AF-XIED 2001 R1100R - Running Issue After Startup

[Eleven]

First post on this site. I’ve received a lot of valuable information from this forum and appreciate any advice or tips. I posted this same information on another site but wanted to improve my chances of solving the problem I’m having.
 

My bike is a 2001 R1100RL with 10k miles. I installed an AF-XIED because of surging. Setting is set at 7. Bike rides much better and the device pretty much eliminated the surging. RPM increased about 1k. Rides really smooth and I want to keep the AF-XIED on the bike. However, the problem I’m having is after startup (hot or cold) the bike runs rough during, what I was told, is open loop (20-90 seconds) - rough idling, sputtering and sometimes it cuts off. It is very repeatable. After it goes into “closed loop”, everything evens out and it settles at a smooth 1050 rpm and runs great.
 

I bought the bike from a friend who parked it for 12 yrs after putting only 5k miles on it but left gas in the tank. I had the HES rewired, replaced the entire fuel delivery system and performed the following: valve clearance adjustment, installed Auto lite spark plug 3923s, 0-250 procedure, new O2 sensor and throttle body sync using a Carbtune (several other things).  There was no change after install of the new O2 sensor so I reinstalled the original one. I’ve even removed the AF-XIED a few times and when the bike is in stock mode, it doesn’t idle rough or sputter at start up but still surges. The rough, open loop phase, only happens when the AF-XIED is hooked up to the bike. Any ideas on what I should try next?  Could this be one of the temperature sensors causing the problem? I was told it could possibly be the intake air temp sensor or it’s wiring causing the issue. 
 

thanks

 

[BABABeemer]

I had the same problem with the AF-XIED on my 2003 R1150RT. The solution for me to eliminate surging was to install a Techlusion. I put the AF-XIED on my 2004 R1150R Rockster and it worked perfectly. Perhaps the AF-XIED is designed for a twin spark machine?

[dirtrider]

Quote

 

First post on this site. I’ve received a lot of valuable information from this forum and appreciate any advice or tips. I posted this same information on another site but wanted to improve my chances of solving the problem I’m having.
 

My bike is a 2001 R1100RL with 10k miles. I installed an AF-XIED because of surging. Setting is set at 7. Bike rides much better and the device pretty much eliminated the surging. RPM increased about 1000k. Rides really smooth and I want to keep the AF-XIED on the bike. However, the problem I’m having is after startup (hot or cold) the bike runs rough during, what I was told, is open loop (20-90 seconds) - rough idling, sputtering and sometimes it cuts off. It is very repeatable. After it goes into “closed loop”, everything evens out and it settles at a smooth 1050 rpm and runs great.
 

I bought the bike from a friend who parked it for 12 yrs after putting only 5k miles on it but left gas in the tank. I had the HES rewired, replaced the entire fuel delivery system and performed the following: valve clearance adjustment, installed Auto lite spark plug 3923s, 0-250 procedure, new O2 sensor and throttle body sync using a Carbtune (several other things).  There was no change after install of the new O2 sensor so I reinstalled the original one. I’ve even removed the AF-XIED a few times and when the bike is in stock mode, it doesn’t idle rough or sputter at start up but still surges. The rough, open loop phase, only happens when the AF-XIED is hooked up to the bike. Any ideas on what I should try next?  Could this be one of the temperature sensors causing the problem? I was told it could possibly be the intake air temp sensor or it’s wiring causing the issue. 

 

Morning   Eleven

 

 

I have heard of others facing similar issues after installing the AF-XIED on some of the earlier 1100 (Ma 2.2) motorcycles. 

 

I don't have an answer for you in regards to the AF-XIED as I usually make the OEM work & typically don't do much with the AF-XIED.

 

I presume that you mean RPM increased  1K (1000 RPM's) not 1000k?

 

First off, what CCP is in your fuse box (this might tell us something about the problem).

 

It doesn't sound like an engine sensor issue as you say it runs/idles OK with AF-XIED removed. 

 

You might try a lower AF-XIED setting like 5 or 6 to see if that makes any difference in the cold running but still adds enough fuel to reduce surging.  From what I have seen the 1100 Ma 2.2 typically runs a little richer per number than the 1150 Ma 2.4 does. (#6 setting on the AF-XIED for the 1100 is closer to #7 setting on the AF-XIED for the 1150). 

 

Personally I would remove the AF-XIED then go back to stock, then try riding that motorcycle with the CCP removed. After removing the CCP  remove fuse #5 for about 15 minutes (that will remove the learned fueling adaptives from the Motronic), then reinstall fuse #5. Then ride for a few days to see how it runs. 

 

In most cases this will reduce or eliminate  the surging enough to ride the motorcycle as normal. If THIS doesn't make a difference or doesn't help enough THEN will need to look into the engine control system (like engine sensors or mechanical).

 

You probably should at some point also check the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor) adjustment to be sure that it is operating within it's proper range from closed throttle to wide open throttle.  

 

Another suggestion is to contact  AF-XIED (    http://www.nightrider.com/    ) to see if they can offer any suggestions on solving the issue related to the poor cold running with the AF-XIED operational.  

 

 

[Eleven]

13 hours ago, Eleven said:

First post on this site. I’ve received a lot of valuable information from this forum and appreciate any advice or tips. I posted this same information on another site but wanted to improve my chances of solving the problem I’m having.
 

My bike is a 2001 R1100RL with 10k miles. I installed an AF-XIED because of surging. Setting is set at 7. Bike rides much better and the device pretty much eliminated the surging. RPM increased about 1000k. Rides really smooth and I want to keep the AF-XIED on the bike. However, the problem I’m having is after startup (hot or cold) the bike runs rough during, what I was told, is open loop (20-90 seconds) - rough idling, sputtering and sometimes it cuts off. It is very repeatable. After it goes into “closed loop”, everything evens out and it settles at a smooth 1050 rpm and runs great.
 

I bought the bike from a friend who parked it for 12 yrs after putting only 5k miles on it but left gas in the tank. I had the HES rewired, replaced the entire fuel delivery system and performed the following: valve clearance adjustment, installed Auto lite spark plug 3923s, 0-250 procedure, new O2 sensor and throttle body sync using a Carbtune (several other things).  There was no change after install of the new O2 sensor so I reinstalled the original one. I’ve even removed the AF-XIED a few times and when the bike is in stock mode, it doesn’t idle rough or sputter at start up but still surges. The rough, open loop phase, only happens when the AF-XIED is hooked up to the bike. Any ideas on what I should try next?  Could this be one of the temperature sensors causing the problem? I was told it could possibly be the intake air temp sensor or it’s wiring causing the issue. 
 

thanks

 

Good morning,

 

I have tried the TPS setting between the range of 340 - 397 to see if the problem at start up would improve but no luck. I have not checked the TPS range from closed to open throttle but definitely can do that. 
 

The CCP in this bike is 30 87 87a. I have received a lot of help from a friend dealing with this bike and he told me about the CCP removal. I have removed it and pulled fuse #5 for 10 mins. It ran great and pretty much surge free with the CCP out; but, it caused soot to leak out of the exhaust. Also, there was a drop in gas mileage. I ran it with the CCP out for a few tanks of gas and then put it back in. Maybe if I ran it longer the gas mileage and soot issue would improve?  

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

Good morning,

 

I have tried the TPS setting between the range of 340 - 397 to see if the problem at start up would improve but no luck. I have not checked the TPS range from closed to open throttle but definitely can do that. 
 

The CCP in this bike is 30 87 87a. I have received a lot of help from a friend dealing with this bike and he told me about the CCP removal. I have removed it and pulled fuse #5 for 10 mins. It ran great and pretty much surge free with the CCP out; but, it caused soot to leak out of the exhaust. Also, there was a drop in gas mileage. I ran it with the CCP out for a few tanks of gas and then put it back in. Maybe if I ran it longer the gas mileage and soot issue would improve?  

Morning   Eleven

 

I still think the CCP removal is the way to go on the early 1100 Ma 2.2 bikes. (that is how I used to run most of my 1100 Ma 2.2 BMW boxer bikes)

 

That just reverts it to open loop (European) fuel mapping, that is pretty decent fueling mapping at all except idle. (shouldn't be too rich or get soot at cruising speeds). 

 

BUT, going with no CCP does richen the idle fueling as it ignores the o2 sensor so it is designed to use an idle trim potentiometer to adjust or lean out the idle fueling. 

 

Personally I would just ride it with no CCP & live with the rich idle. (probably have to set the idle RPM down a little)

 

OR, if you feel like working at it a bit then  buy or build an idle trim pot (BMW calls it an Idle Control Valve) the wiring for it's install is already on the L/H side of your motorcycle. Then keep trimming (adjusting) leaning out the idle fueling until the surging returns then go back in the rich direction until you can live with it.

 

It is a very fine line between setting the idle just rich enough to cover up the light throttle surging & being too rich at idle. It's that slightly over-rich idle that carries up "just enough" into the light throttle range to remove the light throttle surging. If you get it right you can have decent fuel economy but till remove most of the light throttle surging.  

 

If you want to play with removing the CCP then adding an idle control valve (Idle Trim Pot) just put__     bosch 0280101008    __ in an E-Bay the search box. Or you can make your own using a 10 turn 1K potentiometer.

 

Thing is, all the USA 1100 bikes came with a closed loop o2 sensor systems so the  idle control valve (Idle Trim Pot) was basically used on non US European emission) 1100 motorcycles so not many Bosch 0280101008 trim pots available IN the USA for sale. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Eleven]

DR,

 

Appreciate the information. I tried the AF-XIED on setting 5 and got the same result.
 

I have a few questions if you don’t mind. I am not close to being a mechanic but can follow directions. Are there instructional videos or information on locating the idle control valve wiring on the left side, installing the Idle control valve and  adjusting it?   Also, if I run without the CCP and with a properly adjusted idle control valve, is it the same setup as the European models or would it be slightly different because I have a catalytic converter?  
 

thank you

[dirtrider]

13 hours ago, Eleven said:

DR,

 

Appreciate the information. I tried the AF-XIED on setting 5 and got the same result.
 

I have a few questions if you don’t mind. I am not close to being a mechanic but can follow directions. Are there instructional videos or information on locating the idle control valve wiring on the left side, installing the Idle control valve and  adjusting it?   Also, if I run without the CCP and with a properly adjusted idle control valve, is it the same setup as the European models or would it be slightly different because I have a catalytic converter?  
 

thank you

Morning Eleven

 

The idle control valve wiring is a 3 terminal connector  on the left side (about mid motorcycle). Typically is zip tied to a frame tube.

 

Running with the CCP removed  with a properly adjusted idle control valve (key point here is PROPERLY ADJUSTED), then it would be be the same as the European models that didn't come with a CCP or Cat converter. But that will also still give you a little light throttle surging. The cat has no effect as it is post combustion so only effects what comes out not what goes into the combustion process (as long as the CCP is removed OR the o2 sensor is disconnected) 

 

The idea of using the  idle control valve is to be able to lean the idle fueling out just enough to remove over-richness but still allow it to run rich enough to carry up into the light throttle area to prevent light throttle surging. 

 

As for idle control valve adjustment, to set it correctly for idle emission control it is adjusted with warm running engine using  Co. measurement device. (some European countries had idle Co. emission standards & others didn't, it was usually a Co. of 1.5% +/-.5%). But you really want to run richer than most European emission standards as it needs to be richer to reduce light throttle surging. 

 

The best way to adjust is to start with the idle control valve set to about (5) turns then go (2.5) more turns (in)  then ride the motorcycle for a couple of days, then try adjusting back to the initial (5) turns then add (2.5) turns out.  Once you have the direction to turn then start adjusting in 1/2 turn increments until it just starts to surge again then go back in the richer direction until you can live with it.

 

The idea here is get the idle as lean as possible (will also usually decrease idle RPM) but reduce the surging to a level that you can live with. On some 1100 motorcycles that can be fairly lean & on other 1100 motorcycles it will back to almost as rich as no CCP with no idle control valve. 

 

 

 

[Eleven]

Appreciate all the information and photo. I have removed the AF-XIED and the CCP (pulled fuse #5 for more than 15mins). I will try it again without the CCP and see what the soot is like outside the exhaust as well as gas mileage. I may end up trying the idle control valve. Found one on eBay for about $50. 

 

If I remember correctly, last time I ran it without the CCP the gas light came on at about the 110-115 mile mark and at fill up it typically takes about 3.8 gallons to top it off once the light shows (hwy and in town riding). 
 

I will update this post once I am able to see how it does without the CCP and possibly with an idle control valve installed and adjusted. 
 

Thanks again

[dirtrider]

43 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Appreciate all the information and photo. I have removed the AF-XIED and the CCP (pulled fuse #5 for more than 15mins). I will try it again without the CCP and see what the soot is like outside the exhaust as well as gas mileage. I may end up trying the idle control valve. Found one on eBay for about $50. 

 

If I remember correctly, last time I ran it without the CCP the gas light came on at about the 110-115 mile mark and at fill up it typically takes about 3.8 gallons to top it off once the light shows (hwy and in town riding). 
 

I will update this post once I am able to see how it does without the CCP and possibly with an idle control valve installed and adjusted. 
 

Thanks again

Afternoon Eleven

 

Removing the CCP can effect fuel mileage but pretty well only at very low throttle openings, mainly at idle.

 

 Should effect (lower) the riding speed fuel mileage less than #7 setting on the AF-XIED.

 

One thing that makes removing the CCP use more fuel at stop & go riding is removing the CCP richens the idle, that by itself doesn't make a big difference but that richer idle increases the idle RPM & that has a larger effect on stop & go fuel economy. 

 

The other thing to keep in mind is a plugging or partially plugged air filter. With the the CCP in place & the o2 sensor active then the closed loop fueling will compensate for reduced air flow of a restricted air filter. 

 

When you remove the CCP the o2 sensor no longer works so no closed loop operation, in this case a restricted air filter can significantly lower fuel mileage.   (on the BMW paper air filters, they can look clean & even be clean, but if a lot of water was pulled through the paper element it can close the paper pores & restrict air flow.  

[Eleven]

Good to know information. I actually have a new air filter so that could be something I try if the mileage seems really low when compared to before. I replaced the air filter about 18 months ago (5000 miles on the filter) but I’ve had the motorcycle at idle, with fans on it, a lot while working on TB syncs, TPS adjustments, etc. Not sure if that would cause water to get to the air filter. 

Thanks

 

[Hosstage]

2 hours ago, Eleven said:

Good to know information. I actually have a new air filter so that could be something I try if the mileage seems really low when compared to before. I replaced the air filter about 18 months ago (5000 miles on the filter) but I’ve had the motorcycle at idle, with fans on it, a lot while working on TB syncs, TPS adjustments, etc. Not sure if that would cause water to get to the air filter. 

Thanks

 

Maybe not water, but they may have raised a lot of dust.

[Eleven]

dirtrider

 

Is the connector for the idle control valve on the right side, foot brake side, or the left side of the MC?  Based on your photo showing one in an earlier post, I think I have located it on the right side. 
 

I ordered a used idle control valve but it will be about 3 weeks before it arrives. CCP removed and TPS set at 385 mV. Smooth riding so far, just like before when my friend suggested removing the CCP. Rides as good,  if not better, than when the AF-XIED was installed. I think I am pretty much done with the AF-XIED. It just isn’t going to work on my R1100R because of the idle issue but it is a good product.  
 

No problems at idle with the CCP removed but seeing soot at the exhaust. I rode it twice and the first time there was a good amount of exhaust soot but the second time not so much. If the gas mileage suffers through several tanks of gas I plan to try the idle control valve. 
 

I enjoy learning about these bikes and appreciate all the input. 

 

[dirtrider]

25 minutes ago, Eleven said:

dirtrider

 

Is the connector for the idle control valve on the right side, foot brake side, or the left side of the MC?  Based on your photo showing one in an earlier post, I think I have located it on the right side. 
 

I ordered a used idle control valve but it will be about 3 weeks before it arrives. CCP removed and TPS set at 385 mV. Smooth riding so far, just like before when my friend suggested removing the CCP. Rides as good,  if not better, than when the AF-XIED was installed. I think I am pretty much done with the AF-XIED. It just isn’t going to work on my R1100R because of the idle issue but it is a good product.  
 

No problems at idle with the CCP removed but seeing soot at the exhaust. I rode it twice and the first time there was a good amount of exhaust soot but the second time not so much. If the gas mileage suffers through several tanks of gas I plan to try the idle control valve. 
 

I enjoy learning about these bikes and appreciate all the input. 

 

Afternoon Eleven

 

Left hand (shifter) side. 

 

 

[King Herald]

On 8/20/2022 at 6:24 PM, Eleven said:

dirtrider

 

Is the connector for the idle control valve on the right side, foot brake side, or the left side of the MC?  Based on your photo showing one in an earlier post, I think I have located it on the right side. 

 

 

My '97 1100r is a UK model and my idle pot was mounted on the right side.  There is a metal tab that a rubber holder slips over. 

Mine doesn't have a cat, or an O2 sensor. There are so many variations on these bikes from different countries and regions. 
 

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, King Herald said:

 

My '97 1100r is a UK model and my idle pot was mounted on the right side.  There is a metal tab that a rubber holder slips over. 

Mine doesn't have a cat, or an O2 sensor. There are so many variations on these bikes from different countries and regions. 
 

Morning  King Herald

 

That is a good point, I have seen the idle control valve mounted on the right side on the 1100R & RS.  

 

The problem is, the 1100 bikes in most other countries came with an idle control valve. No OEM, US emission  legal,  1100 bikes entered the U.S with an idle control valve as they all came with an o2 sensor & emission evaporator canister (50 state legal). So all the 1100RT's I have seen were either converted by someone, or were brought into the US as a gray market import were they were  (should have been adapted)  for US emission requirements. 

 

I have heard of some US solders bringing back European BMW 1100 bikes & simply importing them by by-passing the import restrictions so supposedly they didn't go through the import emission requirement/update checks (I haven't seen one of those, or if I have I didn't know it).   

 

 

[Eleven]

Thanks dirtrider and King Herald,

 

This is what I have on my bike regarding available connections for a ICV. 

[Eleven]

[dirtrider]

18 minutes ago, Eleven said:

 

Evening Eleven

 

It would be the 3 terminal one shown. 

[Eleven]

dirtrider,

 

Good deal….I am still waiting on the ICV. On an 1100 what would be considered decent MPG running without a CCP but with a properly adjusted ICV? Without the CCP, currently, I’m getting approximately 29-30 mph with excessive soot on the exhaust. But, it rides really well/smooth. 

Thanks

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, Eleven said:

dirtrider,

 

Good deal….I am still waiting on the ICV. On an 1100 what would be considered decent MPG running without a CCP but with a properly adjusted ICV? Without the CCP, currently, I’m getting approximately 29-30 mph with excessive soot on the exhaust. But, it rides really well/smooth. 

Thanks

Evening Eleven

 

Difficult to tell on the mileage as it depends a lot on riding situations. (no CCP usually/mostly effects the low throttle riding mileage)

 

About all you can  do is install the Idle Control Valve then keep leaning the low throttle fueling until you get your surging back then richen it back a little then see what your fuel mileage is.   

[Eleven]

dirtrider

 

Appreciate all the shared knowledge. You are familiar with 1100 (Ma 2.2) issues at idle with an installed AF-XIED - are you aware of any of the same type issues with the LC-2 Wideband installed on the R1100R?  
 

I am still waiting on delivery of the idle control valve and hope it works but just thinking ahead. Thanks 

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, Eleven said:

dirtrider

 

Appreciate all the shared knowledge. You are familiar with 1100 (Ma 2.2) issues at idle with an installed AF-XIED - are you aware of any of the same type issues with the LC-2 Wideband installed on the R1100R?  
 

I am still waiting on delivery of the idle control valve and hope it works but just thinking ahead. Thanks 

Evening  Eleven

 

I'm not personally familiar with the LC-2 on the 1100 Ma 2.2, I know a couple of riders that were using them on the 1150 2.4 system & had it working pretty good.

 

The Ma 2.2 is pretty crude so I'm not sure how much tunability it will allow you. 

 

 

[Eleven]

Oh well, it’ll be a while before I am able to try the idle control valve. The one I just received doesn’t allow adjustments. The screw seems to be stripped. Turn it ccw or cw and you never get to a stopping point in either direction.  I’ll try to locate another one and follow up when I’m able to do the adjustments. 

[Eleven]

Hey Dirtrider,

 

When dealing with the idle control valve, does an increase in voltage lean or richen the fuel at idle? The used ICV I received doesn’t have stopping points ccw or cw, but I was able to get a k ohms reading of 0 - 1.048 on the potentiometer.  CCW turn sends the reading from min to max voltage. 
 

I am not sure if this ICV is functional (I have no experience with ICVs) but I was gonna try it. I plan to use your previous directions in this thread to identify which direction to go and set it at an acceptable point but was curious about the voltage. 

[dirtrider]

49 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Hey Dirtrider,

 

When dealing with the idle control valve, does an increase in voltage lean or richen the fuel at idle? The used ICV I received doesn’t have stopping points ccw or cw, but I was able to get a k ohms reading of 0 - 1.048 on the potentiometer.  CCW turn sends the reading from min to max voltage. 
 

I am not sure if this ICV is functional (I have no experience with ICVs) but I was gonna try it. I plan to use your previous directions in this thread to identify which direction to go and set it at an acceptable point but was curious about the voltage. 

Afternoon Eleven

 

Unplugged (infinite resistance or 0 voltage) is full rich, I don't have my old ICV data available where I am at right now but if I remember correctly turning the screw IN makes it richer.   

 

Start at about mid resistance, or mid voltage range, (or count the number of  turns from  0 - 1.048 then divide that in half (or about 500 K ohms) then start  the engine, allow it to warm (or better yet ride it a little) then turn the screw in 3-4 turns. If the idle RPM's increase then that  is the rich direction. (usually about 50-150 RPM idle difference between mid point & full rich.    

 

BMW gives no starting point or ideal number as the proper setting is the hot-engine-idle exhaust CO content for the country tested in (usually around 0.5%) .  You want to be richer than that to remove light throttle surging.

[Eleven]

Got it…thanks a lot. 14 turns from 0-1.048. I’m gonna try what you said. Center mass volt reading is 0.524 k ohms. 

[Eleven]

dirtrider,

 

I am working on finding the right Idle Control Valve (ICV) setting with the CCP out.  Currently I am just under the halfway point on the RICH side (@ 6 turns out of 14; 0=full rich/14=lean). Moved to the rich side and test riding and adjusting up, towards lean, in 1/2 turns to find the best setting. 
 

It’s going good. I have 91 non-ethanol in the tank right now but sometimes use 93 premium. Once I get a good setting on the ICV where it will remain long term, with the non-ethanol, should I expect a noticeable increase in surging if I run 93 premium?

 

 Thanks 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Eleven said:

dirtrider,

 

I am working on finding the right Idle Control Valve (ICV) setting with the CCP out.  Currently I am just under the halfway point on the RICH side (@ 6 turns out of 14; 0=full rich/14=lean). Moved to the rich side and test riding and adjusting up, towards lean, in 1/2 turns to find the best setting. 
 

It’s going good. I have 91 non-ethanol in the tank right now but sometimes use 93 premium. Once I get a good setting on the ICV where it will remain long term, with the non-ethanol, should I expect a noticeable increase in surging if I run 93 premium?

 

 Thanks 

Evening  Eleven

 

Using any fuel with 10% alcohol in it should increase the surging slightly as without an operational o2 sensor is will run slightly leaner on the E-10 gasoline.   How much it will be noticeable I can't say.  

[Eleven]

dirtrider,

 

Follow up/Update:

 

Its been a while since my last post on this. I have been running the R1100R at different Idle Control Valve (ICV) settings.  Didn’t ride a whole lot during certain months.  
 

The ICV’s voltage range is 0 - 1048. CW turn is rich (voltage decrease) and rpms increase. CCW turn is lean (voltage increase) and rpms decrease.
 

No matter if I run it on the lean side or rich side I have soot outside the exhaust. Sometimes heavy and sometimes light. I’ve found the best setting for this bike is around mid range which is .524 voltage. It runs great at all of the settings with (minor) surging on the leaner side and pretty much no surging on the richer side. Also, with the ICV connected the soot is a lot less than without it. 
 

I haven’t taken a long trip so the mpg are based on a mixture of in town/hwy miles. MPG range from 30-34 but I’m sure if I rode mostly hwy it would be a lot better. 
 

I like this setup (no CCP with ICV installed ) and appreciate all the help from everyone that contributed. 
 

Have a good one

 

[King Herald]

19 hours ago, Eleven said:

dirtrider,

 

Follow up/Update:

 

Its been a while since my last post on this. I have been running the R1100R at different Idle Control Valve (ICV) settings.  Didn’t ride a whole lot during certain months.  
 

The ICV’s voltage range is 0 - 1048. CW turn is rich (voltage decrease) and rpms increase. CCW turn is lean (voltage increase) and rpms decrease.
 

No matter if I run it on the lean side or rich side I have soot outside the exhaust. Sometimes heavy and sometimes light. I’ve found the best setting for this bike is around mid range which is .524 voltage. It runs great at all of the settings with (minor) surging on the leaner side and pretty much no surging on the richer side. Also, with the ICV connected the soot is a lot less than without it. 
 

I haven’t taken a long trip so the mpg are based on a mixture of in town/hwy miles. MPG range from 30-34 but I’m sure if I rode mostly hwy it would be a lot better. 
 

I like this setup (no CCP with ICV installed ) and appreciate all the help from everyone that contributed. 
 

Have a good one

 

 

My U.K. model bike came with the idle pot as standard, and was fitted with the beige cat code plug that connects 87a and 30, which apparently tells the Motronic to look for the idle pot. 

 

But it always had awful surging.

 

I adjusted the idle pot endless times, which made no difference to the surge.

 

I tried removing the CCP, which cured the surging, made it great for riding around town etc, but it made it run rich across the whole range, and the motor response was slow and slack above about 2000rpm.

 

After several years of playing with settings and putting up with the surge  I experimented with cat code plugs making my own 3 point jumper up and trying different connections. 

 

I eventually ended up with the setup your bike started with, 80 87a and 30, which is for  bikes with an O2 sensor, which mine doesn't have. That got rid of the surging totally, but without the slow and sluggish ride at higher rpm that no CCP at all gives me. I have no idea how or why it works so well, it just does. 

 

Apparently there are multiple combinations inside the Motronic, depending on the region or country, or market the bike was built for. CCP does different things depending on which version you have. 

This is a pic put together by DR several years ago, yet famous across the world. 

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, King Herald said:

I eventually ended up with the setup your bike started with, 80 87a and 30, which is for  bikes with an O2 sensor, which mine doesn't have. That got rid of the surging totally, but without the slow and sluggish ride at higher rpm that no CCP at all gives me. I have no idea how or why it works so well, it just does. 

 

Morning King Herald

 

There is no pin 80,  did you mean 87?

 

On the 1100 (Ma 2.2)  pin 87 open tells the Motronic to use the Idle Trim Pot. 

 

Any CCP combination that includes Pin 87 to 30  tells the Motronic NOT to use the Idle Trim Pot input.

 

So with no Idle Trim Pot present & pin 87 open  it goes somewhat rich at idle through just above the idle range but that doesn't carry up very far past light throttle.  It's that somewhat rich idle that carries up into the light throttle area that reduces the light throttle surging.

 

The Idle Trim Pot  (Idle Control Valve) was used for non Catalytic Converter equipped Ma 2.2 motorcycles to set/adjust the IDLE Co. output (in mostly European countries) adjusting to meet the existing idle Co. regulations.  At the time (BMW 1100 era) the only thing emission-wise that was easily measured was the IDLE Co. output.  In the USA California required emission compliance throughout the entire operating range so BMW added a catalytic converter to all 1100 motorcycles sent to the USA  as they didn't have a Ca. specific model. 

 

Note: this is only for the 1100 Ma 2.2, not the later 1150 Ma 2.4 systems.

[King Herald]

21 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning King Herald

 

There is no pin 80,  did you mean 87?

 

On the 1100 (Ma 2.2)  pin 87 open tells the Motronic to use the Idle Trim Pot. 

 

Any CCP combination that includes Pin 87 to 30  tells the Motronic NOT to use the Idle Trim Pot input.

 

So with no Idle Trim Pot present & pin 87 open  it goes somewhat rich at idle through just above the idle range but that doesn't carry up very far past light throttle.  It's that somewhat rich idle that carries up into the light throttle area that reduces the light throttle surging.

 

The Idle Trim Pot  (Idle Control Valve) was used for non Catalytic Converter equipped Ma 2.2 motorcycles to set/adjust the IDLE Co. output (in mostly European countries) adjusting to meet the existing idle Co. regulations.  At the time (BMW 1100 era) the only thing emission-wise that was easily measured was the IDLE Co. output.  In the USA California required emission compliance throughout the entire operating range so BMW added a catalytic converter to all 1100 motorcycles sent to the USA  as they didn't have a Ca. specific model. 

 

Note: this is only for the 1100 Ma 2.2, not the later 1150 Ma 2.4 systems.

 

Morning DR,

Yes, it was a finger fumble, I did mean 87, 87a & 30, basically the pink CCP.  I think it's just a quirk of the Motronic that it works on my model bike. 

 

With no CCP in it works beautifully smooth at low rpm and around town, but the richness seemed to carry on through the rev range, giving a noticeable hesitation when the throttle was opened quickly at higher rpm. 

 

I think I heard that somewhere, possibly from yourself, that connecting 87 to 30 does something to the timing. 30 is basically ground isn't it?
 

It's transformed my bike, so smooth around town now, and still runs great in the highway. 

[JamesW]

I got smart a couple years ago after running with an Innovate Motor Sports LC2 which is just a sophisticated device that performs the same function as an AFXIED and just removed the CCP and virtually all my problems were over.  Then I removed that boat anchor of a muffler/cat converter and installed a Dominator muffler which cut the back pressure and the bike runs perfectly.  Maybe a little noisy and Harley like but I like it.  DirtRider was years ahead of me.  Actually, when I bought the bike in 2012 I did remove the CCP and installed a CO potentiometer but was unable to adjust idle AFR in fact for some reason overall performance wasn't great so I reinstalled the CCP jumper and went with the LC2 which was a mistake when all I had to do was leave the CCP jumper cut and remove my CO potentiometer.  I think idle AFR is a bit rich but that's easy to live with.  Bike reminds me of an airhead or two I used to know and that's not a bad thing, imo.

[dirtrider]

On 5/30/2023 at 4:56 AM, King Herald said:

 

Morning DR,

Yes, it was a finger fumble, I did mean 87, 87a & 30, basically the pink CCP.  I think it's just a quirk of the Motronic that it works on my model bike. 

 

With no CCP in it works beautifully smooth at low rpm and around town, but the richness seemed to carry on through the rev range, giving a noticeable hesitation when the throttle was opened quickly at higher rpm. 

 

I think I heard that somewhere, possibly from yourself, that connecting 87 to 30 does something to the timing. 30 is basically ground isn't it?

Morning King Herald

 

Yes, (30) is the low returning to the Motronic (could be considered sort of an isolated ground)

 

On the 1150 Ma 2.4 the 87a does seem to effect higher RPM ignition timing but on the 1100 if it does it isn't noticeable while riding.

 

The removal of the CCP on the 1100 Ma 2.2 (at least on USA motorcycles) does make them go a little richer at idle & just above idle but by design that is only for using an adjustable idle Co. pot for meeting European (or other non-cat county) idle Co. emissions.  Anything above idle (and above  high idle) is controlled by the fueling map & engine sensors. 

 

Without a CCP doesn't go as rich as #8 on the AFXiED & riders in the US just love the AFXiED set on #7 or #8 as it takes most of not all the surging out & improves mid throttle throttle-up. 

 

What I don't know is if the U.K. Motronic is different, but even if it is, I seriously doubt BMW would put a no-CCP fueling map in it that would run too rich in the mid/upper ranges, especially if rich enough to cause an acceleration problem. 

 

 

[jacksdad63]

I'm in the UK, my 1998 1100RT doesn't have a sensor in the exhaust system but I'm told it has a catalyst exhaust: my 2002 Kawasaki ZZR1200 has catalyst cans but no O2 sensors etc, the KLEEN system.

In DR's image, do you just connect together the numbered pins with jumper cables? they are standard relay numbers so I don't understand  

My bike has the idle pot/potentiometer fitted as standard, as shown. It doesn't seem to be working! I've just turned the adjuster in 15 turns, and it didn't bottom out then...I just turned it back to where I started. There's no resistance at all on the screw. 

I've rebuilt and set the throttle bodies and TPS, the Carbtune Pro readings suggest its now spot on correct, but its still missing and backfiring a tiny amount when I set off from idle. 

If the idle pot is broken, should I disconnect it, and/or bridge the wiring plug connectors?

Thanks guys!      

 

Update: I've just disconnected this device...made zero difference to idling, or revving the engine in neutral. Haven't tried riding without it though!

[dirtrider]

28 minutes ago, jacksdad63 said:

I'm in the UK, my 1998 1100RT doesn't have a sensor in the exhaust system but I'm told it has a catalyst exhaust: my 2002 Kawasaki ZZR1200 has catalyst cans but no O2 sensors etc, the KLEEN system.

In DR's image, do you just connect together the numbered pins with jumper cables? they are standard relay numbers so I don't understand  

My bike has the idle pot/potentiometer fitted as standard, as shown. It doesn't seem to be working! I've just turned the adjuster in 15 turns, and it didn't bottom out then...I just turned it back to where I started. There's no resistance at all on the screw. 

I've rebuilt and set the throttle bodies and TPS, the Carbtune Pro readings suggest its now spot on correct, but its still missing and backfiring a tiny amount when I set off from idle. 

If the idle pot is broken, should I disconnect it, and/or bridge the wiring plug connectors?

Thanks guys!      

 

Update: I've just disconnected this device...made zero difference to idling, or revving the engine in neutral. Haven't tried riding without it though!

Morning jacksdad63

 

On the BMW 1100, if you have a Cat you have an o2 sensor.  The o2 sensor is what makes the Cat work. 

 

That device you show is the Idle Trim Pot (Idle Control Valve), try unplugging it then remove #5 fuse for about 20 minutes, then reinstall fuse #5.

 

Then go ride the motorcycle (that will eliminate the Idle control valve) & probably give you a higher idle speed as it richens the idle fueling plus that richer fueling goes just into the light throttle surging range.  

[jacksdad63]

Thanks DR, I know its the idle pot, but why can I just unplug it, and why does the adjuster screw turn non stop in either direction? I'm thinking its broken! 

I'll leave it unplugged and do the fuse reset, then should I try riding without reconnecting?

[dirtrider]

28 minutes ago, jacksdad63 said:

Thanks DR, I know its the idle pot, but why can I just unplug it, and why does the adjuster screw turn non stop in either direction? I'm thinking its broken! 

I'll leave it unplugged and do the fuse reset, then should I try riding without reconnecting?

Morning jacksdad63

 

It very well might be broken, I think it is something like 10 turns full rich to full lean. I usually just center the screw then adjust from there.

 

The Idle Trim Pot adjusts to full rich & that is the same as disconnecting it, so it doesn't run better with it disconnected then there is something else wrong.  

 

 

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning jacksdad63

 

It very well might be broken, I think it is something like 10 turns full rich to full lean. I usually just center the screw then adjust from there.

 

The Idle Trim Pot adjusts to full rich & that is the same as disconnecting it, so it doesn't run better with it disconnected then there is something else wrong. 

 

 Turning the screw clockwise is the  rich direction  (that decreases voltage output on the Idle Control Valve) 

 

 

 

Morning jacksdad63

 

It very well might be broken, I think it is something like 10 turns full rich to full lean. I usually just center the screw then adjust from there.

 

The Idle Trim Pot adjusts to full rich & that is the same as disconnecting it, so it doesn't run better with it disconnected then there is something else wrong. 

 

 Turning the screw clockwise is the  rich direction  (that decreases voltage output on the Idle Control Valve) 

[Eleven]

Jacksdad63,

 

I think the ICV is supposed to turn CW and CCW with no stopping point….mine does. If you hook up a voltage meter, and the ICV is working properly, you can dial it in to mid range which is a good starting point based on DR’s advice to me months ago.  That is how I adjusted mine.   Use the volt meter on the two rightside pins. 

[jacksdad63]

Thanks again for the comments, I've just done the #5 fuse reset, also did a fault code test with my analog meter, just got 1133 so looks good. I then tried the bike without the idle pot connected: runs so much better!  

I've started up the bike from cold and its idling very well, again minus the idle pot, just running a little fast on idle. Hopefully I can get it down a bit. Here's how I connect a meter to components that need to be plugged in, to test: doesn't damage the cables or seals etc, and gives me somewhere to connect the leads 

 

[jacksdad63]

I've followed the comments above, thanks everyone. pins 2 & 3 are 'live', Green/Yellow and White/Black. I turned the screw and finally got a reading! It goes from 0V to 4.75V, but will continue to turn in both directions, outside the potentiometer range. I'm going to set mine at 2.20V, leave it without power overnight, then try from cold once again. 

Getting somewhere now!  

[King Herald]

20 hours ago, jacksdad63 said:

I'm in the UK, my 1998 1100RT doesn't have a sensor in the exhaust system but I'm told it has a catalyst exhaust: my 2002 Kawasaki ZZR1200 has catalyst cans but no O2 sensors etc, the KLEEN system.

In DR's image, do you just connect together the numbered pins with jumper cables? they are standard relay numbers so I don't understand  

My bike has the idle pot/potentiometer fitted as standard, as shown. It doesn't seem to be working! I've just turned the adjuster in 15 turns, and it didn't bottom out then...I just turned it back to where I started. There's no resistance at all on the screw. 

I've rebuilt and set the throttle bodies and TPS, the Carbtune Pro readings suggest its now spot on correct, but its still missing and backfiring a tiny amount when I set off from idle. 

If the idle pot is broken, should I disconnect it, and/or bridge the wiring plug connectors?

Thanks guys!      

 

Update: I've just disconnected this device...made zero difference to idling, or revving the engine in neutral. Haven't tried riding without it though!

 

I'm also in the U.K. '97 r1100r. I've tried adjusting my idle pot, from end to end, doesn't seem to make the slightest difference to running. I measured the resistance, set it to the recommended 620 ohms resistance, or whatever it is. No change. I've checked connectivity to the Motronic, the wires are connected. I've unplugged it, no difference whatsoever. 

 

This is what I have in my CCP socket now, and the bike runs sweet and smooth at low speed, I can run down to idle in 1st gear, burbling along, then open the throttle and she pulls away with no trace of jerking or surging. 

 

I get 45mpg, which is down on what I used to get, but I think that may be due to wear and tear and the 'uprated' injectors that are supposed to give more fuel in a better spray pattern. 

 

The TBs have been put  through various setting, zero to zero, zero to 250, but none of that stopped the surging. 

 

These are just small spade connectors, it is the equivalent of the 'pink' CCP. No idea why it works so well, it should do, but it just does. 

 

[jacksdad63]

I've just made a connector as above, will see what happens next! I cannot get the idle below 1500 rpm, and as you ay the idle poy only seems to change the idle above 4.00V, and its worse...back it down below that and it doesn't do anything I can detect, even removing it doesn't change things.

The throttles are perfect at 3000rpm, and still balanced at idle but at 1500...

[jacksdad63]

Tried the jumpesr as above, bike idles properly but wouldn't rev cleanly and was backfiring when I closed the throttle. Removed the wires and it carried on running the same. Now pulled the #5 fuse and just leaving the bike to cool down again

 

[Eleven]

King Herald,

 

You mentioned the idle pot recommended setting was (maybe) 620 ohms in your most recent response in this thread. Was that something that was in your owners manual since the idle pot was stock on your bike? That is close to the setting I found to be the best for my bike which is 524. 

[JamesW]

I might have asked this question in the past but I can't recall as it has been a few years.  Anyway,  I wish I knew if all 2.2 oilheads, specifically an R1100RT, can be made to perform like my very early (1993) R1100RSL by simply removing the CCP which on my RSL is done by cutting a jumper on the wire side of the Motronic cable harness connector.  Maybe the results would not be the same with a later Motronic ECU version?  I bet D.R. would know.

[dirtrider]

20 minutes ago, Eleven said:

King Herald,

 

You mentioned the idle pot recommended setting was (maybe) 620 ohms in your most recent response in this thread. Was that something that was in your owners manual since the idle pot was stock on your bike? That is close to the setting I found to be the best for my bike which is 524. 

Evening  Eleven

 

The owners manual doesn't cover the Co. pot adjustments. It isn't set by ohms or voltage.

 

On non- Catalytic Converter (non o2 sensor) 1100 motorcycles the Idle Valve (Idle Trim Pot) is set/adjusted at the factory to a nominal Co. output reading (I don't know what the factory setting is  (probably around 1.5% Co. at hot engine curb idle with a specific test gasoline).

 

There is a BMW service bulletin that for service (after doing a curb idle throttle balance) to use the Idle Valve to set the hot engine curb idle to 1.5% Co. output  (+/- .5%). 

 

The Idle Valve wasn't designed as a rideability controlling device, it was added for emission compliance adjustment in countries that had an idle Co. compliance law but didn't require a Cat or o2 sensor. 

 

 

[Eleven]

dirtrider,

 

Sounds good…...thanks DR. 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, JamesW said:

I might have asked this question in the past but I can't recall as it has been a few years.  Anyway,  I wish I knew if all 2.2 oilheads, specifically an R1100RT, can be made to perform like my very early (1993) R1100RSL by simply removing the CCP which on my RSL is done by cutting a jumper on the wire side of the Motronic cable harness connector.  Maybe the results would not be the same with a later Motronic ECU version?  I bet D.R. would know.

Afternoon James

 

I will have to see if I can find it in my old BMW paper documentation but if I recall correctly there were only 2 baked in fuel/spark maps in your (pre CCP) 1100.  One with the CCP wire connected & one without the CCP wire hooked up. How those maps compare to the later 1100 Ma 2.2  multiple maps (o2 with cat, no o2/no cat, low octane fuel, inlet tube size, country).     I really don't know as that would be impossible without reading  (and fully understanding) the actual mapping programming. 

 

BMW was (still is) pretty tight lipped about the early Ma 2.2 mapping functions, what I do know has taken many years to find & verify.  

 

One of the big factors is the early BMW 1100 motorcycles were factory set & factory adjusted to operate on non-alcohol  gasoline that had a higher vapor pressure (pre evaporation emission compliance).  That was difficult (very small window) as all the (non gray market) BMW motorcycles came into the USA needing to comply with California early emission restrictions. 

 

Most countries (mainly European and UK) only had a basic idle Co. output regulation as they didn't test for anything that couldn't be done statically. So all they needed to comply was an idle  Co. adjustment using the  Idle Control Valve (no Cat).

 

California actually ran a full array of emission tests on the models that were to be sold in California (not each one but a representative of that model line). Those were put through a much more complex emission test so they not only needed to meet the Idle Co. but also needed to meet all (warm engine) ranges  except wide open throttle & (my guess) some open throttle high load conditions). Basically Californian emissions needed a Cat  & the Cat required an o2 sensor to function correctly. 

 

BMW chose to only import California compliant 1100 motorcycles so the rest of the US ended up with light throttle surging complaints along with an o2 sensor & cat.  

 

Switzerland was also an outlier, it required a different CCP on the 1100 sold in that country. I never really figured that one out (I never had a real need to) but a quick guess would be that it was a related to horsepower output for some odd reason. 

 

Canada was also a weird deal, BMW imported USA compliant (cat & o2 sensor) 1100 motorcycles into Canada, so (I presume) they would have come with a CCP that made the Motronic use the o2 sensor & cat. as they had no Idle Trim Pot from the factory. But a friend of mine who lives in Canada bought a brand new BMW 1100RT (just delivered to the dealer a couple of days before he bought it) that had no CCP installed. He questioned me about that & I told him it was probably a mistake or missed at assembly but said he knew a few other Canadian riders that bought 1100 motorcycle without CCPs. BMW would not have sent out cat/o2 sensor motorcycles without a CCP to force the o2 sensor work, so (again my guess) is that the Canadian dealers were removing the CCPs at or before delivery.