Support your right to repair in Congress

[Bernie]

I received this email from the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) today.

Since we had some discussions about repair manuals from BMW Motorrad of NA, I thought this email maybe of some interest to some of you.

 

 

As motorcycling technology continues to advance, your ability to repair your own motorcycle or seek out an independent mechanic may get restricted as manufacturers do not make repair information or parts available for purchase.  Consumers are facing this problem with almost every product they own, from their phone, to their tractor and for AMA members, their motorcycles and ATVs. This issue is collectively known as "Right to Repair" and put in the simplest terms, right to repair is the idea that when you buy something, you have the right to repair it or seek an independent repair shop to do the work and as part of that the manufacturers must make the parts and information needed for these repairs available to the public for a fair and reasonable price.  Fortunately there is a bill in the U.S. House of Representatives, the REPAIR Act (Right to Equitable and Professional Auto Industry Repair), H.R. 6570, that would ensure that motorcyclists and independent repair shops have access to the information, tools, and parts needed to repair motorcycles.  The AMA is asking you to tell your Representative to co-sponsor this bi-partisan bill and protect your right to repair.  Support your right to repair in Congress If you would like to learn more about Right to Repair, you can read the Federal Trade Commission Report to Congress from May 2021 "Nixing the Fix" which details the ways some manufacturers limit repairs by consumers.

American Motorcyclist Association 13515 Yarmouth Dr Pickerington, OH 43147 Email: grassroots@ama-cycle.org www.AmericanMotorcyclist.com Phone: (800) AMA-JOIN (800) 262-5646 (614) 856-1900

[RadioFlyer]

Good stuff. It is unfortunate that the big BMW clubs aren't supporting their members who are negatively impacted by BMW's decision to discontinue service manuals.

[John Ranalletta]

52 minutes ago, Bernie said:

I received this email from the American Motorcyclist Association (AMA) today.

Since we had some discussions about repair manuals from BMW Motorrad of NA, I thought this email maybe of some interest to some of you.

 

 

As motorcycling technology continues to advance, your ability to repair your own motorcycle or seek out an independent mechanic may get restricted as manufacturers do not make repair information or parts available for purchase.  Consumers are facing this problem with almost every product they own, from their phone, to their tractor and for AMA members, their motorcycles and ATVs. This issue is collectively known as "Right to Repair" and put in the simplest terms, right to repair is the idea that when you buy something, you have the right to repair it or seek an independent repair shop to do the work and as part of that the manufacturers must make the parts and information needed for these repairs available to the public for a fair and reasonable price.  Fortunately there is a bill in the U.S. House of Representatives, the REPAIR Act (Right to Equitable and Professional Auto Industry Repair), H.R. 6570, that would ensure that motorcyclists and independent repair shops have access to the information, tools, and parts needed to repair motorcycles.  The AMA is asking you to tell your Representative to co-sponsor this bi-partisan bill and protect your right to repair.  Support your right to repair in Congress If you would like to learn more about Right to Repair, you can read the Federal Trade Commission Report to Congress from May 2021 "Nixing the Fix" which details the ways some manufacturers limit repairs by consumers.

American Motorcyclist Association 13515 Yarmouth Dr Pickerington, OH 43147 Email: grassroots@ama-cycle.org www.AmericanMotorcyclist.com Phone: (800) AMA-JOIN (800) 262-5646 (614) 856-1900

Though his language is often irreverent and NSFW, Louis Rossman is strong champion of right to repair and how manufacturers are campainging ($) and using scare tactics to defeat these initiatives on the state and federal level.

 

Aside from the fear argument mfgrs claim giving away or selling schematics, etc. opens their IP to theft.

 

Farmers are using Torrent to DL hacked diag s/w for their John Deere tractors.
 

 

[AviP]

Signed the petition. Thanks.

[9Mary7]

Me too..... This has been the law in the automotive business for decades, it's about time this is spread to other motorized vehicles.

[BrianT]

/signed

[Rougarou]

Done!!

[Rinkydink]

Signed and added my $.02

[RogerC60]

I signed it.

[Lowndes]

My son has two 2007 era VW automobiles that he purchased several years back at what he thought were bargain prices from the previous owners.  They were OK for a while, then little things bagan to happen, as one would expect mostly.  These two cars have become a $$$$ living nightmare $$$$.  Can't get rid of them and can't keep them on the road because of repair costs.  ONLY "Certified" VW repair (dealers/stealers) have the software to change anything but a wiper blade.  If you do it yourself the car will not run.  IT IS A LEGAL SCAM in the name of "anti-theft" that allows them to charge whatever they want for the smallest repair or replacement.  AMHIK.

 

SIGNED IT.

 

Thank you, Bernie.  And, The AMA.

[roadscholar]

I've been driving, racing, and restoring German cars for over 50 years, my new rule is I likely won't own another one newer than about 2000 because of the complexity. Fortunately I know a couple great techs that can solve about anything with a laptop and factory program on the '08 Benz and Boxster, without them it def wouldn't be pleasant. I signed the petition.

[Rougarou]

10 hours ago, Lowndes said:

My son has two 2007 era VW automobiles that he purchased several years back at what he thought were bargain prices from the previous owners.  They were OK for a while, then little things bagan to happen, as one would expect mostly.  These two cars have become a $$$$ living nightmare $$$$.  Can't get rid of them and can't keep them on the road because of repair costs.  ONLY "Certified" VW repair (dealers/stealers) have the software to change anything but a wiper blade.  If you do it yourself the car will not run.  IT IS A LEGAL SCAM in the name of "anti-theft" that allows them to charge whatever they want for the smallest repair or replacement.  AMHIK.

 

SIGNED IT.

 

Thank you, Bernie.  And, The AMA.

 

The Pirate Bay should be his friend.  I had Vagcom for my daughters 2003 VW Passat Wagon.

 

On a side note, I had an X3 that I obtained software to change the splash screen that came up when you started the vehicle.  Some lucky new owner had our family popping up everytime they cranked the vehicle,......unless they changed it.  I also would "self update" the GPS data.

 

Anyway, manufacturers have proprietary stuff, I get that, but they also can't expect everyone to utilize their dealerships to do, sometimes and most times, simple maintenance and repairs.

 

 

[John Ranalletta]

12 hours ago, Lowndes said:

My son has two 2007 era VW automobiles that he purchased several years back at what he thought were bargain prices from the previous owners.  They were OK for a while, then little things bagan to happen, as one would expect mostly.  These two cars have become a $$$$ living nightmare $$$$.  Can't get rid of them and can't keep them on the road because of repair costs.  ONLY "Certified" VW repair (dealers/stealers) have the software to change anything but a wiper blade.  If you do it yourself the car will not run.  IT IS A LEGAL SCAM in the name of "anti-theft" that allows them to charge whatever they want for the smallest repair or replacement.  AMHIK.

 

SIGNED IT.

 

Thank you, Bernie.  And, The AMA.

Fortunately, I've not had any issues with my BMW cages ('15 & '17) but several years ago I traded the 335d w/ 140k miles because no independent garage, even the BMW-only repair shop in town would touch the DEF or particulate filter systems.  Any and all work had to be done by the local BMW dealer at outrageously high rates. There is no new car in my future.  Ever.

[John Ranalletta]

12 hours ago, Lowndes said:

My son has two 2007 era VW automobiles that he purchased several years back at what he thought were bargain prices from the previous owners.  They were OK for a while, then little things bagan to happen, as one would expect mostly.  These two cars have become a $$$$ living nightmare $$$$.  Can't get rid of them and can't keep them on the road because of repair costs.  ONLY "Certified" VW repair (dealers/stealers) have the software to change anything but a wiper blade.  If you do it yourself the car will not run.  IT IS A LEGAL SCAM in the name of "anti-theft" that allows them to charge whatever they want for the smallest repair or replacement.  AMHIK.

 

SIGNED IT.

 

Thank you, Bernie.  And, The AMA.

Wonder how the folks who bought the remapped TDIs are doing with service/repairs.

[Skywagon]

Signed

[Lowndes]

2 hours ago, Rougarou said:

 

The Pirate Bay should be his friend.  I had Vagcom for my daughters 2003 VW Passat Wagon.

 

On a side note, I had an X3 that I obtained software to change the splash screen that came up when you started the vehicle.  Some lucky new owner had our family popping up everytime they cranked the vehicle,......unless they changed it.  I also would "self update" the GPS data.

 

Anyway, manufacturers have proprietary stuff, I get that, but they also can't expect everyone to utilize their dealerships to do, sometimes and most times, simple maintenance and repairs.

 

 

 

Richard - We did find an independant (who I won't name here) who was a SAVANT with VW computers and cars.  He Detested and despised (notice I didn't say H*TE) the VW policies and practices, was especially good at getting around them, carged fair prices, great guy.  His business grew so much that he had to move into a much larger building (just him, his wife answering the phone and doing the books, with sometimes a "helper").  It eventually got so busy he had to quit taking new business, and declared his business was "Not open to the public."

[Skywagon]

Dang...the only thing wrong with signing it, it was forwarded to a democrat senator for my area who I absolutely despise (notice I didn't say H*TE).  Now that witch has my email and I bet I get tortured with her send me money to support allowing the border to be open.

[Rougarou]

35 minutes ago, Lowndes said:

 

Richard - We did find an independant (who I won't name here) who was a SAVANT with VW computers and cars.  He Detested and despised (notice I didn't say H*TE) the VW policies and practices, was especially good at getting around them, carged fair prices, great guy.  His business grew so much that he had to move into a much larger building (just him, his wife answering the phone and doing the books, with sometimes a "helper").  It eventually got so busy he had to quit taking new business, and declared his business was "Not open to the public."

 

Good on ya.

 

There's an independent service shop locally that does all German vehicles with reasonable prices.  Anything beyond what I could handle, went to them guys.

 

When the 02 sensors started doing stoopid stuff, one shop said the cats would have to be replaced (which was more than we paid for the car), took it to this nifty place, they ran the codes, and then,.........recommended Meineke for the exhaust work (without charging for the look-see).......Meineke came back and said all that was needed was a flex joint,.......a freakin' flex joint.  'nother shop wanted $2600 the cats and all it came down to was a stoopid flex joint!!!!!!  $200 and I's outta there.

[Lowndes]

Most people are at the total mercy of the mechanic or the tech guy that checks them in at the dealer. If the tech says the rotors are out of spec and have to be replaced, 99% will just say OK rather than ask any questions and risk offending (questioning his integrity) or displaying total unfamiliarity (ignorance) with anything "under the hood", and actually don't even know enough to ask a decent question.  

 

This situation leads to abuse.  Too much temptation to rum the bill up or worse.  We've all heard stories.  

 

Was it Kissinger who said, "Trust but verify."??

 

My mechanic for years who works on everything BUT later VW/BMW/mb will sometimes quietly tell me "don't fix it" when I take him some problem.  And he saves the old parts for me whenhe does fix something.

[John Ranalletta]

29 minutes ago, Lowndes said:

Most people are at the total mercy of the mechanic or the tech guy that checks them in at the dealer. If the tech says the rotors are out of spec and have to be replaced, 99% will just say OK rather than ask any questions and risk offending (questioning his integrity) or displaying total unfamiliarity (ignorance) with anything "under the hood", and actually don't even know enough to ask a decent question.  

 

This situation leads to abuse.  Too much temptation to rum the bill up or worse.  We've all heard stories.  

 

Was it Kissinger who said, "Trust but verify."??

 

My mechanic for years who works on everything BUT later VW/BMW/mb will sometimes quietly tell me "don't fix it" when I take him some problem.  And he saves the old parts for me whenhe does fix something.

At dealerships, the "Service Writers", the people who check you in, inspect the tires, wipers, etc. before sending you to the cashier, are paid on commission.  The more TBA they sell, the more they earn.

Anticipating a long tow, asked my tech to check the brakes. He said, "Likely, the sensor will throw a code during your trip.  Don't worry about it.  Just bring it in when it lights up."

[Skywagon]

Two recent events...took the wifes car in for oil change (cheaper than I can do it) and they told her she needed new tires.  She said she would check with me first.  The Michelin tires that cost a fortune had a whopping 800 miles on them.

 

Took my car in for an oil change (cheaper than I can do it)...was told all my hoses and belts needed to changed for $1200.  How many belts...well there is one for this, one for than, one for something else....Really....all I see is one serpentine belt that I can change if needed in 5 minutes or less.  Two radiator hoses and a couple heater hoses.  I'm not planning on changing anything except the serpentine belt....when I get around to it in a year or two.

[MachineJoe]

signed

[9Mary7]

5 hours ago, Skywagon said:

I'm not planning on changing anything except.....the place you go for oil changes!!

There, I fixed it for ya......... 

[Bernie]

Don’t forget to change your blinker fluid for the 2023 winter version. 😂 

[Rougarou]

6 hours ago, Skywagon said:

Two recent events...took the wifes car in for oil change (cheaper than I can do it) and they told her she needed new tires.  She said she would check with me first.  The Michelin tires that cost a fortune had a whopping 800 miles on them.

 

Took my car in for an oil change (cheaper than I can do it)...was told all my hoses and belts needed to changed for $1200.  How many belts...well there is one for this, one for than, one for something else....Really....all I see is one serpentine belt that I can change if needed in 5 minutes or less.  Two radiator hoses and a couple heater hoses.  I'm not planning on changing anything except the serpentine belt....when I get around to it in a year or two.

 

I just wanna know where you get your oil changed.  Did my daughters two vehicles, Mobil 1 oil and filter, $36 each.  Wifes truck, 6.2l, $42 with Mobile 1,.....all synthetic.

 

If they be a shop like you have around here, I'm all in.

[Skywagon]

Sure Roug....my car calls for 0w20w.  Eight quarts.  Cheapest I see that is about $7.50Qt.  Filter is $12.  Crush washer $2.00.  That's $74. I get my oil and filter changed and tire rotated for $49 at the dealer.  It is discounted some from normal because I am part of what they call the Legend club since I've bought 5 new vehicles from them.  Now changing it home I still have to take it to a recycle place.  Nearest recycle place to me is roughly 25 miles or 50 roundtrip.  Hmm that takes time and gasoline.  So...for me what I am doing is cheaper.  They also fill up the washer fluid if needed.    For me to be less than $49 with the filter/washer, I would have to buy oil at $4.75qt.  Don't know anywhere you can get premium sythetic 0-20 @ that price...just to break even.

 

On the other hand the marine dealer wants $200 to change the oil.  My outboard holds 8qts which I buy from Amazon for $90.  The filter cost about $8.  I do that one myself.  I have free oil disposal at the marina where it is kept. I can change the oil on the boat in 15 minutes, plus attend to other maintenance at the same time. I also change the oil on my bike (and airplane before sold).  For my car...cheaper and easier to have it done.

[Skywagon]

4 hours ago, Bernie said:

Don’t forget to change your blinker fluid for the 2023 winter version

 

Hey Bernie...thanks for the reminder.  I just rotated the air in my tires.  I used my left handed crescent.  I went to the store and got a bucket of steam to clean things up.

[Norm 88]

Signed it!

[RTinNC]

2 hours ago, Skywagon said:

 

Hey Bernie...thanks for the reminder.  I just rotated the air in my tires.  I used my left handed crescent.  I went to the store and got a bucket of steam to clean things up.

Just make sure the crescent wrench is metric!

[Rougarou]

8 hours ago, Skywagon said:

Sure Roug....my car calls for 0w20w.  Eight quarts.  Cheapest I see that is about $7.50Qt.  Filter is $12.  Crush washer $2.00.  That's $74. I get my oil and filter changed and tire rotated for $49 at the dealer.  It is discounted some from normal because I am part of what they call the Legend club since I've bought 5 new vehicles from them.  Now changing it home I still have to take it to a recycle place.  Nearest recycle place to me is roughly 25 miles or 50 roundtrip.  Hmm that takes time and gasoline.  So...for me what I am doing is cheaper.  They also fill up the washer fluid if needed.    For me to be less than $49 with the filter/washer, I would have to buy oil at $4.75qt.  Don't know anywhere you can get premium sythetic 0-20 @ that price...just to break even.

 

On the other hand the marine dealer wants $200 to change the oil.  My outboard holds 8qts which I buy from Amazon for $90.  The filter cost about $8.  I do that one myself.  I have free oil disposal at the marina where it is kept. I can change the oil on the boat in 15 minutes, plus attend to other maintenance at the same time. I also change the oil on my bike (and airplane before sold).  For my car...cheaper and easier to have it done.

 

Good on ya!!!, I'd send my daughters to somebody if they could get it cheeper than what I can do. (five qt fill each)

 

My old '89 blue truck, I still use dino oil, walmart brand-once a year due to the lack of driving.

 

Wife's 2018 6.2 GMC (0/20) is an eight quart fill.  Her previous good truck was that super duty,.....15qt fill(ugh)

 

Never replaced a crush washer, and if I did, that's a $0.near nothing costs in bulk

 

Recyling, I give it all back to mother earth.  Round fence posts, round the barn, round culverts, fire pit,.........not exactly an environmentally friendly person here.

 

I also stock pile the types of oil when I get them on sales, Amazon and Walmart both will periodically get the Mobil one at $15 for five qt jug, buy four, and that's two oil changes for cheep.

[RTinNC]

9 hours ago, Skywagon said:

Sure Roug....my car calls for 0w20w.  Eight quarts.  Cheapest I see that is about $7.50Qt.  Filter is $12.  Crush washer $2.00.  That's $74. I get my oil and filter changed and tire rotated for $49 at the dealer.  It is discounted some from normal because I am part of what they call the Legend club since I've bought 5 new vehicles from them.  Now changing it home I still have to take it to a recycle place.  Nearest recycle place to me is roughly 25 miles or 50 roundtrip.  Hmm that takes time and gasoline.  So...for me what I am doing is cheaper.  They also fill up the washer fluid if needed.    For me to be less than $49 with the filter/washer, I would have to buy oil at $4.75qt.  Don't know anywhere you can get premium sythetic 0-20 @ that price...just to break even.

 

On the other hand the marine dealer wants $200 to change the oil.  My outboard holds 8qts which I buy from Amazon for $90.  The filter cost about $8.  I do that one myself.  I have free oil disposal at the marina where it is kept. I can change the oil on the boat in 15 minutes, plus attend to other maintenance at the same time. I also change the oil on my bike (and airplane before sold).  For my car...cheaper and easier to have it done.

Yup .... I'm right there with ya!   It appears the dealers are using oil changes as a loss leader.  I still will occasionally do my own but just because I like doing it and seeing how it is done.  But these days it's not a saving issue.   And based on other posts seems as though the pricing is consistent.   Both vehicles use premium synthetic and in addition for another $16 they rotate my tires.   Of course  on my Chevy truck my next 3 oil changes and rotations are free as they messed up a recall appointment and I raised a fuss.  Service Manager was very apologetic and said next three are on him.  Pretty sure that is a hard price to beat. 

[RTinNC]

Signed and shared on Facebook !  
 

Thanks for the reminder Bernie. 

[Rougarou]

Here's the response I got

 

Patrick T. McHenry Member of Congress 10th District, North Carolina 2004 Rayburn House Office Building Washington, DC 20515 (202) 225-2576 Fax: (202) 225-0316 mchenry.house.gov Republican Leader, Committee on Financial Services   http://mchenry.house.gov/images/email/letterhead-std.jpg   District Offices: Hickory District Office: 1990 Main Ave SE P.O. Box 1830 Hickory, NC 28603 (828) 327-6100 Fax: (828) 327-8311 Toll Free in NC (800) 477-2576

 

November 29, 2022 Mr. Richard  Rd Walnut Cove, NC 27052-6855 Dear Mr. : Thank you for contacting my office to express your opinion regarding H.R. 6570, the Right to Equitable and Professional Auto Industry Repair (REPAIR) Act.  I appreciate having the benefit of your views. On February 2, 2022, Representative Bobby Rush (D-IL) introduced H.R. 6570 to ensure vehicle owner's access to data regarding their motor vehicle, vehicle repair information, and provide options for vehicle repair, service, and maintenance.  This legislation would prohibit manufacturers from recommending or mandating certain brands or manufacturer of parts, tools, or equipment. H.R. 6570 would require a manufacturer to provide vehicle-generated data to the owner through a standardized access platform. Additionally, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration would be directed to establish guidelines for access to vehicle information through the standardized access platform. H.R. 6570 has been referred to the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, where it awaits action.  While I do not sit on this committee, please know that I will keep your thoughts in mind should this legislation come to the House floor for a vote. Thank you again for contacting my office.  It is an honor to serve as your United States Congressman.  Your suggestions are always welcome, and if ever I may be of assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me.

 

Sincerely, Patrick T. McHenry Member of Congress

[RandyShields]

12 hours ago, Rougarou said:

please know that I will keep your thoughts in mind should this legislation come to the House floor for a vote.

Washington-ese for "thanks for being a constituent, but don't bother me."

[RTinNC]

1 hour ago, RandyShields said:

Washington-ese for "thanks for being a constituent, but don't bother me."

Yeah ... like he's really going to remember YOUR thoughts !  Like it's the only letter he got. 

[Ponch]

On 10/20/2022 at 9:41 AM, Skywagon said:

Two recent events...took the wifes car in for oil change (cheaper than I can do it) and they told her she needed new tires.  She said she would check with me first.  The Michelin tires that cost a fortune had a whopping 800 miles on them.

 

Took my car in for an oil change (cheaper than I can do it)...was told all my hoses and belts needed to changed for $1200.  How many belts...well there is one for this, one for than, one for something else....Really....all I see is one serpentine belt that I can change if needed in 5 minutes or less.  Two radiator hoses and a couple heater hoses.  I'm not planning on changing anything except the serpentine belt....when I get around to it in a year or two.

It's the upsell. Get people in and fleece them. Everyone that comes in for service has a metric in terms of $$ and service managers/writers/mechanics are incentivized to maximize that. I had a power steering pump replaced under warranty and they tried to sell me a PS flush. I was like, if it needs it, shouldn't it be included in the warranty repair, so no. 

[Red]

sent      Thanks for the heads up

[JamesW]

GET A FORD!  Why I mean WHY would anyone want a BMW automobile????  OK, so a BMW will go through a curve faster than my '11 Mustang GT/CS with its solid axle near suspension so frigging what!  I'll eat your lunch in a straight away.  Oh, and my '08 Ford Escape XLT I'll not part with either.  Both vehicles owned since new and still like new.  I might someday go electric but only when it says F-O-R-D on it!   I owned a, new at the time,VW bug ('69) once and it was a great simple car and I still miss it but a present day VW?  No way!

 

Drove my neighbors new high tech wonder Tesla Model Y the other day at his insistence and I wouldn't have one if you gave it to me.  Well, if you gave it to me I would take it so I could sell it.  lol..lol..  You want a great low center of gravity don't waste your bucks on an electric with a thousand pound battery just take the seats out of your present vehicle and put about 4 inches of concrete on the floor then cover with the floor mats and you got it.  One more thought: Li-ion batteries are not here to stay!  Now, a graphene aluminum ion battery might just do it.  So long as it says Ford on it.

 

My thoughts and I'm sticking to them.

[Ponch]

43 minutes ago, JamesW said:

GET A FORD!  Why I mean WHY would anyone want a BMW automobile????  OK, so a BMW will go through a curve faster than my '11 Mustang GT/CS with its solid axle near suspension so frigging what!  I'll eat your lunch in a straight away.  Oh, and my '08 Ford Escape XLT I'll not part with either.  Both vehicles owned since new and still like new.  I might someday go electric but only when it says F-O-R-D on it!   I owned a, new at the time,VW bug ('69) once and it was a great simple car and I still miss it but a present day VW?  No way!

 

Drove my neighbors new high tech wonder Tesla Model Y the other day at his insistence and I wouldn't have one if you gave it to me.  Well, if you gave it to me I would take it so I could sell it.  lol..lol..  You want a great low center of gravity don't waste your bucks on an electric with a thousand pound battery just take the seats out of your present vehicle and put about 4 inches of concrete on the floor then cover with the floor mats and you got it.  One more thought: Li-ion batteries are not here to stay!  Now, a graphene aluminum ion battery might just do it.  So long as it says Ford on it.

 

My thoughts and I'm sticking to them.

I went with this. 

[JamesW]

I'll run ya for titles.....well, on second thought.  lol..lol..

[Ponch]

44 minutes ago, JamesW said:

I'll run ya for titles.....well, on second thought.  lol..lol..

It does OK. I did a dig with a R1250RT and took him up to about 100, where he was catching up, but my car has higher top speed so that wouldn't last long.  

[JamesW]

Does your rig have a turbo?

[Ponch]

On 12/12/2022 at 5:39 PM, JamesW said:

Does your rig have a turbo?

 

No. It's a 392 hemi, naturally aspirated. Rated at 485HP, 475ft/lbs torque. If anything, the guy on the 1250 was slow off the line. 

[9Mary7]

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23846414-nhtsa-letter

[lkraus]

1 hour ago, 9Mary7 said:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23846414-nhtsa-letter

So, NHTSA's position is that because a tool could be used unsafely or maliciously, it cannot be available for legitimate purposes?

 

I'm having trouble thinking of any tool that could never be misused.

 

 

[TSConver]

2 hours ago, lkraus said:

So, NHTSA's position is that because a tool could be used unsafely or maliciously, it cannot be available for legitimate purposes?

 

I'm having trouble thinking of any tool that could never be misused.

 

 

 

Wow, that is insane.  Hammers are used to kill more people in this country every year than long guns.  Yet we can still buy hammers.

[Ponch]

18 minutes ago, TSConver said:

 

Wow, that is insane.  Hammers are used to kill more people in this country every year than long guns.  Yet we can still buy hammers.

If such things were supported by statistics, alcohol and driving would be illegal. 

[TSConver]

1 minute ago, Ponch said:

If such things were supported by statistics, alcohol and driving would be illegal. 

 

They are supported by statistics.  Look at the CDC.  Hammers fall into blunt objects.  This is for 2021 and shows the number for blunt objects which include hammers, 2021 the numbers were a bit lower for blunt objects but in other years it has been higher.  Was just pointing out that anything can be used for bad purposes.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/

[Ponch]

17 minutes ago, TSConver said:

 

They are supported by statistics.  Look at the CDC.  Hammers fall into blunt objects.  This is for 2021 and shows the number for blunt objects which include hammers, 2021 the numbers were a bit lower for blunt objects but in other years it has been higher.  Was just pointing out that anything can be used for bad purposes.

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-weapon-used/

And more folks are killed by drunk drivers than unjustified homicide with firearms. 

[RTinNC]

Maybe I read it wrong but is sounds like they are concerned with misusing the technology i.e. hacking and then manipulating the vehicle in a malicious manner.   Yet another "feature" of all the technology we seem to need these days in our vehicles.  While Technology can be very good and beneficial it can be a negative as well.