thing in like I do most 'lectric work......she knows to keep a wooden broomstick handy to whack me

[RogerC60]

Most breaker boxes I've seen have alternating hots going down both sides. That way a 220V breaker can be simply a double-wide that hits two consecutive hot tabs.

[Rougarou]

23 minutes ago, RogerC60 said:

Most breaker boxes I've seen have alternating hots going down both sides. That way a 220V breaker can be simply a double-wide that hits two consecutive hot tabs.

 

Gotcha.

 

This one is 15amp on left side, then about four-five spaces down on the right side is the 20amp

[Twisties]

If it was 110 V, then they were both off the same side and merely redundant, not doubling voltage.  Still dangerous and a violation because turning off what you think is the breaker doesn't cut the power.

[Rougarou]

14 minutes ago, Twisties said:

If it was 110 V, then they were both off the same side and merely redundant, not doubling voltage.  Still dangerous and a violation because turning off what you think is the breaker doesn't cut the power.

 

The two breakers are on opposite sides of centerline of the breaker box.

[Twisties]

1 minute ago, Rougarou said:

 

The two breakers are on opposite sides of centerline of the breaker box.

Right, but the poles alternate sides, so they were on the same pole.  Same side, I put it, but pole is a more precise term.  I meant "side" in the sense of one of the poles being on the left and one the right.  But they have extensions/teeth that reach across the box every other position.  So, the evidence is that by chance these were on a single pole that originated either on the left, or the right of the box.  

[Rougarou]

6 minutes ago, Twisties said:

Right, but the poles alternate sides, so they were on the same pole.  Same side, I put it, but pole is a more precise term.  I meant "side" in the sense of one of the poles being on the left and one the right.  But they have extensions/teeth that reach across the box every other position.  So, the evidence is that by chance these were on a single pole that originated either on the left, or the right of the box.  

 

Thanks, learning is occuring.

 

I'ma pull the cover the next time I go over and eyeball it.

[Rinkydink]

I was a lineman for 13 years. I’ve seen what 13kv can do when things go awry. It scares the hell out of me. You cannot see electricity.  It prefers the path of least resistance and will reach out and touch you. 

[John Ranalletta]

8 minutes ago, Rinkydink said:

I was a lineman for 13 years. I’ve seen what 13kv can do when things go awry. It scares the hell out of me. You cannot see electricity.  It prefers the path of least resistance and will reach out and touch you. 

I start every m/c ride with this thought: "I am not going to die today."

 

I start every episode of re-wiring, installing 50amp circuit, etc. with, "Do not become part of the circuit."

[Rougarou]

2 hours ago, Rinkydink said:

I was a lineman for 13 years. I’ve seen what 13kv can do when things go awry. It scares the hell out of me. You cannot see electricity.  It prefers the path of least resistance and will reach out and touch you. 

 

I respect the process of what I am doing and accept the danger.

 

2 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

I start every episode of re-wiring, installing 50amp circuit, etc. with, "Do not become part of the circuit."

 

Sometimes a little tingle let's you know that you got real close to being that circuit and you need to back off and re-adjust.

 

Most of the outlets in my house, I've replaced.  Previous owners had pets that appeared to like rubbing the walls.  There was a "grease" line about outlet high through the hallways.  Of those outlets, 75%+ were wired while the circuit was hot.  Light switches and lights, same thing, most all were wired while hot.

[ESokoloff]

6 hours ago, Twisties said:

Right, but the poles alternate sides, so they were on the same pole.  Same side, I put it, but pole is a more precise term.  I meant "side" in the sense of one of the poles being on the left and one the right.  But they have extensions/teeth that reach across the box every other position.  So, the evidence is that by chance these were on a single pole that originated either on the left, or the right of the box.  

A picture is worth a thousand words….

 

 

This is a 20 breaker 120/240 panel on the inside.  
The buss bars (silver strips) feed each side of the panel (left/right). 
The breakers stab into the buss bars on the horizontal section. 

The left buss bar feeds the odd numbered breakers & the right bar feeds the even numbered (both sides of panel top to bottom, left to right). 
One breaker (ether side) plus neutral yields 120v. 
Put two opposite legs together equals 240v (no neutral required). 
In some cases opposite legs can share a neutral as it carries the imbalance of the two legs. 
 

The circuit you were working on was feed from the same buss bar.  
 

[Rinkydink]

12 hours ago, Rougarou said:

 

I respect the process of what I am doing and accept the danger.

 

 

Sometimes a little tingle let's you know that you got real close to being that circuit and you need to back off and re-adjust.

 

Most of the outlets in my house, I've replaced.  Previous owners had pets that appeared to like rubbing the walls.  There was a "grease" line about outlet high through the hallways.  Of those outlets, 75%+ were wired while the circuit was hot.  Light switches and lights, same thing, most all were wired while hot.

I’ve replaced all of my wall outlets, ceiling fans, and my 220v electric dryer outlet went south last year but none were worked hot. Dryer quit working for some strange reason. Of course I went out and bought a lottery ticket immediately afterwards. 

 

 

 

[Rougarou]

10 minutes ago, Rinkydink said:

I’ve replaced all of my wall outlets, ceiling fans, and my 220v electric dryer outlet went south last year but none were worked hot. Dryer quit working for some strange reason. Of course I went out and bought a lottery ticket immediately afterwards. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[terryofperry]

17 hours ago, ESokoloff said:

The left buss bar feeds the odd numbered breakers & the right bar feeds the even numbered (both sides of panel top to bottom, left to right). 
One breaker (ether side) plus neutral yields 120v. 
Put two opposite legs together equals 240v (no neutral required). 

@ESokoloff Can you explain this further as well as what you mean by "opposite legs"? Thanks.

Terry

[lkraus]

Typical U.S. residential power is supplied as alternating current over three wires - two "hot" wires (legs) carrying 240 Volts and a neutral.  If you measure the voltage of a leg with respect to neutral the voltage varies 60 times a second from zero to +120 to zero to -120 and back to zero.  The two legs (or split phases) are out of sync with each other by half a cycle, so one is high when the other is low. Voltage with respect to each other varies from 0 to 240.

A 120V outlet will have one wire connected to one "leg" and the other wire connected to neutral. 

A 240V outlet will have one wire connected to each leg.

 

The breaker panels are made so that breakers on a side connect to alternating busbars as you move down one side of the panel. That simplifies wiring and the manufacture of breakers that will disconnect both sides of a 220V circuit at the same time. It may also help spread 120V loads over both wires of the 240V feed.

 

The diagram from here might explain better how the breakers are wired. The two busbars are opposite legs. 

[ESokoloff]

Here’s a video diving into the subject. 
 

 

[ESokoloff]

14 hours ago, Rinkydink said:

I’ve replaced all of my wall outlets, ceiling fans, and my 220v electric dryer outlet went south last year but none were worked hot. Dryer quit working for some strange reason. Of course I went out and bought a lottery ticket immediately afterwards. 

 

 

 

Per chance were the wires connected to the outlet via the push in option?

 

I don’t trust that method choosing instead to utilize the screws. 

[Hosstage]

19 minutes ago, ESokoloff said:

Per chance were the wires connected to the outlet via the push in option?

 

I don’t trust that method choosing instead to utilize the screws. 

Many inspectors will not accept the push-in style connection, as shown in Roug's original pictures, they mandate the use of the screw terminals. 

[Rinkydink]

22 minutes ago, ESokoloff said:

Per chance were the wires connected to the outlet via the push in option?

 

I don’t trust that method choosing instead to utilize the screws. 

Yes they were!  All of the new ones are wrapped (clockwise😳) around the screws firmly. The old outlets were worn out so bad unless you bent the prongs your cord wouldn’t even remain plugged in. 

[Rougarou]

8 hours ago, Hosstage said:

Many inspectors will not accept the push-in style connection, as shown in Roug's original pictures, they mandate the use of the screw terminals. 

 

Heck, when I re-wire, all mine are done via push in,.....I'm lazy that way,....push in, yank a few times, zero movement, re-install.  The only time I don't do push in is when I'm running 12g wire into a 14g outlet/switch.....those get wrapped around the screws.  Ya, ya, ya, "you shouldn't run 12g into a 14g it's wrong, blah, blah, blah"

[Hosstage]

Better to run oversized wire than undersized. As long as the outlet isn't overdriven (20 amp breaker on a 15 amp outlet), it will work fine.

Here is a quick read on the disadvantages and dangers of using the push-in terminal verses using the screws. Push-in terminals have been blamed for many fires. They also are not the best connector, it can cause appliance failure due to poor connection. Best case, the outlet fails. Worst case, and unfortunately far too often, fire.

It is common practice in the commercial industry to use the screw terminals and then wrap electrical tape around the outlet to prevent shorts and accidental shocks. Even if using the push connectors, the screws are hot, tape is recommended.

[Rinkydink]

Some of my outlets had stopped working and when I opened them up some wires had backed out of the push in connectors. My outlet boxes are plastic so I don’t worry about taping the terminals. If you are not smart enough to know

not to reach in there you don’t need to be in there anyway. 😎

[Hosstage]

When working in hospitals it is not always possible, or at least convenient, to power down outlets and sometimes need to be serviced while hot. Taping the connectors reduces risk of shock or shorts while removing and installing the outlet.

Wires working their way out from the push connectors is quite common.

Spend the money on the better outlets when replacing or installing, at least the mid-rate grade, the cut rate outlets are not worth the headaches. 

[Rougarou]

So, this one time at my old house, I kept popping the breaker on my garage circuit.

 

Well, that circuit was the garage, outside plugs and walk-in crawl space basement area.

 

On that circuit, I had a deep freezer, refrigerator/freezer, 1965 Pepsi machine and portable A/C as well as stereo and TV.  Additionally, that circuit would power my power tools........'twas only a 20amp breaker.

 

So, since the breaker kept popping, I decided it needed a bigger breaker and installed a 30 amp breaker,......didn't do anything with the wires.  (I needed a bigger boat)

 

Yearish later, hot summa night, we're in the party garage and I go to plug something additional where my A/C is plugged and the outlet cover is hot-hot,......hmmmm, "methinks I gots too much running on this"......which led me to create a seperate externally mounted circuit for just the garage,......I ran 10g wiring for that and a 30amp breaker.

 

Safety is not really a priority for me

[ESokoloff]

On 12/7/2022 at 4:43 AM, Rougarou said:

Ya, ya, ya, "you shouldn't run 12g into a 14g it's wrong, blah, blah, blah"

Can you clarify this?

 

14awg (American Wire Gauge) is rated for 15amps
12awg is rated for 20amps

If your installing 12awg on a 15amp circuit there’s nothing wrong that I know of. 
In fact it might be required depending on the length of the run. 

[Rougarou]

12 minutes ago, ESokoloff said:

Can you clarify this?

 

14awg (American Wire Gauge) is rated for 15amps
12awg is rated for 20amps

If your installing 12awg on a 15amp circuit there’s nothing wrong that I know of. 
In fact it might be required depending on the length of the run. 

 

Underlying is 12g into a 14g is that I ran 12g into a 15amp outlet/switches.  Didn't use the push in's 'cause the 12g wouldn't fit,......and I really, really tried

[Hosstage]

I can see you pushing on those like they insulted your family!

Or worse, your fellow Marines. You can insult them, but heaven help anyone else that insults them.

Stupid 12ga wire must be punished.

[Rougarou]

Square peg, round hole!!

[ESokoloff]

On 12/7/2022 at 6:27 AM, Hosstage said:

Spend the money on the better outlets when replacing or installing, at least the mid-rate grade, the cut rate outlets are not worth the headaches.

& also consider 20amp outlets on 20amp circuit's  

 

 

 

[Scott9999]

11 hours ago, ESokoloff said:

Can you clarify this?

 

14awg (American Wire Gauge) is rated for 15amps
12awg is rated for 20amps

If your installing 12awg on a 15amp circuit there’s nothing wrong that I know of. 
In fact it might be required depending on the length of the run. 

Ya know, that's what I thought when I did an electrical renovation on my second house (the one before the new house I built in 2016).  I took a 15A circuit and added yellow 12AWG wire to extend it for some ceiling pot lights, probably because I had a left over spool of the 20A wire, and didn't want the extra trip to the store and addition cost of a new spool of 15A/14AWG wire that I wouldn't likely use up for years.  

 

Well, when I was building/renovating the current home, as I was researching electrical code, -- at this point, I can't recall if it's actually in the electrical code, or just a Master electrician's advice, but the problem of mixing 15A (white) and 20A (yellow) Romex is that future electricians (or ham handed homeowners, like me) may see the yellow 12 AWG ROMEX, and extend the circuit as if it's a 20A circuit, whereas the fuse/breaker and originating circuit ROMEX is only built for 15 amp.  That made a lot of sense to me.  While the breaker would eventually pop if someone hung a 20 AMP plug on that 15AMP circuit, it's an electrical fire just waiting to happen.

 

I had the electrician install all 20AMP/12AWG circuits for my receptacles, where as the light fixtures run 15 AMP/14AWG ROMEX.  He proposed that configuration, which made sense, since 90% + of my lights (e.g. ceiling pot lights) are all LED's, in the new home.  the higher amp's provide the extra power that all of today's computers and electrical gismos use. 

 

Aside:  One problem I've had is that there's a 20A circuit in my house that consistently throws the breaker when bearing loads much LESS than 15A.  🙄   I expect that the problem is a bad breaker (i.e. since I've had a least 3 of my GFI receptacles fail within the first 3 years (Chinese crap!), so I figure one of the breakers probably died as well).   However, I've never worked around a 200A panel before, and am reluctant to test it myself.  (Actually, with this thread, I feel a lot better about it.  Just pop the main breaker, test the circuit to ensure it's dead, pull it out and apply a tester to it for resistance, and install the new one if necessary.   I guess that's a Spring project for next year.  If it's not the breaker, then my guess is that the drywall crew's screw gun found another target in my 12 AWG/20A wire.   I already replaced the receptacle itself, so I know that it's good.)

[Hosstage]

It could be a bad breaker, it could be a loose connector or splice in another box that feeds that outlet.

Is it the same device that is blowing the circuit, or does it happen no matter what is plugged in? What else is on that circuit?

[Rougarou]

8 hours ago, Scott9999 said:

 as I was researching electrical code,

 

See, there's your issue, you trying to follow somebody's guide, a "best practice" kinda thing.

 

To my original post, it wasn't "is this code" or "is this allowed or not allowed" but "how can this work". 

 

If you put it together and it works, leave it alone.  If you later discover an issue, re-visit, explore options and adjust.  For my daughters issue, that outlet has likely been there since the home was built (bout 1990ish)

 

Quote

but the problem of mixing 15A (white) and 20A (yellow) Romex is that future electricians (or ham handed homeowners, like me) may see the yellow 12 AWG ROMEX, and extend the circuit as if it's a 20A circuit, whereas the fuse/breaker and originating circuit ROMEX is only built for 15 amp.

 

Ummm, I'm just a shadetree 'lectrician, and I don't go off of the wire itself but the breaker.  My basement garage has wiring running through it that would make a ship's engineer go nuts (if you recall your ship days and overhead wiring).  Some of that I ran, most of that was here when I got here.  My house has an addition, so there's a sub panel on it as well.  Then there's 10g running from a 30amp breaker that goes the 150ft to the barn.  Anyone diddling with wiring should base their extensions off the breaker and not the wire they are tapping into.

 

 

 

Quote

One problem I've had is that there's a 20A circuit in my house that consistently throws the breaker when bearing loads much LESS than 15A.  🙄   I expect that the problem is a bad breaker (i.e. since I've had a least 3 of my GFI receptacles fail within the first 3 years

 

Get rid of the GFI receptacle and go with a GFI breaker------but there will prolly be somebody that's against that

 

Quote

However, I've never worked around a 200A panel before, and am reluctant to test it myself. 

 

My house has a 225 panel, old house was 220.  Only advise, don't touch the big lugs at the top and those big lugs are ALWAYS powered (unless you kill service coming to the house). 

 

Running wires in is easy, adding new breakers are easy.  If you can do an outlet, you can pop the cover on a panel and install a new circuit.  If you're timid, kill the main and hook up the new circuit, but you'd still have to remember the big lugs at the top are always hot.

[Hosstage]

Remember that electrical code wasn't written to make sure a device or circuit works, it was written to keep people safe.

I agree with removing the GFCI on the troublesome circuit, eliminate that as a cause. Replacing a breaker, even with the panel staying hot, is pretty easy, the breaker snaps out, or rotates out, remove the wires from the old breaker and install on the new breaker, snap the new breaker into place. No need to wait for other work being done or even throw the main breaker to power down the panel. Once the breaker is removed, the wires connected to it are dead. Or at least should be if there is no backfeed going to them, like Roug's circuit had. Take your time when removing the cover, don't drop anything into the panel. Wear work gloves if you're still nervous, that helps eliminate a shock hazard.

[Rougarou]

1 hour ago, Hosstage said:

Remember that electrical code wasn't written to make sure a device or circuit works, it was written to keep people safe.

 

So are speed limits and stop signs, but we all exceed the speed and roll through stop signs

 

 

1 hour ago, Hosstage said:

I agree with removing the GFCI on the troublesome circuit, eliminate that as a cause. Replacing a breaker, even with the panel staying hot, is pretty easy, the breaker snaps out, or rotates out, remove the wires from the old breaker and install on the new breaker, snap the new breaker into place. No need to wait for other work being done or even throw the main breaker to power down the panel. Once the breaker is removed, the wires connected to it are dead. Or at least should be if there is no backfeed going to them, like Roug's circuit had. Take your time when removing the cover, don't drop anything into the panel. Wear work gloves if you're still nervous, that helps eliminate a shock hazard.

 

meter it all

[Scott9999]

3 hours ago, Rougarou said:

 

Get rid of the GFI receptacle and go with a GFI breaker------but there will prolly be somebody that's against that

 

I was contrasting the overall quality of the job and components, i.e. the failed GFI's were GFI receptacles.  The receptacle that's having the problem is a standard 20A receptacle, on a GFI controlled, 20A breaker circuit, to a bedroom.   That's my target for replacement.   I haven't tested every receptacle recently, but I believe this heater blows the breaker on any receptacle in the circuit, with only the heater on the circuit.  It works fine on the next bedroom's, separate circuit.  Ergo, it's the breaker, or the line is buggered somewhere between the breaker and first receptacle.

 

I have to figure out WHAT that breaker is, before I can even find the part.  I don't want to do this twice, i.e. shut down power, test the breaker (maybe pull it to test it, maybe not), then go buy the part and do it all again.   I was trying to describe it, lol, because I've never seen one of these, which is part of my reason for procrastination.  Well, I think this is it (but mine has the number 1628 imprinted on it, this does not, and there seem to be multiple versions out there, some with a yellow GFI test tab; this an mine have a white one, so, WTH, I don't know - procrastination continues ....). 

 

(Anyhow, what was this thread about? 🙄😖)  

 

Square D - HOM120PCAFIC Homeline Circuit Breaker, 20-Amp, 120V, 1-Pole CAFCI, Plug-On Neutral

 

Mine:

 

   

[Rougarou]

So you already have GFI breakers.

 

Easy check, pop the panel, switch out those one of those three breakers with the one popping, plug your heater in again.  If the breaker pops again, something in the circuit, if the breaker doesn't pop, bad breaker.

 

Now, kill power to all breakers, uno by uno turn them on and label your damn box.  Also, get a label maker and put the corresponding breaker number on it (edit: each outlet and switch) Remove all doubt as what outlet is on what circuit.  Yes, it takes time.

[terryofperry]

1 hour ago, Scott9999 said:

I was contrasting the overall quality of the job and components, i.e. the failed GFI's were GFI receptacles.  The receptacle that's having the problem is a standard 20A receptacle, on a GFI controlled, 20A breaker circuit, to a bedroom.   That's my target for replacement.   I haven't tested every receptacle recently, but I believe this heater blows the breaker on any receptacle in the circuit, with only the heater on the circuit.  It works fine on the next bedroom's, separate circuit.  Ergo, it's the breaker, or the line is buggered somewhere between the breaker and first receptacle.

 

I have to figure out WHAT that breaker is, before I can even find the part.  I don't want to do this twice, i.e. shut down power, test the breaker (maybe pull it to test it, maybe not), then go buy the part and do it all again.   I was trying to describe it, lol, because I've never seen one of these, which is part of my reason for procrastination.  Well, I think this is it (but mine has the number 1628 imprinted on it, this does not, and there seem to be multiple versions out there, some with a yellow GFI test tab; this an mine have a white one, so, WTH, I don't know - procrastination continues ....). 

 

(Anyhow, what was this thread about? 🙄😖)  

 

Square D - HOM120PCAFIC Homeline Circuit Breaker, 20-Amp, 120V, 1-Pole CAFCI, Plug-On Neutral

 

Mine:

 

   

Scott, the breaker you reference from Home Depot is a Square D Homeline AFCI (Arc Fault) breaker that utilizes a plug on neutral (not a pigtail).

 

This is a Square D Homeline GFCI (Ground Fault)  breaker with a pigtail (in this case, yellow test button).

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-20-Amp-Single-Pole-GFCI-Circuit-Breaker-HOM120GFICP/100002959

 

This is a Square D Homeline combination AFCI/GFCI (Arc Fault/Ground Fault) breaker with a pigtail (in this case, red test button).

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Square-D-Homeline-20-Amp-Single-Pole-Dual-Function-CAFCI-and-GFCI-Circuit-Breaker-HOM120DFC/204844652

 

I don't know if your panel accepts plug on neutral breakers or pigtails without seeing it.

 

Terry