Preparing for a group ride

[MrHondamatic]

Spring is here and it is now time to start our Friday Off Work rides. It's mainly for a group of co-workers and myself who have ridden together a couple of times so far. Last year on our first ride, we had a couple incidents with a Gold Wing rider who failed to stay on the road. To help avoid that problem I sent out a short list of things to think about before we head out in two weeks. I have already covered bike preventative maintenance in other messages, so I tried to limit these items to the actual ride. Since I am the ride leader, I feel a great responsibility to ensure a safe and fun ride for the entire goup. Below is the short list I put together and sent with my reminder message. I tried to not beat them over the head with things, but still I wanted to get the message across. Take a look and tell me how it sounds and what I could add or take away. Thanks!

 

Some things to think about:

 

We will be riding at or slightly above the posted limits to flow with the traffic. No rolling roadblocks.

 

Ride at your own pace. That doesn't mean fall behind all the time, but to take the turns and such where you are comfortable. If you do get behind, you can either catch up on the straight sections or rest assured that we will wait on you at the next stop sign /intersection. Nobody will get dropped.

 

If the group gets split up at a traffic light, the first group will stop up the road a short way and wait. Do not feel pressured to go through on the pink light.

 

We will ride in a staggered formation to give everyone room to maneuver through corners and whatever else as needed. That way if we all want to take the same line through a corner, we have plenty of room..

 

We will take plenty of rest breaks along the way. Scott and I don't get great mileage so we stop far more often than some need to and try to stop midway between fill ups, just to stretch.

 

Wives. girlfriends or what ever are welcome, but remember this will have some spirited riding at times. See number 2 above.

 

Wear your protective gear and be prepared for a rain shower. It's better to be prepared and not need that stuff than it is to need it and not have it.

 

And the most important part, HAVE FUN. That's what it's all about, taking a day off during the week and relaxing on two wheels.

[Albert]

we had a couple incidents with a Gold Wing rider who failed to stay on the road.

 

Do you mean this person physically "left the road", as in failed to stay on the pavement? If so I would be tempted to rethink a.) the range of experience of the group and/or b.) the pace of the ride (in light of a.). Your advice to the group is certainly valid but if it's an organized event where participants are invited I think you really need to account for the least proficient rider during the ride. My experience, for what it's worth, is that imploring riders to "ride their own pace", is often lost when the group dials things up a notch. Have fun and be safe.

[David]

Since I am the ride leader, I feel a great responsibility to ensure a safe and fun ride for the entire goup.

 

I'm quoting the "philosophical center" of what you believe, and if you don't mind, I'd like to suggest a few things for you to think about.

 

1. "Safe" and "fun" are sometimes antithetical when it comes to group rides. The more you move that slider toward "safe," the further away it moves from "fun." It's a zero-sum game. You'll have to have like-minded riders with you or they'll define these two terms differently. The fact that you work together has no bearing on what someone considers fun or safe. I, for instance, would have no fun on your ride. I might enjoy the people, but it's too restrictive for my taste.

 

2. Your expectations are way too high. You cannot make a group ride safe. Most groups have some idiot that should never have been let out of the village on his scooter.

 

3. So, your responsibility as a group leader is not to make things safe. It is to communicate very clearly how you as a rider perceive the way to do things. You encourage the participants to understand you clearly and decide if they'd like to join you, but in that process they are taking responsibility for their own actions. And anyone who rides with you must accept responsibility for the dangers of riding in a group. Further, if they ride with me, they acknowledge that I'll be watching how they ride and will talk to them about it if I think it's unsafe. If someone doesn't want open feedback, they should not ride with me. That's true in the reverse, too. If I'm not open to criticism about my riding, I need to ride alone. This ain't carpooling to a movie--this is a life and death sport we do as individuals on a team.

 

I've given up entirely on large group rides, especially the "parade" type ones you are describing. I'll ride in a small group of up to 4 or 5 or maybe 6 people, and I accept that my pace will be different and that I'll have some responsibility to watch over my fellow riders. That lesser fun in the actual riding is something I willingly exchange for more fun in being with these folks at stops.

 

But better yet, pick the stops and let people meet up there. And if you aren't okay with someone going down again on your group ride, don't organize it.

 

I hope you'll take these comments in a helpful spirit. That's how I intend them.

[MrHondamatic]

Do you mean this person physically "left the road", as in failed to stay on the pavement? If so I would be tempted to rethink a.) the range of experience of the group and/or b.) the pace of the ride (in light of a.). Your advice to the group is certainly valid but if it's an organized event where participants are invited I think you really need to account for the least proficient rider during the ride. My experience, for what it's worth, is that imploring riders to "ride their own pace", is often lost when the group dials things up a notch. Have fun and be safe.

 

Yes, one rider left the road, twice! It was lack of experience on his part, the other 7 or so riders had far more time in the saddle and had no problems. Unfortunately I was not clear enough on the type of riding we would be doing, but OTOH both times he got off were very low speed turns that any novice should have been OK with. He just looked at where he did not want to go and rode there. I do suspect someone may have been next to him, or at least close enough that he did not take his own line through the corner, which caused him to swing wide. Luckily 15 mph is a slow enough speed to lay one down fairly easy. The mud made for one messy Wing however.

[MrHondamatic]

I'm quoting the "philosophical center" of what you believe, and if you don't mind, I'd like to suggest a few things for you to think about.

 

1. "Safe" and "fun" are sometimes antithetical when it comes to group rides. The more you move that slider toward "safe," the further away it moves from "fun." It's a zero-sum game. You'll have to have like-minded riders with you or they'll define these two terms differently. The fact that you work together has no bearing on what someone considers fun or safe. I, for instance, would have no fun on your ride. I might enjoy the people, but it's too restrictive for my taste.

 

2. Your expectations are way too high. You cannot make a group ride safe. Most groups have some idiot that should never have been let out of the village on his scooter.

 

3. So, your responsibility as a group leader is not to make things safe. It is to communicate very clearly how you as a rider perceive the way to do things. You encourage the participants to understand you clearly and decide if they'd like to join you, but in that process they are taking responsibility for their own actions. And anyone who rides with you must accept responsibility for the dangers of riding in a group. Further, if they ride with me, they acknowledge that I'll be watching how they ride and will talk to them about it if I think it's unsafe. If someone doesn't want open feedback, they should not ride with me. That's true in the reverse, too. If I'm not open to criticism about my riding, I need to ride alone. This ain't carpooling to a movie--this is a life and death sport we do as individuals on a team.

 

I've given up entirely on large group rides, especially the "parade" type ones you are describing. I'll ride in a small group of up to 4 or 5 or maybe 6 people, and I accept that my pace will be different and that I'll have some responsibility to watch over my fellow riders. That lesser fun in the actual riding is something I willingly exchange for more fun in being with these folks at stops.

 

But better yet, pick the stops and let people meet up there. And if you aren't okay with someone going down again on your group ride, don't organize it.

 

I hope you'll take these comments in a helpful spirit. That's how I intend them.

 

1. I think we can be safe and have fun, but I just wanted to make things clear that this will not be a parade through town. The core group of us have ridden together and had a ball, but it's any potential new riders who need to know what they are getting into. I lead this group to places they have never been, on roads they have never ridden, that's why we go as a group. You might have fun anyway.

 

2.You are probably right, my expectations may be too high, but I don't want to see anyone injured on the ride. Hopefully the list will weed out the idiots, but you never really know.

 

3.Bingo! That statement pretty much describes things to a T. After our first ride and the errant Wing, I almost didn't organize the second ride last fall. In the end, there were a few requests, so I did. It turned out great, but with a smaller group who had similar riding styles.

 

If we have more than 5 or 6 riders total, I will be surprised and that's just fine. Too many can be a problem, as I found out, but I am hesitant to make it too exclusive. I have a short list of possible participants, and I don't plan on expanding it.

 

Thanks for the input, it helps.

[David]

2.You are probably right, my expectations may be too high, but I don't want to see anyone injured on the ride. Hopefully the list will weed out the idiots, but you never really know.

 

Dave, I'll leave you alone now, but I just want to make a comment about this one thing: you are confusing orderly guidelines with safety. Some of the worst riders around are drawn to heavy organization and demanding rituals. There is very little connection between the two.

 

Safety is an illusion.

 

Riding well is an outlook, and it must come from within an individual rider and not downward from a group leader. The "unsafest" riders are often blissfully unaware of their impact on the group.

 

Do have fun! I don't mean to rain on the parade, so to speak. Just wanted to give you some things to think about from someone who has led many, many group rides and finally found a cure.

[MrHondamatic]

Dave, I'll leave you alone now, but I just want to make a comment about this one thing: you are confusing orderly guidelines with safety. Some of the worst riders around are drawn to heavy organization and demanding rituals. There is very little connection between the two.

 

Safety is an illusion.

 

Riding well is an outlook, and it must come from within an individual rider and not downward from a group leader. The "unsafest" riders are often blissfully unaware of their impact on the group.

 

Do have fun! I don't mean to rain on the parade, so to speak. Just wanted to give you some things to think about from someone who has led many, many group rides and finally found a cure.

 

No rain on this parade, I really appreciate the insight. I've been riding by myself for years, but have only done a couple group rides as a participant. Luckily it was with a group with lots of experience. I kind of fell into the ride leader role with this current group and I am blindly going forward with little to go on. Your guidance is a big help. I figure that if I can glean good info from this board, future rides will be better for myself AND the participants.

 

I want quality in the event, I guess it's a matter of personal pride. Having my head on right about myself and the other riders is a key component to the overall satisfaction I, and the others, have.

 

What you say about safety and other riders is probably true, I just had not thought of it that way. Looking back, the folks I had the most concern about on the first ride were the ones who were most comfortable parading side by side while backing up traffic. Maybe I'll drop them off the e-mail list and just include riders who are more flexible.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

this is a life and death sport we do as individuals on a team.

 

I'm gonna have that lettered on my tail trunk and in mirror image on my windscreen.

 

I too am pretty well cured of the group ride thing. If it gets much bigger than 4 bikes, I'd rather hand out maps, point out where and when the stops will be and then say "See you there".

[russell_bynum]

Yes, one rider left the road, twice! It was lack of experience on his part,

 

Just a comment...

 

Everyone screws up from time to time, and having an inexperienced rider get in over their head trying to keep up is quite common.

 

But...running off the road twice in one ride is not an inexperience problem...it is a mindset problem.

 

After the first time, if the rider has not "Seen the light" and made some drastic changes to ensure self-preservation, then you've got a big problem on your hands.

[MrHondamatic]

Yes, one rider left the road, twice! It was lack of experience on his part,

 

Just a comment...

 

Everyone screws up from time to time, and having an inexperienced rider get in over their head trying to keep up is quite common.

 

But...running off the road twice in one ride is not an inexperience problem...it is a mindset problem.

 

After the first time, if the rider has not "Seen the light" and made some drastic changes to ensure self-preservation, then you've got a big problem on your hands.

 

The first time we figured it was a fluke. After the second time I altered the route in order to get him home alive. Fortunately he decided to head back home a short time later with the only two H-D's in the group. One being his son and the other a PITA I was glad to see bail out.

 

The first time he wasn't trying to keep up, he was the 6th bike in a line of 8 making a very gentle corner at a T intersection. Second time had him about two bikes up and he just wandered off the road, again at low speed. "Houston, we have a problem." There was also some suspicion that he may have tried to steer around the turns, which could have pushed him the wrong way. Both of the riders near him at those times had no clue as to why he did what he did. But overall, inexperience was the big problem and he admitted a distinct lack of it. Needless to say, I was a little unnearved by the whole deal. There were others, who had they laid one down, I would have said they were just pushing too hard and not have second guessed it, but this guy was not in that league. Mid 40's, on a 75 Gold Wing (ill handling at best), with little experience. He was a recipe for disaster. I'm glad it was not worse.

[Tasker]

If someone doesn't want open feedback, they should not ride with me.

 

Yeah, no sh..!

 

Frankly, I've grown to despise group rides consisting of more than a total of three or four riders. And, if I don't know all the riders in the group, I really am not interested in staying with that group. Is this harsh?

 

Whether it's right or wrong, I find myself worrying about the riders in the group I'm in who are less than skilled or experienced and my own ride becomes disengaged and less than fun. I lose concentration for my own ride while watching others.

 

At the same time, I've learned a great deal by riding in groups of skilled riders, skilled more than me, as long as I'm willing to have an open mind and open to suggestions and very harsh criticism (see above ).

 

I have a hard time "drawing that line in the sand" between having fun on my own ride and assuming (probably) too much responsibility for riders in the group I'm in, worrying about them not making the exit or turn, thus getting lost because if I don't stop and wait, no one else will, etc.

[David]

If someone doesn't want open feedback, they should not ride with me.

 

Yeah, no sh..!

 

Well, I haven't finished the list I started going through. We'll finish it next week in Indy over dinner.

[rfc1992]

And, if I don't know all the riders in the group, I really am not interested in staying with that group. Is this harsh?

 

No, it is not harsh. If you recognize you have a limited tempermant for the variing degrees of others' skill, ability, or personality, your choice is wise for all concerned. There are some of us that are (a) very open to criticism and (b) cognizant that it is the rider's responsibility to ride.

 

Whether it's right or wrong, I find myself worrying about the riders in the group I'm in who are less than skilled or experienced and my own ride becomes disengaged and less than fun. I lose concentration for my own ride while watching others.

 

Unless you (a) force someone to join you on a ride or (b) are taking a minor child on your ride, you are not responsible for the decisions others take. The worry likely stems from you... ...being a nice guy? Anyway, I expect nothing from others with respect to my success/failure at a ride. I do, however, learn much from riding with those more skilled than myself. My ability to enjoy a ride, though, is limited if I believe I am hindering others from their all-out fun.

 

At the same time, I've learned a great deal by riding in groups of skilled riders, skilled more than me, as long as I'm willing to have an open mind and open to suggestions and very harsh criticism (see above ).

 

I heartily agree.

 

For the record: To all with whom I ride - I am open to criticism.

 

Group rides are a means to pass on what you know to those of us on the steep end of the learning curve. I am an adequate rider. Like a lot on this board, I endeavour to be more than adequate. When watch another, more skilled, rider enter and exit a turn, I look at their line, body position, relative speed. I don't have to enter/exit at the same speed, but I can mimic their line and relative speed changes.

 

I also try, when joining a group, to remember those behind me. I concentrate on the turns I am working - my first job to assist their safe passage is to insure my own (It is distracting to watch someone lose 'it'). I can slow up on straightaways to make sure they are behind me. I have a map if I have lost the leader (who usually will pick a convenient intuitive stopping point).

 

I am thankful to those that allow me to learn from them. I can read all the motorcycling books there are and not learn as much from an experienced rider on a group ride.

 

Oh well, that's my 2 pennies.

[jodyrevb]

 

. . .

 

Safety is an illusion.

 

. . .

 

 

. . .What a chilling thought. But one I will try never to forget. I hope that I can keep that thought as an underlying theme on each of my rides.

 

Thanks.

[steveknapp]

Whether it's right or wrong, I find myself worrying about the riders in the group I'm in who are less than skilled or experienced and my own ride becomes disengaged and less than fun. I lose concentration for my own ride while watching others.

 

At the same time, I've learned a great deal by riding in groups of skilled riders, skilled more than me, as long as I'm willing to have an open mind and open to suggestions and very harsh criticism (see above ).

 

Tasker, I agree. BUT..if everyone felt as we do there would be no feedback to receive, right? Those with more experience would lothe riding with me...

 

There's got to be a balance somewhere.

[MrHondamatic]

Guys, I want to thank all of you who commented on this topic, you have really given me a lot to think about. I enjoy riding with 3 of these co-workers, we tend to ride alike and have a good time. After the 19th, I will re-evaluate my plans for future rides and may very well limit the "parade" rides to the 4 of us. A larger group may get maps and meeting times as suggested. It would be fun to try that.

 

Again, thanks for the feedback

[roadscholar]

David, That's one of the more insightful things I've read on group riding. Think I'll pass it around at the next exec. committee meeting for our local club. Hope you don't mind being plagiarized.

 

Bill

[Chip]

...After the first time, if the rider has not "Seen the light" and made some drastic changes to ensure self-preservation, then you've got a big problem on your hands...

 

We had a friend crash twice in one day on his VFR. Fortunately, he was okay both times and it only cost him money, pride, and I'm sure some interesting "discussion" with his wife.

 

The good news, is that he no longer rides on the street and has taken up racing on the track. It turns out, he's a pretty darn good rider...just didn't know how (or want) to keep it civilized on public roads.

 

Bill is now sponsored and still crashes occasionally; but it's while racing on a track...a bit more safe.

 

Here's the link to

http://www.mototek.com/aprilia_mototek_Racing_News.htm

 

There are a few pics of Bill on the home page...pretty cool.

 

I'll kid him a bit that when we used to do our spirited riding on the street (with him on his VFR and me on an '88 K100LT) that it was he who did the crashing

[wrestleantares]

I hate group rides. And I mean groups - a couple of friends whose skill level I know well, I do not consider a group.

 

Group rides - especially poker runs and the like - which are heavily populated by weekend warriors scare the crap out of me.

 

I live off of the Blue Ridge Parkway. I ride it and the good old 181 speedway with GREAT regularity. This time of year I make myself a bit more scarce on those roads on the weekends.

 

Invariably I catch up with a flock of wings, or HD's and clones, or see some sportbiker with more balls than brains making the roads dangerous.

 

You see a group of 20-50 bikes pass and I just shudder. There are just too many different skill levels in a group that size.

 

That said. I prefer the weaker riders in the front. While you may not want the weakest rider as the leader, you need a leader that understands and dumbs down his riding for those riders.

 

If you wnat to do spirited riding go by yourself or only with riders that have your same skill set.