Cold Start Issue '04 R1150R

[Achilles8857]

Lots of great posts on here - have learned tons.

However my issue *seems* a bit different than those that have been dealt with. Apologies if not...

 

Conditions:
- New battery within last 4 mos.

- New starter within last 3 mos. Good quality from Beemer Boneyard

- Upper and lower plugs replaced approx. 2K miles ago (on my own); did notice some (not excessive) oil on both sets of plugs when replacing

- Fuel, air, oil filters replaced 2K miles ago (on my own)

- Recent (<1000 miles ago) throttle body synchronization (after plug replacement, by reputable BMW certified shop)

- Always good quality fuel typically 93 Octane (with Ethanol)

 

Symptoms:

- Fuel pump initializes no problem when turning key to ON position

- Cranks well but will not start immediately when cold (ambient temps in the 70's/80's here in FL) which is what I'm used to; at a minimum take several tries, then it catches and sputters to life until 'warm' and lines out at idle (1000 RPM)

- Hold the throttle 1/4 turn and hit the start button - starts right up but sputters and sometimes will choke out unless throttle is applied, and until reaching proper idle which is in about 30~60 seconds. Sounds like it is starving for fuel initially.

- Otherwise bike runs a dream after a only a minute or so of riding

 

Any help is diagnosing this is greatly appreciated.

 

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, Achilles8857 said:

Lots of great posts on here - have learned tons.

However my issue *seems* a bit different than those that have been dealt with. Apologies if not...

 

Conditions:
- New battery within last 4 mos.

- New starter within last 3 mos. Good quality from Beemer Boneyard

- Upper and lower plugs replaced approx. 2K miles ago (on my own); did notice some oil on both sets of plugs when replacing

- Fuel, air, oil filters replaced 2K miles ago (on my own)

- Recent (<1000 miles ago) throttle body synchronization (after plug replacement by reputable BMW certified shop)

- Always good quality fuel typically 93 Octane (with Ethanol)

 

Symptoms:

- Fuel pump initializes no problem when turning key to ON position

- Cranks well but will not start immediately when cold (ambient temps in the 70's/80's here in FL) which is what I'm used to; at a minimum take several tries, then it catches and sputters to life until 'warm' and lines out at idle (1000 RPM)

- Hold the throttle 1/4 turn and hit the start button - starts right up but sputters and sometimes will choke out unless throttle is applied, and until reaching proper idle whic is in about 30~60 seconds. Sounds like it is starving for fuel initially.

- Otherwise bike runs a dream after a only a minute or so of riding

 

Any help is diagnosing this is greatly appreciated.

 

Morning  Achilles8857

 

LOTS of possibilities on this one__

 

You have an 04 1150 so I assume it is a twin spark engine? So the first place I would look is at the stick coils for not getting full voltage during & just after starting.  Some 04 twin spark engines have a 2nd load relief relay to power the upper stick coils & some don't. That 2nd load relief relay can significantly boost starting & cold idle voltage to the upper coils.

 

Low voltage to the upper spark plug coils during, & right after, starting can really effect quick starting & runability right after starting. 

 

Another thing to look at is to install a higher wattage generator warning  light bulb,  although it won't effect actual starting it can effect runabilty right after starting as a higher wattage generator light bulb will bring the alternator on-line earlier & at a lower engine RPM.  This will boost fuel output from your fuel injectors right after cold start. 

 

Another place to look is at the fuel pressure just before, during, & right after, engine starting. Even a couple of pounds low on fuel fuel pressure during, or right after, engine starting can effect the starting, cold engine runability & smooth running right after starting. 

 

As a first (easy) check, you might try removing fuse #5 after parking the motorcycle, then reinstall the fuse & do a new TPS re-learn just before cold starting the engine. If it (then) starts better & cold idles better suspect something that is causing your fueling adaptives to be WAY OFF normal (like a failing o2 sensor). If "this" makes  a difference in cold starting & cold idling that will give us a direction to follow. 

 

Another place to look is at oil fouling of lower spark plugs after parking the motorcycle.  Maybe try installing good clean lower spark plugs just before cold engine starting,  that will give you a look at the ones removed from engine after an overnight parking & also give you nice clean lower plugs to see if that improves cold starting & cold idle. 

 

Also, make sure that your motorcycle has the correct CCP in the fuse box.  (this needs to be correct to properly troubleshoot your problem)

 

Added: Are you using the choke correctly? Your choke is ONLY a fast idle device as it has no real enrichening effect. The choke lever has 2 real positions, "ON" (that is when it stays where you set it at),  & ALL the way on, to use that setting you need manually hold the choke lever all the way up against the spring pressure. Once the engine starts then continue to hold the choke lever ALL way up until the engine running cleans up a little & it will stay running on it's own. You shouldn't really need the "all-the-way-up" position in the warmer Florida weather but it is something to try to see if it will help your starting & after-start stalling.

 

Lots more but this is enough to get you started on your troubleshooting. 

[Michaelr11]

Achilles8857   

 

Your list doesn't mention a check of the valve clearances.  If tight, they can cause difficult starting.

 

Are you using the fast idle lever with no throttle input when starting?

[Doctare]

I didn't see you mention  the fast idle lever .

Like Michaelr11 said"Are you using the fast idle lever with no throttle input when starting?"

 

[Achilles8857]

2 minutes ago, Michaelr11 said:

Achilles8857   

 

Your list doesn't mention a check of the valve clearances.  If tight, they can cause difficult starting.

 

Are you using the fast idle lever with no throttle input when starting?

Ok let me answer your post first because the recommendations from dirt rider involve some diagnostic tests.

- First let me further clarify this is indeed a twin spark bike hence upper and lower plugs

- I did the valve clearance adjustment at the same time I changed out the spark plugs. Now, this was the first time I'd done them on my own on this or any bike, but I've done valves in other vehicles e.g. air cooled VW's; I have a proper stepwise procedure, plus the Haynes manual, and the proper tools; but since it's a first time there might but I felt pretty good about getting them right.

- If by 'fast idle lever' is meant what I call the choke; down here in FL I haven't felt the need to do so; however if that is the recommended cold start procedure I am trainable.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Achilles8857 said:

Ok let me answer your post first because the recommendations from dirt rider involve some diagnostic tests.

- First let me further clarify this is indeed a twin spark bike hence upper and lower plugs

- I did the valve clearance adjustment at the same time I changed out the spark plugs. Now, this was the first time I'd done them on my own on this or any bike, but I've done valves in other vehicles e.g. air cooled VW's; I have a proper stepwise procedure, plus the Haynes manual, and the proper tools; but since it's a first time there might but I felt pretty good about getting them right.

- If by 'fast idle lever' is meant what I call the choke; down here in FL I haven't felt the need to do so; however if that is the recommended cold start procedure I am trainable.

Evening  Achilles8857

 

In warm weather you usually don't need the fast idle (choke) to get them started but you probably do need it to keep them running after starting. 

 

Until you get the RPM's up a little & get the engine to stabilize your system voltage will be fairly low therefore your fuel injection will be weak as well as the upper coil spark output will be weak (engine will run like it is way too lean).

 

You need to get the RPM's up enough after starting to get the alternator charging. 

 

Putting a higher watt light bulb in the generator light socket will help bring the alternator on-line at a  lower RPM improving your after start engine runability if you want to keep starting with no fast idle (choke). 

 

If your motorcycle doesn't have the 2nd load relief relay then adding one of those can also significantly improve the right after-cold-start engine running. (would have to be wired in, so involves some electrical knowledge)   

 

 

[Achilles8857]

1 minute ago, dirtrider said:

Evening  Achilles8857

 

Putting a higher watt light bulb in the generator light socket will help bring the alternator on-line at a  lower RPM improving your after start engine runability if you want to keep starting with no fast idle (choke).

Would not have thought of that in 1000 years but will try it.

[dirtrider]

4 minutes ago, Achilles8857 said:

Would not have thought of that in 1000 years but will try it.

Evening  Achilles8857

 

You 1150R probably came from the factory with a 1.7 watt gen-light bulb, same bulb in 3 watt is just about right. 

[Michaelr11]

1 hour ago, Achilles8857 said:

by 'fast idle lever' is meant what I call the choke; down here in FL I haven't felt the need to do so; however if that is the recommended cold start procedure I am trainable.

I don’t want to step on DRs responses, so I won’t be too involved. I used the term fast idle, because that’s what it does. BMW labeled it a choke, but it isn’t. There is no change in the mixture using the lever. All it does is move the throttle cables, just like when you put some tension on the throttle grip. It’s not necessary to use the “choke” but if you don’t, I would recommend that you put just a slight bit of pressure on the throttle grip when you press the starter. It should start immediately.

[Achilles8857]

Just now, Michaelr11 said:

I don’t want to step on DRs responses, so I won’t be too involved. I used the term fast idle, because that’s what it does. BMW labeled it a choke, but it isn’t. There is no change in the mixture using the lever. All it does is move the throttle cables, just like when you put some tension on the throttle grip. It’s not necessary to use the “choke” but if you don’t, I would recommend that you put just a slight bit of pressure on the throttle grip when you press the starter. It should start immediately.

 

That info is appreciated. I will make that test first thing in the AM and report back here.

This forum is really great!

[dirtrider]

Evening  Achilles8857

 

The fast idle (choke)  lever has 2 real positions, "ON" (that is when it stays where you set it at),  then there is another setting at ALL-THE-WAY-UP, to use that setting you need manually hold the choke lever all the way up against the spring pressure. Once the engine starts then continue to hold the choke lever ALL way up until the engine running cleans up a little then it should stay running on it's own.

You shouldn't really need the "all-the-way-up" position in the warmer Florida weather but it is something to try to see if it will help your starting & help the after-start stalling.

[Mrclubike]

It wouldn't hurt anything to make sure both  stick coils are actually functioning

I road my bike for over 5000 miles before realizing the right side was bad

The only symptom I had was low speed surging

Not sure it would cause your symptoms but just throwing it out there

[Mrclubike]

I have a LED head light and tail light

I am sure that helps get charging voltage up quickly also

[dirtrider]

9 hours ago, Mrclubike said:

I have a LED head light and tail light

I am sure that helps get charging voltage up quickly also

 

Morning Mrclubike

 

LED headlight & tail light would have no effect on how quickly the alternator starts charging  but could take a little load off of the system before the alternator starts charging.

[Achilles8857]

21 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Evening  Achilles8857

 

The fast idle (choke)  lever has 2 real positions, "ON" (that is when it stays where you set it at),  then there is another setting at ALL-THE-WAY-UP, to use that setting you need manually hold the choke lever all the way up against the spring pressure. Once the engine starts then continue to hold the choke lever ALL way up until the engine running cleans up a little then it should stay running on it's own.

You shouldn't really need the "all-the-way-up" position in the warmer Florida weather but it is something to try to see if it will help your starting & help the after-start stalling.

 

Ok I know it's a bold move but I got out the rider's manual out to check the starting procedure and it's pretty much as described.

A = ALL THE WAY UP and where you have to hold it

B = ON, the one that stays where you set it

C = OFF

 

So - Engine cold. Per the procedure, I pulled the fast idle lever to the A position and held it there and hit the start button. No twisting of the throttle (yet, per procedure). The starter turned the engine over solidly but the engine didn't fire right away. So I let off the start button; it took perhaps two more tries of these steps before the engine finally caught and would 'idle' on its' own. I was supposed to goose the throttle as soon as the engine caught (and not wait for the idle to come up), but I didn't do that. In any case, when it did start it idled not particularly smoothly initially and then, down in the 6-700 RPM range (gauging by the tach needle), and then it stalled out. This happened twice, stalling out both times. After I finally got it restarted (same way) and not stalling, it took several minutes before I felt comfortable to push the lever down to the C position. I hope this makes sense; I will try again tomorrow and be more rigorous in following the procedure.

 

P.S. I don't have a clue what upper coils are and how to test (not that that's necessarily the next step in diagnosis, that is). Looking over the Haynes tonight....

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Achilles8857
Grammer

[dirtrider]

58 minutes ago, Achilles8857 said:

 

Ok I know it's a bold move but I got out the rider's manual out to check the starting procedure and it's pretty much as described.

A = ALL THE WAY UP and where you have to hold it

B = ON, the one that stays where you set it

C = OFF

 

So - Engine cold. Per the procedure, I pulled the fast idle lever to the A position and held it there and hit the start button. No twisting of the throttle (yet, per procedure). The starter turned the engine over solidly but the engine didn't fire right away. So I let off the start button; it took perhaps two more tries of these steps before the engine finally caught and would 'idle' on its' own. I was supposed to goose the throttle as soon as the engine caught (and not wait for the idle to come up), but I didn't do that. In any case, when it did start it idled not particularly smoothly initially and then, down in the 6-700 RPM range (gauging by the tach needle), and then it stalled out. This happened twice, stalling out both times. After I finally got it restarted (same way) and not stalling, it took several minutes before I felt comfortable to push the lever down to the C position. I hope this makes sense; I will try again tomorrow and be more rigorous in following the procedure.

 

P.S. I don't have a clue what upper coils are and how to test (not that that's necessarily the next step in diagnosis, that is). Looking over the Haynes tonight....

 

Evening  Achilles8857

 

The upper (stick)  coils are on the spark plugs, it is a COP (Coil On Plug) design.

 

No real good way to test the upper (stick) coils as they use an isolated secondary.

 

You can try running with one or the other upper coils disconnected to see if there is a runabilty difference but that probably won't tell you much as you say it runs good when hot. 

 

It still sounds like you have a cold starting problem, like I mentioned above, LOTs of possibilities so you will just have to work your way through them.

 

******You might have an incorrectly adjusted fast idle cable (what engine RPM do you see on the tac on a hot engine when holding choke lever at "A"?)*****

 

First thing, make sure that you have the correct CCP in the fuse box -- Or at least make sure that you HAVE a CCP in the fuse box. 

 

If the CCP is there then try the #5 fuse removal, then re-install just before a cold start & do a new TPS relearn. 

 

   --to do a TPS re-learn--

(with choke OFF)

*Remove fuse #5 for about 5 minutes, then re-install  fuse #5. (your fuse 5 was already removed overnight per above)

Then

*Switch on the ignition switch.

Then

*Without starting the engine, fully open & close the throttle twice so that 
the Fueling Computer can register the throttle-valve position.

then

*Switch off the ignition.

That's it, that re-teaches the TPS where closed & open throttle is.

 

[Jim Moore]

Hey OP, does the choke lever raise the rpm when the bike is warmed up? Sometimes the cables get stretched and the choke has has reduced or no effect

[Achilles8857]

56 minutes ago, Jim Moore said:

Hey OP, does the choke lever raise the rpm when the bike is warmed up? Sometimes the cables get stretched and the choke has has reduced or no effect

Yes, the choke lever does indeed raise the RPM when the bike is warm.

Choke in C position, idle is +/- 900 idle is a bit rough and even when I thought I had the engine warm, it stalled once; moving to B position takes idle to about 1100; and pushing and holding in A position takes it to about 1400.

 

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

******You might have an incorrectly adjusted fast idle cable (what engine RPM do you see on the tac on a hot engine when holding choke lever at "A"?)*****

As stated above - about 1400.

[dirtrider]

14 minutes ago, Achilles8857 said:

Yes, the choke lever does indeed raise the RPM when the bike is warm.

Choke in C position, idle is +/- 900 idle is a bit rough and even when I thought I had the engine warm, it stalled once; moving to B position takes idle to about 1100; and pushing and holding in A position takes it to about 1400.

 

As stated above - about 1400.

Evening  Achilles8857

 

1,400 RPM, hot engine, choke lever all the way up is usually right where I set them (so you are close on the choke setting). The "B"  position is sort of low though, you might try adjusting the choke cable to get 1200 RPM's at "B" position.-- Up by the choke lever (just under the housing there is a rubber boot on the choke cable) slide that down the cable then adjust the cable to get a little higher "B" RPM.  

 

Choke cable adjustment gets messed up when someone does a TB balance & lengthens the TB cables cables then doesn't re-adjust the choke cable afterwards. 

 

If a little more on the choke RPM doesn't help  then we will need to look elsewhere-- Fueling adaptives, low injector voltage after cold start or low coil voltage after cold start, low fuel pressure, possible fouled lower spark plug or plugs, engine sensor issue, etc.

 

Next cold start look at the generator light as you are starting the engine cold,  see if the engine starts to clean up & run better just after the generator light goes out.

 

Check for a CCP & do the fuse 5 removal/TPS relearn  mentioned above. 

[Achilles8857]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

First thing, make sure that you have the correct CCP in the fuse box -- Or at least make sure that you HAVE a CCP in the fuse box.

 

There is no CCP in the indicated location (above the Motronic encoding plug).

[Achilles8857]

16 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

The "B"  position is sort of low though, you might try adjusting the choke cable to get 1200 RPM's at "B" position.-- Up by the choke lever (just under the housing there is a rubber boot on the choke cable) slide that down the cable then adjust the cable to get a little higher "B" RPM.

Done.

[dirtrider]

18 minutes ago, Achilles8857 said:

 

There is no CCP in the indicated location (above the Motronic encoding plug).

Evening  Achilles8857

 

OK, you need to get a CCP in that 1150 motorcycle, then do a new TPS relearn. Fuse 5 removed for 15 minutes, then reinstall & do the TPS re-learn (I posted the procedure above). Usually 5 minutes fuse 5 removal is enough but the 15 minutes will be sure to  remove the incorrect learned fueling off-set adaptives. 

 

You want the yellow CCP  (30/87)-- you can just use a jumper wire with flat terminal on each end of the jumper) 

 

[Achilles8857]

17 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

You want the yellow CCP  (30/87)-- you can just use a jumper wire with flat terminal on each end of the jumper) 

 

dirtrider, a bit lost on this:

- what does CCP stand for?

- Is this a common or standard relay? From the pin notation, looks that way

- Should this bike have had a CCP from the jump?

- What does this relay do?

As I say I am looking through the Haynes tonight, and will do the cold start in the AM, but need to know if I need to make a parts run beforehand and is this something that I could get at a FLAPS?

[dirtrider]

19 minutes ago, Achilles8857 said:

dirtrider, a bit lost on this:

- what does CCP stand for?

- Is this a common or standard relay? From the pin notation, looks that way

- Should this bike have had a CCP from the jump?

- What does this relay do?

As I say I am looking through the Haynes tonight, and will do the cold start in the AM, but need to know if I need to make a parts run beforehand and is this something that I could get at a FLAPS?

Evening  Achilles8857

 

- what does CCP stand for?--Basically a Motronic fueling computer coding plug- It is what makes the fueling computer use the correct fueling/spark map (there are a few different maps inside your fueling computer).

 

- Is this a common or standard relay? From the pin notation, looks that way-- NO, not a relay, JUST a basic jumper that looks like a relay. Same as just adding a jumper wire between 30 & 87 in the CCP socket.

 

- Should this bike have had a CCP from the jump?-- Yes, definitely, the 1100 will run good (even better) with no CCP but the 1150 (Ma 2.4 computer) needs the proper CCP to force using the correct internal mapping.

 

- What does this relay do?-- It isn't a relay !-- it is JUST a jumper (in a relay type box) between the indicated socket terminals.

 

As I say I am looking through the Haynes tonight, and will do the cold start in the AM, but need to know if I need to make a parts run beforehand and is this something that I could get at a FLAPS?-- You will have to make it or buy a proper CCP (easier & much cheaper to just make up a simple jumper wire).

[dirtrider]

Here is what it looks like inside.

 

 

[Achilles8857]

2 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Here is what it looks like inside.

 

 

Interesting.

 

I can fab up a jumper np. However I am curious if you can speculate:

- why none was there to begin with?

- might this have been removed for some earlier maintenance - say when the TB's were balanced - and not replaced?

 

- finally: apart from potentially contributing to my cold start issues, what purpose does this jumper serve and what (other) symptoms might manifest themselves in it's absence?

 

Cheers, Larry

[dirtrider]

41 minutes ago, Achilles8857 said:

Interesting.

 

I can fab up a jumper np. However I am curious if you can speculate:

- why none was there to begin with?

- might this have been removed for some earlier maintenance - say when the TB's were balanced - and not replaced?

 

- finally: apart from potentially contributing to my cold start issues, what purpose does this jumper serve and what (other) symptoms might manifest themselves in it's absence?

 

Cheers, Larry

Evening  Larry

 

There are different fueling/spark maps inside your fueling computer, different countries & models require different fueling maps due to having or not having an evap can, different intake runner sizes, available fuel, etc. 

 

The CCP usually gets removed from the 1150 motorcycle by mistake as removing the CCP was an improvement on the BMW 1100 motorcycles  as it richened up the idle. The 1150 uses a different fueling computer (the Ma 2.4) & that computer doesn't respond well to completely removing the CCP. They usually run OK hot with no CCP as even with the CCP removed it still fuels (warm engine) on the o2 sensor. But "cold engine" it uses fixed  open-loop internal mapping for correct  fueling.

 

I'm not saying that installing the correct CCP will cure your cold start problems but you REALLY need to get the correct CCP in that motorcycle to eliminate that as the cause & to give you a good  baseline to work from.     

 

Added: don't forget to do the TPS  fuse #5 removal/re-install then new TPS re-learn.

[Jim Moore]

2 hours ago, Achilles8857 said:

Yes, the choke lever does indeed raise the RPM when the bike is warm.

Choke in C position, idle is +/- 900 idle is a bit rough and even when I thought I had the engine warm, it stalled once; moving to B position takes idle to about 1100; and pushing and holding in A position takes it to about 1400.

 

As stated above - about 1400.

Your non-choke idle is too low, if you're saying it's at 900 when it's warmed up. The spec is 1000-1100. I like 1200 or so. I think it starts better and comes off the bottom easier. You can adjust it with the big brass screws on the throttle bodies that face backwards.  Try turning each one a quarter-turn to the left. Then another quarter, etc., until you're at 1100-1200. At some point you will need to balance the throttle bodies, but prior to that you can play with it some to see what it does.

 

Where in FL, btw?

[Mrclubike]

13 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Mrclubike

 

LED headlight & tail light would have no effect on how quickly the alternator starts charging  but could take a little load off of the system before the alternator starts charging.

I didn't say anything about it helping the alternator to start charging

After the cranking cycle there is a very short time when charging voltage is lower  because the battery is recovering  

The longer it is cranked the longer this will take

Not that it will really matter when it comes to actually starting the engine

 

The coils should be tested with a spark tester

OHM meter is not  very reliable with coils

 

I like this one

 

[Mrclubike]

This is what my USA spec  04 R1150R   shows when scanned with the GS911

DR are you sure we should have a CCP installed?

I bought mine with 8000 orig miles on it  and it didn't have one when I got it

 

First snip with 87/30    R1150R/GS  Japan

Second snip with out   R1150R/GS  ECE+US

 

 

With 87/30 jumped

 

Without Jumper

[dirtrider]

6 hours ago, Mrclubike said:

This is what my USA spec  04 R1150R   shows when scanned with the GS911

DR are you sure we should have a CCP installed?

I bought mine with 8000 orig miles on it  and it didn't have one when I got it

 

First snip with 87/30    R1150R/GS  Japan

Second snip with out   R1150R/GS  ECE+US

 

 

With 87/30 jumped

 

 

Without Jumper

 

Morning Mrclubike

 

Actually no way to be 100% sure without reading the EPROM (then knowing ALL what it says)  BUT if a BMW 1150 motorcycle has a catalytic converter installed then pin (87) is usually grounded (pin 30). The GS-911 might show the proper EPROM read & might not. 

 

My BMW parts book shows the 2004 USA 1150R gets a yellow CCP so that is all I have to go on.  Go to the BMW dealer & ask for the correct CCP for a 2004 1150R & they will hand you a yellow CCP. 

 

On the up side, an 1150 that came with a CCP needs a similar CCP to get a map that is close, so no CCP in an 1150 that came with one is probably way off. But if by chance an 1150 came without a CCP from the factory then installing a yellow CCP is probably still close as it might be missing an evap can purge command or  some minor command function but at least it should work OK. 

 

Look at your 2004 motorcycle-- The 87/30 CCP    (R1150R/GS  Japan)  wouldn't be a terrible choice as the Japan 1150 had a cat, uses about the same gasoline (might not require an Evap can as that was mostly a USA thing) so the only difference might be an evap command. If the Evap can & purge valve  has been removed then evap command isn't needed anyhow. 

 

I have worked on a number of 1150R bikes &  all so far all (that I am aware of) have had a CCP,  but I can't say I remember working on any very late 2004 1150R bikes with first owners. 

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

Morning   Achilles8857

 

This will get us nowhere with 3 posters trying to take you in 3 different directions on your "cold engine starting" issue.  I basically work with a methodical troubleshooting method so nothing simple gets missed and that won't work with randomly  jumping around or ahead.  

 

So I am going to back-out of this thread so Mrclubike &  Jim  can work with you on your cold starting issue.

 

If you need any specific information that I can provide me just shoot me a PM. 

[Achilles8857]

14 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

If you need any specific information that I can provide me just shoot me a PM. 

 

Ok will do. It's a bit of a challenge to pursue several lines of inquiry at the same time and keep everything straight in my head especially for newb. Usually I end up doing the simplest things first so, all y'all....bear with me.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Achilles8857 said:

 

Ok will do. It's a bit of a challenge to pursue several lines of inquiry at the same time and keep everything straight in my head especially for newb. Usually I end up doing the simplest things first so, all y'all....bear with me.

Morning   Achilles8857

 

Yes, that is pretty well why I backed out, too many cooks spoil the troubleshooting tree  & just turn it into a random guessing game that can easily confuse the "person with the problem" that is looking for the root-cause of their problem. 

[Achilles8857]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

My BMW parts book shows the 2004 USA 1150R gets a yellow CCP so that is all I have to go on.  Go to the BMW dealer & ask for the correct CCP for a 2004 1150R & they will hand you a yellow CCP. 

 

OK just a speculative side bar if I may while I run down this jumper. I did the above (figuratively speaking) by doing a search for the part on the MAX BMW microfiche.

There it says "FOR VEHICLES WITH CATALYTIC CONVERTER WITH MIXTURE CONTROL (CODE: X582A) " for the part. So I ordered one in any case, cheap (my local shop did not have in stock).

Per Haynes if not mistaken all US bikes came fitted with a cat converter; the corresponding section in the Haynes doesn't show anything that I could use to confirm that one is still fitted on my bike.

Any help doing so will be appreciated.

[dirtrider]

40 minutes ago, Achilles8857 said:

OK just a speculative side bar if I may while I run down this jumper. I did the above (figuratively speaking) by doing a search for the part on the MAX BMW microfiche.

There it says "FOR VEHICLES WITH CATALYTIC CONVERTER WITH MIXTURE CONTROL (CODE: X582A) " for the part. So I ordered one in any case, cheap (my local shop did not have in stock).

Per Haynes if not mistaken all US bikes came fitted with a cat converter; the corresponding section in the Haynes doesn't show anything that I could use to confirm that one is still fitted on my bike.

Any help doing so will be appreciated.

Morning   Achilles8857

 

Info is in a PM that I sent you. 

[roger 04 rt]

On 10/28/2020 at 4:36 PM, dirtrider said:

Evening  Achilles8857

 

You 1150R probably came from the factory with a 1.7 watt gen-light bulb, same bulb in 3 watt is just about right. 

The easiest way to get a higher current bulb is to swap the high beam bulb with the Bat/Alt bulb.

[roger 04 rt]

7 hours ago, Achilles8857 said:

 

Ok will do. It's a bit of a challenge to pursue several lines of inquiry at the same time and keep everything straight in my head especially for newb. Usually I end up doing the simplest things first so, all y'all....bear with me.

It can be hard to have “too many cooks”. For the future here is some reading on my experience with the twin spark ‘04 RT:   https://www.bmwsporttouring.com/topic/73198-slow-starting-r1150rt/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-927833

In any case you’re in good hands already. 

[Mrclubike]

Sorry all I went and done it again

I need to learn to stay out  of the way

 

 

[Achilles8857]

15 hours ago, roger 04 rt said:

It can be hard to have “too many cooks”. For the future here is some reading on my experience with the twin spark ‘04 RT:   https://www.bmwsporttouring.com/topic/73198-slow-starting-r1150rt/page/4/?tab=comments#comment-927833

In any case you’re in good hands already. 

This is appreciated however I'm not sure I understand all of it.

 

E.g. I will as you suggested swap out the indicator lights because it also agrees with what DR has recommended however I'll confess even after reading all these posts that I fully understand why. Also will swap out the current battery tender for an AGM charger I have on hand.

[Achilles8857]

21 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Yes, that is pretty well why I backed out, too many cooks spoil the troubleshooting tree  & just turn it into a random guessing game that can easily confuse the "person with the problem" that is looking for the root-cause of their problem.

 

I appreciate the offer of PMing this discussion with you 1:1 however on further thought, if you don't mind, I'd like to keep the discussion out here on the forum. I intend to stick preferentially with the guidance you're providing. Let us have that 1:1 dialogue in front of others, if we could. I think there's something to learn from this guidance (and as I work my way up the learning curve); it would be a shame for others not to be able to benefit from those learnings. I can deal with those of alternate or even opposing opinions if need be, to refrain from getting more than 1 main train of logic going. I hope that sounds reasonable.

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, Achilles8857 said:

 

I appreciate the offer of PMing this discussion with you 1:1 however on further thought, if you don't mind, I'd like to keep the discussion out here on the forum. I intend to stick preferentially with the guidance you're providing. Let us have that 1:1 dialogue in front of others, if we could. I think there's something to learn from this guidance (and as I work my way up the learning curve); it would be a shame for others not to be able to benefit from those learnings. I can deal with those of alternate or even opposing opinions if need be, to refrain from getting more than 1 main train of logic going. I hope that sounds reasonable.

Morning Larry

 

OK, we'll give it another try but if the troubleshooting process starts getting ragged or turns into random jump ahead guessing it then becomes too difficult to stay on track so I will drop out again.  

___________________________________________________

Larry wrote-- "I will as you suggested swap out the indicator lights because it also agrees with what DR has recommended however I'll confess even after reading all these posts that I don't fully understand why".

 

Basically the short answer is__ Your motorcycle has an automotive type external alternator, unlike a generator an automotive type alternator doesn't use use residually magnetized field shoes to start the charging process.

 

An automotive type alternator uses the spinning electromagnetic rotor to control the charging output so it MUST HAVE externally supplied current applied to the rotor to start magnetizing it and start the alternator charging. (there are slight exceptions but this is how they basically work)

 

Once the alternator STARTS charging  it then supplies it's own (variable)  current through the regulator  to keep the rotor field energized & control/regulate output. 

 

So, with the  above in mind WHERE does the alternator get that initial influx of current to start it's charging from?  It gets that from the  generator light circuit  as the generator light is also a resistor of sorts.

 

A LOT of older automobiles use the same alternator start-of-charge through the generator light.

 

With a slightly higher generator light wattage, that is a lower resistance, so it supplies a little higher current to initially start the alternator charging at a lower RPM plus starts it charging quicker right after engine starting.

 

It is a very simple system as the generator light bulb circuit has 2 purposes, it starts the alternator charging but then once the alternator starts charging it then becomes a charging indicator so it will illuminate if the alternator quits working. 

 

Key-off no 12v to either side of generator light, so light OFF

 

Key-on engine not running, 12v to motorcycle side of generator light, alternator side of light is low so generator light is ON. (it is also supplying resisted current to alternator rotor to lightly magnetize it) 

 

Key-on, engine running, 12-14v to motorcycle side of generator light, 12-14v on alternator side of  generator light from alternator charging so light is OFF.

 

Key-on, engine running, 12v to motorcycle side of generator light, alternator QUITS charging or can't keep up with system demand so alternator side goes low therefore generator light is ON,  or if alternator is charging but not enough to keep up with demand then generator light will be glowing or flickering.

[Achilles8857]

OK got it, that's some good learning.

[dirtrider]

1 minute ago, Achilles8857 said:

OK got it, that's some good learning.

Morning Larry

 

When you get chance shoot a picture of your fuse box then either PM it to me of post it here, we will eventually need to see if you have that (2nd load-relief) relay or not. 

 

Also, do you have a small digital volt meter & know how to do basic measurements with it? 

[Achilles8857]

OK here we go.

I do have a VOM and know how to use it.

 

 

[Achilles8857]

On 10/29/2020 at 7:00 PM, Jim Moore said:

Your non-choke idle is too low, if you're saying it's at 900 when it's warmed up. The spec is 1000-1100. I like 1200 or so. I think it starts better and comes off the bottom easier. You can adjust it with the big brass screws on the throttle bodies that face backwards.  Try turning each one a quarter-turn to the left. Then another quarter, etc., until you're at 1100-1200. At some point you will need to balance the throttle bodies, but prior to that you can play with it some to see what it does.

 

Where in FL, btw?

Jim, When I next do a cold start (after TPS re-learn) I will confirm the non-choke warm engine idle but hold off on the idle adjustment for the moment; one step at a time.

I am in Bradenton (south of Tampa, north of Sarasota).

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, Achilles8857 said:

OK here we go.

I do have a VOM and know how to use it.

 

 

 

Afternoon Larry

 

OK, great,  your 1150R bike does have the "load-relief-2" relay. That is good news in that you have it as it is a big asset to running better, especially right after starting, as it gives full system voltage to the upper coils & injectors-- (so we can scratch that off of our list).

 

Don't worry about your warm idle at the moment as you are not starting easily, or cold idling correctly, even with the choke (fast idle) all the way on so that pretty well  takes the warm idle setting out of the problem.

 

Just adjust your base idle at next TB balance. You will probably need to clean the BBS screw tips & the BBS seats anyhow as they coke up over time. That alone will probably raise your curb idle a little.

 

Get that new CCP in there then do a TPS re-learn, & swap out your (gen) light bulb  then see how it starts,  we can then move on from there.  

[Achilles8857]

On 10/31/2020 at 1:20 PM, dirtrider said:

Get that new CCP in there then do a TPS re-learn, & swap out your (gen) light bulb  then see how it starts,  we can then move on from there.  

OK have completed all the maintenance and upgrades and think I'm ready to dig back into this. Here is where the relevant bits stand:

 

1) new CCP installed

2) Gen light bulb swapped out for higher amperage one.

3) TPS re-learn done per this procedure. This was done *after* a handlebar replacement (one of the completed upgrades).

 

Other potentially important variables:

- Choke-on idle was adjusted as reported above. But FYI, handlebars were replaced after this adjustment; H-bar replacement involves removal and re-installation of the handlebar switches including the choke and throttle cables (the existing cables were reused), so the choke idle has not been confirmed.

- the fuel tank breather valve and associated hosing have been removed. The fuel recovery vacuum ports on the throttle bodies have been capped off. The fuel tank vent line which previously went to the breather is now routed to atmosphere.

- fuel filter, in-tank strainer & in-tank U-tubing were replaced

- fuel supply quick-releases were replaced with all-metal versions

- non-choke idle has *not* been adjusted

- neither set of spark plugs have been inspected / replaced at this time

 

Anything else before I engage the choke and mash that start button?

[dirtrider]

32 minutes ago, Achilles8857 said:

OK have completed all the maintenance and upgrades and think I'm ready to dig back into this. Here is where the relevant bits stand:

 

1) new CCP installed

2) Gen light bulb swapped out for higher amperage one.

3) TPS re-learn done per this procedure. This was done *after* a handlebar replacement (one of the completed upgrades).

 

Other potentially important variables:

- Choke-on idle was adjusted as reported above. But FYI, handlebars were replaced after this adjustment; H-bar replacement involves removal and re-installation of the handlebar switches including the choke and throttle cables (the existing cables were reused), so the choke idle has not been confirmed.

- the fuel tank breather valve and associated hosing have been removed. The fuel recovery vacuum ports on the throttle bodies have been capped off. The fuel tank vent line which previously went to the breather is now routed to atmosphere.

- fuel filter, in-tank strainer & in-tank U-tubing were replaced

- fuel supply quick-releases were replaced with all-metal versions

- non-choke idle has *not* been adjusted

- neither set of spark plugs have been inspected / replaced at this time

 

Anything else before I engage the choke and mash that start button?

Afternoon Larry

 

It looks like time to fire the mechanic & give it a try. Depending on how it goes we can move on from there. 

[Achilles8857]

16 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Larry

 

It looks like time to fire the mechanic & give it a try. Depending on how it goes we can move on from there. 

Started the bike using the 'choke' as advised in the Owner's Manual. Temp's here in the 70's.

It sputtered very briefly (pump pushing gas into the various places, I assume) then roared to life. It did die after a minute, but then re-started immediately (no sputtering) right up and ran well afterwards.

Took a minute or three for the choke-on idle to stabilize (rising from ~750 to ~1100).

Took the bike out for a test ride, topped off the tank. Choke off idle is stable ~1100.

Stopped and let it rest for ~30 minutes, it started up immediately again, no trouble.

Rides really well, so this is how this bike is meant to start/run? I think I like!

 

Will try a cold start again in the AM, how can I resist?