You’ll kill yourself if you touch that front brake.

[Paul De]

Yup, I heard that comment today from a guy doing so erosion control work for me.  He’s in his 60s and has ridden since his teens, but not a lot of miles.

 

He had a number of bikes but for the last 10 years rides an HD soft tail.  We were talking bikes a little as he was getting set up on the job site.  Said he was advised to not use the front brake from an experienced old timer. While my brain went WTF, I politely said I disagreed as the front brake is most of the stopping power.   The difference for me  to not be afraid to use it was plenty of practicing.  On my non ABS Kawasaki I used to practice panic stops getting to the point where I could get the front tire to groan and start to howl and modulate to not lock it up.  He was convinced  using the front brake was a fools game and I was asking to die...We left it there.   Guess I am not going to ask if he wants to go for a ride together sometime.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Paul De said:

Yup, I heard that comment today from a guy doing so erosion control work for me.  He’s in his 60s and has ridden since his teens, but not a lot of miles.

 

He had a number of bikes but for the last 10 years rides an HD soft tail.  We were talking bikes a little as he was getting set up on the job site.  Said he was advised to not use the front brake from an experienced old timer. While my brain went WTF, I politely said I disagreed as the front brake is most of the stopping power.   The difference for me  to not be afraid to use it was plenty of practicing.  On my non ABS Kawasaki I used to practice panic stops getting to the point where I could get the front tire to groan and start to howl and modulate to not lock it up.  He was convinced  using the front brake was a fools game and. I was asking to die...We left it there.   Guess I am not going to ask if he wants to go for a ride together sometime.

Afternoon Paul

 

I still ride with a few old farts that think  like that. Seems even more older riders  that think like still ride the dirt. Some we can change over with time & with some with guidance & others will die by that darn rear brake. 

 

Probably why BMW put fully linked brakes on the 1150RT. 

 

I have a good friend that is a motorcycle safety instructor, he does the standard safety classes plus does some private riding instruction. Some of the stories he relates is just short or terrifying. Things like,  afraid of the front brake, afraid of both brakes, afraid to turn,   can't evade a pothole or trash in the road,  just can't get a handle on counter steering, etc. He sees a LOT rider fixation problems & according to him that is a difficult thing to deal with as in lot of cases it doesn't show up until an emergency situation pops up. 

 

The one problem rider that always comes to mind is: he had a rider (claimed they had been riding for over a year), this guy kept complaining of his steering locking up. My friend rode the bike a number of times & found no steering problems. Turns out the guy was trying both counter steer AND steer like  an automobile at the same time  (the steering wasn't locking up, it was his mind & muscles locking up). 

 

I lead a number of off road rides and for those we usually break up into smaller rider groups from advanced (super fast) to moderate (fairly fast but more cautious), moderate slow, & poky. Most of us advanced riders think nothing of doing a long protracted stoppie at 70+ mph on loose dirt or gravel.  That one thing alone probably converts more dirt riders in our group  to use more font brake than anything we can say, show,  or tell them. 

 

We have an old saying in our off-road group-- The front brake is for stopping & the rear brake is for steering. More truth in that statement than most riders think.

 

 

[Hosstage]

I ride with guys that still think that way, that the front brake is a death sentence. I tell them I haven't used the rear brake for the whole day. They still don't get it. They also ride rather slowly, do not run through curves well at all, and short shift their bikes so badly I want to go by and double kick down their shifter to get them into the proper gear.

These are the guys that let their air cooled bikes idle for five minutes to "get them warmed up".

I even know a guy that's running on 13 year old tires because "they look fine." He only puts on about 500 miles a year, so sure, they look fine. I put more miles on in two years than he has in 40 years of "riding". (He also does not use the front brake, it's evil)

I find myself riding solo most of the time...

[beauXjames]

Ha...that's great. I've gone as far as to remove my rear brake entirely on my smaller Ducati...hope I never have to tell that guy. 

[beauXjames]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

 

I lead a number of off road rides ...

 

 

Where are you located @dirtrider? I would love to find a way to get hone my off road skills in your wake...

[Rinkydink]

I rode to my local Honda/Yamaha dealership last Thursday. They’ve been in business since the early 60s. Friends of my family since then also. Originally a HD dealer but went with Honda instead. Called a fool but got the last laugh. 
A guy brought his bike in (by tow truck) due to a 45mph rear blow out to get a new tire. He asked the service manager if he needed a new front tire. I wouldn’t have ridden it to the end of my driveway. 13 lbs PSI in front tire. Scary I say. It takes all kinds. 

[Hosstage]

Oh yeah, forgot about the guy that checked his tires last spring so they should be fine.

[wbw6cos]

If one has to ask about needing a new tire, then they may have to have some sort of training, or re-training.  I wonder if rear tire had similar air pressure that caused it to blow out.  That is pretty scary.  My first clue would be: the bike is hard to roll around the garage with that low pressure.  Just sayin'

[Selden]

3 hours ago, dirtrider said:

I still ride with a few old farts that think  like that. Seems even more older riders  that think like still ride the dirt. Some we can change over with time & with some with guidance & others will die by that darn rear brake. 

 

I started dirt riding late in life, after ~55 years of pavement riding. I'm still unlearning and adjusting. I sometimes wonder if I use the front brake more than I should in the dirt (about the same amount as on pavement; i.e., ~80/20). One big difference is that the front brake on my Yamaha XT225 is underwhelming, so my braking habits probably don't matter much. I have never locked up the front brake on the XT225, nor felt I was even close to doing so, even though it lacks ABS. I'm about to replace the OEM rubber brake line and put in HH pads, which may change things a little.

[Rinkydink]

1 hour ago, wbw6cos said:

If one has to ask about needing a new tire, then they may have to have some sort of training, or re-training.  I wonder if rear tire had similar air pressure that caused it to blow out.  That is pretty scary.  My first clue would be: the bike is hard to roll around the garage with that low pressure.  Just sayin'

The back tire looked like a Metzler Z8 with 17k miles on it without the cords showing. He got his money’s worth out of them I promise. 

[Paul De]

3 hours ago, Selden said:

I started dirt riding late in life, after ~55 years of pavement riding. I'm still unlearning and adjusting.

Never to late to embraced the dirt, and the front brake is still an important part of riding on that surface.  Dirt teaches you a lot about modulating input on the brakes...and throttle. 

[szurszewski]

10 hours ago, Paul De said:

Guess I am not going to ask if he wants to go for a ride together sometime.

 

If you do, let him lead!

[Hosstage]

7 hours ago, szurszewski said:

 

If you do, let him lead!

 

I've let him lead a couple times, it absolutely drives me nuts, I damn near run him over in every curve as he slows so much I don't know how he keeps a line. I don't worry about him running into me because he's usually so far behind that he has more than enough time to stop, he is certainly not caught off guard!

[Jake]

13 hours ago, Selden said:

 

I sometimes wonder if I use the front brake more than I should .

 

Yes, the other swing of the pendulum potentially affecting BMW riders with linked brakes.    I didn't even bother using the rear brake for years until that caught up with me with a vengeance.  Pulling over for a photo op on a friend's FJR in Utah I nearly "layed er down"  on loose rock covering the pullout.  My first clue was that I was not slowing down.  My second clue was the that queasy feeling that comes when your front end starts washing out.  Fortunately, the fear of embarrassment (and many post-crash photos, I was with Gleno mind you) overcame my death grip on the front brake, and I managed to change tactics and stop the bike upright, the way God intended.  I gave Gleno my best "I meant to do that" look behind my helmet.  He gave me his best "You are such a doofus" look behind his.

 

If you don't have much dirt experience and are a committed BMW tarmac rider, please get some time using that rear brake for when you really need it.

 

Sure was a pretty day though.

 

]

[Bill_Walker]

On 6/16/2020 at 12:13 PM, Paul De said:

Said he was advised to not use the front brake from an experienced old timer.

These are the same guys who "had to lay 'er down" because they couldn't stop (and I wonder how many of those did so intentionally, vs. just locking up the rear brake do to poor technique and going down).  There was a time, back in the days of grabby drum brakes, hard tires and unpaved roads, when there _might_ have been some sense in these methods.  With today's bikes, tires and pavement, it's ridiculous.

I wonder if showing these guys video of MotoGP and WSBK racers braking for corners with their rear tires floating above the pavement would change their minds.  Mind you, the rear brake on a cruiser-style bike IS more effective than on other styles of bike, such that it's not rendered useless at maximum braking, but the front brake still has most of the power.

[Bill_Walker]

OTOH, if you're a street rider with very limited dirt experience and you find yourself on a dirt road going into a corner too hot on an unfamiliar non-ABS ADV bike with 90/10 tires, and it's late in the day and you're tired, the front brake might not be your best friend.  DAMHIK.  Lesson learned: braking like you're on pavement when you're on dirt doesn't work out too well.

[Selden]

Yes to all the above. I have always been pretty good about modulating braking and throttle control (if my wife an I bang helmets while riding, I feel I am doing a bad job). So far, I haven't locked up either wheel on dirt, or gone into a turn too fast, but I will be the first to admit that I ride dirt roads like a geezer — which I am. I have no experience with linked brake systems, only ABS, which the XT lacks, of course.

 

I have tried several times to sign up for the MSF dirt bike class at the Honda Rider Education Center in Alpharetta, which is held about 40 miles south of where I live, but have had two classes canceled so far, and had other conflicts for the others. At the moment, it looks like they have shut down due to the pandemic, but I will check again in the fall.

[John Ranalletta]

10 hours ago, Bill_Walker said:

OTOH, if you're a street rider with very limited dirt experience and you find yourself on a dirt road going into a corner too hot on an unfamiliar non-ABS ADV bike with 90/10 tires, and it's late in the day and you're tired, the front brake might not be your best friend.  DAMHIK.  Lesson learned: braking like you're on pavement when you're on dirt doesn't work out too well.

 

I don't ride off pavement much, but, this last week in WI found us on chip 'n seal and gravel roads more than I''d like, especially 2 up.  That said, I try to heed advice given to me long ago.  Let the front tire find it's way by relaxing grip and use the back brake to slow.  Seems to work for me.  That said, I still am hesitant to ride fast on gravel.

[Paul De]

In general having loose arms and wrists and smooth inputs help handling on any surface.  And yes on loose surfaces/gravel I do let the front wonder a bit and not fight it to stay on perfect track.  The years spent dirt riding does have dividends I took to the street. It trained me to not panic if either end of the bike is going off track, or breaking loose, although an understeer (wash out) is the worst feeling and will raise the hair on your neck, but my dirt riding instinct still has me getting my weight up over the the bike and to steer the wheel back under the CG....at the risk of running out wide and into new trouble.  But the goal is to survive that moment and deal with what comes next as a new battle.