Help me with a Tutorial on Right Hand Turns

[Mike]

My son, Alex, just got back from college and took his SV650S out for a spin. He asked me last night to give him some help with right hand turns--he says he feels tentative and can't turn as sharply going right as left. He's a relatively new rider (two seasons) and is intent on getting it right.

 

I've been putting together a curriculum in my head, but I thought I'd ask the rest of you for your input. I'm going to try more of an A to Z approach, rather than just focusing solely on right turns, including the following:

 

-Setting up properly for turns (lane position, gear and speed)

-Lateral body position--hanging off vs. kissing the mirrors

-Weighting/unweighting footpegs

-Fore/aft weight distribution (avoiding leaning on the bars)

-Looking through the turn

-Slow in/fast out/rolling on the throttle

 

Any words of wisdom? Something else I should work on with him? Your advice?

 

Thanks!

[David]

That's good stuff. But you probably also want to give him some ideas on why he's struggling with right hand turns more than left hand turns:

 

a) Tighter throttle hand as he moves that right hand bar toward him and moves his body toward it. Throttle control is more difficult when you are turning right. One key people miss on this is to scoot their butt back.

 

b) Power sight lines.

[Woodie]

b) Power sight lines.

 

I liked/understood your first point. Can you elaborate on this second point?

[David]

b) Power sight lines.

 

I liked/understood your first point. Can you elaborate on this second point?

 

I'm a complete doofus (or is it dufus?). And that after I made fun of someone who mispelled grammar this morning.

 

I meant to say "poor sight lines."

[R4ND0M_AX3]

Is he really able to turn sharper on left turns or is it that most left turns have a larger radius anyway?

 

in other words, Sharper absolute or sharper relative to the road?

[Woodie]

Aaahhh.

 

I was feeling a bit stupid, as if I had missed something in the whole turning the bike activity over the last 20+ years. LOL

 

(Not that I know it all--YET!)

[MattS]

...is it that most left turns have a larger radius anyway?...

That's just wrong. Yes, a left turn (in right-hand-drive territory) would have a larger radius than the right turn coming the other way -- but you ain't (or at least I think you ain't) riding the same turn at the same time in both different directions; which is the only way you're going to sense the radius differential between a given left and right.

 

When you ride, you experience the lefts and the rights in relative isolation; you may find statistically that lefts are, on average, of greater radius than rights ... but that is not necessary (a) universal for all rides and routes or (b) meaningful to the difficulties riders face turning right versus turning left.

 

I like rights and dislike lefts ... because on lefts I (a) want to bring my line too close to oncoming traffic and (b) if the road is off-camber, then lefts are really off camber and © you don't have the luxury of sliding across an empty lane before going over the edge.

[Dave McReynolds]

I generally feel more tentative when making right-hand turns on country roads because the apex of my turn is close to the edge of the road, where I might run off the road or catch the sand or gravel that sometimes accumulates there. The apex of my left-hand turns is in the center of the road where I feel like I have more room for error, so long as no cars are trying to share the same space. So to give myself more confidence on right-hand turns, I will pick a specific spot for my apex, maybe a foot to the left of the fog line, that allows me a little room for error, rather than just trying to apex as close to the edge of the road as I can. This also increases my confidence when I am able to hit my chosen spot, rather than always feeling a little unsatisfied when I try to apex as close as I can to the edge of the road: "If only I were a better rider, I could have apexed a little closer to the edge of the road."

[Mike]

b) Power sight lines.

 

I liked/understood your first point. Can you elaborate on this second point?

 

I'm glad you asked the question.

[Mike]

Is he really able to turn sharper on left turns or is it that most left turns have a larger radius anyway?

 

in other words, Sharper absolute or sharper relative to the road?

 

I'll explore this some more with him, but part of it is related to the fact that, in the U.S., right hand turns at intersections are sharper. I suspect, though, that David might have hit on the answer when he made his observation about gripping the throttle. That's why I posted this here--after many years of riding, there are some things that you start doing (or avoiding) without conscious thought, and I needed your help to help me dissect the process.

 

Here's my approach to the death grip on the throttle issue--I try to ride with my weight off the grips, using a light touch. Also--and I'm sure this is considered cheating--if I'm not controlling the throttle well in turns, I enter one gear higher than normal, to avoid abruptness in my throttle inputs. I'm sure there are better answers than this, however.

[Firefight911]

Another thing to do is to go out and concentrate on the countersteering aspect of turns.

 

Press left, Go left, Press right, Go right.

 

Also Look left, Go Left, Look Right, Go Right, Look Down, Go Down!!

 

Review Master Yodas Riding Position.

 

Good luck and keep us posted on what you find out/how things are going.

[codinn]

Right hand turns, especially downhill onto narrow roads from a stop require faith that the bike is not going to tip over, good throttle control and clutch management.

 

Parking lot practice getting to where you are comfortable in full lock turns requiring faith, experience and technique go a long ways towards being able to turn the bike sharply at low speeds.

 

That kind of turn takes more "committment" than a larger radius left hand turn.

 

I'm sure there are similar problems with left turns for folks who drive on the other side of the road.

[Lawman]

"I like rights and dislike lefts ... because on lefts I (a) want to bring my line too close to oncoming traffic"

 

Finally someone who can relate to my poor skill..I thought I was the only one dealing with this problem..

[steveknapp]

c) you don't have the luxury of sliding across an empty lane before going over the edge.

 

Totaly a mental thing for me too. Also that when I'm turning right I feel like I'm leaning away from traffic, where left I feel like I'm putting my head into oncomming traffic.

[Tasker]

© you don't have the luxury of sliding across an empty lane before going over the edge.

 

OUCH!!!

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I would work on two things.

 

1. Late, wide entry into the turns.

2. Completion of the turn or follow through.

 

These are actually inter-related. There is a tendency on the part of far too many drivers/riders to start a turn way too early. Perhaps in the belief that they don't have to use as much lean angle, perhaps because they have not really learned 'quick turn' and don't know how to commit to an efficient lean angle. Watch him for mid corner corrections which are a usual symptom. Work on getting wide to improve the sight lines and delaying turn in to the last possible moment.

 

As to completion of the turn, it is really more of the same. The finish of the corner requires committment as well. I have seen far too many folks kinda give up toward the end of the turn and not complete the arc they set at the beginning. Again, poor sight line can cause this as, if you come in too early, you won't be able to draw the line back from the exit and through the apex to where you are, since you won't see the exit till you are upon it. Work on holding the arc initiated at the beginning of the corner right through to the point that the bike starts to pull back to the inside of the road. Think of it as "follow through".

[rfc1992]

I knew I was different, but this confirms it.

 

I am MORE confident in right hand turns ("RHT") than left. Why? On an RHT the lean of the bike is greater, but I have confidence that I shan't overshoot to the point my wheels go off the road. In addition, I seem to be more confident in my power sight lines when going right.

 

Left turns pose different threats, of which I am aware because the dangers are seemingly more immediate and mortal. In a left had turn ("LHT"), your head can hang out into oncoming traffic if you have a bad line. If you are going wide, you may run out of room on the road and have to brush up on off-road skills (I don't ride a GS). I need to learn to pick the proper line between these dangers.

 

I am getting better, through tutalage of others (some of which are on this board). I am certain that a RideSmart class would help.

[Turbodog]

I've often wondered if trouble with right hand turns (as in U-turns say) has to do with wether the rider is right or left hand dominant. So far, everyone I've asked who finds it more difficult has been right handed. Any southpaws out there find right turns a little trickier?

[Shaun]

Your list of topics seems quite comprehensive, including as it does items such as weighting the foot-pegs. Another topic you might consider: when and when not to brake and associated consequences.

 

The ‘death-grip’ has already been mentioned. In addition I’ve found that the occasional practice taking all pressure off my left hand, once committed to a right turn, is enlightening. For obscure reasons of its own, my left feels compelled to contribute to the process and can be more a hindrance than helpful. I’m sure my right behaves similarly on left turns but this is more difficult to judge.

 

Sight lines (‘Looking through the turn’) is a valuable subject. As a personal comment, and in as much as it relates to twisties, I find left’s more challenging than right’s. With right-turning curves my sight arc is objective; the physical road edge, fog line, etc. Entrances, apexes, exits are all identifiable with the left out-of-bounds typically being defined by the, again, physical centerline. Left-turning curves seem more nebulous. The arc follows the centerline but isn’t. The apex is a vague area of road rather than a feature. Only the exit appears tangible. So, for better or worse, I find that right turns are governed by riding through the apex and left turns by riding to the exit.

 

I’m not quite clear about your intention with regard to ‘avoiding leaning on the bars’. Applying pressure to the bars should be avoided but shifting weight forward can be beneficial (with support through knees).

 

Have fun. Hope your son is prepared.

[MysticRed]

I like lefts better than rights (right handed) and I always chalked it up to being able to see farther into the corner on lefts. I just have to take it slower on rights. There are two rights on my commute that I am totally familiar with but won't lean into because I can't see far enough. I would love to cut down all the vegetation to test my theory.

[Carnadero]

I like lefts better than rights (right handed) and I always chalked it up to being able to see farther into the corner on lefts.

I dunno, I suspect it's more of a mental thing than anything else. For example, when I play hockey it always feels easier and more natural turning to the left than to the right. When I turn myself around to play defense, twisting to the left is easier and done more fluidly than to the right. These tendencies do carry across to my riding to a degree; tight turns to the left feel easier to manage then a tight turn to the right.

[Bart Anderson]

You've gotten a lot of great feedback in this thread so far. The only comment I have is that you may not want to present these "solutions" to your son all at once, as it may lead to overload and end up doing more harm than good. If you don't want to spoon feed him, at least remind him to try them discretely rather than all at once.

 

I know it's been mentioned before, but I find that if I try to work on improving more than one or two things in each ride I end up not riding well and not improving a thing. FWIW...

[Mike]

Great suggestion, Bart. I'm trying to take it at a reasonable pace. He's actually a very good rider for his level of experience. The good thing is that he actually respects my riding abilities, so he listens to me when we discuss these things.

[Peter W]

With hockey, left hand turns are easier if you are right handed because you hold the stick predominently on the left side (pointing left). I have played plenty and am right handed and have noticed the same thing. 15 miles of my commute is through a canyon road that I can practice over and over again the same corners. It's great to hone skills. I find LHT's much less natural than righties. And I have struggled for a long time to determine why. I have no problem barreling into a blind RH corner (which will kill me I'm sure), but am hesitant to go as low into a lefty with a view. I wish I could figure this out, but haven't been able to yet. Maybe the right-handedness has something to do with the natural ability for your head to swivel in that direction? Anyway, the throttle issue is interesting, never even thought about it.

 

Peter

[sb955i]

I agree with the other posts, it may be a death grip on the bars. Make sure your son is holding his torso up with his knees against the tank, taking as much weight off his wrists as possible.

 

Another thought would be to get him in a large, level parking lot with good grip ( no sand ), and have him do low speed circles, then figure eights. He may just need to develop muscle memory for handling the transition from upright to leaned over. This will help him get over the 'falling-in' feeling he's probably experiencing on the right hander. That too will release his grip as he gets used to the feeling. Practice practice practice

[dsl]

Your son has good road instincts. Perhaps he should follow them, rather than try and overcome them. A few other dangers unique to right handers that I didn’t see discussed above:

 

- You are much more likely to encounter sand/gravel in right handers due to: 1) when cages run their tires off the pavement, it plows sand/gravel onto the road in right handers as opposed to away from the road on left handers and 2) road crown will tend to bowl/pool flood water, and the sand/silt it carries, in right handers, whereas road crown will dissipate flood water in left handers. If you see sand/gravel in a left hander [excluding winter], chances are very high that it has come across from the opposing lane - ie, the same corner taken as a right hander is much worse (ummm... and blinder).

- Cages will consciously (read frequently) cross the double yellow on their left handers (our right handers) due to sheer laziness - you know, straightening the corners out. Cages only cross the double yellow on their right handers if they’ve made a big mistake... (hopefully, that means infrequently).

....and © you don't have the luxury of sliding across an empty lane before going over the edge.

True but, what happens if it's not.... "empty?"